Please help, bought used and may have bitten off more than...

Ticking sound Hi everyone, I just bought a used 1999 996 3.4 Carrera 4. I did not get records or have a ppi since I flew in and had to make a quick decision. Well, I'm an impolsive idiot (I know), but rather than discuss "feelings" I'm looking for practical advice on fixing the problem. Here's what I know so far and will have time later today to get in and pull things apart. There is a ticking sound in engine that is most noticible at idle. There is also a bit of white smoke, mainly at startup. Below are two videos showing these too issues. There's also a CEL that reads: p1117, p0139 and p0102. The owner said it through codes due to custom exhaust. Thinking the best of humanity, I believed him. He also "said" that IMS was done at 70k along with other upgrades like intake, body kit, suspension. But who knows... oil level is roughly 2 mm above lower notch of dipstick, within the normal cylinder. Any help from those who know the car is much appreciated. https://youtu.be/zLtAflKljuQ https://youtu.be/PuTCjVNbic4

Here's white white video. You Tube

I'm gonna take a wild guess that this was the c4 from the Internet Car Lot in Omaha? Sounds to me like either a bad lifter (which is probable) or possibly scored cylinder walls. Mine smoked a little on start up as well, if it goes away, thats probably normal. The codes seem to be oxygen sensor related. How does the car drive?

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Ha! Wow you are observant. Yeah, it's that car. I LOVE the car so no complaints there. The car drives wonderfully, just amazing actually. But I feel like I just rescued a dog and trying to determine it's history based on it's personality. I am just so scared of that bore scoring and something catastrophic, but I drove it 600 miles and zero issues other than tick sound and this smoke. If I can somehow know it's nothing catastrophic, I'm elated with the purchase. But I don't trust mechanics so I don't want to bring it in. More than likely they'll just tell me to spend more money than I can afford and it will be wrong. Mechanics have swindled me before, that's why I do all the work on my cars. ​​​​

Take it to a respected Indy that knows these cars. Smoke during startup could be many things including oil has been overfilled. Ticking could be Lifter / Scored Cylinder walls / Exhaust Leak, etc. My 02 C4 was throwing similar codes referencing O2, running rich, etc, at the end it was a loose vacuum line. Let them confirm the problem and take it from there.

I'm with pcasanova - get it looked at by an independent shop. With any used car, I'd also baseline fluids and filters before you start putting the miles on it.

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How did you know what car this is? You are observant! I just sent a reply but for some reason I don't see it showing up here. Car runs great, really an amazing car--love it! But I'm also apprehensive and the wife is stressed since she doesn't care about cars, so I'm battling my fear of something catastrophic with the engine (based on all the posts regarding bore scoring, etc) and trying to assure the wife that we got a good deal on the car. Lol...probably the issue with many Porsche owners.

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Ill do that today. I'm also going to call around to shops where the car fax report shows it was owned, see if I can track done some service records on the car.

Should I also swap out the water pump? The miles are near 90k, and it seems like that is a 30k maintenance schedule? Also planning on new plugs. Anything else?

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P0102 Mass air flow sensor P0139 Oxygen sensor after catalytic converter P1117 Oxygen sensor heating To fix codes: Clean/Test/Replace MAF Confirm Wiring/Replace O2 sensor Smoke: Could be AOS, bore scoring, etc. I'd start with a manometer test to confirm AOS is OK. If so, drop the sump and scope the bores. I can't play video at the moment. Ticking could be lots of things.

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Code P0102 is mass airflow sensor, air mass below limit. Make sure MAF is plugged in, no short circuit to ground, or your MAF is bad, and replace your air filter element. [I got the wrong code - ignore this - Code P0117 is type 2 or type 3 engine temperature (coolant) sensor. Open circuit or below limit. This sensor is in the bottom of the coolant overflow tank.] TexSquirrel is right, P1117 is the O2 sensor heating circuit in bank 1. Could be too high, too low, open circuit, too high resistance. You need to troubleshoot. Code P0139 is bank 1 o2 sensor after catalyst. Implausible signal from o2 sensor. Could be the aftermarket exhaust, or could be a shot o2 sensor. Probably the same as the above. You'll want a manual - Bentley is good, Alldata is my newest find (thanks to another Rennlister) - subscription based, but great info.

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I would.

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You'll never enjoy a 996 if you let it stress you out. Put the worry beads away. It's just a car, and everything is fixable. Maybe start with reading the FAQ, digging into the forum and reading a lot, buying a few books - Bentley is a decent shop manual. The Wayne Dempsey 101 projects book will give you lots of ideas. Adrian Streather's 996 Essential Companion is also a good reference/read. It'll be fine.

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+1 I also second having someone who truly knows the M96 look and listen to it.(and bore scope it) I listened to the video, and it does sound like a lifter, but according to The expert on these engines, many times bore scoring is misdiagnosed as a bad lifter.

Does the engine tick like it does in the video after it is completely warmed up? Or does it change? If so, what does it sound like cold and then again warm?

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The video with the ticking is after the engine warmed up, still present most notably at idle. To hear the ticking when engine is cold, watch the video with white smoke and you can hear the ticking once engine returns to lower rpm.

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You all are the best. Thank you for the suggestions. I plan to do the routine maintenance and drop the sump plate before having another mechanic look at it. I just to get to know her (car) a bit and see if I can narrow it down (with your help of course . If after: fluid changes, changing plugs, cleaning oil sump, MAF, and possibly changing O2 sensors; if it doesn't have any effect, then I'll bring it in. I did drive it to work this morning (10 miles) and man...honestly...no words to describe how amazing these cars are. We above all my expectations. However, if my wife is too stressed over a car, it sucks but I might have to sell the wife .

I wouldn't casually drive the car sounding like that... not anywhere near normal operation sound. Take it to the shop, not a quick easy shade tree mechanic fix.

Did you buy this car as a toy or your only DD?

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I have another car, but would like to take this out a couple times a week.

That sounds like a loud and low knock, so I wouldn�t think it would be a lifter, but rather, something bigger and heavier, such as a rod knocking or piston slap. I agree about taking it to a shop that knows these cars. I wouldn�t rule out a cat converter or muffler issue, just in case something is knocking inside the tins.

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Watch Jake Raby's Youtube video (Rennvision by The Knowledge Gruupe) on pre-qualification steps. Follow how he says to drop the sump plate, otherwise you might miss small bits in the sump. Also, follow everything he says to do to pre-qualify the car for an IMS replacement. If your car passes them all, it's good to go! If you can work on your car yourself, you will save a lot of money, and have a lot of fun. ...in fact watch all of Jake's videos. He has a good one on bore scoring so you know what's what.

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Nice! I hope to do most of my own work. I always find it so rewarding and intimate when I can fix a car. You get to know it and appreciate various engineering aspects you wouldn't know if you just took it in. Plus, I can't afford dealership prices, so there's that !

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996s seem to be slowly appreciating, so factor that in when you think about which one to sell.

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Glad to hear.

