Things to consider for 95k mile 997 - Page 5 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Hello all. I am currently looking at a 2005 3.6 997. It's done 95k miles. It does have the service stamps in the book and has had the ims replaced. I'd normally discount it but it's in a spec I like. Any thoughts? Am I mad for considering it and will it be a massive money pit or are the more used examples more likely to keep going rather than a infrequently used garage queen. Thanks for any points raised. Ben

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It depends on current condition. Strongly recommend a PPI. Is it a manual or a Tip? If things like suspension; shocks, arms, bushes haven’t been touched since it rolled out the factory then it would be due refreshing. This could easily be £5-6k (based on experience). Things like corroded A/C condensers, that’s £1k. Brakes? £500 an axle Tyres? Sam again Coolant pipes front a rear? Fronts will be about £1k rears closer to £2k. Tandem pump? Water pump? Check the service history and invoices. Usually if the car has a good MOT History and has the service book to back it up it’s probably a good car. IMS is one thing, but serviceable parts like the above soon add up. In my first year, I’ve spent just under £8k getting up to scratch, although some was elective OCD things. Don’t want to put you off and if you can spanner savings can be made on labour!! Oh, post the link too!

I agree with all the above and definitely do not be put off by a high-miles car as long as it's been serviced and maintained well - ideally by an enthusiast. Get a really good PPI, ideally with borescope inspection of the cylinders. I'd rather have a 997 that's been used regularly and driven rather than one that been sitting around for a couple of weeks at a time. Obviously get it at the 'right' price, as the market does not value high miles cars - so you're in a good position to bargain.

bore wear is your biggest worry. Oily exhaust tips, piston slap etc. Needs a scope.

Honestly my friend, don’t ask questions about these cars on forums. Do your own research and go in with your eyes wide open. Forums will scare you no end, they’ll say this, that, scaremongering, PPI, bore score, yada yada. Trust me, if you take all of the advice that you get on forums, you can still get a car that has engine issues, gearbox issues, coolant pipe issues, brake issues, whatever. The car you’re looking at is nearly 20 years old, it’s is old, it’ll have parts that may need replacing or not. Any 20 year old car will have issues especially performance cars. You decide and good luck.

maz8062 said: Honestly my friend, don’t ask questions about these cars on forums. Do your own research and go in with your eyes wide open. Forums will scare you no end, they’ll say this, that, scaremongering, PPI, bore score, yada yada. Trust me, if you take all of the advice that you get on forums, you can still get a car that has engine issues, gearbox issues, coolant pipe issues, brake issues, whatever. The car you’re looking at is nearly 20 years old, it’s is old, it’ll have parts that may need replacing or not. Any 20 year old car will have issues especially performance cars. You decide and good luck. That's fair and I'm sure OP is going in eyes open buying a 20 year old Porsche. But I think calling out bore score as a specific thing to check is fair, the rest is just standard wear and tear for an older car, engine rebuilds are not!

^ If it’s a manual 3.6 he might be ok…at least that’s what I’m banking on!

I'm reasonably handy on the spanners. I work in design now but was a Tech in the mod. I've had a look at the parts and they are more than for a white goods car but not ridiculous. I'm aware I need to be careful and look for the obvious issues. 3.6 seem a better engine than 3.8? Maybe less stressed. Hear you on the scare stories. A bad engine is not great but doable. Get hartec to do the liners etc and rebuild with new bearings etc. Thanks for the replys. I'm more familiar with classics and light commercials from a technical point of view. I do wonder if a frequently used car is better than one that's been stood about. Or that's what I hope for anyway

I’ve a got a 3.6 with 136k miles and it still pulls strong. I’ve also got a borescored 3.8 tip with 99k miles. The 3.6 is a good engine, zippy, revvy, but it’s not as good as the 3.8. If you jumped out of the 3.8 straight into the 3.6, you notice the difference. Torque.

Six years ago I bought and still own an early 997 3.8 with 72k miles on the clock. I've added 10k and have had lots of fun with the car. But I went in a little naive and was slightly over-awed by the prospect of owning a 911. All I would say is, go in with your eyes open. Forget the badge - there are lots for sale, and they are old cars (mine is 20). They have all the usual things to worry about as other old cars plus some of their own. The engines can and do go wrong, but forgetting that that there are many other areas that it's worth having checked before you buy via a PPI. Mine came with stacks of paperwork and had, in my opinion, been well maintained. Still, in the first couple of years I had the suspension refreshed all around, all the AC components replaced, coolant hoses replaced (engine out job), a new clutch, new gear linkage cables, the list goes on. They are lovely cars but investing in a PPI is very sensible IMO.

Benspickup said: I'm reasonably handy on the spanners. I work in design now but was a Tech in the mod. I've had a look at the parts and they are more than for a white goods car but not ridiculous. I'm aware I need to be careful and look for the obvious issues. 3.6 seem a better engine than 3.8? Maybe less stressed. Hear you on the scare stories. A bad engine is not great but doable. Get hartec to do the liners etc and rebuild with new bearings etc. Thanks for the replys. I'm more familiar with classics and light commercials from a technical point of view. I do wonder if a frequently used car is better than one that's been stood about. Or that's what I hope for anyway Sounds like you know what you're getting yourself in for, good luck they are lovely cars! The engine is a little unfairly maligned, it's smooth, powerful and makes a great noise!

Whilst it's nothing compared to engine checks, have a look at the windscreen. Many of these have had a Fuyao (or Pilkington) replacement fitted which aren't very good. Even with the genuine Porsche 'kite' on them, some haven't been fitted well. It's an issue when you want to get it sorted and contrary to those who recommend 'throwing a brick at it' to claim on your insurance, it's just not worth the hassle of arguing to a) get a genuine windscreen and b) have it fitted properly by someone who doesn't know how to.

997_Sussex said: It depends on current condition. Strongly recommend a PPI. Is it a manual or a Tip? If things like suspension; shocks, arms, bushes haven’t been touched since it rolled out the factory then it would be due refreshing. This could easily be £5-6k (based on experience). Things like corroded A/C condensers, that’s £1k. Brakes? £500 an axle Tyres? Sam again Coolant pipes front a rear? Fronts will be about £1k rears closer to £2k. Tandem pump? Water pump? Check the service history and invoices. Usually if the car has a good MOT History and has the service book to back it up it’s probably a good car. IMS is one thing, but serviceable parts like the above soon add up. In my first year, I’ve spent just under £8k getting up to scratch, although some was elective OCD things. Don’t want to put you off and if you can spanner savings can be made on labour!! Oh, post the link too! 100% this!!!! Been there done it too and agree spannering can save a LOT of money.

