Absurd Trade in Offers - Page 5 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

I recently enquired about a car I was thinking of buying. I was offered 47K for my 991.1 C2S Cab with 13,500 on the clock and with a 1 year warranty with Porsche. I know traders are in this game for a profit but this offer was derisory. The cheapest equivalent on auto trader is selling for 58K. Of course I can place my car on auto trader and simply sell directly. I started this topic to find out from others if this derisory trade in offer was par the course. In effect the dealer is looking at making nearly 10K profit when he resells my car. That raises the question about how much mark up traders have in their cars?

I know of a few occasions where OPC look to pay £30k less than the sticker price they eventually put on the car to sell it. Of course they will need prep, warranty, and may get haggled down.

OPC usually go £12-15K margin in my experience. Not unusual given their overheads

Doesn't seem that bad to me. Appreciate you'd want more but by the time costs are accounted for it doesn't seem an outrageous profit.

Yep cars incurring big depreciation recently, be thankful it wasn’t a Lotus Emira or Taycan.

TownIdiot said: Doesn't seem that bad to me. Appreciate you'd want more but by the time costs are accounted for it doesn't seem an outrageous profit. I can understand an OPC offering 10-12K below the market value given the prep work and warranty but an independent dealer who offers nothing.......that is what I am referring to as derisory. I also believe it is dependent on the independent dealer. If they are a Porsche specialist they obviously understand the market better than a general all make car dealer. Edited by FrancisA on Tuesday 5th November 20:09

FrancisA said: I can understand an OPC offering 10-12K below the market value given the prep work and warranty but an independent dealer who offers nothing.......that is what I am referring to as derisory. In effect the consumer rights situation means the dealer is offering a warranty on the vehicle

That is a ridiculously low offer - silly really when the market price for any 911 is pretty clear. Dealers are entitled to make a profit, but there are limits. Might they take it on a sale or return basis?

TownIdiot said: FrancisA said: I can understand an OPC offering 10-12K below the market value given the prep work and warranty but an independent dealer who offers nothing.......that is what I am referring to as derisory. In effect the consumer rights situation means the dealer is offering a warranty on the vehicle Maybe I was not clear - the Porsche warranty is what comes with my car which the dealer will be able to add as a mark up when selling the car on.

Maybe it's just me but I don't think paying out the best part of 50k in the hope of making around 10k is that outrageous.

NDA said: That is a ridiculously low offer - silly really when the market price for any 911 is pretty clear. Dealers are entitled to make a profit, but there are limits. Might they take it on a sale or return basis? I agree it is an absurd offer. TBH I would rather just sell it myself. I don’t see the benefit of having someone else sell it for a significant mark up.

I guess by the time they've got it out the door themselves the profit margin maybe in the 10% range on their 'investment' which doesn't sound outrageous.

Nothing new really especially given the time of year heading towards Christmas the cost of borrowing and economic headwinds adverse budget making folks poorer and depreciation hit on the vast majority of cars including most Porsches btw. Depreciation has returned but many think their cars are still worth top money. Dealer spreads are increasing and reflecting their reduced appetite for risk and taking a loss on any particular car. Good example is a 3 month old 24 mile high spec GTRS CS new price £170k include first year road tax has a current trade in value of around just £128k from an OPC them selling it on at mid to top £140ks. In contrast one of the first flipped 4RS costing c £135k sold for £227k plus fees on CC early 2023. Edited by av185 on Tuesday 5th November 20:21

av185 said: Nothing new really especially given the time of year heading towards Christmas the cost of borrowing and economic headwinds adverse budget making folks poorer and depreciation hit on the vast majority of cars including most Porsches btw. Depreciation has returned but many think their cars are still worth top money. Dealer spreads are increasing and reflecting their reduced appetite for risk and taking a loss on any particular car. Good example is a 3 month old 24 mile high spec GTRS CS new price £170k include first year road tax has a current trade in value of around just £128k from an OPC them selling it on at mid to top £140ks. Ouch. It would seem one should just be grateful to own a Porsche and sit tight.

FrancisA said: Maybe I was not clear - the Porsche warranty is what comes with my car which the dealer will be able to add as a mark up when selling the car on. My understanding is the warranty is only transferable when sold to a private buyer OR to an OPC. So no mark up / added value to independent?

Why would an independent "offer nothing" - they prep and warranty cars too, plus might find it even harder to get warranty work done. What do you think would be a fair offer?

av185 said: Nothing new really especially given the time of year heading towards Christmas the cost of borrowing and economic headwinds adverse budget making folks poorer and depreciation hit on the vast majority of cars including most Porsches btw. Depreciation has returned but many think their cars are still worth top money. Dealer spreads are increasing and reflecting their reduced appetite for risk and taking a loss on any particular car. Good example is a 3 month old 24 mile high spec GTRS CS new price £170k include first year road tax has a current trade in value of around just £128k from an OPC them selling it on at mid to top £140ks. In contrast one of the first flipped 4RS costing c £135k sold for £227k plus fees on CC early 2023. Edited by av185 on Tuesday 5th November 20:21 What the t!!ty f!!k is a “GTRS CS”?