I tracked down the service records over last several years and the IMS was done at 72k miles in 2014. The latest service shows brake fluid done last year and the tranny rebuilt.

Bad water pump? Here's a better video. I think the water pump is bad and possibly a Piston? What's the accessory attached to drive belt on the top passenger side? I'm hoping it's that and not anpiston slap. I'll post with that video after this one.

Hope it's something reverberating through to the passenger side and not the actual Piston. Again, drives just fine without loss of power. The smoke seems to be water vapor. Can anyone tell me what that means? It is rather cold outside with temps in the teens (�F). Ticking on passenger side

I'm no mechanic but to my un-trained ears that tick sounds like something might be rattling rather than the engine ticking I could be completely wrong. Thats a lot of smoke though and agree with everyone - have it inspected, personally wouldn't drive it either.

Does it matter which water pump I buy? There are quite a few options online with the more expensive ones featuring a metal wheel. Suggestions?

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Yes, OEM only - I recommend you do not buy the metal wheel one it can destroy your block

Sounds like you got one of the rare 996 diesels! In all seriousness, that ticking is too loud to be the water pump. As others have suggested, take it to a knowledgeable shop for diagnosis. Worst case is it is piston slap due to advanced bore scoring. Best case is it's exhaust plus a bad AOS. Consider the trip to the specialist to be a PPI (post purchase inspection). ​​​​​

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You Tube Good idea. But isnt that why we havehforums, so we dont all spend money having to bring it in? I did call the shop and they will get me in after the holiday. Oil filter inspection doesn't appear to pick up any metal bits, but there does seem to be plastic/rubber shavings. See video. https://youtu.be/PhJ7bbIqCGI

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I'd say yes and no, you unfortunately need a diagnosis first - then you can attempt a forum guided fix! We have fingers crossed for you it's minor and doesn't require invasive surgery. I'd check the exhaust though - also that bumper looks aftermarket being a MK1 Carrera 4 - maybe take it off and check out whats going on under it - might as well replace the O2 sensors if you're getting a code. One less thing for the mechanic to tell you about.

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It's just very difficult to diagnose issues over the internet. Reasonable probably we will get it wrong and you will spend money on parts unnecessarily. Plastic pieces are from the chain guide pads. It's normal to see a few. Eventually, they will need to get replaced due to the timing getting off.

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I fully agree about getting it checked out, just a little afraid. Good news about fillter! Having trouble getting the new one on the pipe. Is it suppose to smash on? I bought an stp S8278XL, the one that came up on parts store computer...hoping it's just the heat and pipe needs to cool down a bit before sliding on...never mind...pushed it on.

Drop the sump before you put oil back in it!

Fabspeed exhaust should not cause CEL. Check the O2 sensor wiring and replace O2 if necessary. I would do that before taking the car in since you have some time. Yep, drop the sump yourself. Jake Raby shows how to do it in his pre-inspection video. You'll need a 50ml tube of Loctite 5900 flange sealant. Amazon Amazon Don't overdo the sealant, if it gets squeezed off inside it can start to clog the oil pickup.. Let it cure for 24 hours before you add the oil.

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My advise is not to spend a dime on anything until you solve that ticking issue. If you do, you will throw good money after bad and the result will be thousands of dollars of money and you�ll end up with a car that still ticks. I cannot tell you how many posts I�ve read where people replace the lifters thinking that�s the cause and then the car still makes the same noise. Question: is you oil pressure alway 4.8 bar at cold start? What is the oil pressure at idle with the AC off and idle RPM being at 650?

If you suspect a drive belt item as whats making the noise, remove the serp belt (which is easy) and start the car. That will atleast rule out drive belt components as the noise. only run it for a minute or two. With no belt you have no water pump or alternator.

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Once warm it drops to just above 1 bar. Maybe 1.5. I'm bringing the car in tomorrow to have it scoped and compression tested. Question, they quoted me 2.5 hours just to remove plugs. Am I missing something here? They said it's standard for everywhere. How does a professional mechanic take 2.5 hours to remove plugs? The whole inspection will end up costing $300-$400, just to diagnose. The thing that bothers me is the mechanic already assumes blown head or scoring, without hearing or seeing the vehicle, all because I said there was white smoke.

doing plugs on these engines is not a lot of fun. 2.5 hours may be on the higher side, but having just done a set on a boxster (similar ordeal), its a pain. everything is in the way. whats even more fun is removing the header bolts that are likely seized and rusted.

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as a mechanic i can answer that easily. It wont take 2.5 hours. Maybe an hours tops. But book time is book time. Some times we can do the job faster, some times we get screwed. But the way it works is the customer gets charged by the book. as for the assumption of a head gasket, that is only an assumption based on your conversation to give himself a diagnostic direction to take. That car will tell him what he needs to know based off of testing. You (the customer) simply gave him a road to travel down

Agree that the smoke looks more like steam than burnt oil, which will not dissipate as quickly. It's highly unlikely you have cracked heads on BOTH banks at the same time (smoke comes out from both exhaust) so my guess is coolant ingestion somewhere at the air intake. Could be the throttle body sucking in coolant via a failed AOS. Re the MAF, it could be because of the K&N air filter setup. Re the O2 sensor codes, you need some new sensors. Re the knocking noise, if it's not a loose cat, it could be bore scoring or a stuck lifter.

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Take note, Ahsai knows his stuff! These need to be scoped from the bottom up. Head gaskets almost never fail on these engines...$300-400 ain't going to cut it. You bought a project and it's going to cost some money (expect $5K to get it up to snuff) don't drive it until you know what you 're dealing with.

If once you get the car checked out & it's not something catastrophic, do yourself a favor & bin that K&N intake and put the stock box back on. Ask me how I know

So I am confused, you bought this car while making this noise? I hope you got it really cheap because that sounds more like a knock than a tick and thats not good. Did you remove the serpentine belt and see if the noise goes away? I doubt it but its worth a shot. I feel for you and I fear your wife instincts may be correct, this seems like a bad buy. Lastly are you taking this to just any mechanic, or a known local shop that works on Porsche. The fact he is thinking head gaskets tells me ( and probably most on the forum) he isn't familiar with these cars. Smoke could be blow by if the noise is from piston slap (bore score) or it could be a bad AOS. There are just so many scenarios that you really need to have a qualified tech look at it.

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Yep! If you've been doing this a while you usually beat book time, sometimes you don't. That's the challenge of working flat rate. I almost always beat book time, especially on jobs I've done before. Each subsequent time you do a certain repair on a specific yr/make/model you're normally a bit faster.

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agreed. I was trying to be nice so it dosent seem like us mechanics screw everyone like some always think. The times that you dont meet book time are more like broken fastners or when the **** hits the fan. Hardly happens but when it does you just hate life sometimes.

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Now that I provide free labor, beating book time is not as critical as it used to be. Also, now I spend a lot more time talking with and explaining how things work with the car owners. (well the ones who are interested that is) I'm normally in no hurry to get them out the door so that I can jump onto the next car. Most customers seem to not mind how long it takes to get their car fixed. I don't work many days, and my family's schedule gets in the way. But I let them know up front how long it will take. I also have several people working for me who are learning how to work on cars. That makes it take a lot longer too.