Quite happy and confident to do a fair bit of the labour myself to be honest but will need specialist knowledge now and again for sure. I'm just hopeful it will be more usable and less prone to tine in the garage than my old Alfas. Manual gearbox only. Does this make any difference to reliability? Many thanks for all the replys Ben

Benspickup said: Quite happy and confident to do a fair bit of the labour myself to be honest but will need specialist knowledge now and again for sure. I'm just hopeful it will be more usable and less prone to tine in the garage than my old Alfas. Manual gearbox only. Does this make any difference to reliability? Many thanks for all the replys Ben Gearboxes are strong in the manual cars, tiptronic is slow and rubbish and PDK can be temperamental. Manual is the one to go for. shift linkage does wear but upgraded ones are cheap and plentiful.

997_Sussex said: ^ If it’s a manual 3.6 he might be ok…at least that’s what I’m banking on! The Gen 1 997 3.6 engine is intrinsically the same as that in the 996.2 (one of the worst offenders when it comes to bore scoring) so it’s just as likely to score as the 3.8 engine … But yes, there is a lot that goes wrong with these cars, so the best thing to do is speak to Baz/Grant at Hartech and ask them what the ratio is between 997 3.6 and 997 3.8 engine bore score issues. Once you’ve found a car you think fits your criteria, have a PPi carried out by any of the well known and regarded independents and once you have the results, heed the advice of the individual as to whether the car is a good one/and or/if the amount of work required makes its purchase tenable.

Serial 997 owner here (because I love them). And my experience (2 bore scores over 100k in my cars) it that it is not so much if as when. My first one was at just 7500 miles from new (it had the problem when I bought it at a year old from an OPC). Luckily new engine under warranty. Second one went at 65k. Now a Hartech 4.1 and going great guns. A clear bore score at 95k just says you are ok for at least the next 5k (probably). So buy with rebuild in mind - or buy a (properly) rebuilt car.

^ quite a broad brush stroke here. For clarity, what were both engines and both transmissions?

Appricate all the feedback. It's tempting to get s car with a bad engine and rebuild it but spec wise your going to get what you get I feel. I'd be comfortable with a 10k car with a scored engine and rebuild it but they are few and far between at that price point. Much more and the completed car would be up at 997.2 money which then begs the question of why bother.

Benspickup said: Appricate all the feedback. It's tempting to get s car with a bad engine and rebuild it but spec wise your going to get what you get I feel. I'd be comfortable with a 10k car with a scored engine and rebuild it but they are few and far between at that price point. Much more and the completed car would be up at 997.2 money which then begs the question of why bother. Your conclusions are why the value of these cars keeps on falling. If anyone enquires about the cars, the doom squad are out in force, some that don’t even have a 997, to harp on about this, that and t’other. Before you say “really”, Hartech and a potential £20k spend will have been shoved down your proverbial throat. If not that, they insist on a £500 PPI, borescope checks, cooling pipes, yada yada. No wonder you’re put off by it all and will probably look elsewhere. Do the maths, why spend £25k on a car with the sword of Damocles of a potential £20k spend if the engine goes pop, and they say it definitely will, when the cost of the rebuild will not be recouped when you sell? Right answer, you won’t bother. It’s the way of the internet - folk love to spread bad news - some of it potentially true but nothing in life is guaranteed. Everything will break at some stage, even ourselves. We just have to weigh up the risks and get on with it. If you change your mind, buy with your eyes wide open. They’re very easy cars to work on with tons of YT videos on how to change suspension, brakes, etc. Good luck whichever way you decide to go.

It's the same as everything isn't it. Just bigger bills with these compared to most things. A engine rebuild wouldn't be the end of the world but needs budgeting for in the future. Very keen for one as they tick alot of boxes for me.

Discombobulate said: Serial 997 owner here (because I love them). And my experience (2 bore scores over 100k in my cars) it that it is not so much if as when. My first one was at just 7500 miles from new (it had the problem when I bought it at a year old from an OPC). Luckily new engine under warranty. Second one went at 65k. Now a Hartech 4.1 and going great guns. A clear bore score at 95k just says you are ok for at least the next 5k (probably). So buy with rebuild in mind - or buy a (properly) rebuilt car. When people talk about the OPC having replaced the engine under warranty (or in some cases rebuilding it) would I be right in saying it would have been a like for like replacement? Or did they fit revised internals to reduce the likelihood of bore scoring etc reoccurring?

I get that they are older now and need the tlc that brings. Has anyone had hartec replace the liners and then build the engine themselves, tallied the cost. I bet its a chunk but not life changing amounts.

Light scoring is not the end of the world as some would have you believe, if it doesn’t rattle, smoke or use a more than normal amount of oil it should be fine for what most owners want from a 20 year old sports car that has been there life ambition to own. So many potential buyers are being put off and probably then buying a newer whatever car that will almost certainly cost more in depreciation than the potential engine rebuild should the 997 ever really need it . I.e rattles, smokes or uses oil ! Have owned used 911’s for over 20 years now,G50, 993 and now 8 years into 2005 C2S ownership and would never have bought any if I had taken the advice of the internet and missed out on these life/ ownership experiences. Go with your heart and enjoy the experience, worst case you have sell it on and buy a mondeo . Edited by steve1968 on Friday 13th September 21:42

Redline88 said: Discombobulate said: Serial 997 owner here (because I love them). And my experience (2 bore scores over 100k in my cars) it that it is not so much if as when. My first one was at just 7500 miles from new (it had the problem when I bought it at a year old from an OPC). Luckily new engine under warranty. Second one went at 65k. Now a Hartech 4.1 and going great guns. A clear bore score at 95k just says you are ok for at least the next 5k (probably). So buy with rebuild in mind - or buy a (properly) rebuilt car. When people talk about the OPC having replaced the engine under warranty (or in some cases rebuilding it) would I be right in saying it would have been a like for like replacement? Or did they fit revised internals to reduce the likelihood of bore scoring etc reoccurring? OPC will not rebuild an engine as that's not cost effective, they just put in a new lump which is the same manufacture as the old engine so bore score is again possible down the line

Looking at it, Hartec liners x6 budget around 3k. If you DIY the engine build, another 3k in parts? So a chunk of change but not awful for what is a performance engine in what others have said is an attainable dream car for many of us. I think I will go and have another look at the car. If its made it to 95k, its hopefully going to arrive on a bit longer if its still in good order.

