Dealer refused service on my 996. Need opinions

Last year I purschased my 99 911 c4 and I want to start tracking the car. Therefore, since I want to ensure the car is reliable and safe I decided to have the car gone through and serviced. I am planning to replace all fluids, replace the clutch as it feels worn and grabs relatively high, replace my rms as it leaks and while in there change the ims. I call my local dealer and ask for an estimate and he tells me that they will not do the ims. I am shocked as these are natorious issues for our cars so I asked for an explanation and he stated that c4's are not plagued by the ims problem and he checked my vin and it is not on the recall list, therefore they were instructed by porsche not service the ims. I know what you are thinking, this is just a crazy dealership and just go elsewhere. However this dealer hosts all the Pca de inspections in my area, deeply involved in Pca events, and the tech's who I have met seem very competent. What are your thoughts? Any validity to his statement, any one experience anything similar?

I've heard some.dealerships treat the IMS as nonserviceable. I'd find an Indy. It isn't the year of your car or chassis code; it's the specific work you are looking to have done. Thread title is a tiny bit misleading in that regard.

Since the replacement bearing is a non-Porsche part, some dealers decline to replace. Find an Indy - many great ones around.

I'm confused, aside from ln and the handful of other companies you can buy the oem Porsche bearing. Also I want to note, they said they wouldn't perform this service on the c4 as he indicated they weren't affected. They have serviced them on c2's. Has anyone heard of this before?

Quotes source post: 13968106

Dealership is wrong unless you have a secret turbo.

Best advice, is if you're really concerned about IMS failure in a track situation, the put aside about $6K and have an IMS solution certified shop install the proven (to not fail yet) IMS Solution part that will make your engine more bullet proof. Trying to get Porsche to rationalize on this topic is like trying to squeeze blood from a turnip.

Quotes source post: 13968118

IMS Solution Warranty Exclusions: Failures due to off-road or severe service applications, including but not limited to autocross, drivers education, track days, or any race or competition or applications other than intended by the manufacturer use will void warranty.

Quotes source post: 13968106

I've not seen a replacement with an OEM Porsche IMS bearing. Why would anyone use another Porsche bearing to replace a potentially failing Porsche bearing, assuming a Porsche bearing were even available? My dealer suggested a replacement but never even mentioned a Porsche alternative. Lots of aftermarket replacements though. C4 engine is the same as the C2 engine so not sure what dealer was referring to.

Quotes source post: 13968106

There is no OEM bearing available on its own. The only way to get a new bearing from Porsche is as part of the IMS assembly. To the best of my knowledge, that is only available in the larger captured style. Next up is the recall list. There was no recall list. There is a list of class vehicles for the class action, but at the time it was settled no 99, 00, and most 01s were part of the class due to age (more than 10 years old). Finally, unless you have a replacement motor (then you just won't know until you pull the tranny), you'll have the original dual row bearing. While they still have failures, they are much more rare than the small single row.

The dealer is crazy and the techs are clearly not as competent as their fancy jumpsuits with patches convey. Find an indy who primarily works on Porsche and has replaced the IMS bearing multiple times.

if youre gonna track the car you got alot of other work to do with the oil system as well.

Please explain? I wasn't aware.

As others have said, there are a number of issues here. First there is no recall. There is a Class Action suit which is entirely different. Second there is no Porche-branded IMS bearing available. It is only available with the IMS shaft and it will be a different style than is currently installed in your car necessitating an almost total rebuild. In fact I believe that Jake once stated that the main reason he designed his IMS bearings was because you could not get factory bearings without the shaft. Third Porsche dealers do not typically install non-Porsche parts. There are exceptions but most will say no. The ones that say yes realize they are losing a lot of potential revenue or want to help long term customers so they look the other way as to the origin of the part. Fourth and most important if you are going to track your car the dual-row IMS probably in your car is a minor concern. Read up in this forum. You have oil and emission systems (AOS) work to do that is far more likely to take out your engine. Find a good Indie that will do the work or have the dealer do everything but the IMS. The Class Action suit comes into play if your serial number is in the agreed list and your engine blows up due to an IMS failure.