This gives you an idea the spread required on a similar value car to yours. This Emira obtained a trade bid of just £41500 earlier this year. Car was top £80ks new. Likely retail value £60k.

CloudStuff said: What the t!!ty f!!k is a “GTRS CS”? Two down from a GT3 RS CS WP DS* deviated stitching

UpTheIron said: Why would an independent "offer nothing" - they prep and warranty cars too, plus might find it even harder to get warranty work done. What do you think would be a fair offer? What prep work is going to be due on a car with 13,500 miles on it. It was serviced a year ago. The cost of any warranty for a dealer cannot exceed 1-1.5K so you are still talking about a substantial profit margin. Independent (non Porsche specialist) dealers do not do any mechanical work outside of a service. At most they may do some cosmetic work which is usually a polish to tidy up the presentation.

CloudStuff said: What the t!!ty f!!k is a “GTRS CS”? Ha sorry typo meant GT4RS......

av185 said: This gives you an idea the spread required on a similar value car to yours. This Emira obtained a trade bid of just £41500 earlier this year. Car was top £80ks new. Likely retail value £60k. Got to disagree. You are cannot compare a Lotus to a Porsche. That is like comparing a PL player to a League One player. Different ball park.

Offer seems fair to me. It’s an 8yr+ old car, economy not doing great, winter coming. The margin on my trade-in in Aug was £10k on a £68k retail (so I got £58k) - 2yr old GTS 4.0 with 2.7k miles. Note that cars being up for sale means they haven’t actually sold, so unless you have access to sold prices, advertised prices are meaningless.

c3m said: Offer seems fair to me. It’s an 8yr+ old car, economy not doing great, winter coming. The margin on my trade-in in Aug was £10k on a £68k retail (so I got £58k) - 2yr old GTS 4.0 with 2.7k miles. Note that cars being up for sale means they haven’t actually sold, so unless you have access to sold prices, advertised prices are meaningless. You make an interesting point about up for sale vs sold. However you can get a ball park of what the market is doing based on an overall spread of prices.

I agree in terms of some driving dynamics. But the spreads are similar as I demonstrated with the very desirable GT4RS example. Heres another

^^^ that is on a very desirable 2023 GT3 Touring costing c £190k.

TownIdiot said: Maybe it's just me but I don't think paying out the best part of 50k in the hope of making around 10k is that outrageous. Me neither. For the risk and hassle involved plus taxes - seems pretty reasonable offer.

FrancisA said: You make an interesting point about up for sale vs sold. However you can get a ball park of what the market is doing based on an overall spread of prices. I agree - it’s a good signal. The trouble is when there’s a market adjustment, there’s usually a lag until prices find a new equilibrium. In any case, good luck with the sale.

av185 said: ^^^ that is on a very desirable 2023 GT3 Touring costing c £190k. So are we all mugs paying what we do for these cars? Harry recently did a video on this point (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs0-G2vIWiU). The price of new cars is becoming unrealistic and is not reflected in second hand values.

c3m said: FrancisA said: You make an interesting point about up for sale vs sold. However you can get a ball park of what the market is doing based on an overall spread of prices. I agree - it’s a good signal. The trouble is when there’s a market adjustment, there’s usually a lag until prices find a new equilibrium. In any case, good luck with the sale. Thanks but TBH I think I will just hold onto it. Great car, low mileage and last of the NA engines. I cannot drive it to it's capacity on the road so I think I need to stop chasing the wind. Classical first world problem.

av185 said: ^^^ that is on a very desirable 2023 GT3 Touring costing c £190k. FYI - £158K OTR

FrancisA said: Thanks but TBH I think I will just hold onto it. Great car, low mileage and last of the NA engines. I cannot drive it to it's capacity on the road so I think I need to stop chasing the wind. Classical first world problem. Seems wise. FWIW, if I’m buying a 911, I’d be avoiding anything turbocharged (all these people with blown turbos, seems like a question of when not if) and nothing with centrelocks (pointless style over function - if 5 studs work for most non-hardcore Ferraris, it’s good enough for a Porsche). So I think there will always be a market for your car. Out of interest, why are you considering selling the car?

Do you know the spec?

c3m said: FrancisA said: Thanks but TBH I think I will just hold onto it. Great car, low mileage and last of the NA engines. I cannot drive it to it's capacity on the road so I think I need to stop chasing the wind. Classical first world problem. Seems wise. FWIW, if I’m buying a 911, I’d be avoiding anything turbocharged (all these people with blown turbos, seems like a question of when not if) and nothing with centrelocks (pointless style over function - if 5 studs work for most non-hardcore Ferraris, it’s good enough for a Porsche). So I think there will always be a market for your car. Out of interest, why are you considering selling the car? I came from a SL63 and had always planned to buy an AMG GTC. However the SL caught fire, it was fixed under insurance and this Porsche came up for sale with an OPC and so I decided to pull the trigger. The Porsche has been a revelation in the driving experience department. I have enjoyed the Porsche with trips about including my usual to Les Mans but the AMG GTC is beginning to look tasty with current prices. Other previous owners of Porsches have said the AMG GTC is as sublime in the handling department so I am keen to find out. Having said that I am seriously concerned about the comparative values of the AMG GTC compared to the Porsche. I believe the Porsche will hold better over time. The only other car I would consider is the 3.8 GT3. However issues with the engines frighten me. Your point about the NA engines is on point. And I do wonder if the older Porsches will start to be more in demand over time with the nanny electronics and migration to TFTs. Edited by FrancisA on Tuesday 5th November 21:18

av185 said: Do you know the spec? Apologies - just checked the spec, £152841 plus OTR.