Good plan. Please report back!

steve1968 said: Light scoring is not the end of the world as some would have you believe, if it doesn’t rattle, smoke or use a more than normal amount of oil it should be fine for what most owners want from a 20 year old sports car that has been there life ambition to own. So many potential buyers are being put off and probably then buying a newer whatever car that will almost certainly cost more in depreciation than the potential engine rebuild should the 997 ever really need it . I.e rattles, smokes or uses oil ! Have owned used 911’s for over 20 years now,G50, 993 and now 8 years into 2005 C2S ownership and would never have bought any if I had taken the advice of the internet and missed out on these life/ ownership experiences. Go with your heart and enjoy the experience, worst case you have sell it on and buy a mondeo . Edited by steve1968 on Friday 13th September 21:42 Exactly this. I took my 136k Mike 3.6 coupe out yesterday - what an amazing car it is; the grip, the noise, the poise. People came up to me to chat about the car - folk love them. By comparison I’ve just sold my SLK 55 AMG which I had for a couple of years. In that time I probably spent £8/9k on the car for various issues, none engine related, though. When I sold it I lost a whole chunk of change. But I enjoyed driving the car and would have another in a heartbeat. In my view spending £££ on a PPI, especially the ones where the individual does his checks on the owners driveway and has various t&c’s that remove any liability for mistakes etc, may be worth it but I’d rather invest time and energy understanding the car and knowing the tell take signs to look out for, such as: - Insist on a cold start and let the car idle. - Check the exhaust tips - Run a diagnostic check and look for stored codes and Google them while you’re there. Any codes that you’re unsure about find out before proceeding because it could turn out to be expensive. - Check the oil. Ask how often the owner has had to top it up. It’ll amaze you how many owners don’t even bother to check the oil level before starting the engine. - Check the service history, keeping an eye out for advisories. If you can, speak to the garage that last serviced the car. - Check the MOT history - Do an HPI check - if buying privately, buy the owner. - when you buy the car use the best fuel - Tesco 99 (139p yesterday) Shell V Power or Esso 99 I followed the advice in this video when buying both of mine: https://youtu.be/rB5EKc_2I6M?si=JZcwgI4b3HS5a6Vl For the most part, owners of these cars tend to be fastidious, wealthy, and spend money on the cars. A low owner car with FSH is likely to have authorised repairs and it’s not uncommon to see £3k annual service bills. Despite all of the checks, the owner, the test drive, a good gut feeling for the car, PPI, something can and will go wrong. You just have to be prepared when it does, it’s a car after all. Edited by maz8062 on Saturday 14th September 10:15

maz8062 said: Your conclusions are why the value of these cars keeps on falling. If anyone enquires about the cars, the doom squad are out in force, some that don’t even have a 997, to harp on about this, that and t’other. Before you say “really”, Hartech and a potential £20k spend will have been shoved down your proverbial throat. If not that, they insist on a £500 PPI, borescope checks, cooling pipes, yada yada. No wonder you’re put off by it all and will probably look elsewhere. Do the maths, why spend £25k on a car with the sword of Damocles of a potential £20k spend if the engine goes pop, and they say it definitely will, when the cost of the rebuild will not be recouped when you sell? Right answer, you won’t bother. It’s the way of the internet - folk love to spread bad news - some of it potentially true but nothing in life is guaranteed. Everything will break at some stage, even ourselves. We just have to weigh up the risks and get on with it. If you change your mind, buy with your eyes wide open. They’re very easy cars to work on with tons of YT videos on how to change suspension, brakes, etc. Good luck whichever way you decide to go. To provide some balance to the rant above … With all due respect, you appear to like chucking big numbers into the mix purely for affect. £500 PPi or £1000 for new engine mounts to highlight but two recent examples. Just because you’ve not experienced bore scoring issues, doesn’t mean others won’t, and Discombobulate’s experiences are proof perfect that these are very real issues. Once the OP has found what he considers to be the right car for him, a sensibly priced PPi by a good Porsche independent will quickly reveal whether the car is a good one or not. As others have mentioned, these cars have many and varied pitfalls, bore-scoring unfortunately being the most expensive to rectify. And fir those quoting Hartech’s costs solely for the machine work along with the supply of their liners, getting the engine out of a 997 is no small undertaking, and by the time you’ve dealt with the myriad of seized nuts, bolts and studs that afflict ALL 15-20 year old cars, the time and costs rapidly add up. The cost of an M97 engine build can and does quickly add up once you’re at the “whilst you’re in there” stage : Clutch, water pump, tandem pump, cam chains, tensioners and guides, AOS, gasket sets etc all add up. On the face of it “It’s only £3k” sounds reassuringly cheap, but rest assured it’ll be at least double that, and realistically closer to 3X that by the time you’ve factored in all the parts, all the labour, oil, coolant required and added the VAT. Coolant pipes are an issue, and in the worst case scenario can look like this : You might be happy to bury your head in the sand and pretend such issues don’t exist, but don’t try to convince others as much, as for the unwary, that sensibly priced, sensible mileage 2007 997.1 C2 S manual coupe may look enticing and tick all the boxes, but over the next 2-3 years it could generate some truly eye-watering bills. And judging by the amount of cars that appear on the market very shortly after having had a Hartech engine rebuild, and having only done a handful of miles since said rebuild, the bills were both unexpected and unwanted. As for replacing suspension components, yes, in theory they are easily replaced, but the reality is some of the bolts will be seized, and even with the full workshop facilities I have at my disposal, it’s not always a straightforward job removing them, and if you end up paying someone to do the job, it can quickly get expensive. As you were …

Benspickup said: Much more and the completed car would be up at 997.2 money which then begs the question of why bother. Because the 997.2 is not the safe bet many think it is. The carbon build up as these cars get to higher miles from the DFI is starting to cause issues. The US rebuilders like Jake Raby say they wouldn't own a 997.2 because of the issues they are now seeing. However, the US tends to have lots more higher mileage cars, and don't think their fuel has as many cleaners in it, so have to be a bit careful comparing. But they are saying working on the 997.2 is much harder and more costly when things do go south, and more and more are going south as they hit age and milages we are seeing now. But, a 2006 or later 997.1 with a rebuild could be the safest bet as far as they are concerned. The fact is, as these cars hit 20 years old, they are all £25-30k cars again now. Sure you might pick one up for £15k, but to get it right, as in driving like new, and reliable, it will cost £25-30k minimum. Sure you might own it for a couple of years and pass it on before it needs work, but the reality is, if you buy one today and want to keep it for ever, it will be £30k and then the £3k a year upkeep too. Others may think differently, but anyone who has owned a 996 or 997 in the last few years and tots up total costs will probably agree. It is the same for every generation, same for every marque, look at E46 M3's now, have the big three done, and one with new suspension all round and nice condition and it will be £25k. That same car 10 years ago was £10k. These cars are now at the age where upkeep price is factored in. You are not just paying for the car.

Slippydiff said: Coolant pipes are an issue, and in the worst case scenario can look like this : The coolant pipes are also getting expensive if you want to do the lot. AMS charged £1600 to replace the lot on mine and that was "while the engine is out" having a £12k rebuild.