Quotes source post: 13968455

oil starvation. You should be able to do some searching for setting up your car to track it. There are oil baffles and such that can help prevent the issue.

Boostede36 - where are you located?

I am in nj.

If you're going to track, find a race shop that specializes in Porsche. They will set you straight - really important!

What's the differance between a recall and a class action? I always assumed they were the same because I read about them so much on RL

Quotes source post: 13968678

Class action = lawsuit. Recall = manufacturer.

Quotes source post: 13968566

Oh, OK. Can't help with an indy shop in NJ, but I'm sure someone on here car recommend one.

Quotes source post: 13968732

Recalls can be ordered by government agencies too. Additionally a recall implies an update/fix while a class action does not (it can (see Gen 2 3.0 TDIs in the current scandal), but in this case it was just a payout).

Are you a PCA member? I am a former NNJR member and if you to their website, you will find a list of highly competent indies, bot racers and Non-racers. As their reputations on the whole are beyond reproach, I have no problem recommending just about any of them.

Had the same experience around 2+ years ago, main dealership here in Melbourne would not install any aftermarket parts as part of their policy (they have changed that policy now). At the time I opted for an independent to install the replacement IMS. Bear in mind the LN Pro retrofit requires a specialised tool to install it too. Have a trusted Indy install it and then main dealership for services if you so choose. Also if you are planning on track days I'd be using trusted independent specialist in your area who has track prep experience and recommendations etc.

Quotes source post: 13968459

This. Save your money and leave that dual row IMS bearing alone.

Quotes source post: 13969211

Exactly. Plenty of great shops recommended by nnjr. All great folks.

What about the RMSB 3 bolts cap/flange on the 99 (Dual row)? I hope to be in the same boat soon.

So, from a reliability standpoint, what's more reliable, the IMS Retro, IMS Solution, or the redisigned OEM Porsche IM Shaft with bearing? I've had the Retro done on my old 996, years great things about the Solution, but... if the new OEM shaft is put in...?

IMS Solution installed by a certified installer. That combination has zero failures to date. IMS Retrofit installed by a certified installer is the next best option. There have been a few failures of that combination, but they are very few and even fewer have been attributed to the bearing itself. Any option not done by a certified installer brings a much higher chance of failure as the motor usually isn't qualified to the standards outlined by LN. The worst option is an OEM replacement assembly. Firstly due to the expense as it requires the motor to be torn down. Secondly while it is an improvement and has the fewest OEM failures, it is still considered a flawed design. Finally, it is "captured" which means it can't be replaced again in the future without tearing the motor down again. Then there are roller bearing options which fall all along the spectrum, but none have the proven record that The Solution has.

I would use the LN Engineering recommendation: if you replace the clutch, then also replace the IMS bearing. I would then go with the ceramic bearing from LN. Spending 6k on a 20k car for IMS does not make sense IMHO. There are many other issues that can trouble your engine. In your case I would spend the money on AOS, cooling and frequent oil changes and cash remaining on some suspension upgrades. Then enjoy! If you are not replacing the clutch then leave the IMS alone, the actual failure rate is very low. And make sure your indy has the tools available and experience to do the job properly. I would not be surprised the failed ceramic bearings are due to contaminants/debris still floating in the engine or a bad installation. I would never ever bring a 15 year old car to a dealer; unless they are really experienced in servicing these cars...and even if they do, they will cost you an arm and a leg. Volkert

Quotes source post: 13969759

This.

Quotes source post: 13968732

Wow, who would have though of that? all along I thought they were the same thing

Was I the only one that saw the sarcasm on M3's initial question? It was so thick it was dripping off the letters. Lol.

My local dealer told me they had never changed an IMS bearing! I was shocked at the time, but it seems like that is the norm. I don't take my car there. The cost was the initial reason, but I've been unimpressed with their 996 knowledge when I've tried to buy parts from them.

Quotes source post: 13969944

Pretty normal. If the IMSB fails under warranty the SOP is to replace the engine. I know of only one case where an IMS (and B) was replaced under warranty at a dealer. If the IMSB fails outside of warranty and there is even the possibility of some "goodwill" the owner usually balks when he gets the quote to remove and tear down the engine to determine just what went wrong and to determine if the engine is even salvageable. If the problem is not on the "good will" (secret) list or there are mitigating circumstances (overrevs signifying a "money shift") the owner is out the cost of the engine removal and tear down and then is facing no good will and possibly an engine replacement.

