996 TURBO S

Having read a recent article thats trying to predict the next collectable turbos that wont rapidly depreciate what do u guys think of buying a turbo s at current market value? i was thinking about flogging my 997s next year and maybe opting for a 996 Turbo S Cab

Although I think the 996 turbo S cab is a brilliant car, if I were to buy a car that would perhaps go up in value it would be a LHD air-cooled limited edition specialist market car (RS, LE, GT2, Clubsport, Supersport etc) as high as my budget would stretch. A 996 turbo S would be very far down that list. A cab of any description would be even further down that list, they appeal to a totally different market. Add a tip to that description and you are getting close to the bottom. The question is, are you buying a car as an investment or to enjoy? You have to find the right balance, othwerise you are just living with a car you don't really want in the hope that you don't lose too much money on it. IMO life's too short.

who knows I cant think they will be anything like as exclusive as the gt3 rs or gt2 They built a total of 598 worldwide and I think I am correct in saying around 300-350 went to the states They are a nice car and had pretty much had the options bin thrown at them They are probaly a bit more desirable than the multitude of 996 turbos and X50's but an investment? I bought mine primarily because it was a lovely car in good condition I think it will be easier to resell if that day comes but to be honest I think this will be a keeper I would personally buy the car you like and enjoy it I know they have been selling at a higher premium recently the one 911virgin had went very quickly and was up at £45000 Most people I think get carried away with the S bit not appreciating the differance however for bragging rights at the bar consider this when i was looking for a 996 turbo s I came across these figures from Loren on Renntech.org they are specific for the engine codes for the 996 m9670-642 420 hp standard car m9670-643 462hp X50 m9670-645 483hp Turbo s and i also believe the GT2 you will find your engine code in the vin sticker in your service book check out the link http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=12027&start=0&p=75094&#entry75094 in a very childish and small weener kind of way that is not a bad reason to buy one[ ] I will now wait for the deluge of complaints

Call me a traditionalist or whatever (?!), but I can't see _any_ cab 911 becoming "collectable". I'm not saying cabs or tips are bad cars, but historically, the 'collectable' 911's have been fhc's with manual gearbox and (preferably) minimal creature comforts.. a la RS's / GT3's etc. {Actually scrub that last remark, GT3 aren't desirable OR collectable.... at least not until I've bought one }

I thought it was 420bhp (560 NM) for the basic turbo M96/70, 450bhp (620NM) for the X50 and the GT2 it was changed from 462bhp for the MKI (M96/70s) to 483bhp for the MKII. Wasn't the turbo S the same as the X50 but with PCCBS as standard and some other spec thrown in, but not a more powerful engine?

According to the Turbo/Turbo S brochure (in the FAQ section) the S was 450bhp. Still seems a good reason to me. Edit: Can't find a 450bhp in the engine codes on the PET though:

Interesting points tks. Rodney u specify buying a LHD car for it to be collectable. Not sure I understand that as a RHD 993 turbo for example is collectable I thought. Very valid point about just enjoying it thou. I've recently borrowed a 996 s cab tip and thoroughly enjoyed the power difference from my 997s although I personally wud prefer a manual. All food for though for a change for next year. A 997 turbo in depreciation terms I can't justify so may enter the world of air cooled

I agree the 993 turbos S' in RHD are fetching strong money, but RHD limits the potential market severly. With LHD cars you have all of Europe and the U.S thrown in. All you need is a favourable exchange rate and your asset could go through the roof (a big part of the reason why 964RS & 993RS/GTs have recently spiked in price and sold to European buyers)

Interesting. So Loren was right? I've always seen the X50 advertised as 450bhp I guess they've been undersold for years.

Richard's option codes show the X50 option as "Powerkit 331/340kW". I would have assumed that his car had a 340kW engine, but being a MY2005 car, I now think it is 360kW. It's very confusing, as the numbers don't match up. The PET is certainly misleading, especially as it doesn't show 331kw or 450bhp versions!

yup very good point Rodney. Driving a left hooker over here thou i think wud prove a pain.

No, I think you were right first time Rodney X50 is an upgrade to the standard 420 engine so won't have a separate listing and the Turbo S just had the X50 as standard X50 comprised bigger K24 turbos (normally K16), upgraded inter-coolers and an updated ECU. These upgrades bring the X50 close to GT2 spec (I think the X50 retains the std exhaust) and do make further power increases easier so it's quite possible for a Turbo S with an ECU update to make the 462 or 489 of the Mk1 and Mk2 GT2 (and it's been suggested that the Turbo S did indeed have an updated ECU as standard but I'm not sure it's got a separate part number)

That's surprising Andy that an X50 with a chip can match the power output of a MKII GT2 which has titanium conrods, lighter valves/tappets etc. Porsche needn't have bothered unless the torque/power curves are very different?

Perhaps Richard could check his VIL and get the engine type from there, to see if it is 644 or 645?

hi guys you dont seriously believe i would have mentioned this if i didnt know that number child that i am[ ] M9670-645 the point about the output is that porsche give a minimum output for the engines when we were at the factory they confirmed this every engine once built is put on the dyno they are then run up to max output so for standard turbo they are only interested that it will produce at least 420 they admitted some produce more this is the same for the standard engines so for the x50 it is really only saying it will produce at least 450 in fact looking at the codes satisfaction guaranteed[ ] really we are all winners what really blew me away was that no running in fill it up with liquids and boink... rev the nuts off it and you can see the dyno rig from where they were making the engines really impressed me with the standard of engineering porsche have always been conservative in there hp output quotes I also believe the later turbo s had the same crank case as the GT2 so called spanish cases another anoracky fact doesnt make any differance to the output the exhaust question is interesting it has a differant number on the pet for the x50/gt2 than the standard it definately sounds louder than standard i think the differance is down to the cats in the exhaust the standard has 400 cell cats and some people have remarked the x50 type has 300 cell cats when i went to carneval to have my exhaust modified with 100 cell sport cats Gert said the cats were all the same so i dont know no question though there is a differance in the noise quiet pleasing also know because a guy who took his x50 to the prodrive circuit for a driving day got banned as his standard x50 exhaust was to loud for health and safety not the standard

