Porsche remanufactured short blocks

My '03 Targa with less than 55K miles has developed a rod knock which I have confirmed by removing the sump plate to find copper flakes which were also in the oil filter. A used oil analysis confirmed this theory as it showed high levels of iron, copper and lead. I am confident in my mechanical skills to remove and replace the cylinder heads and set up the valve timing correctly, but don't have the special tools or the inclination to attempt complete disassembly below the heads. I learned from reading in this forum that complete remanufactured engines for the 996 were no longer available but just recently learned that remanufactured short blocks are available from Porsche. My local Porsche dealer gave me a price of about $6500 after core turn in which I thought was quite reasonable. The negative is that the delivery time is 3 to 4 weeks as it has to come from Germany. Air delivery would add about 20% to the price. My question is if anyone has had experience with these Porsche short block engines and was the outcome positive. Thanks in advance for your input.

Subscribed.

That seems cheap. One good thing is that they will have updated to the newest version of the IMS... so I wouldn't expect issues. This is a quote from your local dealer? and not some online scammer? right? If it all works out well, report back... I've got one in the works also. Thx

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The last time I heard the short block price was double that ! (admittedly a couple years ago) Beware your short block may be unacceptable as a core due to damage. You should look into RND engines also.

Mmmm....shortblock.

At $6500, I would have forgone the IMS solution and all the while you're in there's and just driven the car. If the engine grenaded, I'd still come out ahead vs all the PM cost. If this is a limited run, interesting arbitrage opportunity.

I can maybe see case halves for $6,500, but not sure a complete short block with crank, pistons, rods, bearing carrier, and everything else.

That sounds lika a great price This thread is one to watch to see how it all plays out GL

I got a quote for around $6000 for a short block at my closest Porsche dealer last fall. This seems legit it me. Although I should mention that this was for a car vin with a 3.4 liter, if that matters. Here is the part at Auto Atlanta: http://www.autoatlanta.com/Porsche-9...lock-srch.html

Generally a short block is block/crankcase with crankshaft and pistons without cylinder heads, does anyone have more concrete information as to what is included with this factory short block? With or without cyl heads $6500.00 exchange for a factory unit sounds pretty good.

Wow.....that would be a game changer if short blocks were available for less than 7K......think how well we would sleep at night!

Yes the factory short block is a legitimate option. Although I think it runs about the same or cheaper to have LN sleeve your original block depending on what's reusable. If you look at the autoatlanta website, it lists a lot of the pieces you need to go with it.

It is not clear if it is pre assembled complete short block. pistons, rings bearings, etc. Or is it in pieces?

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Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly (very likely), but that link shows the same short block for $6000 and also for $24,000??

Yes it's legit. It's a short block ready for heads and externals to be bolted on. I remember when we could get complete plug and play factory reman m96 engines for 6-8k, and at one time had a special where they waived the core charge, you could keep your old engine.

Hmmm... I'm looking for a second engine that I can put in a corner of my shop wrapped in plastic. This seems like a good option for a reman shortblock. When I bought my car last week it came with receipts from the seller showing a full "engine out" complete IMS replacement, along with a new upgraded clutch kit. At 64K miles (at the time) I'd hope I have plenty of time before needing one, but I also don't want to not have one available if I need it down the road either. Subscribed!

Mikelly, You know, I was thinking the exact same thing even though my 1999 already has factory reman with the larger non servicable IMS bearing and low mileage. I guess like many of us, we love our "forever" 996's.

Just curious, is there a warranty with these short blocks?

Subscribed, IMS kits from Porsche, reasonable short blocks, whats next?! What an age for the 996

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From Porsche: Genuine Porsche Parts - Come with a 2 year unlimited mileage warranty. All warranty claims must be processed in person at your nearest Porsche Service Center, then inspected on the vehicle by a factory trained Porsche technician. If approved, installation (but not diagnosis) of the replacement part is typically covered.

Does anyone know for sure what exactly the short block contains? I’m going to contact AutoAtlanta tomorrow to find out, as I think their website is confusing at best, and possibly misleading. The picture of the short block appears to me to show only half an engine case. I’m wondering if you need to buy 2 half’s to get a true short block. Also it’s unclear to me if a crankshaft is included.