Quotes source post: 13969904

Yep - gets lost in translation on the internet........

Makes sense to me that Porsche won't replace the bearing with an aftermarket one. They still cling to the belief that there was nothing wrong with the original.

I just had a PPI done on a '99 at a Porsche dealership. The service advisor told me that he had worked on these cars for 22 years. He indicated that this is not a sudden failure. You will hear a 'loud rotational whine' before failure. If you ignore it and continue to drive the car, expect the worst. If you shut it down and tow it to a repair facility you will avoid the failure. He did acknowledge that the IMS replacement preformed by an independent is the only solution as Porsche will require more expensive repairs. Even so, the aftermarket replacement is only good for 30-50K miles. Based on my research I believe that only 1% of '99's had this failure (4% for later cars). For a car that is maintained I have come to believe that this is certainly manageable.

Quotes source post: 13971115

Other than telling you to go to an Indy, none of that was correct Once a bearing is shedding metal, it has failed. When a bearing has failed, the motor has to be torn down and cleaned. Anything less runs a good chance of debris remaining in the motor to do further damage down the road. Simply flushing the oil does not fix the problem. If you are lucky and catch metal in your oil before the catastrophic failure, that just means more parts may be salvageable. The time between shed metal in the oil and catastrophic failure depends on your bearing and your luck. A dual row bearing will last the longest in the shedding phase. A single row has minimal time between the events. The only sound you hear associated to the IMSB failure is the sound of your motor catastrophically failing. When you hear "the marbles", it's done. The Solution is just that, a solution. It has no interval. The LN Retrofit has a service interval of 50-75 (I want to say it's 65, but this is from memory), not 30-50. I can't speak to the roller options.

Quotes source post: 13970904

They serve a special form of Kool Aid in their fancy lounges.

Quotes source post: 13971658

Hi Gnat, Thanks for your post and your insights. Regarding the lack of any warning sound, do you know this per personal experience? Or by the experience of others? I am not disputing your comments, just trying to understand this issue. I have only recently started studying the 996 cars and want to learn as much as I can. Thank you, Jim

Quotes source post: 13977479

Jim, No personal experience. I chose to not panic (benefit of being an original owner and knowing every mile it has seen) and waited until the transmission needed to be rebuilt. Our 01 turned out to have a dual row which was perfectly healthy. My information comes from following the issue for too many years now and most of it is based on the information that Jake Raby has provided us over that time. The first part of my comment (when it starts shedding metal, it has failed) is probably the most contentious part of what I said and it comes straight from Jake. If you follow the IMSB threads you'll find lots of people saying some form of "I found metal in the oil, but caught the bearing before it failed" and they then go on to state that a replacement bearing was installed and "all is good". We have seen, however, too many people (usually shortly after buying a car with a recent bearing replacement) come in and ask about their engine failure which their Indy chalked up to the IMSB. If you follow any rebuild threads (I believe Ashai's "blown motor" thread has been bubbling up to page 1 lately) you can see examples of how and where debris can get caught in the engine that is not going to simply flush out. The shed metal from the bearing can/will get stuck in there and then at some point down the road it comes free and starts circulating again to do it's damage. This is why no LN certified installer will put a new bearing in a car that shows signs of failure. It is also why some of us believe it's best to buy a car that hasn't had it's bearing replaced (so you know for sure and get to make all the decisions). There is a lot of panic and fear around the 996, but they are great cars (especially for the price). Good luck on your hunt, it's worth it.

Quotes source post: 13968566

If you are in central/southern NJ you should call Yurii at Polar Porsche. He has done a ton of IMS replacements. If you're closer to NY try Michael at Formula Motorsports in Queens. If you can go north, try Spencer *** at Speedsport, or Daniel Jacobs (a bit farther north/east, but I believe they were involved in the initial replacement bearing development).