997_Sussex said: ^ quite a broad brush stroke here. For clarity, what were both engines and both transmissions? 20053.8 C2s manual (bought at 11 months old and 6800 miles from OPC). Immediately noticed ridiculous oil consumption and black n/s exhaust. Took some effort to talk Porsche out of a partial rebuild and eventually got a new engine out of them 2008 3.8 C4s manual. Pampered, over serviced (annnual oil changes ever 5k or so) and carefully - but not too carefully - driven car. Another OPC car bought nearly new with 8k miles. Early scoring in 5 and 6 at 65k. Rebuilt by Hartech last year into 4.1. Superb thing.

Armitage.Shanks said: OPC will not rebuild an engine as that's not cost effective, they just put in a new lump which is the same manufacture as the old engine so bore score is again possible down the line Porsche wanted to rebuild mine in 2006. On an 11 month old car with just over 7k miles. I fought - with dealer support - for a new engine. These days new engine standard offer though for reasons you highlight.

And, at the risk of over posting, I should clarify that I think the 997.1 is a great car. Oddly I prefer it to the slightly more sanitised feel of the 997.2 As for costs of rebuilds. My bill for the 4.1 was nearly 23k BUT that included everything that needed doing - from clutch, tandem pump and coolant and other lines, to water pump, oil cooler, cats, manifolds and coils. I own Trigger’s broom. And it’s a keeper. Currently in the Alps clearing its throat.

Ed.Neumann said: The coolant pipes are also getting expensive if you want to do the lot. AMS charged £1600 to replace the lot on mine and that was "while the engine is out" having a £12k rebuild. That sounds excessive bearing in mind the engine was out and coolant drained … The above were done “whilst we were in there” because we were doing a full suspension refurb and fitting Ohlins R&T’s. The inner coffin arm bolt was seized in its bush on the one side, so we elected to lower the front crossmember (a 10 minute job) which made doing the front coolant pipes a breeze. With the engine out, the rear pipes would be similarly easy. So one would assume the majority of that £1600 was parts ?

I'd aim to do most the labour myself on one I buy. I have a decently kitted out workshop and 4 post lift. Though I know it's far easier to look after these with a 2 post lift so wouldn't discount getting one and keeping the 4 post lift for restoration jobs on my own classics. No body can argue that the bills that you can get from these cars is quite high. I'd hope by doing most of the work myself I'd keep the expenses down and little. 21k for a engine build sounds a lot but like you say there was alot of extra work and it was a performance upgrade which always adds a good chunk on. Those coolant pipes pictured look rotten. Again what's the cost of the parts? 3-400 quid. If its that and a evening or 2 in the workshop I coupd live with that and I think most semi capable people could.

Slippydiff said: That sounds excessive bearing in mind the engine was out and coolant drained … The above were done “whilst we were in there” because we were doing a full suspension refurb and fitting Ohlins R&T’s. The inner coffin arm bolt was seized in its bush on the one side, so we elected to lower the front crossmember (a 10 minute job) which made doing the front coolant pipes a breeze. With the engine out, the rear pipes would be similarly easy. So one would assume the majority of that £1600 was parts ? Yeah. It was nearly all parts. I think there was only and hour or two of labour. This was every line, every connector, all new mounting hardware and might have even been a new expansion tank. I think the coolant pipes shot up around 30% 18 months or so ago. When looking at a couple of sections I guess it isn't much, but when doing every bit it soon adds a fair bit. The front pipes and connectors are now £600, where as they only used to be under £400. Same with the climate lines (edited as just checked my quote). I was thinking it had gone up to around £150. Section 6 (99657309102) is now £230! The section that always leaks at the joint, the one nearest the sill. I think I paid around £100 for that including vat 4 or 5 years ago. Edited by Ed.Neumann on Saturday 14th September 15:53

Ed.Neumann said: Yeah. It was nearly all parts. I think there was only and hour or two of labour. This was every line, every connector, all new mounting hardware and might have even been a new expansion tank. I think the coolant pipes shot up around 30% 18 months or so ago. When looking at a couple of sections I guess it isn't much, but when doing every bit it soon adds a fair bit. The front pipes and connectors are now £600, where as they only used to be under £400. Same with the climate lines (edited as just checked my quote). I was thinking it had gone up to around £150. Section 6 (99657309102) is now £230! The section that always leaks at the joint, the one nearest the sill. I think I paid around £100 for that including vat 4 or 5 years ago. Yep the parts price increases are eye-watering, price gouging + Porsche tax make for expensive parts.

Benspickup said: I'd aim to do most the labour myself on one I buy. I have a decently kitted out workshop and 4 post lift. Though I know it's far easier to look after these with a 2 post lift so wouldn't discount getting one and keeping the 4 post lift for restoration jobs on my own classics. No body can argue that the bills that you can get from these cars is quite high. I'd hope by doing most of the work myself I'd keep the expenses down and little. 21k for a engine build sounds a lot but like you say there was alot of extra work and it was a performance upgrade which always adds a good chunk on. Those coolant pipes pictured look rotten. Again what's the cost of the parts? 3-400 quid. If its that and an evening or 2 in the workshop I could live with that and I think most semi capable people could. For all the front pipes over £500 + vat.

The DFI engines have been fitted since 2008 and I'm not hearing of any problems with them. Possibly the opposite. In fact, Hartech at first struggled to find failed Gen2 engines to develop, so it might be worth asking them for a qualified view. I have noticed that despite the cost (and value) of cars with engines that have been properly repaired by Hartech, the sale prices of these seems to take little account of the sum spent on them. This may also be an interesting option ...

They're not immune from issues Chris. The early blocks/crankcases had a casting defect that lead to .... you guessed it, bore scoring. It's suggested the factory quickly addressed this and also fitted replacement engines (without any quibbles). Jake Raby is the world's best self publicist and Porsche engine builder (if you believe everything he says) and whilst there's no doubting he is very talented, I'm not sure I believe everything he says. I know Hartech have rebuilt some 997.2/987.2 DFi engines, but the reasons for them having to do so remain unpublicised so far, whether it was due to excessive carbon deposit build up is unknown. Whilst they may have issues, they appear to be nothing like as common as the issues that afflict/ed the M96/97 engines ...