A short block includes crank rods pistons all assembled add heads cams on and on -core charge is 3 K by the time it's a long block that's a 24 k build - it's a 9K plus shipping for short block - A 750 hp Chev 454 with everything is about 14K - all in all 9 grand sounds special for half a motor - I will sleeve what I have put Carrillo rods in it and beef up heads, cams and have fun doing that! Yes it's like finding hens teeth or is it Hmmm ?

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From Auto Atlanta, this page shows the short block as having cases, crank, pistons, rods, timing chains, oil pump, ect, the things you would expect from a "short block". the price list. 47k for "new" plug and play engine. 23k for "new" short block, and 6k for "reman" short block. (note ; no "reman" long block or complete engine available. Edit : that page does still show one variant of the engines (m96.02 3.4) as being availible in a complete plug and play "reman" engine for 11k) you can distinguish the "reman" engines by the part number ending in "X"/ http://www.autoatlanta.com/porsche-parts/hardparts.php?dir=996-99-05&section=101-00&pn=996100996UX#a

I bought a factory "reman" shortblock for my 2003 3.6. It comes with a lot of parts that you would want to replace in a rebuild. One thing to note: The block was beautiful, brand new... But the coolant housing that came on it looked oxidized, like it had been sitting on a shelf for a long time. Later on, when I was looking into an unstable oil pressure that ended up being the sender, I pulled out the oil pressure relief piston- it had very peculiar wear like it had been chattering, and had substantial pitting in the exact shape of the passage in the oil pump (where it would be exposed to air). I replaced it, but am going to pull the pump and look for further signs of corrosion eventually. I worry the steel pump gears will be pitted in the same fashion. If I were to do it again, I would FOR SURE pull off the oil pump on the brand new short block and confirm conditions before assembly. Everything else including the price is fantastic- newest factory ims design

Dan951 mind sharing how much you paid? was it as advertised on autoatlanta? This is all good news. Kind of changes the game for 996 NA imo. Not that it matters to me. I'm in for better or for worse

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So for clarity. It is not a new short block for $6500, it is remanufactured . So I wonder if warranty is same for remanufactured as it is new? Either way, I don't think I would have spent the money for LN Single Pro on my 60,000 mile 3.6, that showed no signs of IMS or RMS issues. If I knew this was an option, instead of all information claiming $24k After tear down, the IMS was perfect. I

Be glad it was , If the ims wasn't perfect , you'd be needing one of those blocks . having a background in mechanical engineering with aviation and heavy mining equipment experience . There are many components you change when they hit the time and hours numbers . "Run to failure " just isn't a part of the ethos . its through that lens I view this bearing . i changed mine with only 35,000 miles on the car . The bearing was in such good shape the seal was still intact with grease in it . No regrets . i changed the rms, flywheel and clutch at the same time . They looked good . coming off Italian cars and motorcycles , none of this seems that bad.

Isn't the incidence of bore score/ovaling more prevalent than IMS failure? If so, then how does a re-manufactured short block address these issues?

That�s a good question , and one reason the nikkies from l&n /rnd or hartechs similar liners are attractive . It�s worth investigating what Porsche reman use

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Yeah not sure how you can 're manufacture' a block that is not designed to be refurbished. There is no way to bore/sleeve the cylinders, even honing them is difficult and a special job due to the material. Seems kinda fishy

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Yes, the warranty would be the same 2 year unlimited mileage. It's still considered a Genuine Porsche Part.

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new sleeves / liners is basically what l&n does with their nikasil reman cases

Here is hartech�s approach http://www.hartech.org/cylinder-liners

presume porsche only remans when block is within certain tolerances. re bore scoring vs ims, i think depends on the year; bore scoring only showed up in the 3.6 engines due to increased stroke putting greater lateral force on lokasil liners. also, remans all come w the larger 2005+ ims bearing which has a much lower failure rate (not sure if that was stated earlier in the thread).