Quotes source post: 13977479

Gnat is correct....there is no sound. Think of a massive heart attack..you are dead before you hit the ground. It happens but they are rare. Hit that little search button in the upper right and enjoy a year or two worth of reading and crapping yourself. Like others have said, if you plan on tracking take care of the oil system. I was one that did not and learned my lesson

If your engine is a '99, you have a double row Intermediate Shaft Bearing and I would LEAVE IT ALONE.

So far I've gathered that a 99 with original dual row is the one to find for me. I plan to start with an oil change and have the old oil analysed. Then follow that course for the rest of the oil changes at 3-5K miles. I don't have any certified IMSB techs in the state. I am a car nut with basic tools, I have no fear of pulling the motor and doing my own work but, I am not a mechanic... Other then the RMS, AOS and water pump, what should I plan on or budget for right out of the gate?

Quotes source post: 13978953

Read the build threads from Ahsai and AWDguy. That will put the fear of god into you about considering opening that sucker up

Quotes source post: 13977479

Ideally, the car will be prequalified to ensure it's a suitable candidate for the service. By the time you hear anything (if at all), the IMS is failing or has failed - which has been corroborated by my Indy. At this point it fails the prequalification. http://imsretrofit.com/pre-procedure-qualification/

Quotes source post: 13978988

I never said I would attempt to rebuild one of these...Just that I am capable of simple repairs if the motor had to be dropped to do them. I have read them and really appreciate the detailed information shared with a lot of pictures! I already have the fear of God in me after reading some of the older threads on RL. But, the "Madness" has struct me!

Quotes source posts: 13978360, 13978953

Hi Imo000 and 808Bill, I've decided that "LEAVE IT ALONE" is the best course of action for me. Imo000, do I understand correctly that all '99's have the dual row ISB? Thanks to everyone for the information provided on this subject.

Quotes source post: 13980374

Unless you have the super rare triple row Unicorn Dingle Bearings. Those last forever.

Couple of comments. WRT the 'noise' before catastrophic failure, I recall that one of the signs was a sound like marbles in a can on start up, or a low speed rumble from the engine. Of course, by the time you hear this, the damage is completely done, but there is a sound associated with the failure in some cases. My opinion on the oft-commented less than 1% failure rate for the dual row bearing is first that the failure rate of any part should be referred to as a function of time or mileage. One could safely say that failure rate of the dual row bearing is less than 0.0001 within the first 500 miles. However, the 'life' of the M96 engine can easily be considered 150-200k miles, and I have no idea of the failure rate of the IMS over the life of the engine. One thing that I've done to help mitigate damage from the IMSB is to install the full-flow oil filter. Nothing goes around the filter media. Second, I installed a mag drain plug in hopes that if I start to suffer bearing damage, a careful inspection of the filter, combined with capturing the magnetic bearing shedding will help me save the engine from truly horrible damage. From several sources the general consensus is the M96 in its stock form is a poor platform for track duty. Oiling issues primarily, but other things come up as well. To make it more track suitable the engine needs about $5-12k of work once it's out on the bench. That turned me off to tracking. Finally, from a statistics POV, a 1% failure rate is ginormous. If Toyota were suffering a 1% failure rate of some critical component, people would be fired, cars would be recalled, and all kinds of changes made. I had a Prius which had a 0.04% failure rate of the digi display but only in cold conditions. Even though the car was well out of warranty, Toyota replaced my digi dash for free, and gave me a loaner for 3 days while they took care of it. Yes - I owned a Prius for a while as I was commuting 115 miles per day in metro traffic. sorry...

Yes all 99s (that haven't had their motor replaced) are dual rows. Odds on an 00 are for the dual and 01s are a box of chocolates. 02s and up should all be single, but Jake has found the odd dual in them too.

Quotes source post: 13969904

In fairness to the folks who missed this, M3 does have a tendency to vacillate between "sarcasm" and "wrong," so the mistake is understandable.

Quotes source post: 13980750

Yea, but not in like three weeks, so your data is skewed!

Hey M3, the "It happened again" thread has turned into an insurance discussion. Sounds up your alley

Quotes source post: 13980883

I'll pass, I enjoyed a few bash free weeks, it's not too bad!