Slippydiff said: They're not immune from issues Chris. The early blocks/crankcases had a casting defect that lead to .... you guessed it, bore scoring. It's suggested the factory quickly addressed this and also fitted replacement engines (without any quibbles). Jake Raby is the world's best self publicist and Porsche engine builder (if you believe everything he says) and whilst there's no doubting he is very talented, I'm not sure I believe everything he says. I know Hartech have rebuilt some 997.2/987.2 DFi engines, but the reasons for them having to do so remain unpublicised so far, whether it was due to excessive carbon deposit build up is unknown. Whilst they may have issues, they appear to be nothing like as common as the issues that afflict/ed the M96/97 engines ... Discussed this when I was at Hartech. They have rebuilt some as you say - and technically seemed much more of a challenge than 997.1 (for reasons I don’t really understand so won’t pretend to). Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 14th September 20:50

I wouldn't I bought mine at 9y old from a supposedly trustworthy top tier dealer. The car came with problems. It was very nearly triggers broom 7.5y later when I sold it. The last straw was the bore scored engine Some said it's a case of when not if. That man is correct. It will come and if it's in your ownership, you have to own the problem which is a very expensive one to own. I'd buy a sorted car for more money or a different model entirely because gen 1 997 cars are old, made of light parts to give performance which do not last as long as heavier parts. I did not enjoy my ownership because it was constantly needing thousands spent on it. I was constantly checking for signs of bore scoring and finally they came.

Benspickup said: Appricate all the feedback. It's tempting to get s car with a bad engine and rebuild it but spec wise your going to get what you get I feel. I'd be comfortable with a 10k car with a scored engine and rebuild it but they are few and far between at that price point. Much more and the completed car would be up at 997.2 money which then begs the question of why bother. This garage, who I use a lot, have a car for sale, which is pre-rebuild. You'd obviously have to get a realistic estiamte of all the costs etc including the "whilst you're in theere" jobs and what else needs looking at. https://www.amsporsche.com/Porsche-997-Carrera-S-C...

FriedMarsBar said: This garage, who I use a lot, have a car for sale, which is pre-rebuild. You'd obviously have to get a realistic estiamte of all the costs etc including the "whilst you're in theere" jobs and what else needs looking at. https://www.amsporsche.com/Porsche-997-Carrera-S-C... Fora manual maybe, but a Tip?

It's a hard one weighing up your options sometimes isn't it. Soon sink a few grand into a 997. I was talking to my best mate today about it. He had a interesting spin on things. Think of it compared to having a new blandmobile on pcp for 400pcm. That's nearly 5k a year for something your renting. The 997 seems OK in comparison then.

Benspickup said: It's a hard one weighing up your options sometimes isn't it. Soon sink a few grand into a 997. I was talking to my best mate today about it. He had a interesting spin on things. Think of it compared to having a new blandmobile on pcp for 400pcm. That's nearly 5k a year for something your renting. The 997 seems OK in comparison then. This.

Probably said elsewhere, buy on condition, not on miles... Usual stuff, if it's had loads of work then it'll be worth it, as the service work doesn't add value... Hence a lot of ropey cars, serviced on schedule and with knackered suspension, weeping coolant hoses, etc... They're OK to work on, but the engine is a PITA to get at anything, so some basic jobs are painful. Spark plugs as an example. That said, they're a decent steer, reasonably practical, reasonably comfortable and can still do a track day! Some parts are cheap, others wildly expensive... Sometimes there's a VW part for a fraction of the price. But as said, our family crapbox we used to lease, and it easily used to cost more in monthly payments, and now we swapped back into owning it, it probably costs more in depression. But the reality is that they're 15 to 20 year old cars and things will be that old on them, and they'll need maintenance and jobs doing for the age of the car.

Benspickup said: It's a hard one weighing up your options sometimes isn't it. Soon sink a few grand into a 997. I was talking to my best mate today about it. He had a interesting spin on things. Think of it compared to having a new blandmobile on pcp for 400pcm. That's nearly 5k a year for something your renting. The 997 seems OK in comparison then. Or the worst might never happen and you do 50k in your lovely 997 spending a couple of k a year on parts to bring it up to snuff. Sometimes you have to roll the dice!

Discombobulate said: Benspickup said: It's a hard one weighing up your options sometimes isn't it. Soon sink a few grand into a 997. I was talking to my best mate today about it. He had a interesting spin on things. Think of it compared to having a new blandmobile on pcp for 400pcm. That's nearly 5k a year for something your renting. The 997 seems OK in comparison then. This. Thing is you can blast 10k miles a year in a bland mobile and cost little to nothing to run, do the same in a 911 and it's going to cost you a lot, it's totally worth it, but don't think it's going to cost the same to run as a bland mobile. Just the massive rear tyres cost a lot, plus road tax etc etc

Porsche owners tend to be from the more affluent section of society . They’re, for the most part, fastidious, fussy and some have OCD on these cars. They’ll spend 1000’s getting the alignment done, suspension refresh, Pilot Sport 4 S expensive tyres and only service the car at expensive independent specialists or OEM. Prospective owners need not worry that the car has been taken care of - most have. If not move on the next one. Buy on condition, the history, the owner and you should be ok If you’re going to daily the car however, it’ll be expensive. Fuel in the high teens will not be good for your wallet and items will break. Use it sparingly, service it, drive it and don’t waste money on expensive alignment, tyres, after market suspension (unless you intend tracking it) and expensive specialists. Very little on this car is overly complex compared to equal machinery from Mercedes, Audi, BMW etc. From my pair, the OPC have looked after the cars much better compared to so called specialists.

The comparisons are valid, but for full man maths you have: Older cars are lower tax bracket, so less then anything new with the "luxury" VED - mine is less than my olds new Jaguar plug in hybrid, due to this. Fuel is similar to anything big, the SUV's like a drink, as do all the Ute's your see driving around everywhere. Most pick ups will only manage low 20's if you're lucky from what I hear. Tyres, no different from a SUV thing on 21" rims. No depreciation to speak of, and a £5k war chest each year Essentially, plenty of people will go buy a Audi Q7 / BMW X8 / FF RR, with vast depreciation, massive running costs and expensive consumables and no one will bat an eyelid. I saw some headline about some influencer / TikTokker bod complaining that their Porsche Cayenne, which had been their dream car, cost a lot to run! You couldn't make it up!! Yes, it'll cost more than a diesel Golf, as will anything that's not just a generic cross over thingy. I do about 3k a year in mine, but that's all I do anyway so may as well make it interesting. I recently did the pads and discs all round, as well as braided hoses - I bagged a bargain on the discs (Pagid) and upgraded to Brembo HP2 pads so all in was about £400 plus some hours crawling around the car.