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props to ya. It nice to hear other people who do good work and give back to the community. Finding good techs now a days is hard.

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Thanks, it's a great way to minister to people and help them out. I really enjoy doing it. I also enjoy teaching people how to work on cars.

To all the mechanics, I did not mean to imply anything shady by the shop. In fact, even after the quoted starting price I was still going to use them, but then I found a recommended mechanic on other part of town. But know this, while on my cars I do most of my own work, there is a mechanic down the road whom I have more respect for than anyone, trust him fully. I asked him to look at the Porsche but he said to try out this other guy where the car is now. Left it with him and he's going to go through it. By the way, I changed the oil last night and today the CEL went off and stayed off the whole way to the Indy (~25 miles). Question, I've driven this car for over 700 miles now with zero issues other than a ticking sound. The thing is so incredibly fast and powerful. If the problem was scoring or head, shouldn't I notice something? Yet I don't notice anything--feels like a brand new engine, nice and tight. Anyway, the Indy who has it now when he saw the smoke he said that was normal to see when the temps drop this low. When I took the above video last night, the car was outside and it was about 8�F. I'll post again if he finds anything.

Keep us posted...

From my own reading most report ticking without performance issues. So just to clarify, you bought the car with the ticking and the smoke or that came after the purchase? Also just a thought - are the cold temps perhaps exacerbating the smoke? Either way my tip is definitely try to make sure the indy has experience with a 996...

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Why, does that matter? Either way there is a ticking noise.

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I'm just curious, although not telling us the full story doesn't really help. Anyway feel free not to share anything you're not comfortable sharing.

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The reason I asked is because if you heard this noise you must have asked the PO, what did he say?

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I ended up getting a little knocked off...or should I say "ticked" off to not jinx myself . Im learning it's a gamble, one that has big upside or big downside...time will tell. But I figure, if you're going to own a 911, you better be a bit of a risk taker.

You asked the questions, why get "knocked off" when we are trying to figure out what you have going on. I gave you some sound advice, did you remove the belt to see if the noise was a fully or tensioner?

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No not yet. After the oil change it was too late and had work in the morning. Wait, what do you mean "knocked off?" I was attempting to use humor, but I realize that can be difficult to write out. Please don't misinterpret me, I appreciate all the help/suggestions.

Got you, sounded as if you were getting upset about myself and another poster asking if you bought it sounding like this. I am really curious as to what the previous owner alleged the noise was?

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Ahh, I see. He said it has never been a problem. I also tracked down service records for the past 5 years and it's been kept up with service checks, IMS update and new tranny. Plus a bunch of other upgrades.

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I may have been defensive. And dumb in the purchase... But I do love the car, but sometimes that can cast blinders over you too.

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New transmission, or new clutch? A whole new trans is not very common on these cars.

Did he say how long its been doing that? If its cylinder score it could function for years without an issue, but with that amount of smoke I would think you will be consuming a lot of oil. My concerns he got the last few good years out of it with the problem and now its towards the end. ( I hope not just my train of thought at this time) I seriously hope its nothing major.

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I don't see it on the service record but it was probably done at a different shop. I was told a rebuilt transmission, whatever that means...

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No. And I spoke to the shop where the car has been serviced for the last several years and there is no note regarding any ticking sound. The vehicle was well maintained at the same shop for many years with inspections done a couple times per year.

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You didn�t, by chance, use wide open throttle during a test drive or after taking possession on the car when the engine was cold, did you?

haven't watched the video and engine sounds on video can be exaggerated anyway.. but i'll throw in my $.02.. chain tensioners. My personal experience. There are 3, 2 easy to get to, and one...not.. up behind the PS pump. I bought all 3, have replaced 2 to date and noticed much improvement. my experience is buying a VERY high mileage early 99 C2 back in February. only docs I had were the IMS, clutch and motor mounts, and a replaced SAI pump years before. Test drive was stellar and I was off. Next day I pulled the plugs and replaced them (easy for my car since it had no mufflers blocking..just FabSpeed bypass tips) changed the oil and checked the filter, replaced the water pump, tstat and 90% of the coolant hoses..and immediately took it on a 800 mile round trip to Werks Reunion in FL. Since then the tensioners, KONIs and built a few new exhausts. Put 12k on it so far and not holding back. Best of luck.. just take a deep breath and dig in. Make a list. Feels good when you check things off. YMMV.. I got lucky admittedly

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Dude it's up to you but if you've got that sound, and you might have piston slap or something worse, why are you checking out how powerful the car is. I'd be driving it gingerly AF until I knew what was going on. The last thing I want to hear is the mechanic tell me that because of high stress/high revs, something is worse than it would have been otherwise. Wait til it's all sorted, then you can confidently get a feel for the car without messing it up further. I guess if you already need a rebuild or a new engine, messing up the current one further won't matter...

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Well, it could get worse and end up with a permanent oil drain. i.e. Rod thru case. For now, enjoy the holidays and family, let the mechanic do their thing. Give them time with the car. Just curious, but what city are you in?

OP - what folks are trying to tell you is these engines tend to feel great - right up until the moment they don't. It is rare on these boards to see "car feels low on power", "car has sluggish throttle", "car isn't pulling as strongly as before" types of threads. Fairly common to see 'Engine quit out of nowhere", "Car died while driving," type of threads. These cars having a very narrow range of failure symptoms is part of what gives people the level of caution that you're seeing in this thread. Answer to your question on bore scoring symptoms- yes you will see more symptoms the worse it gets. High oil consumption, smoke on startup, slapping sound from bottom end being the most prevalent, and you have two of those three. I would also encourage you to ask your mechanic to do a bore scope, it shouldn't cost too much money... in the grand scheme of things.

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Could have not said it better.

Looks like a few small scratches in #4...the cel seems like it was due to poor connection to the #6 coil pack. I cleaned all the wires and connections, cleaned iac, maf and filter. Changed oil and it's running great with no cel but there is the tick so we will see how long #4 lasts and if it gets worse or runs for awhile... Here's a photo of the scoring up towards the bottom of cylinder. I don't think their bore scope was the best but it did show some scoring.

I don�t see any scoring in that photo. Also keep in mind cylinders can show normal wear without it being bore scoring. How was the #6 cylinder?

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He ruled out the others, said the sound was coming from number 4 using a stethoscope. He ran a compression test on all cylinders and they were good. I agree though, doesn't seem like concrete proof. There was also some minor leaking of tranny fluid (is that normal?) And I also noticed the area near the rms displayed wet oil. In regards to the smoke, it does not seem like anything too out of the ordinary. And if any smoke was caused by a Piston, wouldn't it come through only one pipe? Or does the fabspeed exhaust send it through both? Plus, the smoke is just water vapor and goes away after engine warms up above ~100�.