£10k margin less VAT = £8k £8k margin less stocking cost, for say 6 months (being cautious, some sell quickly some sit for a year) = 4%*45k = circa £1.5k Margin is now £6.5k Some small tidying up, say £500 = £6k Now allow for the automatic 6 months warranty given by every dealer on every UK car, that's gotta be another grand in terms of risk or cost = £5k Add a small discount from the offer price to sell it, say £2k, margin is now £3k. Now pay the salesperson and the showroom rent/lights/electric etc So now the margin is £3k-£5k on a car that's also depreciating at probably £500 per month. Suddenly it's not all looking like roses is it? I know these numbers are not all 100% accurate, but it's a lot harder to be a dealer now in a falling market with higher financing costs, than it was 1-2 years. Luckily 911s are very liquid, the dealer spread would likely be more on a Ferrari or Aston.

Was this the only figure you obtained from this single dealer? There could be other things at play, such as their stock level, and the price they have offered you is the price that works for them. As others have said, we’re coming up to a time of year where big ticket items such as German sports cars are not in high demand as buyers wait for Christmas etc. Have you looked at bids from Motorway, WBAC, Carwow?

Guyr said: £10k margin less VAT = £8k £8k margin less stocking cost, for say 6 months (being cautious, some sell quickly some sit for a year) = 4%*45k = circa £1.5k Good luck getting finance at 4%. I think that's the biggest thing people forget is that these dealers will have a lot of debt to support the business so they need the spread to make sure they can cover their own financing

Discombobulate said: My understanding is the warranty is only transferable when sold to a private buyer OR to an OPC. So no mark up / added value to independent? Correct. Porsche warranties only transfer between private buyers. An official Porsche dealer could add a warranty of course.

Can’t see a opc working to a 10 to 12k margin on a 991. I would imagine they would want 15k plus nowadays to cover prep, warranty, business running costs, wages etc. How much do you think it’s worth at trade? Might we worth putting it up for sale privately with at least a years porsche warranty and serviced up to date at 5k above your trade bid.

I've sold a few cars privately (60k+) but never greedy and they sell quickly, feels like private sellers typically take £2k off the retail price and hope that's enough. I keep looking for a 992 but dealers seem a bit high and can't find a sensible private seller.

GT4RS said: Can’t see a opc working to a 10 to 12k margin on a 991. I would imagine they would want 15k plus nowadays to cover prep, warranty, business running costs, wages etc. How much do you think it’s worth at trade? Might we worth putting it up for sale privately with at least a years porsche warranty and serviced up to date at 5k above your trade bid. I am going to keep it. It does what is says on the tin and this is a first world problem.

A friend traded his PTS GT3 recently to an OPC they put it up with a £22k cash margin on it, I have another friend that is a used car dealer he prefers a turns and earns strategy, of having less margin but a higher velocity. The issue with the OPs position is he thinks they are taking too much margin, my friend would make half that but he'd still be looking to buy it for the same price so it would make no difference to the buy price offered.

p.snell said: Good luck getting finance at 4%. I think that's the biggest thing people forget is that these dealers will have a lot of debt to support the business so they need the spread to make sure they can cover their own financing My assumption was 8% funding rate for 6 months = 4% cost

If you think about it sensibly what other 8 year old car retains over 50% of its MSRP? Thats a very fair offer IMO. I agree though with sentiment just keep and use its barely run in.

3 years or so ago (I know a different time, different market) I had a trade offer of £63k on my 981 gt4. I sold it privately to the first person who viewed for £73k. I know garages need to make a profit and it’s an expensive business. But all the ones iv dealt with just seam like sharks and init to rip you off.

IMI A said: If you think about it sensibly what other 8 year old car retains over 50% of its MSRP? Thats a very fair offer IMO. I agree though with sentiment just keep and use its barely run in.

FrancisA said: I can understand an OPC offering 10-12K below the market value given the prep work and warranty but an independent dealer who offers nothing.......that is what I am referring to as derisory. I also believe it is dependent on the independent dealer. If they are a Porsche specialist they obviously understand the market better than a general all make car dealer. OPC prep work I don't think is anything special and they certainly have access to parts at a massively discounted rate. I'd say a big margin if anything makes more sense at a good independent given the risks and costs they will incur. Anyway, it's not a remotely derisory offer. If you want a private sale price, you'll need to sell it privately. Expecting a private sale price (or anything close to that) from a dealer is totally unrealistic. .

