Cup 2 - Pilot Sport 4S - Pilot Sport S5 - Page 2 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

I really do not like the Cup 2 tyres on my Spyder (harsh ride and lack of wet surface grip), so will be looking to change to the PS 4S when the tread remaining makes it justifiable. I recently noticed that the S5 version of the Pilot Sport is now coming through on new cars. So, 2 questions: 1. Any real world comparisons between the Cup 2 and 4S, here (or on-line)? 2. Any experiences yet with the S5? If the S5 is a significant improvement over the 4S, I will probably wait until they are available in the after market.

My first 718 Spyder I ordered on Cup2’s and I did a couple of track days with it. My second one I ordered with “normal” tyres, it’s an option on the Spyder, and it came on PS4s. Happy days. I also ran that car on winters which were Michelin Alpin 5s. The PS4s were a great all round tyre, less sharp than the Cup 2s but night and day better than the winters as you would expect. The winters were noticeably more absorbing of bumps but the wooly steering feel and lack of precision were not worth the extra comfort. To be fair in summer temperatures there was barely any difference between the Cup2 and the PS4 in normal road driving. Obviously in winter the PS4 is a far better option. Not had PS5 yet but I would guess a small improvement all round?

Sport S5 is available in the correct sizes although they are not N-rated if that is important to you. There is also the issue of trying to find a replacement if you are on a roadtrip, availability is sparse and it is going to be a special order item for some time I suspect. Currently only available as an OE fitment. Edited by M11rph on Sunday 18th February 17:52

Tony B2 said: So, 2 questions: 1. Any real world comparisons between the Cup 2 and 4S, here (or on-line)? 2. Any experiences yet with the S5? Replied on a thread here about dailying a GT4: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... Most relevant bit for you Tony would be the following: "I have a 718 GT4 Manual - Clubsport with the carbon buckets. It's my only car/my daily (occasionally use my gf's mk8 Fiesta if it's a very short trip). The main thing that's totally transformed its 'livable-ness' is swapping the Cup 2s out for PS4S - significantly less road noise, noticeably better ride, and much more confidence inspiring in the cold/wet. I'd go as far as to say the PS4S are better in summer too, you just can't drive a GT4 hard enough on the road to keep proper heat in the Cup2s. Anyway - assuming you swap to some road-biased tyres you'll be set." I did a few thousand miles on the Cup2s and was not a fan - noisy, fidgety ride, poor grip/feel in the cold and uninspiring bordering on dangerous adding rain to the above. Swapped to the PS4S in November and, after a couple of hundred miles 'bedding in'(?), are an order of magnitude more livable whilst giving up nothing for on road performance (I don't track my car). I can't give you any opinions on the S5 I'm afraid. What I will add is I intentionally chose to go non N marked on the PS4S for 2 reasons: -Non N are A rated wet grip vs B for the N rated tyres - The N rated PS4S seemed to be having some negative reviews on porsche forums (rennlist etc.) with rumblings of Chinese factories and poor quality control etc. Most people said the non N rated seemed to be unaffected. Anyway, hope the above was handy.

I understand the PS4's in N rating have a different compound on the shoulder than the non N rated versions.

What pressures are you running the Cup 2's at? I found the Cup 2's were more comfy than the PS4s in the summer, but they should be run at lower pressures than the standard tyres, they have a stiffer sidewall so can cope with it, if you run them as high as PS4S there is not enough bite and it makes the car feel a little skittish, even more so when temps drop. I ran PS4s at 38 rear and 34 front but the Cup 2 at 32 rear and 29 front. That is cold pressures, this also means they get to temp quicker, run them at the same pressure as the PS4S and it is hard to get temperature into them at all. So definitely try them at lower pressures if you haven't, the difference is not subtle.

Reviews suggest Conti Sport 7 is the new enchmark if they are available in the right sizes.. https://www.evo.co.uk/tyre-reviews/18309/best-car-...

Edmundo2 said: Reviews suggest Conti Sport 7 is the new enchmark if they are available in the right sizes.. https://www.evo.co.uk/tyre-reviews/18309/best-car-... my local tyre fitter recommended them over the PS4S and he has been putting them on a lot of high performance cars, but they're not available in N-rated if that's important to you.