IIdont know. .the more I drive it, the more I'm convinced this is just how a 20 year car sounds. I mean, if there is anything wrong with it I just can't tell... I understand people say that it will just stop running, but that can be true with any car, right? Sure runs smooth and as soon as you hit 4k rpm, see ya ! I'm just going to enjoy the heck out of this thing. If it dies, then I'll deal with that if/when the time comes.

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Oh gosh no. I would never do that, especially with a vehicle I was planning on buying. A rental...well...no comment.

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You might be right. Even though the tech said Piston slap in #4, it just doesn't seem right to me. I've spent a lot of time underneath and while it could be Piston slap, it doesn't have that tone to it. It's way more of a tick than a knock, but maybe it's the amount of scoring. The bore scope he used to check scoring was not very conclusive in my opinion. Not sure even a radiologist could make heads or tails of it. Then again, I am pretty sure I'm living in denial...yeah, pretty sure I'm in denial and I bought a lemon, got screwed...it's Piston slap.

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Youre awesome for helping people learn. I�m semi taught through school, with YouTube, and experimenting on my old cars and doing installs and uninstalls at junk yards for hours before attempting on my own car. Luckily I�ve been able to do all the work to my car and with patience and soft touch I�ve been able to do most. Plugs took me 3 hours first time and I was super nervous, now takes me 30 minutes, easier especially now that I�m running muffler delete pipes. Need more people like you in California!

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These cars are great. I love my 996, and it satisfies all my 21 year old needs and it�s my Daily. I would still keep looking into that noise tho. Last thing you want is for the car to die on you because you neglect it after a while. But for now, enjoy that bad boy.

Oil coming out between the engine and transmission could be rear main seal or IMS flange and/or bolts. Hard to know which unless you separate them and look.

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All of which should be addressed asap.

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Denial or not, I�d get a second opinion from someone really knowledgeable and very experienced with the M96/M97 engines. Maybe ask around at your local PCA for who people think is a trusted independent mechanic?

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I couldn't agree more, sounds like this mechanic is not a "Porsche" mechanic. I hate to sound like a Debbie downer but that engine sounds bad, its a knock not a tick if you ask me. I can assure you this is not how any engine should sound at any age. I understand you want it to be nothing, but in the long run ignoring it is going to cost you more money. Kind of like ignoring a bill collector, you want them to go away but they don't. That interest keeps racking up and years later when you want to buy a house you realize you would have been better off addressing it years ago. (Not me, I just see it all the time lol)

So what's the plan, keep driving it into the ground or park it?

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Good question. Giving this one to the Lord. I did call the dealership who said they would get back to me on Friday...we'll see. Then I'm either going to drive it till it dies, park it and save for rebuild (thinking of calling LN?) or see about selling it but not sure what it's worth ifiit needs a rebuild. What would everyone here do? Wife wants me to get rid of it so I might trade it in or sell it but I just think I'll take a huge hit. While I really love the car, I regret buying it and being thrown into this position. The guy who got rid of it knew what was going on and was dishonest, that's for sure. While it's tempting to play by the same shady, unethical rules as these scum bags, I'm not willing to jeopordize my own integrity and do something against my God.

Tough call. If it truly is suspected of a shot engine, then it is basically a �roller� and you can expect bottom dollar prices for it: $4-8k seems to be the current range. Assuming you paid a lot more than that for it, you�d be taking a huge financial hit to sell it as a roller. You don�t have much more to lose financially by just driving it, and rolling the dice on something more catastrophic. If you have bore scoring, I think you are in new piston and resleeve territory. I suspect that a Flat Six Innovations engine is probably going to run you what you have into the car again (I�m making a lot of assumptions here), and you�re likely looking at a waiting list (a recent poster said he was offered a June �19 window, for example). If it was me, I�d just drive it. Selling it to someone else (or trading it in) with known problems isn�t cool. Lots of people do it, but it is against my personal ethics.

Just a word of advice from someone happily married for 36 years. It's highly advisable that you never let your wife know how much your Porsche costs you! Any discussions of what is going on should only be done when you know everything about the outcome, and bringing it to her attention is unavoidable. For instance, I would tell my bride NONE of all that is being discussed here, at least not at this point. She should be blissfully happy that you have the car of your dreams. Too late now of course, but keep it in mind for the future. Just my 2 cents. Truly hope it works out for you.

Find out what's wrong and report back. I bought mine as a roller and then sourced a used lower mile engine that so far has worked out really well.

What did you pay? That would play into the decision I would think. Also the advice of not telling you wife everything seems poor to me, she already pissed lying to he probably won't help. Tell her the truth, work through it together, fix the car and enjoy it together.

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15k

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Are you married? This is an unnecessary stress I can handle. While I agree to be completely honest with your spouse, there is no reason pputting this on her plate. I know her and she would rather not know if this is not something she can fix.

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Fully agree. I haven't told her about any potential engine problems, especially since I'm not fully convinced it is Piston slap. Probably is, but there is still the possibility it's the tensioner or possibly one of the accessories. There is nothing she can do about this and I would never place unnecessary stress on her plate. I know her and she wouldn't want this either.

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Been there, done that, doesn't work--i agree!

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15k is good, if you did have to put 7-10k into it worst case you are only 22-25k into it. And been with the same girl, happily, for 16+ yrs .

I feel your pain I bought a 2002 and one week after blow up the engine and it took me two weeks before openly came with the true to my wife and there�s no easy way to let her know you need and additional $10,000.00 and claiming there was not a warning sign before it went kaboom.

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Agreed, the more work you can do yourself the better.

Can someone tell me how to check the timing chain pads and tensioner? I've been giving this car a lot of thought and listening carefully to the engine, and it seems like it's not a scored cylinder...more like clicking of a chain in rythm with the turning of engine. I also noticed that when I first start the car, the engine sounds perfect. However, after maybe 30 seconds the initial rpm settle down then the ticking starts. I'm wondering if maybe the timing chain starts out tight then slackens some after it warms up a bit? Anyone know about this?

You Tube I advise you get the proper tools and a good workshop manual before attempting anything. Sign up at Pelican Parts and read all the tech/how to articles. We're all here to help as best we can but it's really just a guessing game via computer. Cam locking tools are a must before touching tensioners. We have a tool loaner program too. I wish you the best of luck traveling down the rabbit hole! https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/996_tech.htm

I picked up one of these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MQMRHJ4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MQMRHJ4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 It is decent quality and was the cheapest I could find other than eBay. There is a good review(under questions) too. Oops, I just noticed it didn�t have camshaft locks. My camshaft locks came with my LN IMS tool I got from here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-Box...EAAOSwzppaRaeZ

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wouldn't a proper Durametric scan get you deveationn numbers to diagnose, be easier $? I would be reaching out to local enthusiasts to find best shop with proper tools and specific porsche m96 experience. good luck. 15k is a lot of $, but in the end its money.