RemarkLima said: The comparisons are valid, but for full man maths you have: Older cars are lower tax bracket, so less then anything new with the "luxury" VED - mine is less than my olds new Jaguar plug in hybrid, due to this. Fuel is similar to anything big, the SUV's like a drink, as do all the Ute's your see driving around everywhere. Most pick ups will only manage low 20's if you're lucky from what I hear. Tyres, no different from a SUV thing on 21" rims. No depreciation to speak of, and a £5k war chest each year Essentially, plenty of people will go buy a Audi Q7 / BMW X8 / FF RR, with vast depreciation, massive running costs and expensive consumables and no one will bat an eyelid. I saw some headline about some influencer / TikTokker bod complaining that their Porsche Cayenne, which had been their dream car, cost a lot to run! You couldn't make it up!! Yes, it'll cost more than a diesel Golf, as will anything that's not just a generic cross over thingy. I do about 3k a year in mine, but that's all I do anyway so may as well make it interesting. I recently did the pads and discs all round, as well as braided hoses - I bagged a bargain on the discs (Pagid) and upgraded to Brembo HP2 pads so all in was about £400 plus some hours crawling around the car. Large new SUV vs 20yr old 911.... not sure I understand.. different wealth bracket

Gregmitchell said: Large new SUV vs 20yr old 911.... not sure I understand.. different wealth bracket You'd be surprised. An older 911 is often a 2nd, 3rd or even 4th car tucked away in the garage. We have had ours (it's my wife's) for 15 years having bought it nearly new. It has weedled its way into our hearts unlike any other 911 we have had. It's a keeper.

maz8062 said: Porsche owners tend to be from the more affluent section of society . They’re, for the most part, fastidious, fussy and some have OCD on these cars. They’ll spend 1000’s getting the alignment done, suspension refresh, Pilot Sport 4 S expensive tyres and only service the car at expensive independent specialists or OEM. Prospective owners need not worry that the car has been taken care of - most have. Highly, highly fanciful, in my experience. Have viewed lots of used Porsches over the years. Small minority are in the fastidious category. Absolutely the norm to see service intervals maxed out, so these days that means 2 years / 20k miles, ancient tyres (plenty of tread!) and generally absolute bear minimum tickbox maintenance. Lots of people who polish and polish but don't actually look after the car properly. It's harder to gauge that on newer cars - a three year old Porsche perfectly maintained by the book has barely been looked at. But if you take a poll of, say, 10-15 year old 911s in the classifieds, you'll find only a small minority have been subject to fastidious stewardship.

The mileage is not important at all, especially if you intend to drive the car. In fact, a car that's been driven regularly is a much better proposition. If possible: 1/ buy a car with not too many owners (as loads of owners may indicate cars being passed on before expensive repairs or services are required). 2/ buy from a Porsche enthusiast who you can tell has loved the car and spent time and money on fixing things/ improving things, etc. 3/ buy a car that's ideally had recent annual services (rather than longer intervals). Especially if it's an older Porsche. 4/ do not underestimate the importance of refreshed suspension and an accurate geometry set-up. The car will handle and drive MUCH better if that's all been sorted. I know, having bought a 997 recently that's been fettled by 'Centre Gravity' in the Midlands. Good luck!

As a owner for 9 years, aside from the obvious wear and tear parts: Suspension parts inc bushes but especially the front struts at the top where the gen 1 cars are prone to corrosion - look around the pistons Clutch/flywheel usually last 40-60k so could need No 2 or 3 As folk have said front and rear coolant pipes - mine had front at c13 years old and just had the rear done (expensive as engine out job) this year at 18 years old Air con condensers - mine went at c16 years, as did one of the cooling fans Mine has also just had front to rear brake lines which had rotted in to holes!!! They also pass over the gearbox so should be gearbox out/down job but could probably be cut in if the section over the gearbox is ok. Mine is an 06 car btw with 65k miles The other thing no-one has mentioned yet is water leaking in through the doors. Obviously rain water is designed to run through the door and is prevented by coming in by a plastic membrane stuck to the door frame behind the door card. The adhesive strips that hold the membrane are prone to becoming brittle and coming unstuck resulting in water entering the car. Signs are a damp/wet floor obvs, but also if you run your finger along the carpeted piece at the bottom/underneath of the door card and it is damp, there's the sign. Not sure whether you'd be able to spray water on the car when you view it!! Reasonably easy fix and not expensive if you're DIY, but a nightmare if you don't notice it as they are a massive faff to dry out and there are electrics under the seats on the floor.

Gregmitchell said: Large new SUV vs 20yr old 911.... not sure I understand.. different wealth bracket Not sure, I could lease / PCP a large SUV and suck up the running costs, but a) I don't like leasing / PCP and b) I really do not want a large SUV... Similar, I could probably lease / PCP a newer 911, but see "a" above. Surely, a similar wealth bracket I'd think? Otherwise, it's a Ford Kuga or some such cross over jobbie? Would it not be the same as people running around in 5 to 10 year old SUV's, with more issues if they're a FF RR, and potentially as large bills? And there's a market for those clearly? I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's one of appearance, and something I've been subject to - you pull into a work place with a nearly new box / white goods / or "premium" white goods and no one comments. You turn up in a 20 year old Porsche, and everyone thinks your loaded... When the running costs can be similar to anything else "premium" and new if you factor in finance, depreciation, and everything else. As I say, man maths to drive a 911 everywhere

Gixer968CS said: Mine has also just had front to rear brake lines which had rotted in to holes!!! They also pass over the gearbox so should be gearbox out/down job but could probably be cut in if the section over the gearbox is ok. There is a cheaper solution to this: https://www.rocketdogracing.co.uk/product-page/por... and https://www.rocketdogracing.co.uk/product-page/por... So no engine out required.

RemarkLima said: Gixer968CS said: Mine has also just had front to rear brake lines which had rotted in to holes!!! They also pass over the gearbox so should be gearbox out/down job but could probably be cut in if the section over the gearbox is ok. There is a cheaper solution to this: https://www.rocketdogracing.co.uk/product-page/por... and https://www.rocketdogracing.co.uk/product-page/por... So no engine out required. About time someone made these, seems like such an obvious fix. I inspected my hard line when I changed the clutch and it was minty mint so no need but good to have this option.

Went to look at the car I've been pondering over for a awhile. Condition is generally very good for a 20 year old car. Paintwork and body was good, nothing to report really. Inside has worn the miles well with just a bit of marking on the drivers seat but nothing deal breaking. Looking through the paperwork, it's been serviced on time all the time. What did concern me is that they only get a oil change at 20k miles. Surely this is a big cause of premature wear of the engine? Suspension looked not too crusty for the age of car but nothing in the paperwork to suggest it has been changed. The engine has had the ims and tappets changed but again nothing much else is evedanced in the paper work. Still like the car but will probably look at some others just for comparison as they don't seem to sell in any hurry so there seems little rush to commit. Thanks again for everyone's comments and experience.

I’d be interested to hear what you did? I would have commented on this back then but I’m well out of date. I have a 2005 997 C2 manual and have had a lot of maintenance work done in its life: new engine, under warranty, new (Porsche recon) gearbox when 1st broke, new gear linkage (garage error), new suspension lower arms x 4, new brake pipes, lots of discs (I’ve done 40+ track days), lots of pads and tyres! New air con condensers, new coolant pipes and new exhaust back boxes and intermediate box. Probably all in about £10k but it’s done 65,000 miles and now (as always) drives like new! I’ve had it 19 years and always garaged her. Good luck.