Just to add to the theme, when the weather/occasion suits, I've got PS4S's on my Cayman GTS 4.0, and, Cup 2s on my 981 GT4. (Although neither on either of them this time of year, too cold and wet. 18" Pirelli Sotto Zeroes on the GTS, as it's a daily drive; P Zeroes on the GT4.) Cup 2s are far from the worst "track oriented" tyre I've tried, but they have their limitations as road tyres. Sounds like you have found that out already. On track in the wet, I'm actually a lot more confident with P Zeroes. The Cup 2s definitely don't like cold or wet, and both cold and wet at the same time, even worse! But to give them their due, they'll take some abuse and overheating on a dry track, and bounce back with a bit more scrubbing in. Just about exhausted my second set, but I'll be getting a third, and will try to look after them a bit better. PS4S's were a really welcome surprise when the 4.0 GTS came with them fitted last year, and I have to say, I'm really impressed with them as summer, or even 3 season road tyres. I'm told they are actually pretty good as a track-day tyre too. Not amazing in the wet, but far more predictable than the Cup 2s, and have not given me any nasty surprises so far. Ride, noise and road feel also really acceptable. In fact I thought pretty good back before the changeover to "Winters" last year. Quite excited by the idea of Spring and getting them back on the car if I'm honest. I'm very "N-rated" in my tyre experiments for the usual reasons. I'm sure there are others available that might be a little better, but there are plenty of good tyres available for most purposes within Porsche recommendations. Hope that helps Liam

Ive just fitted the Conti Sport Contact 7's after being previously running PS4S. I'm very impressed with the Conti's

The PS5 is a replacement for the PS4 not the PS4S. The PS4S is categorised as an Ultra High performance tyre with stiffer sidewalls whereas the PS4 and PS5 are High performance tyres.

Crudeoink said: Ive just fitted the Conti Sport Contact 7's after being previously running PS4S. I'm very impressed with the Conti's How is the steering feel? This is one area I feel Michelin are falling well behind, some of the others from Bridgestone have been well ahead in this regard. The PS4S, and the Cup 2 for that matter, have a bit of a numb turn in feel.

FriedMarsBar said: The PS5 is a replacement for the PS4 not the PS4S. The PS4S is categorised as an Ultra High performance tyre with stiffer sidewalls whereas the PS4 and PS5 are High performance tyres. Pilot Sport S 5 is different to the Pilot Sport 5S.

Ed.Neumann said: FriedMarsBar said: The PS5 is a replacement for the PS4 not the PS4S. The PS4S is categorised as an Ultra High performance tyre with stiffer sidewalls whereas the PS4 and PS5 are High performance tyres. Pilot Sport S 5 is different to the Pilot Sport 5S. Glad to see Michelin haven't abandoned their aim to achieve maximum confusion on online forums with their product names.

FriedMarsBar said: The PS5 is a replacement for the PS4 not the PS4S. The PS4S is categorised as an Ultra High performance tyre with stiffer sidewalls whereas the PS4 and PS5 are High performance tyres. Edited as I read the original post wrong. The PS S5 is supposed to be the direct replacement for the P4S but I don't think you can buy it, its only available on new cars. Apparently there may be yet another tyre coming out to replace the PS4S in the aftermarket. Edited by CLK-GTR on Tuesday 20th February 10:27

said: Michelin changed the nomenclature: - PS4 was substituted by the new PS5 - The “Pilot Sport 4S” was substituted by the new “Pilot Sport S5”. So now it’s PSS5, not PS5S.

Many thanks for the helpful and insightful responses above. I do intend to stick with the N-rated options, due to warranty implications. I have no expectation of significant track use - maybe a couple of laps of The Ring if I can find the courage (I do know it very well, but have only ever driven rental cars there). Driving your own car there is a bit different.... The S5 does look interesting (based on Tyre Reviews video of nearly a year ago) as it appears to have a "Connect" option. Currently I am setting pressures to achieve 29/32 when warmed up - takes 5 - 10 miles in my experience.

CLK-GTR said: Edited as I read the original post wrong. The PS S5 is supposed to be the direct replacement for the P4S but I don't think you can buy it, its only available on new cars. Apparently there may be yet another tyre coming out to replace the PS4S in the aftermarket. Edited by CLK-GTR on Tuesday 20th February 10:27 Thanks, I thought I was up to speed on these tyres :-) It would appear that PS S5 tyres only come in 20" and 21"

Ed.Neumann said: I think there was a thread on here recently saying the warranty needs N rates any more? N rated tyres no longer a Porsche requirement AFAIK

Ed.Neumann said: How is the steering feel? This is one area I feel Michelin are falling well behind, some of the others from Bridgestone have been well ahead in this regard. The PS4S, and the Cup 2 for that matter, have a bit of a numb turn in feel. Turn in feels better, a bit more feedback and the steering loads up nicely, doesnt feel as 'wooly' as the Michelins. That said, I haven't had a chance to really push them or play around with pressures much and I havent driven them in the wet yet. I was surprised with the ride quality though, I had read that the SC7's give a slightly harsher ride so was expecting it to be a bit crashy but its not really any different.