Hey OP, I would chuck it on here and AT for a few weeks and see what happens.

Yep I could see it making £55-£56k privately with that mileage and the extended warranty. Sounds like a nice car but maybe the wrong time of the year to achieve max money. End of Feb 25 a good time to start marketing and it won't lose anything between now and then. They're great cars.

Why not Sale Or Return with a dealer? Car seeks at market rate minus garages commission

IMI A said: Yep I could see it making £55-£56k privately with that mileage and the extended warranty. Sounds like a nice car but maybe the wrong time of the year to achieve max money. End of Feb 25 a good time to start marketing and it won't lose anything between now and then. They're great cars. Good point. More so given it is a C2S Cab. It was the temptation of the AMG GTC prices that tempted me to consider a sale. I will wait till 2nd quarter of next year.

soxboy said: Have you looked at bids from Motorway, WBAC, Carwow? This!

I wouldn’t have thought £10k was too egregious when they need to fully prepare it, fix anything to upkeep the warranty, and pay the financing whilst it sits on their forecourt (if they even sell it themselves, more likely they punt the package immediately). I recently received an offer >£20k below market value for my 911 when inquiring about a GT3. A later check showed the price offered was the exact WBAC offer

Mark V GTD said: soxboy said: Have you looked at bids from Motorway, WBAC, Carwow? This! +1 When selling my Mustang recently (to buy a 911) got offered £5k more via CarWow than WBAC. Dealer offer was close to WBAC.

Agreed. Recently got ~18% more through CarWow than the trade in offer at an OPC, which was also close to the WBAC online valuation. You do some leg work with CarWow / Motorway but for a reasonable uplift in monies received.

Really interesting and useful thread but I do notice a bit of a pattern with sellers who.. - Expect an unrealistic price - Complain about dealer markups - Say they will sell privately - Realise what a PITA it is to sell privately - Say they will keep it anyway Nothing personal Francis, everyone hates losing money! I don't live in the UK any more but think you have it good with sites like WBAC which at least provide a convenient way of establishing a price floor. Where I live we have nothing like that so the only benchmark is dealer prices, and as a consequence private sellers are utterly delusional, advertising their cars for months at dealer prices. Doesn't help anyone because if you need a quick sale and price it reasonably your car looks like there's something wrong with it. I sold a well-specced shopping car recently for 10k when the for sale prices were all 14-15k, still took over a month of dealing with tyre kickers and time wasters. If I want to sell fast I use an auction.

HundredthIdiot said: Really interesting and useful thread but I do notice a bit of a pattern with sellers who.. - Expect an unrealistic price - Complain about dealer markups - Say they will sell privately - Realise what a PITA it is to sell privately - Say they will keep it anyway Nothing personal Francis, everyone hates losing money! I don't live in the UK any more but think you have it good with sites like WBAC which at least provide a convenient way of establishing a price floor. Where I live we have nothing like that so the only benchmark is dealer prices, and as a consequence private sellers are utterly delusional, advertising their cars for months at dealer prices. Doesn't help anyone because if you need a quick sale and price it reasonably your car looks like there's something wrong with it. I sold a well-specced shopping car recently for 10k when the for sale prices were all 14-15k, still took over a month of dealing with tyre kickers and time wasters. If I want to sell fast I use an auction. No worries nothing personal taken. As Wenger once said “everyone thinks their wife is the most beautiful woman in the world”. My car spec is 991.1 C2S cab with 1 previous owner and 13,600 on the clock. Full OPC service history and under Porsche warranty. Maybe I am deluded but to my mind if I was buying a car like that I would not expect it to be valued 10K under the market price. The reason being there is no work for an independent to do. It is not due a service till next year. They have the warranty which gets passed onto the next owner (if sold within a restricted period) and the Porsche warranty is worth its weight in gold. At the end of the day what I think does not really matter........it is what the market is prepared to pay so I am better off keeping it or selling privately. I will be keeping it as it is really just a bored first world issue of having drunk from this cup and wanting to taste the next one. At this level I am driving one of the best sports cars in the world so I will just appreciate what I have. I have actually admired those people who keep their cars for years on years. I remember working with a German back in 2009 who had a Porsche. This was just after the crash. He told me that he did not under the Brits changing their cars every 2/3 years. In Germany they keep their cars for a decade. They believe if there is an issue just fix it and keep driving it. The cars are made for 100K. To back up his story I recall the German government came out with an incentive to get the German public to buy cars to kick start the economy.

