Mods & Warranty Issues

I am contemplating installing a GIAC chip, an EVO air intake and a Milltek exhaust. As a first-time Porsche owner I am not sure how concerned I should be about the impact these mods will have on the car's warranty. Obviously, Porsche may try to void my warranty if a problem develops. I would like to know if any of you have experienced warranty issues where Porsche has attempted to deny a claim. For those of you who have already done these mods, are you just hoping you don't have any engine problems that might lead to a warranty claim?

Jonathan, I believe this topic has been discussed previously. A dealer's acceptance of mods vary. Many times, the denial of warranty claims stems more from the dealer not 'stepping up to bat for you' when presenting your case to Porsche than any clear contractual language or Porsche policy. I've found that the key is finding a dealer who is mod friendly. Within my area 2 of the 3 dealers are mod friendly. Suncoast Motorsports (nuff said) and Bert Smith. Everytime I visit these two dealers there'sa 996 racecar sitting in the parking lot or lobby or a996 receiving a supercharger kit or some other mod. I've had the EVO intake for months and will be doing the GIAC at Suncoast anyday. No worries here.

I'm not sure about MA dealers, but I would echo silversleds comments. Finda dealer that will do the work for you and they will have to stand you up in a warranty 'confrontation'.

I've been reseaching this also, and I guess my local dealer qualifies as mod UNfriendly. Heard a story at my local PCA meeting about a member who had a chipped boxster, but also kept his stock ECU. When he had an engine problem he put the stock ECU back in before taking it to the dealer. The dealer tech was able to tell the ECU had been removed, and the repair was not covered by the warranty. I was told by a dealer employee that major warranty repairs are investigated by PCA and that thedealer could lose their franchise if they hide the fact mods are present. I wonder how the mod friendly dealers handle this... Dave

Someone around here knows much more about this than I do, but I think the mod friendly dealers submit the repair for warranty coverage, but don't expect them to lie or to engage in a cover-up for the customer. I think PCNA does review, and approve or disapprove, each claim. Thus, the final decision is not up to the mod-friendly dealer. In my mind, a mod friendly dealer is simply one that will submit the warranty claim when modifications might render warranty coverage questionable. So modifications such as a re-mapped ECU, intake and exhaust would probably place warranty coverage for engine repairs at risk, but probably wouldn't affect warranty risk for other components such as suspension.

Thank you for your replies. I am going forward with these mods. I certainly have a small amount of trepidation due to the warranty risks, but I truly don't believe anything I am doing is placing the car at any great risk of damage. I just needed a little handholding...

You can find lots of information if you search. The consensus seems to be that your warranty will be questionable on the associative parts. For instance, if you change the headers and the exhaust sensor or the mufflers have an issue, they might question in. They aren't going to deny your coverage on the massairflow sensor (intake) because of an exhaust change. Likewise, if the MAF goes bad and you changed the intake/filter, they may question in. Out of all of the external engine mods (not counting turbos, superchargers, etc), the riskiest in my opinion would be the ECU remap. I believe that they could attribute any engine failure to it. That said, I will most likely change my ECU, exhaust, and intake when finances permit. I'll deal with warranty issues if I run into them. If the engine gets toasted, that sounds like a great reason to drop in a 3.8 or 4.1

smounic, Now that's the right attitude! /fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/MWPX/thumbsup.gif

Jonathan, do what you like with the car. It's YOUR car. I'm sure there are a few Porsche shops willing to work on your car if the dealer gives you a hard time.

One thing that you will all have to keep in mind is thatmany of the repairs require a Vehicle Analysis report. These reports were once printed and sent in with the claims and required someone at PCNA to look at them. The new system sends the reports electronically now and is reviewed by the PCNA computer system. This system is much like the IRS system in that it looks for any irregularities and red flags the repair if any were found. The new PIWIS software now has two built in functions that will check for any re-chipping and report it. All of the vender's such as Revo, GIAC etc are all detectable. Porsche had already issued a bulletin when the 996 Turbo first came out that any DME (ECU) tampering will void the warranty.I'm only offering this information to update everyone on the current capabilities with PCNA.