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No way to check the tensioners, replacing them is the only option (that I know of). However, its unlikely to be your issue. Typically tensioner failure is easiest heard right on start up where the combination of grooved tensioner paddles and bad/leaky tensioner causes a chain rattle fist thing when you start the engine. I have been wrong many times before though. You'll have to pull off the valve covers and inspect the guides individually. More than likely, they'll have some wear. When I dropped my sump, I noticed brown and black plastic bits (large enough to be concerned). The brown plastic remains are from cam chain guides, black are from IMS guide. To get to the IMS guide, the whole engine is coming apart. I had to essentially rebuild my engine for a $7 part.

So the ticking starts after 30 seconds, either when cold or hot, correct? And does it tick when driving it or at higher RPM?

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Tough to say. I drove about 5 miles today, didn't hear the tick or see any smoke while driving or at a stop light but there is smoke starting when cold. However, serious misfires going on. The car never misfired before taking it to see the mechanic. He said the connectors to the coil pack where bad, the pigtails things. But never showed any problem like this. Here's another video, again with loud ticking and with rev. Car behaves like a ghost is driving it. Video is after it warmed up: https://youtu.be/30c_zsYHqUs Ghost rev, ticking, coughing, car is sick

Admittedly, it has been a while since I took the oil cap off while running, but I don�t recall that much vaccum. Do you have the instruments to measure vaccum? May be a sign of failing or failed air oil separator (aos), which can cause smoking... https://www.pelicanparts.com/techart..._Separator.htm

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No, I don't have the tools but will see if local parts store rents them. What is the pressure suppose to be?

It is at the link I shared above: �Normal crankcase pressure, measured at the oil filler cap ranges from about 4-7 inches of water (drill a hole in the top of an old oil filler cap and attach the gauge there). When the air-oil separator fails, the intake manifold vacuum will draw into the crankcase and the levels will reach 9-12 inches or more.�

That sounds like a stuck lifter or bore acoring. I think you should take the car back to the shop and let them sort out the misfire and apparent air leak first and go from there. I assume you already have an oil change. If so, what oil? Once the misfire is fixed and crankcase vacuum checked out, I would just drive it a few months and see what happens. If it's bore scoring, there isn't a remedy short of a rebuild anyway.

I feel for you but that engine sounds like it�s shot. If you love the car, fix the coils and drive it until it grenades, hopefully giving you enough time to save up for a new motor. If you don�t love it, I�d sugggest cutting your loses and getting rid of it. Tough lesson learned, but getting a PPI is a must when buying these cars.

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I missed your previous post, thank you for clarifying. I'll buy the tool today and run that test. Who do you all recommended calling about a rebuild in the Midwest USA? I'm thinking if it also needs a rebuild, rather than potentially replacing all these parts to get it running only to break down again that I might just get the rebuild done and then sell it. Sounds like either way I am taking a loss but also thinking I can sell it for more with the rebuild? Any idea? It's got 93k on odometer, but the body is in good shape. If I get it rebuilt by a good company, does that add a lot of value? If I bout it for 15k, what's the best way to cut my losses? Also, does a rebuild add horespower? Just spitballing here, not even 100% sure it needs a rebuild but fairly confident it does...

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Yup! Lesson learned, the hard way. I do enjoy the car immensly, so I am thinking rebuild and the resale after rebuild might result in similar loss financially? If I'm out 6-8k dollars, I might rebuild and hope to cut that to 3-5k? Bout it for 15k, if rebuilt for 12-15k, could I resell it for 24-27k? Or is that wishful thinking?

Wishful thinking. Your best bet is to fix it and enjoy it for many years...Do you have a budget to work with right now? If you're just trying to cut your loses, sell it now! Full disclosure to buyer and you might get $8-10K for it.

Im guessing the skip is attributed to bore scoring, fluids traveling past the rings and fouling out the plug.

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depending on the rebuild, it may either attract more buyers or push some away. It seems that the Flat6 rebuilds tends to fetch a premium, while lesser known rebuilds scare people away...? at least what I've seen. Either way, figure a perfectly running 996 is worth 17-18K with higher mileage. regardless of what the rebuild costs, I dont see the value drastically rising unless you go LN cylinders and all that. Alternatively, you could ditch the m96 engine all together for something really fun/reliable/fast...most on this board will probably disagree, but the LS option makes the most sense to me.

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The LS option will cost $30K (to have Renegade do it) unless you can do the work yourself and source a good used motor. I've looked into it...

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I wouldnt let renegade do my oil change, much less do the swap for 30K. its true, the initial cost may be higher than a low budget rebuild, but its no where near 30K if you can be resourceful. It shouldnt even cost 15K (and I paid someone to do the work). I wont turn this thread into a "ls vs rebuild", but in my opinion its the best bang for buck option for these cars.

Glad it worked for you. I wonder what the resale value would be? Always good to know al options...

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I would guess low to mid 20's right now on a swapped 996. I guess that would really depend on how bad the buyer wanted it.

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I feel like without excessive levels of speculation and hyperbole this question is impossible to answer accurately. Your challenge is that there are a lot of 996's available for a wide range of prices. An uneducated buyer is probably not going to see the value in the rebuild when they can buy a "good car that hasn't blown up" (yet), and an educated buyer will scrutinize your rebuild decisions with the car to get a better price. I think you should really just keep the car and keep enjoying it while it dies a slow death and save up for your own rebuild in the future. That - or sell it now. Trying to "lose less money" by putting more money into this deal is going to be a terrible rabbit hole to fall down.

I think the same Ahsai, I would say lifters usually rattle first thing in the morning with a cold engine then go away quite quickly as oil thins down and they get refilled, if the engine ticks or knocks when it's hot, either a lifter really has given up 100 percent and just won't hold any oil or it's bore scoring probably number six, what about pulling the plugs , if there's a bad cylinder won't the plug be oiling up compared to the others, I also think you need a better bore scope examination , the OP needs to research a good Indy through a local porsche club or something , it needs to be someone familiar with working on the M96 engine , I've seen examples of bore scoring when I was in at Hartech having some work done on my engine during my rebuild and I'm sure you would see it on the borescope, the damage is quite extensive when they start to knock or slap, amassing they still run like that really!!

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I rented a bore scope and will post this evening what I see. Just curious, I noticed on Amazon a number of scopes you hook up to the phone that go for like $15-$20 bucks. Anyone tried one of those? Seems like a handy thing to add to the shop at that price...

WonByOne, where do you live? Just interested. If we knew and were close by, maybe somebody could help. The engine noise you posted is the exact same noise that my daughter's Hyundai Elantra has.....with only 53K miles. I finally found a video where a guy shows it is bore scoring after tearing it apart. The 2011-16 Elantra engines have the same failure mode as the 996! I'm not saying it's bore scoring, but after hearing my daughter's car "tick of death" when she was home from college this weekend, all of this make sense to me now. I changed the oil on her car and found a bunch of aluminum debris in the oil.....but funny thing is that none of it was in the oil filter. If you are interested, here is a short video of the ticking (it sounds just like yours in person), but with the Elantra, you can hear it during acceleration, but not deceleration, I do not know if the 996 has the same symptom, but yours sounds all the time. What is common with all of these engines having bore scoring? Cold weather! Just like the 996. They are now replacing short blocks under warranty in Canada....but not in the US yet. You Tube

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The knocking sound is similar to when I had a stuck lifter. Ahsai diagnosed that correctly and gave the same advice. Best of luck.