Tony B2 said: Many thanks for the helpful and insightful responses above. I do intend to stick with the N-rated options, due to warranty implications. I have no expectation of significant track use - maybe a couple of laps of The Ring if I can find the courage (I do know it very well, but have only ever driven rental cars there). Driving your own car there is a bit different.... The S5 does look interesting (based on Tyre Reviews video of nearly a year ago) as it appears to have a "Connect" option. Currently I am setting pressures to achieve 29/32 when warmed up - takes 5 - 10 miles in my experience. I think there was a thread on here recently saying the warranty doesn't needs N rates any more? Edited by Ed.Neumann on Tuesday 20th February 16:11

Crudeoink said: Turn in feels better, a bit more feedback and the steering loads up nicely, doesnt feel as 'wooly' as the Michelins. That said, I haven't had a chance to really push them or play around with pressures much and I havent driven them in the wet yet. I was surprised with the ride quality though, I had read that the SC7's give a slightly harsher ride so was expecting it to be a bit crashy but its not really any different. Nice. Thanks for that. Update again when you have a bit more of a play will you? Michelin are great at everything, other than steering feel mho, they just aren't fun as they don't feel precise off centre. It feels like you have taken off all camber and puts huge amount of toe in on the geo with the Michelins. The early N rated PS2 didn't, the N rated Bridgestones didn't either, so would be nice to get back on a tyre that feels sharp again.

I've had non N rated Michelin PS4S tyres on my 981 GT4 for over three years now and the car has been serviced, MOT'd and had the warranty renewed without any questions about non N rated tyres by Porsche Colchester. I do have another set of N rated Michelin PS4S for my GT4 in the garage should I ever need to put them on.

Note that Porsche might still sell you the warranty with the wrong non N rated tyres but when you come to claim, they might take a different view. IMHO.

Could I just point out that Porsche approved tyres are N marked, not N rated. "Rated" or "rating" in reference to a tyre relates to maximum speed, e.g. “H rated” is equivalent to a maximum speed of 130 mph. An "N rated tyre" therefore means a tyre capable of a maximum speed of 87mph and not a tyre approved by Porsche. I thank you.

The Pilot Sport S5 is now available via Michelin's UK website. https://www.michelin.co.uk/auto/tyres/michelin-pil... At present a limited number of sizes, and appears to be aimed at Mercedes. I guess, given a bit more time, the N marked variety will become available via this route.

HoneyBadgerUK said: What I will add is I intentionally chose to go non N marked on the PS4S for 2 reasons: -Non N are A rated wet grip vs B for the N rated tyres - The N rated PS4S seemed to be having some negative reviews on porsche forums (rennlist etc.) with rumblings of Chinese factories and poor quality control etc. Most people said the non N rated seemed to be unaffected. It has been my belief for 20 years that Porsche ask tyre manufacturers to tweak their tyre compounds to achieve the N marker. They do so because they want better dry weather performance because it helps their track times so the journalists can quote quicker Ring lap times than their competitors. Totally unverified so just my conspiracy theory mind getting involved. I did notice a few years ago that some of these tyres did have a difference in their wet ratings as mentioned and this made me feel more confident about voicing my conspiracy theory in public. I do wander why no one measures wet lap times. I would be interested in that. Possibly more than dry lap times.

I researched the Continental options and only rears were N rated ... but it's interesting to see the weight difference ...

ATM said: HoneyBadgerUK said: What I will add is I intentionally chose to go non N marked on the PS4S for 2 reasons: -Non N are A rated wet grip vs B for the N rated tyres - The N rated PS4S seemed to be having some negative reviews on porsche forums (rennlist etc.) with rumblings of Chinese factories and poor quality control etc. Most people said the non N rated seemed to be unaffected. It has been my belief for 20 years that Porsche ask tyre manufacturers to tweak their tyre compounds to achieve the N marker. They do so because they want better dry weather performance because it helps their track times so the journalists can quote quicker Ring lap times than their competitors. Totally unverified so just my conspiracy theory mind getting involved. I did notice a few years ago that some of these tyres did have a difference in their wet ratings as mentioned and this made me feel more confident about voicing my conspiracy theory in public. I do wander why no one measures wet lap times. I would be interested in that. Possibly more than dry lap times. 100% they will as do all the major OEM’s. It’s noticeable how come cold weather the front tyres judder on close to full lock at parking speeds on any Porsche….seems much more prone than other makes to me. Often see people saying it’s the Ackerman effect…it’s not it is the compound of tyres Porsche specify…as soon as I put winter tyres on my cars it disappears. The N “rated” tyre for the Cayenne Turbo GT are incredibly soft….they are rated at 80, Cup 2’s on a GT3 are 180 and PS4S are 300. That’s how they get the ludicrous lap times.