Thanks for the info, PCA-TECH. Do you have anyexperiences that wouldindicate how picky PCNA is about warranty coverage on a modified car? For example, if a car has a modified exhaust system would they still cover a RMS problem? In my mind that would be unrelated and should be covered, but maybe they would consider any mod to the engine voiding coverage of everything on the engine. Thanks, Dave

You're actually protected under US Law. There's a law passed (has a name like Magnusson-Moss act or something, look it up to be sure), but anyway, the law states that you can mod up your car, and your warranty is still good -- UNLESS it can be shown that your mods caused the problem or were partially responsible. So if you put on a new exhaust or change the ECU, and the the suspension fails, your warranty will be honored. Jeremy

Swancoat- I am aware of that law, and agree that in theory they eventually have toshow the failure is related to the mod. However, that does not mean that they couldn't deny the claim even thoughthe failureis unrelated. It would then be up to the car owner to take them to court. If the stories I've heard are correct, there is at least one German manufacturerthat seems toprefer the settle it in court approach, and denies most claims if there are any mods present at all. I was hoping to gain some insightif PCNAis in that camp, or if it takes a more resonable approach. Dave

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr noshade="" id="quote" height="1" /> Swancoat- I am aware of that law, and agree that in theory they eventually have toshow the failure is related to the mod. However, that does not mean that they couldn't deny the claim even thoughthe failureis unrelated. It would then be up to the car owner to take them to court. <hr noshade="" id="quote" height="1" /> </blockquote> Do NOT think MM will protect you. MM was never intended to help car owners ... I can personally point you to several stories (another model car) where ppl tried to hide behind MM. Denied warranty claims due to MODs and to 'competing in timed events' (e.g., autox). You can try to go the MM route but you need very deep pockets, many times more than what the car is worth. Major auto corporations have the lawyers to ENSURE the consumer will not win a MM case. I have no idea if Porsche is willing to pursue but others are. BTW, dont think that just because you added an intake and something goes wrong with the engine that they can't blame the intake because they can blaim anything they want. Its then up to you to take the time in court to prove their claim is wrong. Lots of luck! Edited by - chows4us on 10/04/2006 2:36:08 PM

I have owned heavily modded porches and never had a single warranty claim even slightly questioned. This includes a chipped turbo with aftermarket charge pipes and intercoolers, and when a wastegate hose split or a turbo sealwas suspected of a possible oil leak,the local dealer fixed both no questions asked. Many dealers are now even installing aftermarket bolt-ons for customers and selling them through their parts deparment. there is a TON of missinformation out there on this toic and even more urban myths about denials...like the one above about the boxter being denied a repair because the dealerdetected the ecu had been removed. The dealer cannot detect this period. The only OBD fault that is stored when an ecu is pulled is a few low voltage codes. These are the same you get if your battery dies or is discconnected. The ecu does not store a seperate code when unplugged. Even if it did, they could not deny a claim because you unplugged it, they would have to prove you tampered with or altered it. To do this they must send the ECU to Germany to be anaylized and check sum run on the ROM. This has only been done in a few select extreme cases. I am not sure why PCA-Tech reports that all the aftermarket chips are detectable by the new PIWIS, it just isn't technically possible without a full download of the ROM and comparison with stock programs, of which there are many that would have to be compared. They may tell you its possible in training, but they are mistaken... My general perspective is that modding my car brings me lots of enjoyment, and I'm certainly not going to let a remote potential for a warranty claim denial prevent me fromhaving this enjoyment. I research my mods carefully and only use proven reputable parts, and make sure they are installed correctly. Any failures that comeupare covered if unrealated, and paid forby me if I caused them.As for my engine granading due to a chip or exhaust, well...I'll never happen w/o some other latent defect, and dealers and PCNAboth know this as well. happy modding... Dave

Sorry..one more real life story: I bought and Audi TT when they 1st came out. Week 2, I put a set of coilovers in it, Millteck, Diverter valves, GIAC, FMIC, Staggered wheels, etc... It had auto leveling Bi-Xenons that had sensors on the lower control arms. I moved them a little to compensate for the new lowered ride hight, but appearently not enough. I went over a few big bumps and bent the arms on the sensors until the failed. Went to a local dealer. They replaced all the sensors, readjusted them, & adjusted the headlight levels, all under warranty....and complimented me on a very nice TT. No questions asked. davew

PCA-TECH, I don't want to argue this point, but we analyzed my car with GIAC on the PIWIS at 2 separate dealerships, both with the latest software patches to the PIWIS and neither was able to detect the GIAC programming in the report (all 37 pages of the report I might add). So I don't know if GIAC has done something to prevent detection, or whether the Cayman's ECU is read differently from the Turbos but so far GIAC has proven to be undetectable. That said, at some point it may be with an update from Porsche to its dealers so I wouldn't bank on it being that way forever.