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I didn't get to check on the cylinders today like I wanted to. I cleared the CEL with p1117 and p0139. Pretty sure the crazy idling is due to the O2 sensors on bank 1, so I have up&down Bosch on the way. Also ordered a new aos and a water pump. Now as for the ticking...well, clearing the codes made it seem like the tick was much less, but it could be my wishful thinking. I also played around with the car and noticed that Everytime I get above 1500 rpm the tick is gone. Not that it fades away, but it seems like it's gone. Then as the rpms come down, it slowly starts up again. Weird, huh? It's almost like the load or pressure in the engine from high rpm makes it go away, and it's always at the exact same rpm...that's what's weird to me. In other words, the tick is there at say 1499 (this is just an example) then at 1500 it's gone. Then when it gets back down to 1499 it kicks in again...very precise. This, btw, is giving me a ray of hope. Based on the YouTube videos, mine doesn't sound the same as the Piston slap. But of course I'll know more after I scope things out..

Don't want to get your hopes up but if the ticking goes away and doesn't rise in frequency with revs it may be that as the oil pressure increases the lifter is pressurising then as the engine falls back to idle and the pressure drops it deflated again , either way your probably looking at taking the engine out, it's not so bad to take out and makes everything a whole lot easier , just be careful you don't spend $$$$$$ by the thousand to just get a diagnosis and it's very important to get a good shop if your not doing the work yourself as you will be in a situation where your engine is out and partly dismantled and your at a shop that's not doing it for you , then no one else will want to take on a half started job invade the first shop has caused more problems or damage, these engines are not hugely hard to work on but you need the knowledge of there characteristics , how to work on them and the known failure modes as they can confuse an inexperienced shop. If you have bought a borescope then that's good, remove the sump plate and scope into the cylinders from below, put each piston to the top of its stroke so as much of the vote underneath as possible is on view, turn the engine by using a wrench on the main crank bolt to rotate, CLOCKWISE ONLY, have a good look at number 6 which is the right hand bank and the nearest cylinder towards the front of the car as this is the one that usually goes , the scoring will be on the thrust faces where the piston skirt runs up the bore so the top of the cylinder where it faces up to the sky and the bottom facing the floor , the sides don't usually get damaged, hope this helps and keep posting, there are a lot of good people on here who know their stuff and will help you as much as they can. Good luck

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The ticking does rise in frequency with revving up until roughly 1500 rpms when out of gear. As for borescoping from oil sump, I am confused, I've always scoped from the plug hole at BDC. How do you scope from the oil sump? I can't find a write up on that. Thank you!

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You need to scope from below the piston. Bore scoring is worse usually at the bottom of cylinder at BDC. The piston will be in the way at BDC if you scope from above.

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With all due respect, please step back from throwing $ at and read up on 'bore scoring'. Lots of good info and videos out there. Really, I wish you the best outcome.Take your time and use patience.

You can go in through the sump there is a window in the cast where you can scope through , I've attached some photos of my old block below as a demo but there will be the crank and ladder casting holding the crank and rods in there too which I've not got in the picture but there are gaps you can get through don't think it's the easiest thing might need a bit of time and patience photo364.jpg photo868.jpg

I have an amazon scope attachment but have not used it yet. Should work well and worth the investment to have for most any blind spot on the motor. On a side note, do we have OP's first name, should we just call you Juan?

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I would go back and double check the noise isn�t in the exhaust system. It�s probably not, but you�d be surprised at how loud cats or loose panels in a muffler could sound like knock. And the reason it isn�t there when cold is the expansion of metal hasn�t taken place. And it�s not there at higher revs because the resonance changes when RPM changes. Just to be sure

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Sam, but I like Juan! Let's go with Juan , or David Lopez if you ask my kids (their favorite YouTuber. His alter ego is Juan). I have the Amazon scope arriving today. I'll also take a closer listen. I plan on spending more time on the car this week (mainly Thursday) with several parts arriving by then. I prefer not taking this into the shop, except to get the codes read on their in-depth computer. Other than that, I somewhat enjoy diagnosing and fixing things. With your help we'll figure out this mystery! Or...I'll need to rent somebody's spare room and I'll change my name to Juan for real, because my wife will kill me !

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Wow-impressive! Will it work to go through plug holes? I plan on that route first, seems less involved.

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I agree, but it keeps throwing O2 codes on bank 1. So even if there is bore scoring and I want to drive around a bit, I need to get those fixed. The AOS and water pump might be too much but I already bought them so might as well throw them in and see what happens.

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I see. I'm reading the posts in reverse, I need to change my settings on here.

That's the spirit, keep you sense of humor and accept the challenge. You'll get through this...Just take your time and measure twice/cut once

I just did a Google search "996 engine knock", there are YouTube videos, one in particular, You Tube has a 996 engine with a knock that sounds very similar to yours. The follow-on video shows the engine torn down, it was found to have a bad #6 cylinder. You may want take a look at it. There are quite a few other videos with similar noise, they seem to be piston related. Rapid onset of the issue was noted in one of the videos.

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2nd video was good, thanks for sharing

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Just thinking out loud here: a relative compression test could reveal if there is a stuck lifter problem. Low amp clamp on an ignition coil wire can be used as a trigger signal to find which cylinder has the stuck lifter.

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You need a scope and a fast low amp clamp though.

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I don't think OP is going to jiffylube or autozone to have his diagnosis done. I would imagine just about any independent shop would have this, since they would need non vehicle specific diagnosis equipment. OP - if the car was mine, and I couldn't find anything on the borescope, I would perform a relative compression test. A relative compression test is different from a leak down test or compression test done with a pressure gauge. The two latter options will tell you if you have a cracked cylinder wall or a valve not sealing, but it may not reveal a stuck/sticky lifter. PS where are you located? Let me know if you're in SoCal..I have all the tools to do this.

Oops. Just realized there is snow in your first video...definitely not so SoCal!

If you don't have the manual.....click the link http://audipages.com/911/wsm/

I would go in through the spark plug with the borescope before removing the pan. I was able to see clear piston scoring from the top - you do not necessarily need to go in from the bottom. Look at pistons 4 and 6 first.

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Thanks! That's a fantastic resource.

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Here's #6. Video below photo You Tube

I see something that looks interesting at around 0:55, but it does not look like scoring to me. Compare that to the video of my scored pistons in my post here: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...e-rebuild.html That was #6, but my #4 was actually worse. I'm not an expert, but from the engine sound if it was piston slap you would see very obvious scoring. It would not be 'light' scratches in other words.

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Hopefully his other cylinders look this good. Is it safe to say these engines never develop a "Rod knock" like a bad crank bearing or is that also a possibility? Its hard to follow every post but has the OP run the car with the belt off to rule out any pully noise? I personally think its from inside the engine but its worth a shot.