Brace yourselves I'm going to be controversal. PS4S can over heat on the road and track if you a pressing on and the grip drops off a cliff, wet is OK but not amazing once you are past the first mm or two on the tread. Non-N marked by the way. My next road tyres won't be PS4S despite being a big fan of them previously. Good thread though, I'm interested in the other options discussed Dunc.

ChrisW. said: I researched the Continental options and only rears were N rated ... but it's interesting to see the weight difference ... Always find wheel and tyre weights interesting - any unsprung weight saving is a good thing IMO.

I`ve replaced my PS4S tyres on my GRY with the Conti SC7. I couldn't get the PS4S, so now the SC7, and it is a very good tyre, steers precise and direct, not to harsh, and gives enormous confidence I would really like these tyres on my GT4RS

Titanium wheel bolts save 0.5Kg per corner and are OK at normal torque settings ... the 115 Ft Lbs recommended for track work causes the threads to gently strip ...

ChrisW. said: I researched the Continental options and only rears were N rated ... but it's interesting to see the weight difference ... If only the rears are N rated then they must surely be N rated for a different car ? The N rating is being updated for each model so there will be a letter after the N to denote the model line https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/Porsche-OE-N-R... I was at CG a few weeks ago they had recently had an M2 in which had an extremely lively rear axle and couldn’t fathom why. Turns out the tyres despite being BMW fit tyres and the correct size were actually meant for the front axle of an M3…and apparently entirely inappropriate for the rear axle of an M2. Michelin replaced the tyres gratis. Probably quite different load index and I’d imagine weights like you’ve highlighted.

Cheib said: ChrisW. said: I researched the Continental options and only rears were N rated ... but it's interesting to see the weight difference ... If only the rears are N rated then they must surely be N rated for a different car ? The N rating is being updated for each model so there will be a letter after the N to denote the model line https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/Porsche-OE-N-R... I was at CG a few weeks ago they had recently had an M2 in which had an extremely lively rear axle and couldn’t fathom why. Turns out the tyres despite being BMW fit tyres and the correct size were actually meant for the front axle of an M3…and apparently entirely inappropriate for the rear axle of an M2. Michelin replaced the tyres gratis. Probably quite different load index and I’d imagine weights like you’ve highlighted. AIUI ChrisW is looking for a more road biased tyre than a Cup2 for his 991.2 GT3RS. Unfortunately there isn't a rear tyre designed to fit the 12.5J width, apart from the Cup2, the Dunlop Sportmaxx and possibly some other track-biased ones. The Continental n-marked tyre is designed for the 11.5J width rear wheel of the Panamera. This also applies to the n-marked Michelin S4S. This is despite all the tyres being sold as 325 width. Maybe the non n-marked Continental is designed for the wider wheel which would explain it being heavier. I have seen some people on the other side of the pond on Rennlist fitting 355 25 21r S4S to get the same shoulder profile. I don't think Michelin offer that tyre in the UK. It also has a smaller rolling circumference.

Tripe Bypass said: ... Maybe the non n-marked Continental is designed for the wider wheel which would explain it being heavier... Am I misreading that Continental information? The 325/30 R21 sizes are the same weight (14.86 Kg) The 325/35 R20 is heavier by circa 800g, but is that not due to the higher sidewall? The smaller 20 inch wheel should be lighter, all else being the same. What matters is the combined wheel & tyre weight.

Well I ended up fitting PS4S to the standard wheels ... both N rated and according to Black Circles a correct option for the car. Strangely the rears are rated A in the wet and the fronts only B ... there is an A rated PS4S in the front size but it's not N rated. Agreed that the information from Continental is very confusing .... The Cup2's are now on the mags ... and of course it's the weight of the complete assembly which is important ... but as long as they are durable weight savings in the tyre are more important even than weight savings in the wheel ... Edited by ChrisW. on Sunday 17th March 13:47

M11rph said: Tripe Bypass said: ... Maybe the non n-marked Continental is designed for the wider wheel which would explain it being heavier... Am I misreading that Continental information? The 325/30 R21 sizes are the same weight (14.86 Kg) The 325/35 R20 is heavier by circa 800g, but is that not due to the higher sidewall? The smaller 20 inch wheel should be lighter, all else being the same. What matters is the combined wheel & tyre weight. You're right, I'm a tit.