Those output figures are Porsches own, yet they are inconsistent. I don't think I've ever heard of a turbo owner seeing anything like 450 on the dyno. Porsche are conservative but they are not running a charity! It is confusing as the PET states the following:- Option X50 £8,709.10 Performance kit (includes modified turbos, intercoolers, ECU and gearbox, 331 kW (450bhp) I just downloaded the US order guide for the turbo S off Renntech which states 444 horsepower, no ECU mods, no exhaust mods to the X50 standard. Here is a link to a website which talks about the differences. It states the main difference between the turbo X50 and the turbo S is that PCCBs became standard fit (and also quotes a figure of 444bhp for the 2). http://www.qv500.com/porsche996p6.php So where do the extra HP come from? The plot thickens! Standard equipment includes: 3.6 Liter turbo charged 6 cylinder engine producing 444 Horsepower. Reinforced 6-speed manual transmission with double inertia flywheel and hydraulic clutch. Motronic electronic accelerator pedal with solid-state distribution. All time All-Wheel-Drive. 18" Turbo II wheels painted in GT silver metallic. Ceramic Composite Brake System PCCB (450) with brake calipers painted in yellow. Braking system includes 6-piston monobloc fixed-caliper brakes at front, 4-piston monobloc fixed-caliper brakes at rear. Turbo Power Kit (X50). Anti-lock Braking System (ABS). Porsche Stability Management (PSM). Active Brake Differential (ABD). Traction Control (ASR). Engine Drag Torque Control (EDTC). Twin exhaust pipes. Automatic power windows with tip up/down. Outside mirrors are electrically adjustable and heated. Automatically deployed rear spoiler. Integrated third brake light. 64-liter gas tank. Driver and passenger front and side airbags. Seatbelt pretensioner with belt-force limitation. Immobilizer System with transponder system for safety protection. Central locking with remote control and alarm. Lockable glove box. Roofliner in Alcantara. Split folding rear seats. Automatic full climate control. Extractable cup-holder in front center console. Digital Radio with in dash CD.

This thread is interesting (and confirms Richard's Spanish link!) [8D] http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=48&t=654755&mid=60387&i=0&nmt=996TT X50&mid=60387 EvoSLayer said 'M96/70E turbocharged engine as fitted to X50 optioned cars and turbo S included K24 turbos, upgraded intercoolers and reprogrammed ECU. M96/70S engine as fitted to MkI GT2 included all above plus revised exhaust silencers. M96/70SL as fitted to 2004 MkII GT2 included above plus minor internal modifications to pistons, rings and valves plus revised software'. BLKROKT said 'The 05TT's with the spanish case all have the GT3R oil pump in there just like the GT2/Turbo S'. There's some evidence that the heads are different too (port and combustion chamber design'. EvoSLayer said 'As far as I am aware the exhaust with modified silencer was fitted to M96/70S & 70SL series engines (GT2) and not part of X50 option'.

All the DMEs are the same part. When you program the DME with the PST2 or PIWIS you select the fuel map for the car, region, and fuel type you are programming. There are maps for USA, RoW, Std, X50, leaded, unleaded, etc. It seems to me that for MY2005 they fitted the M96.70.645 engine to the 'S' which was 360kW (489bhp). I suspect that the X50 engines fitted up to MY2004 may have been 331 or 340kW, depending on the region they were supplied, perhaps due to emission standards differences.

cor You never fail to amaze me with your knowledge Richard do you have a Cray secretly doing searches in the garage digging out all this information anyway it makes not a blind bit of differance It feels like the starship enterprise when you boot it and i am still laughing like a hyena even now all those months later but a little bit of intrigue always makes that bond between man and machine a little stronger looking forward to next weekend guys

Sorry David for overtaking your thread with anorak musings [8D] Roll on next weekend![ ]

That's absolutely fine Rodney. I wondered what on earth I had started for a minute. Sounds like my thinking of said car being an appreciating classic is never gonna happen but more importantly to buy and enjoy the car if I decide to do it. The problem I have is that my 997s is such a great car in s way now that I've had the depreciation hit over the last 2 yrs I'd b a real mug to sell it. It's in A1 condition, never let me down , only done 25k miles and at the end of the day it's still and will always b a 911. That said I enjoy the discussions about the difference in the cars and future feelings about them. Cheers

One issue with keeping a decent car as an "investment" is the fact you need to keep the mileage off it. IMHO, unless you're a serious collector (by that I mean you are likely to own several "interesting" Porsches already), it defeats the object of owning a top end Porsche unless you intend to drive it regularly. My Turbo (not an S but a bit smart with a few nice tweeks) is a second car and it will probably hold it's value better than it's predecessor (C4 Cab) but it's not an investment as I will undoubtedly lose large wads if I ever sell it. I'd be more annoyed about not driving it enough while I have the opportunity though.

Not that I am biased in anay way at all [ ][ ] but I guess many people in the '50s and 60s said that same thing about 356s. It took long enough but just look at those prices now! It doubt it will ever happen with the 996 though - there are far too many of them now. But hey - each to there own. When I mentioned to my wife that we might go for a 997 coupe next she said " ......... if we get one of those we might as well drive a Ford Focus!!!" Oops sorry guys, but what she meant was that she loves the open top motoring and the recent PEYT was just great. No other way for us - cabriolet all the way!