Might also be helpful if you could get a photo/video from a 90 degree angle to the cylinder wall - my endoscope has a 45 deg mirror attachment for this. It might be able to better show contrast vs. the oblique angles of the vid you posted.

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At 10 o clock?

Right, I see a light vertical line at 10 o'clock around 0:55 in the video

Yea, looks like some minor scoring. Probably from the skirts coating beginning to wear off? But I agree with others, this cylinder looks pretty good. Very little carbon build up.

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I have that attachment too, but didn't seem to work...but I will try again. I was so tired last night that right after posting the video here, I fell asleep. Have a little time today to look at the other cylinders.

I have to say with all the talk of IMS failure I feel like bore scoring gets overlooked but man this stuff is all so scary. So many things to worry about. At least with the IMS you can replace it for relatively low cost, but man this creates a very expensive solution! I almost want to get a scope and check mine but I feel like no good can come of it lol. Either its happening or it isn't and there is nothing I can do to prevent it. What type of milage are you guys at and noticing this issue? I show no signs of any problems, I am just curious. Recently did an oil change, nothing unusual in there. Cut the filter open and it was spotless.

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This is exactly why I sold my n/a 996 and bought the tt 996. I just couldnt enjoy the car constantly wondering if today was gonna be the day I turn a 20k car into a 5k paper weight. Best decision I have ever made car wise.

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The TT 996 isn't prone to these same problems?

#4 Piston head seems full of something but can't get a good look at it with it at tdc. Can someone quickly tell me which way and where to rotate shaft so #4 is close to BDC and then #5 as well? Here's where it is at right now. 1999 996 3.4

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No the TT has a Mezger engine which is completely different. I have turbo fever and am looking for one!

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Good to know. I also feel like these forums, and the internet give us a false fear. You figure its what 5-8% of cars that have IMS failure? Whats the rate of bore score, less? I feel its like if you cough and look it up on the internet you can figure you are surly dying, where only maybe 2% of people with coughs lead to death. Man its a hard thing to not worry about though lol

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For every bore scoring I read or listen to, I found 1-2 videos/forum posts of people getting 150k+ miles out of their 996. BUT for me, assuming there is bore scoring then who cares about the figures? If you want reliability, buy a Toyota. But I'm guessin if you drove even a Toyota at the same level as these get driven you would have even more problems...just my unlucky two-cents.

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Ty!

Hey WonByOne, What borescope are you using?

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Depstech Wireless Endoscope, WiFi Borescope Inspection 2.0 Megapixels HD Snake Camera for Android and iOS Smartphone, iPhone, Samsung, Tablet -Black(11.5FT) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MYTHWK4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_JPcaCbR3D3VF4

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Great, that's the one I sent to my wife back on Monday and told her I'd like it for Christmas. It was also on a flash sale for $29. That made it too tempting for my wife I'm sure. I currently have a borescope that attaches to my shop laptop. It is about 25' long, which sounds really cool, but if you're working alone you have to run the borescope, then get out from under that car and go see if the brightness and focus was right. Many times I've borescoped an engine and then realized I didn't record anything because the laptop didn't catch that I'd clicked the record button, or the LEDs were not the correct brightness, or I didn't get close enough to focus. It really only works for cars that you can scope easily from above while the laptop cart is next to the car. Since I almost always have my iPhone and iPad with me I decided to upgrade my borescope options.

#5 side view. Minor scoring, don't think huge issue ATM. #6 sides look good. #4 side view #4 #5 #4 looks badly scored, more than likely where the tick is coming from. #5 has a bunch of crud in it... What is that stuff and is there a way to clean it? Looks like oil getting through head gasket? Here's a video of #4 #4 cylinder passenger side closest to rear

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My guess is oil getting past the rings from below, due to the bore scoring.

The rings are allowing blow by because of the scoring. Damn dude I am sorry that this was the noise I was hoping bad cat, or a pully somewhere.

Wow, I�m no expert by far, but #4 looks bad.

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Agreed, now if only we knew what causes the scoring on these engines.... I'm sure someone much smarter than I knows, my question is is it metal shards from the IMS or the chain guides (before catastrophic failure) that end up being rubbed up and down the cylinder wall and over time it creates this issue?

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Correct. The 996tt vs 996 engines are as different as people differ from each other. Sure, same layout, size, number of cylinders, etc., but totally different build quality, including few compromises on the oil system. People don't buy a TT because they cannot afford it, IMO. The turbos rarely need to be replaced, the coolant pipes need to be pinned or welded, the intercoolers are added complexity, but that�s any turbo car. TT owners can sleep at night. There was a time when a 996TT could be had for $35-$40k. That�s a 996 with a rebuild right there. If you can swing $40-50k, it�s a no-brainer. After all, TT prices could double like other Turbo prices have.

I thought extreme cold weather starts and driving off before proper warm up is achieved was said to be the issue.

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I couldn't agree more, I opted for non turbo based on the fact that I wasn't looking to have the fastest car in the state, but just a fun toy. But if I were to have a failure, added to my initial investment I would be at the cost of just around a low end TT car. Maybe In the spring we will look for one of those??? Interesting, so if one were to find a car that lived in say Miami its whole life it would have less of a chance of scoring? DISCLAIMER: I have no reason to believe mine is or will fail except the heart attacks given overtime I log onto Rennlist hahahahaha

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I might be wrong but I believe its a number of factors that can cause it, the low friction coating on the pistons can flake off (which is sometimes caught in the oil filter) which allows AL to AL contact, another cause can be shedding of the suspended particles in the aluminum matrix, due to the tight clearances they score up and down and cause a positive feedback event shedding more particles. I think these two factors are both accelerated with oil starvation and/or low temperature engine starts, with the oil not lubing the piston to bore gap enough so allowing more contact, greatly speeding up the process. Hence states with bad winters see more of this. It happens on Cayenne's too, so is not a unique 996/997 problem.

On a positive note, changing the plugs and two O2 sensors (up/down bank 1), the car has tons of power again! Yeah, there's still the crappy tick, but man it's fun. Before, I think the O2 sensors we're screwing things up because I didn't have that zip, especially 1-2 gears. But since those changes, cel went away and so does the rubber, because it burns ! Gotta have some fun until the fate of death occurs...

What I understand is nobody knows how long it will run with scoring? So is mine a tester? I might throw on some winter tires and use this as my winter beater if it's destined for the graveyard.

In the end at least I can be like Joey from Friends and clean the Porsche to impress people . Oh, gotta love scoring...

No desire to do a rebuild on it, just going to drive it until explosion and then call pick and pull to come take it to the scrap yard?

Who knows, you could get another 30K miles out of it before it grenades. I have a Ford Edge for a company car and it has ticked and had a CEL on for 25K miles (dealer had it 3 times and no fix). It now has 102K and still runs fine. Save a few $$ each month so that by the time it dies you'll have money stashed away for a new motor!