FrancisA said: I have actually admired those people who keep their cars for years on years. I remember working with a German back in 2009 who had a Porsche. This was just after the crash. He told me that he did not under the Brits changing their cars every 2/3 years. In Germany they keep their cars for a decade. They believe if there is an issue just fix it and keep driving it. The cars are made for 100K. To back up his story I recall the German government came out with an incentive to get the German public to buy cars to kick start the economy. I don't feel that it's particularly admirable, but I tend to buy new with cash and keep my cars until at least 100k miles. I haven't had anything interesting in the last 20 years due to ludicrous local taxes but am now shopping for a GT3/4RS or restomodded 964 or well kept 993 and I expect to own it until I'm dead or can't drive any more. To re-purpose your wife metaphor, cars are only expensive when you change them

Honestly, I reckon a 10k spread sounds pretty reasonable at the minute. Would have been even more at an OPC

FrancisA said: HundredthIdiot said: Really interesting and useful thread but I do notice a bit of a pattern with sellers who.. - Expect an unrealistic price - Complain about dealer markups - Say they will sell privately - Realise what a PITA it is to sell privately - Say they will keep it anyway Nothing personal Francis, everyone hates losing money! I don't live in the UK any more but think you have it good with sites like WBAC which at least provide a convenient way of establishing a price floor. Where I live we have nothing like that so the only benchmark is dealer prices, and as a consequence private sellers are utterly delusional, advertising their cars for months at dealer prices. Doesn't help anyone because if you need a quick sale and price it reasonably your car looks like there's something wrong with it. I sold a well-specced shopping car recently for 10k when the for sale prices were all 14-15k, still took over a month of dealing with tyre kickers and time wasters. If I want to sell fast I use an auction. No worries nothing personal taken. As Wenger once said “everyone thinks their wife is the most beautiful woman in the world”. My car spec is 991.1 C2S cab with 1 previous owner and 13,600 on the clock. Full OPC service history and under Porsche warranty. Maybe I am deluded but to my mind if I was buying a car like that I would not expect it to be valued 10K under the market price. The reason being there is no work for an independent to do. It is not due a service till next year. They have the warranty which gets passed onto the next owner (if sold within a restricted period) and the Porsche warranty is worth its weight in gold. At the end of the day what I think does not really matter........it is what the market is prepared to pay so I am better off keeping it or selling privately. I will be keeping it as it is really just a bored first world issue of having drunk from this cup and wanting to taste the next one. At this level I am driving one of the best sports cars in the world so I will just appreciate what I have. I have actually admired those people who keep their cars for years on years. I remember working with a German back in 2009 who had a Porsche. This was just after the crash. He told me that he did not under the Brits changing their cars every 2/3 years. In Germany they keep their cars for a decade. They believe if there is an issue just fix it and keep driving it. The cars are made for 100K. To back up his story I recall the German government came out with an incentive to get the German public to buy cars to kick start the economy. I Do think you (Francis) are being delusional! It is winter. That 10k Is 8k after VAT. And will cost 2 k in interest for dealer to keep til spring. And then 1500 overheads. And 500 fettling. And risk. Before profit. Which is taxed… etc. I have a 981 Spyder I think is worth 65k retail. Low mileage and perfect. I’d be staggered if I could get more than £55k for it.

Billy_Whizzzz said: FrancisA said: HundredthIdiot said: Really interesting and useful thread but I do notice a bit of a pattern with sellers who.. - Expect an unrealistic price - Complain about dealer markups - Say they will sell privately - Realise what a PITA it is to sell privately - Say they will keep it anyway Nothing personal Francis, everyone hates losing money! I don't live in the UK any more but think you have it good with sites like WBAC which at least provide a convenient way of establishing a price floor. Where I live we have nothing like that so the only benchmark is dealer prices, and as a consequence private sellers are utterly delusional, advertising their cars for months at dealer prices. Doesn't help anyone because if you need a quick sale and price it reasonably your car looks like there's something wrong with it. I sold a well-specced shopping car recently for 10k when the for sale prices were all 14-15k, still took over a month of dealing with tyre kickers and time wasters. If I want to sell fast I use an auction. No worries nothing personal taken. As Wenger once said “everyone thinks their wife is the most beautiful woman in the world”. My car spec is 991.1 C2S cab with 1 previous owner and 13,600 on the clock. Full OPC service history and under Porsche warranty. Maybe I am deluded but to my mind if I was buying a car like that I would not expect it to be valued 10K under the market price. The reason being there is no work for an independent to do. It is not due a service till next year. They have the warranty which gets passed onto the next owner (if sold within a restricted period) and the Porsche warranty is worth its weight in gold. At the end of the day what I think does not really matter........it is what the market is prepared to pay so I am better off keeping it or selling privately. I will be keeping it as it is really just a bored first world issue of having drunk from this cup and wanting to taste the next one. At this level I am driving one of the best sports cars in the world so I will just appreciate what I have. I have actually admired those people who keep their cars for years on years. I remember working with a German back in 2009 who had a Porsche. This was just after the crash. He told me that he did not under the Brits changing their cars every 2/3 years. In Germany they keep their cars for a decade. They believe if there is an issue just fix it and keep driving it. The cars are made for 100K. To back up his story I recall the German government came out with an incentive to get the German public to buy cars to kick start the economy. I Do think you (Francis) are being delusional! It is winter. That 10k Is 8k after VAT. And will cost 2 k in interest for dealer to keep til spring. And then 1500 overheads. And 500 fettling. And risk. Before profit. Which is taxed… etc. I have a 981 Spyder I think is worth 65k retail. Low mileage and perfect. I’d be staggered if I could get more than £55k for it. “Everyone thinks their wife is the most beautiful".....that is the point of the delusion :-) And I agree winter is not the best time to be selling a cab

FrancisA said: My car spec is 991.1 C2S cab with 1 previous owner and 13,600 on the clock. Full OPC service history and under Porsche warranty. Having been searching for such a car this year (I bought a 991.1 C4S cab recently) the price is easily upper 50's for 25k mile examples and probably low 60's for yours. Probably a shade more through a dealer. It's a shame yours wasn't available when I was looking, I would have been interested. As an aside, I am not sure what 'work' a dealer would have to do to prep a low mileage well looked after car.