I've been to look at a couple more 997.1 and to be honest they are all much a muchness. There all 20years old and most have 100k miles on them. I spoke to a specialist and they are quoting 600plus vat for a inspection including bore scope at there workshop. Does this seem about right. I've never had the need or inclination to have anything else I've bought inspected but these do seem capable of checking some large bills. Your thoughts please gentlemen

I put an offer on a 90k+ 2007 Carrera 4S yesterday without a PPI, I can see receipts for a lot of mechanical work but it's not had the engine rebuilt. It isn't showing any obvious signs of bore scoring so I'll take a risk, but I'm also talking sub £14k, I wouldn't want to be paying much more. I don't know where you're located but Friends Green Porsche do a reasonably priced inspection, although not sure if it's pre or post purchase and I don't know if it included bore scope. From what I've read, a bore scope only determines bore scoring on that day, there's nothing to say that an issue won't arise 1k miles down the road.

I've been to look at a couple more 997.1 and to be honest they are all much a muchness. There all 20years old and most have 100k miles on them. I spoke to a specialist and they are quoting 600plus vat for a inspection including bore scope at there workshop. Does this seem about right. I've never had the need or inclination to have anything else I've bought inspected but these do seem capable of checking some large bills. Your thoughts please gentlemen

Sorry for the double post above. Yes I think you are onto a winner at 14k price point. It's when you pay out 20kplus and then get a 10k bill for a engine rebuild that hurts. Most of us will accept a bit of spend on these cars and from my limited experience driving one, it's worth it.

SpunkyGlory said: I put an offer on a 90k+ 2007 Carrera 4S yesterday without a PPI, I can see receipts for a lot of mechanical work but it's not had the engine rebuilt. It isn't showing any obvious signs of bore scoring so I'll take a risk, but I'm also talking sub £14k, I wouldn't want to be paying much more. I don't know where you're located but Friends Green Porsche do a reasonably priced inspection, although not sure if it's pre or post purchase and I don't know if it included bore scope. From what I've read, a bore scope only determines bore scoring on that day, there's nothing to say that an issue won't arise 1k miles down the road. A C4S for less than £14k is mad, but this is what the internet has done for the values of 997.1’s. It’s absolutely crazy. These cars, with options, cost nearly £100k new. This is the only 911 version where folk are advised to do a borescope or walk away. Not 996.2 with the same engine as the 997.1 C2 or a Cayman S with the M97 engine. Or Metzger, 997.2 engines, Cayenne, Macan etc. The result is that prices will continue to slide and those with a rebuilt engine won’t be worth much more than a car with a clean borescope. I blame the shops that have managed to whip this up into a frenzy, charge £00000 to carry out a fix that simply replaces liners and pistons, not the crank, the head, just pistons and liners. They also recommend replacing all 6 when at worse it should be just the bank of pistons/liners that are affected, but the internet has decided that 6 is better than 3 liners and charge accordingly. The shops are getting rich while the customer is losing big time. Some even claim that the fixed engine is better that a Porsche built engine. Rubbish of course, because Porsche designed and built the whole engine including pistons, liners etc. Not just liners as the pistons are outsourced anyway. The internet has also decided that the end game is when scratches are found on the liners. It isn’t of course, but no one will buy a car without a clean borescope, not for more than £10k. 997.2 owners slag off the 997.1’s. 996 owners slag off 997.1’s. 911 owners slagging off other 911’s. I’ve never seen it before but such is life. Rant over

It's a difficult decision for most people who are trying to buy a good car that hopefully won't drop too many large bills. I think it has perhaps been well published, the various common issues of the cars. I do think folks are right to have a decent inspection on the cars done, including a scope in the engine. I'm guessing the majority of folks buying these aren't that hands on themselves so rely on a good specialist inspection. I spoke to a very well respected specialist and the technical gent who I spoke.to advised to just get a 997.2 car if I can. To be honest though, I think the manual gearbox .2 cars are probably over budget for me. Another thing to consider is that the market is incredibly slow. I feel for any dealers with alot of stock or private sellers that need to sell. Private sellers will keep the car or take a big hit. Some decent looking well looked after cars up for sale and very few sell. The one I've been looking at has been for sale about 6months but I think I'm too far away on price with the dealer as I'd like a bit of a safety net. Thanks again for all the comments.

maz8062 said: A C4S for less than £14k is mad, but this is what the internet has done for the values of 997.1’s. It’s absolutely crazy. These cars, with options, cost nearly £100k new. This is the only 911 version where folk are advised to do a borescope or walk away. Not 996.2 with the same engine as the 997.1 C2 or a Cayman S with the M97 engine. Or Metzger, 997.2 engines, Cayenne, Macan etc. The result is that prices will continue to slide and those with a rebuilt engine won’t be worth much more than a car with a clean borescope. I blame the shops that have managed to whip this up into a frenzy, charge £00000 to carry out a fix that simply replaces liners and pistons, not the crank, the head, just pistons and liners. They also recommend replacing all 6 when at worse it should be just the bank of pistons/liners that are affected, but the internet has decided that 6 is better than 3 liners and charge accordingly. The shops are getting rich while the customer is losing big time. Some even claim that the fixed engine is better that a Porsche built engine. Rubbish of course, because Porsche designed and built the whole engine including pistons, liners etc. Not just liners as the pistons are outsourced anyway. The internet has also decided that the end game is when scratches are found on the liners. It isn’t of course, but no one will buy a car without a clean borescope, not for more than £10k. 997.2 owners slag off the 997.1’s. 996 owners slag off 997.1’s. 911 owners slagging off other 911’s. I’ve never seen it before but such is life. Rant over Slightly bizarre rant. Plenty of well informed observers advise that all M96 3.6 and M97 3.4+ cars need care regarding their bores and pistons. Your claim there is objectively false. Cranks usually do not need replacing, you just need new shells. On occasion, cranks have wear and can't be reused. Then...they are not reused! Many (good) rebuilds include head reconditioning. And some rebuilds are indeed much better engineered than the factory M96/7 in certain areas. Morever, the reason why 997.1 Carreras are cheap is because their engines fail at a very, very high rate. Some engine issues are over stated. IMS arguably falls into this category. Scoring on M96 3.6 and M97 3.4+ isn't over stated. It's very widespread. There are also good reasons to have all six pistons and liners attended to. In short, the idea that this is all cooked up by rebuild service providers is very, very silly.