It also makes sense to understand what a modification changes in your car. I'm not a big fan of some mods because sellers don't truly explain how they accomplish some of their 'magic' but if you can understand it and accept the results then you are probably not running a big risk of Porsches Police. If you buy a black box that does 'something' to give you more horsepower than you probably are at risk. If you buy an exhaust system to do thesame probably not (although I'd like to seeemission changes published since I have to live on this planet).Ask hard questions before buying and moding is a good rule of thumb and don't accept the 'we can't tell you because we don't want the competition to know' line. Edited by - Santa Fe on 10/04/2006 7:33:42 PM

GIAC and others use multiple levels of encryption to avoid detection...the only way to tell is to download the map file from the ROM and run a check sum or compare against the known OE file, if known... but there are multiple versions of each the OE files and multiple updates for each. I have extensive 1st hand experience and knowlege in rewriting ecu programs. PIWIS does store data on each VIN, but OE ECU ROM isn't part of the data set. AND many dealers only have 1-2 PIWIS systems in place, and a PST2 certainly isn't detecting anything. dw

GIAC and REVO software is detectable. I suggest that you take a look at DME programming in the PIWIS andcheck some of the added features that are under this section.The DME checking and addition to the PIWIS tester is new and being added. Now as to comparing files this is quite simple considering I wrote the program to do it. I can take any Porsche DME and pull out allor any part of the DME program that I wish . This is done as simply as plugging into the DME via the OBD2 diagnostic port. Porsche maps are made up of .PAF and .DAF files of which certain combinations of the two are assembled to make up the MAP. I will not get into a discussion as to exactly what they consist of, how they are assembled , programmed or what parts of the memory they reside in. Lets just say that these companies have a habit of stopping the map at one location in the memory and transferring it to another.

I'll go look again next time I am on the PIWIS, is there a particular item in the DME section you want me to look at? I'm pretty sure we looked at everything in that section, but I want to double check it so if you can point me to exactly what you want me to look for let me know. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to discuss publicly. Also last time I checked my owner's manual there was no statement that altering my programming would void my warranty. /fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/MWPX/omg_smile.gifof course we all know how Porsche 'can' be if it wants to...

I will be at the Daytona PCA event October 12 - October 15 and would gladly talk to anyone that will attend. This will be the first event in which 1996 and newer cars will be checked for DME compliance.

PCA-Tech: First, please explain what you mean about cars being checked for DME compliance. Why would this be needed and how is it done? Second, can the reprogramming that is done by companies like GIAC be reversed? Can it be undone in a fashion that is undetectable?

I'm sorry I'm a little confused by your reply... Are you saying there is an update module being added to the current Bosch software specifically for DME/ECU software checking? I am not aware of this upgrade release... And am I to understand that you wrote the update module for Bosch? if so then you know that the ECU can identify itself to PIWIS any way its software in the ECU was programmed to. PIWIS can only read what is there. GIAC, Revo, PSI, 9ff, etc...can display any value they want to be displayed for a scan. I fully agree PIWIS can be used to access any part of the data in memory you want. But once accessed and downloaded you would have to go in a read/compare the raw data to that ofall known valid OE map files. Of course the addresses for the fuel, ignition, and other values are all known and can certainly be compared...but this is not something your average dealer tech can even discuss let alone accomplish. Not to mention the number of known OE files that exist for some p-cars. Cayman is new and probably only has 1 or 2 version to date, but a 1999 c4s or c2 probably has 20 or so possible valid file versions. I've seen scans where the part number on the case of the ECU didn't even match those on thescan data, for a known OE ECU. Toss in CA emiissons, CND cars, and well....good luck to ya. I'm not trying to call you out or anything, and I hope my post doesn't sound that way. I'm just having trouble understanding what your saying is possible and meshing it with what I know about the technology. But I don't have my own PIWIS to play with, so maybe I'm missing something..who knows. dw

Hmm, if PIWIS was an option for $8K when we bought our Cayman's, would any of you have checked the box? I think I would be tempted..../fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/MWPX/shades_smile.gif