I don’t think I’ve read anything absurd on this thread….market has fundamentally changed in the last few months which means less cars are selling. When that happens “liquidity” reduces so dealers will want higher margins for stocking cars. As a seller you can do what the OP is doing and keep the car or go the SoR nooute or sell via auction or classifieds. One thing is for sure I would not want to be a car dealer right now…they have huge problems. They’re selling cars which a decent % of their long term customer base is rapidly losing interest in….prices are up, ownership costs are up and finance rates are up…and volumes are down. Even six months ago people didn’t expect new GT cars to be sitting at dealers at list price. Long winter ahead.

OPC probably trying to get as much ££ on trade ins of ICE cars to off set all the time they spend on EV prep, servicing, repairs and what ever else EV cars take time up in the servicing bays.

I am looking for a GT3 touring, a couple of good ones on the PH classifieds, but to expensive. So heads up on anything would be good>

I sold my car to Dynasty for £8k more than what my local OPC offered, I have found that an OPC has about £10k profit in a typical Porsche

Cheib said: I don’t think I’ve read anything absurd on this thread….market has fundamentally changed in the last few months which means less cars are selling. When that happens “liquidity” reduces so dealers will want higher margins for stocking cars. As a seller you can do what the OP is doing and keep the car or go the SoR nooute or sell via auction or classifieds. One thing is for sure I would not want to be a car dealer right now…they have huge problems. They’re selling cars which a decent % of their long term customer base is rapidly losing interest in….prices are up, ownership costs are up and finance rates are up…and volumes are down. Even six months ago people didn’t expect new GT cars to be sitting at dealers at list price. Long winter ahead. This. It’s back to where it was historically on GT cars, only this time the demographic demand has fallen off a cliff too. Low interest rates since 2009, times were great for the OPC. New demographic just aren’t as interested in cars so longer term there’s an even bigger issue for the manufacturers. Then there’s the EV circus too. Nightmare scenario.

EvoSid said: I sold my car to Dynasty for £8k more than what my local OPC offered, I have found that an OPC has about £10k profit in a typical Porsche Profit or margin?

It's worth noting that after prep/vat on the vat margin scheme/corp tax/dividend tax/personal tax 10k is actually 5k to the business and that's before overheads. Porsche do work on a minimum of 10k on this sort of car but they still need volume their overheads must be absolutely insane. I recently had a seller of a car have a pop at me first time this has ever happened because he thought I'd made 7 grand on his car (I didn't) but people just don't understand what's involved and particularly around the crazy levels of tax involved in selling cars literally half of the profit goes on the 3 types of tax that's applied to us every time we sell. 4 if you include NI.

fridaypassion said: It's worth noting that after prep/vat on the vat margin scheme/corp tax/dividend tax/personal tax 10k is actually 5k to the business and that's before overheads Corp tax and dividend tax are applied to profits and taking of profits, so not "before overheads".

Semantics

HundredthIdiot said: fridaypassion said: It's worth noting that after prep/vat on the vat margin scheme/corp tax/dividend tax/personal tax 10k is actually 5k to the business and that's before overheads Corp tax and dividend tax are applied to profits and taking of profits, so not "before overheads". …and personal tax is another step further away.

My experience. Traded my 991.1 Turbo S in Jul-24 for a ‘73 plate 992.1 T (demonstrator). The T was very well specced (£130k list), had done 2k miles. I paid £115k. I chop and change a bit and have only done 2k miles in T so asked my OPC about SOR. He reckoned they would return me £86k. I guess there are lots of contributory factors: winter, 992.2 release, and economy etc but a bitter pill nonetheless. I have kept the car !!

rdj001 said: My experience. Traded my 991.1 Turbo S in Jul-24 for a ‘73 plate 992.1 T (demonstrator). The T was very well specced (£130k list), had done 2k miles. I paid £115k. I chop and change a bit and have only done 2k miles in T so asked my OPC about SOR. He reckoned they would return me £86k. I guess there are lots of contributory factors: winter, 992.2 release, and economy etc but a bitter pill nonetheless. I have kept the car !! Ouch. Why do we do this to ourselves? Heart over head! Enjoy the car.