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Idling isn't the "proper" way to warm up an engine. The engine runs rich while in closed loop operation/cold starts; this exacerbates localized heat zones. Drive the car, and just keep it below 4k rpm until you reach normal operating temps.

That's a bummer OP, but at least you know what issues you have in front of you. I've heard of some one particular user here driving their cars for ~2 years without any issues other than oil consumption. I can think of two other threads where 3.8 builds had oil consumption issues. Have not seen an update on them in some time though.

So sorry, that is definitely scoring. See how it aligns with the piston skirt? It will likely start in the #6 piston shortly as the skirt material wears off. That is oil blowing by into your cylinder, which will eventually get into your catalytic converter and ruin that. Sorry to be a downer but that is inevitable. Doesn't mean you can't continue to drive it, but no guarantees how long until it grenades and causes more damage. In my case, I could not stand that ticking sound, plus was worried about it causing more damage that would eventually cost me more $$$ to fix. Sorry for the bad news.

This is what my #4 piston looked like

This sucks! Caveot Emptor, but hopefully Karma plays into this equation. You seem quite resourceful and mechanically inclined. Good luck on whatever you choose to do.

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Id like to do a rebuild, for sure. Especially after I called a company and they said it's the same price to upgrade to a 3.8, now the hurt of added expense at least gains a few more horses. In the end though, yes I was not told the truth and made a dumb decision on the purchase; this certainly adds stress to me financially as I am not one of those who can afford to buy a new Porsche (not complaining, I chose my profession by choice); but really it's just a car. When I'm faced with challenges in life, I like to think about the families and kids down at the children's hospital and draw inspiration. If they can get through what they are dealing with, we can certainly overcome any financial/mechanical problems that veer our way.

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Glad to see you have a positive outlook and you are correct its only a car. Is this your daily driver? If not it may last you a LONG time before you really need to address the issue. What did the PO say the noise was? Id love to hear how this douche spun this to you.

Sorry to hear and see that OP. As others have mentioned, you may get a lot of mileage out of it before it truly needs attention.

Sam, if you think about it this way: you bought a $15k 911 that still feels pretty good but has some issues. Just drive it and enjoy it. Meanwhile, save for your rebuild. Then in a few years you will have a $35k 911 that is an absolute beast . For now, stop throwing money and parts at it and just drive it with a big grin on your face. For $15k you didn't get completely swindled, so don't feel bad about yourself. If you've never heard the anecdote about the $30,000 Porsche, hang out for a while longer on Rennlist.

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The more I think about it, you are absolutely correct! A much richer friend of mine just bought a brand new C4S for almost 100k. I got mine for 15k and after chatting with RND, sounds like I can get the 3.8 heads & Pistons installed for ~8k. After I do that and buy new tires, replace suspension, I'll be all in for ~26k for a car that would cost ~90k new...and the upgraded engine should be better than that. Anyway, I LOVE driving this car but plan on parking it tonight for the winter. Ugh, I'm having so much fun tooling around with it at the moment. I'm burning off the remaining gas then filling up with non-oxygenated 91 before storing it away. Already have a name for it too! I named her the millennial Falcon, or Falcon for short. Just like in Star Wars, she's an old ship but man she's fast .

Btw, I've searched but can't seem to find data on performance difference going from 3.4 to the 3.8 sleeve/pitons by LN. Anyone know the specs?

What is this for by the rear view mirror? Radar?

FSI doesn�t post dyno numbers but it�s not just about the displacement. It needs to be a whole well built cohesive package. Intake/heads/cams all have to be part of the package. All things being equal, I would expect 40-50 hp going from 3.4 to 3.6. Can you go to 3.8 from a 3.4? Not sure.

Hartech in the uk take the 3.4 out to 3.7 running standard heads and ECU and say it copes well, forget what gas your putting in for winter, get that engine out and stripped , ship the blocks to Hartech for re sleeving up to 3.7 then rebuild her up ready for spring!!

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Why they don't talk about the numbers is actually smart. Dyno readings are misinterpreted. Why I say that is the average person focuses on the peak numbers, and usually on the peak HP number. In the grand scheme of things, that number means nothing. What good is having a higher number at the upper end of the RPM range when you rarely are up there? Many engines built for peak HP tend to sacrifice bottomend and mid-range power. The better engine, especially for owners who primarily use their cars around town, is the engine that has usable torque. 3.4L-to-3.8L builds see the most gains in the bottomed end mid-range tq. That's where you want it. From my understanding, owners of these bored engines are not disappointed. Great advice here! I take it one step further and recommend people buy these cars with already blown engines and then having the engine rebuilt from the get-go. But for your case, just drive it and keep the amount of money you spend on the engine (parts that can't be transferred over to a rebuilt engine) to a minimum.

Here's my friends new toy. He has a ferrarF as well and when asked which he prefers he simply said "they're different."

OP, not sure I saw this in the thread -- have you considered an OEM short block? https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...l/996100951tx/ ECS lists the 3.4 for $6k and its factory-new. If something like this ever happens to my 996, I plan to rebuild my engine using one of these.

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Interesting...no I did not see that. Is that better than getting the ln rebuild which costs roughly the same? Or is this short block an easy swap, thereby saving on labor cost?

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The short block is stock Porsche, including the large single row IMSB. The Flat6 rebuild addresses the weak links, so it is more robust. If you are a competent mechanic and you learn about the 3.4 rebuild process from threads on this site and resources such as the knowledgegruppe (think I spelled that correctly), you can rebuild it less expensively using the short block. Remember that you will need to get the heads rebuilt (around $2500), and there are lots of other bits that need to be replaced that will cost several thousand. You are still looking at over 10k doing it yourself. If you have another shop that does the rebuild, it probably will be cheaper to use the short block, especially if the crank needs to be replaced. Just make sure you use a shop that knows how to rebuild a Porsche flat six.

If you love the car and everything else is in tip-top shape, save and do it right with an FSI or equivalent build.

The Porsche short block or to find a used engine and make compromises will cost less money for sure. If you have extra funds and want to recoup more of the cost into residual value, go with a Raby or equivalent. In the end, you might lose about $10-$15k either way, it�s just that the total value of the car when it�s done might be higher with a Raby or FSI, etc.

Don�t skimp. Do it right the 1st time around. It�ll be more cost effective in the long run.

People never have the money to do it right the first time..... But they are okay with spending even more the second time. You have one chance- don’t blow it!

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I agree! I don't buy cheap anymore, just not worth it. Great to find a good deal, for sure! But any 2-5k savings might not be worth it, especially in these cars that are one with the engine. Car still runs okay but I have it parked for the winter. My plan is to drive it until I save up the funds for new engine or rebuild. Who should I be calling when ready? I'm in Minnesota. Actually, I'd like to call now andget an idea on cost ahead of time. My goal is to keep this car for a long time.

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Flat6 posted here and literally has an engine failure hotline in his tag, I would start there...

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We don�t work weekends, but you can feel free to submit a ticket through our site at www.flat6innovations.com We will reply promptly and set up a time for a phone consultation on Monday.