There cheap and hard to sell for a reason. Fantastic cars in good fettle but a bad one will cost you the same again as the purchase price to put right. I think hartec quoted something like 250 engine's a year they are doing and that's just one specialist. To my mind, while it's in bits do the lot and do it as well as you can and try and future proof the car. I'd certainly not go to all the effort of getting tue engine out and stripped and not replace all the liners. I'd hope I could but a 997 and use it fir a few years before I have to rebuild it though with careful buying and a bit of mechanical sympathy

I'm not adverse to doing a rebuild but I'd like to enjoy the car first for a bit before getting the spanners out. Possibly would consider a 4 1 conversion

My suggestion is search autotrader for a car that has had a Hartech engine rebuild. There are always a few about and they fetch a premium but not a huge amount. It will give you much more peace of mind about the engine.

It's odd that a rebuild doesn't restore the value of the car in question... It helps a bit but it's a small premium. I wonder if the 4.1 would help or hinder a sale, being modified at that point?

RemarkLima said: It's odd that a rebuild doesn't restore the value of the car in question... It helps a bit but it's a small premium. I wonder if the 4.1 would help or hinder a sale, being modified at that point? This owner doesn't care. The 4.1 is so good, the car is going to part of my estate when I die. And, frankly the less its worth the better for my daughters (or my accurately their husbands who both have their eyes on it...) I have been lucky enough to own 10 911s over the years. From a 2.2s to a GT3 and the 997 is the only keeper (16 years now, 2 as a 4.1). Not sure why, but probably because it's the best all rounder and like wearing your favourite pair of old comfy shoes.

Not a 997, but I have seen a few Youtubers who have purchased Caymans only to discover bore score a couple of months later. If I was a suspicious person I would say the previous owner knew. Absolutely gutting to discover that your "cheap" £15k Porsche needs a £10 engine rebuild and several £1000s of other work "whilst you are in there" Surely the sooty tailpipes is hardly a giveaway as anybody who knows there car has some bore scoring and is trying to get shot of it would just clean the tailpipes? I have read numerous people state that bore score is inevitable and it is a case of when not if. I personally could not stand the worry of constantly listening out for every noise or puff of smoke thinking my £20k car is going to cost be half that again for a rebuild.

Thanks for thr tip. I did have a look with the mentioned specialist in the keywords, thank you for the top tip. To be honest they really aren't a huge amount more are they, maybe 5k more than one without and they are still slow to move. I'm tempted to either buy a nice car and keep a bit of dosh back for a rebuild. Or just keep an eye out for a nice spec 2wd manual car that's had a rebuild.

Is it me or are most of the cars with rebuilt engines automatic gearbox cars? Perhaps there is something in regards to the autobox and how it labour's the engine that makes them fail earlier. The v8s rover we used to make we're similar. Lots of failures in the range rovers and we used to see alot in for warrenty with porous engineblocks. Unheard of in the tvr or Morgans with the same engine but a manual box.

Benspickup said: Is it me or are most of the cars with rebuilt engines automatic gearbox cars? Perhaps there is something in regards to the autobox and how it labour's the engine that makes them fail earlier. The v8s rover we used to make we're similar. Lots of failures in the range rovers and we used to see alot in for warrenty with porous engineblocks. Unheard of in the tvr or Morgans with the same engine but a manual box. They have to work a fair bit harder in Range Rovers than in TVRs and Morgans thanks to the equivalent of at least 10 extra passengers

Benspickup said: Is it me or are most of the cars with rebuilt engines automatic gearbox cars? Perhaps there is something in regards to the autobox and how it labour's the engine that makes them fail earlier. The v8s rover we used to make we're similar. Lots of failures in the range rovers and we used to see alot in for warrenty with porous engineblocks. Unheard of in the tvr or Morgans with the same engine but a manual box. There's the suggestion that the auto's fail more frequently as they pull away in 2nd gear unless in sport mode. So they labour the engine a lot more for a smooth drive. The theory goes, that using lots of throttle with the engine under 2k rpm is bad, as it's a high load with lower piston speeds, meaning more time for the thrust faces to hit the bores... Not really sure if there's anything in it, but it appears that the order is risk is: 3.6 manual > 3.8 manual > 3.6 auto > 3.8 auto. The internet would have you believe that a 3.8 auto will borescore in about 3 miles of driving But scored bores are not unique to the M96 / M97 engines, there's Mercedes AMG engines with the same issues - and BMW had the whole Nikasil liners issues, and I'm sure lots of others do (given lots of German designed engines love a drink of oil!) but no one cares However, it's sadly a bit of a death knell to the 997 / 987.

Benspickup said: Thanks for thr tip. I did have a look with the mentioned specialist in the keywords, thank you for the top tip. To be honest they really aren't a huge amount more are they, maybe 5k more than one without and they are still slow to move. I'm tempted to either buy a nice car and keep a bit of dosh back for a rebuild. Or just keep an eye out for a nice spec 2wd manual car that's had a rebuild. Agreed I've always thought the rebuild cars are a bargain as quite often the owner has spent 10 to 15k on the rebuild but it only seems to fetch a 5k premium. And if you pay the premium when you buy it my guess is you'll get that back no problem if and when you decide to sell.

Benspickup said: Is it me or are most of the cars with rebuilt engines automatic gearbox cars? Perhaps there is something in regards to the autobox and how it labour's the engine that makes them fail earlier. The v8s rover we used to make we're similar. Lots of failures in the range rovers and we used to see alot in for warrenty with porous engineblocks. Unheard of in the tvr or Morgans with the same engine but a manual box. My bored and stroked 5.5 TVR developed water loss due to a crack in the block behind a liner. Could happen to any of those blocks. Probably more noticeable with Rangies as there are millions of them by comparison.

Back on topic without reading the full thread. I have an 08 987.1 with 88K on the clock. All original, doesn't use any oil and sings like a banshee! Just stick to short oil changes and always put away with the engine hot.

ThingsBehindTheSun said: Not a 997, but I have seen a few Youtubers who have purchased Caymans only to discover bore score a couple of months later. If I was a suspicious person I would say the previous owner knew. This is absolutely why there's a fair probability that the proportion of cars for sale with scoring is even higher than the proportion of the wider installed base - all the cars being punted on when scoring appears. When symptoms first appear, they are subtle and all too easy to pass off at resale. Most people's moral compasses go out the window when it comes to selling cars and houses. It's quite odd. Of late, have noticed some push back re getting cars scoped, narrative being that you can't see the bottom of the bores through the spark plug holes. And scoring starts at the bottom of the bore, so going through the top isn't an effective method. There's some limited truth to that, but I think it's an argument pushed by mobile inspection outfits who can't be bothered to scope and thus don't tell you the one piece of info you really want to know. The reality is that if the car is being sold due to scoring, it'll almost certainly be advanced enough to be visible through the top. Moreover, it's a very, very window where the car has very early scoring but it's not visible through the top. So, it'll only be a very small proportion of cars that will be missed going through the sparks.