So nearly 30k depreciation in less than 6 months, I thought £20k was bad enough.

rdj001 said: My experience. Traded my 991.1 Turbo S in Jul-24 for a ‘73 plate 992.1 T (demonstrator). The T was very well specced (£130k list), had done 2k miles. I paid £115k. I chop and change a bit and have only done 2k miles in T so asked my OPC about SOR. He reckoned they would return me £86k. I guess there are lots of contributory factors: winter, 992.2 release, and economy etc but a bitter pill nonetheless. I have kept the car !! I'm hearing this from a lot of people at the moment. Some people just won't have any choice. Manufacturers like Porsche will need to start looking at rrp's simple as that. The new 911 has been rushed out and they are trying to lure people with a very mild update. Is anyone really rushing out to buy any Porsche now?

FrancisA said: I was offered 47K for my 991.1 C2S Cab with 13,500 on the clock and with a 1 year warranty with Porsche. The cheapest equivalent on auto trader is selling for 58K. I suppose 1) That 58k car will go for 55k unless the buyer is a muppet or just isn't bothered by money. 2) If the dealer advertises your car for 58k, sells it for 55k (assuming the buyer doesn't have a trade-in to make sums easier), and then spends another £1k-2k sorting stuff out post-sale, profits get smaller and smaller. 3) You can sell it privately for 58k and there's nothing stopping you so crack on!

Also trying to find a touring but no one will do a deal. Cars hanging around for months. Same with gt4rs Porsche dealers removing them from auto trader and just leaving them listed on the pre approved.

I might sell my 997 RS and Porsche quoted 7% plus VAT to sell it on SOR [plus a minimum Euro fee if it does not sell, from memory 2.5k plus VAT or sth like that]. My independent dealer also wants to make money on it, not specified yet how much, but probably not much less on a SOR basis plus I assume a minimum Euro figure to make it worth his while. I have no idea what a trade-in price would be, but I assume a long long way off the prices listed on mobile.de

We have experienced the market not long ago when selling our Gt3. Our opc where we have bought and traded a few porsches wanted sor only, they'd put it up for 120 and we 'should' get 112. Another local opc offered 105 and could buy straight away.(they hadn't seen the car) A place where a 'sheik' runs it had a few emails back and forth and offered a paltry 90k for it without seeing it! (This is/was an immaculate car!) We buy any car and those types were around 102. Then found a guy in a porsche magazine, he knew some dealers, he was like a middle man and they offered a price of 106, told him all the spec etc, They turned up and reading between the lines he hadn't told them the full spec, they tried every which way to find faults e.g. a bit of mud was corrosion, a stonechip had hit the ppf, a tiny mark on the rear wing, the tyres were worn on the edges yadda yadda. They bidded us in the balls down by 2k.!! Photos were going back and forth , dealer to middle man , middle man phoned us etc etc. Eventually I got the keys back and in a polite way said it was going back in the garage and thankyou for coming. Was starting the car up and moving it back and more phonecalls. The dealer knew I would not sell at that price and didn't really need to sell it so eventually paid the full agreed amount there and then. Within 2 days it was on their website for 120 and by the end of the week it was sold.!! Sometimes you have to stand your ground!. It was a very cheap immaculate Gt3 to start with and they knew that. To then work it between themselves to try and knock another 2k off was a bit out of order and I wouldn't be using the guy again when we sell the turbo s or macan turbo!! Edited by ollie plymsoles on Monday 11th November 10:07

ollie plymsoles said: We have experienced the market not long ago when selling our Gt3. Our opc where we have bought and traded a few porsches wanted sor only, they'd put it up for 120 and we 'should' get 112. Another local opc offered 105 and could buy straight away.(they hadn't seen the car) A place where a 'sheik' runs it had a few emails back and forth and offered a paltry 90k for it without seeing it! (This is/was an immaculate car!) We buy any car and those types were around 102. Then found a guy in a porsche magazine, he knew some dealers, he was like a middle man and they offered a price of 106, told him all the spec etc, They turned up and reading between the lines he hadn't told them the full spec, they tried every which way to find faults e.g. a bit of mud was corrosion, a stonechip had hit the ppf, a tiny mark on the rear wing, the tyres were worn on the edges yadda yadda. They bidded us in the balls down by 2k.!! Photos were going back and forth , dealer to middle man , middle man phoned us etc etc. Eventually I got the keys back and in a polite way said it was going back in the garage and thankyou for coming. Was starting the car up and moving it back and more phonecalls. The dealer knew I would not sell at that price and didn't really need to sell it so eventually paid the full agreed amount there and then. Within 2 days it was on their website for 120 and by the end of the week it was sold.!! Sometimes you have to stand your ground!. It was a very cheap immaculate Gt3 to start with and they knew that. To then work it between themselves to try and knock another 2k off was a bit out of order and I wouldn't be using the guy again when we sell the turbo s or macan turbo!! Edited by ollie plymsoles on Monday 11th November 10:07 At least you got there in the end.

FrancisA said: My car spec is 991.1 C2S cab with 1 previous owner and 13,600 on the clock. Full OPC service history and under Porsche warranty. The reason being there is no work for an independent to do. The dealer doesn't know there is no work to be done though, he only has your word on that. The dealer can't take it in for any works with Porsche either, being a dealer. The dealer can't actually sell the car with warranty either, although probably will. But the big thing is, most lenders that everyday folk will use will not lend on a car any older than 10 years old. And no chance on PCP as they get this old. So you are left with high street lenders up to £30k and still over 7% apr, specialists that may lend you 75-80% but you will need to pay it back over 60 or even 48 months, and that starts to make it look very expensive. £55k over 48 months at current rates is now £1350 a month. If you look on Porsche you can buy a 2020 992 Cab for £88k with 6k miles on it. With £10 deposit that is £1330 a month. If you were to PCP through fortitude you are looking at £950 a month with £40k balloon. So really, you are after a cash buyer for yours, or someone who has sold their car and will borrow say £25k from a bank where they will get a better rate, which really narrows the market. With 992 cabs, at OPCs hitting the mid to late £80k mark, is a 10 year old 991 actually worth £65k? For anyone financing, the newer car works out cheaper, sure they will owe more at the end, but are those buyers fussed about that? Now personally I would rather the cheaper car and own it after 4 years, but most don't want that from a car these days unfortunately.

Robbo66 said: So nearly 30k depreciation in less than 6 months, I thought £20k was bad enough. I expect It would have been 30k in 1 day if the person that bought it wanted a bid on it the very next day after buying it.

ollie plymsoles said: We have experienced the market not long ago when selling our Gt3. Our opc where we have bought and traded a few porsches wanted sor only, they'd put it up for 120 and we 'should' get 112. Another local opc offered 105 and could buy straight away.(they hadn't seen the car) A place where a 'sheik' runs it had a few emails back and forth and offered a paltry 90k for it without seeing it! (This is/was an immaculate car!) We buy any car and those types were around 102. Then found a guy in a porsche magazine, he knew some dealers, he was like a middle man and they offered a price of 106, told him all the spec etc, They turned up and reading between the lines he hadn't told them the full spec, they tried every which way to find faults e.g. a bit of mud was corrosion, a stonechip had hit the ppf, a tiny mark on the rear wing, the tyres were worn on the edges yadda yadda. They bidded us in the balls down by 2k.!! Photos were going back and forth , dealer to middle man , middle man phoned us etc etc. Eventually I got the keys back and in a polite way said it was going back in the garage and thankyou for coming. Was starting the car up and moving it back and more phonecalls. The dealer knew I would not sell at that price and didn't really need to sell it so eventually paid the full agreed amount there and then. Within 2 days it was on their website for 120 and by the end of the week it was sold.!! Sometimes you have to stand your ground!. It was a very cheap immaculate Gt3 to start with and they knew that. To then work it between themselves to try and knock another 2k off was a bit out of order and I wouldn't be using the guy again when we sell the turbo s or macan turbo!! If I'm reading that correclty, did you not think the £105K offer from the local OPC was genuine? You seemed to go through a lot of hassle for another £1K.

Ed.Neumann said: FrancisA said: My car spec is 991.1 C2S cab with 1 previous owner and 13,600 on the clock. Full OPC service history and under Porsche warranty. The reason being there is no work for an independent to do. The dealer doesn't know there is no work to be done though, he only has your word on that. The dealer can't take it in for any works with Porsche either, being a dealer. The dealer can't actually sell the car with warranty either, although probably will. But the big thing is, most lenders that everyday folk will use will not lend on a car any older than 10 years old. And no chance on PCP as they get this old. So you are left with high street lenders up to £30k and still over 7% apr, specialists that may lend you 75-80% but you will need to pay it back over 60 or even 48 months, and that starts to make it look very expensive. £55k over 48 months at current rates is now £1350 a month. If you look on Porsche you can buy a 2020 992 Cab for £88k with 6k miles on it. With £10 deposit that is £1330 a month. If you were to PCP through fortitude you are looking at £950 a month with £40k balloon. So really, you are after a cash buyer for yours, or someone who has sold their car and will borrow say £25k from a bank where they will get a better rate, which really narrows the market. With 992 cabs, at OPCs hitting the mid to late £80k mark, is a 10 year old 991 actually worth £65k? For anyone financing, the newer car works out cheaper, sure they will owe more at the end, but are those buyers fussed about that? Now personally I would rather the cheaper car and own it after 4 years, but most don't want that from a car these days unfortunately. Great analysis Ed. I had forgotten about the age of the vehicle being an issue for financing but you are on the money there. It is a strange one as you would have thought mileage is a more relevant marker. As I mentioned earlier I am going to hold onto it and eventually sell it on the open market in a year or 2. It will still be under 20K miles so it will be an enthusiast who is going to be likely buyer.

Ferrari and Aston dealers margins make Porsche look generous

Hi, I’ve been reading this thread with great interest and admire the knowledge of you guys on here. Anyhow I’m in the market as a cash buyer for a 992 4S or a GTS …. Must be a Targa as I want to use it for European trips next year (I don’t want a LHD as it will be used in the UK also) What I’m after is someone who is looking to sell and wants to receive more than a dealer offers them… I certainly won’t be looking at paying dealer prices particularly in this current climate! So I can be contacted on grahampaske@btinternet if you have something to offer. Many thanks. As a footnote I would love to take my recently restored 930 but my other half wouldn’t be able to get enough luggage in that 😁