Good luck getting answers from AutoAtlanta. I contacted them this morning. First they told me the short engine included block and heads. I knew this could not be true. Then they told me the only stock was in Germany and couldn’t tell me the lead time,and they were special order. I asked about a core charge, again they didn’t know. I asked them to email me some answers, and to their credit, they did. Oh, by the way, the price is now $7896.35 with a $3000 core charge. No info about lead time. Im quite sure they have no clue about how the cylinders are “remanufactured”, or any other parts for that matter. Also, no details of what constitutes an acceptable core.

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all m96& 97 motors are at risk for bore scoring , even 2.5 boxsters , it�s pretty commonly seen in cold environments , just ask any boxster or 911 owner in Edmonton

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Porsche can't do aftermarket solutions, their cylinders are cast with the block and integral. Once the block is used there is no way to keep the block 'porsche' and replace liners and honing/boring is not trivial on these blocks. They already suffer ovalizing problems, boring would only make it worse. Aftermarket solutions to a problem are very different than an approved OEM solution.

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sure, all engines are at risk of all modes of failure; it's more an issue of probability. i've read of the relationship between cold start and scoring, but yet to see any definitive proof of the correlation. the best analysis i've seen is from hartech, which ties it to the stroke change (and lokasil). for what it's worth, i live north of edmonton and have been looking for a 996 with a failed engine for quite a while - no luck.

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the factory must be doing something with these reman blocks . Since we don�t know what they are doing , you can�t rule out a resleeve . They�ve done this with other oem reman engines . They could even sub out the work . No shortage of engineering shops in Europe that could do this work given that Porsche is strategically placing �Porsche classic � certified dealerships around the world that can handle everything from 356s to 991s it�s not surprising they have started offering reman short blocks for the 996

My question here might offend some folks, but I have been in this game long enough to know there are a lot of opinions and far fewer first hand experienced people. WHO here has bought a reman block from PCNA? Who has had LNEngineering or some other company do a block for them? These are the people I want to hear from.

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How is the new bearing that is larger , installed in the new block halves, it must have some pretty serious machine work. Who in thier right mind would install new pistons in cylinders that were not bored out or sleeved? Am I off base for thinking they may use used pistons, if they are not concerned with bore wear, and just hone them? More questions now, than before?

for anyone with bore scoring steel sleeves are half the price of nikasil.. and everyone and their mother uses them on every other platform..i agree aluminium with nikasil runs cooler.. but all high milage engines run steel for anywhere from 200 to 300k miles no problems..

I have built a couple of engines using the LN Nickies, and have installed quite a number of Factory reman engines. I can say that I can't tell the Factory reman engine from a new engine on the outside, except for the serial number having a AT stamped into it. IE M96/01ATxxx......... It would not surprise if the engines were in fact "new" just sold under "remain" pricing to get the cores. Many OEM manufactures have used this technique to get supplies of cores to start their "reman" operation or when they have ran out of cores. I remember that during this time the "core charge" was more than the cost of the reman engine to ensure that they got the core back.

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I see on their page where the 3.4 price is $7896, but I also see that the 3.4 X51 short block (which was not available in the US except in dealer installed kit form) is available for $6305 !! part number 996100951TX Also to my knowledge acceptable damage would be worn bearings/crank , worn pstons/cylinders, bent valves, worn gears,ect. Unacceptable damage would be rod thrown through block, busted due to wreck damage, dropped valve causing busted block, ect.

FYI, from the 2018 PCA Club Racing Rules - Appendix F - Approved Aftermarket Parts "996 short blocks: The 3.4 liter 996 may use the X51 short block, part number 996.100.951.TX. The 3.6 liter 996 may use the X51 short block, part number 996 .100.996.X"

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Thankx !! Good info !!

Is there a 3.6 P/N?

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Yes, read post #45.

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Here is whats in the PET: 996 100 996 TX: Short engine Comprising: Crankcase Connecting rod crankshaft Oil pump Timing chain Partks kit without Gaskets Use also: 99610101600 99610421554 99610622352 00004320435 00004330013 90037813100 99917020791 Almost 20k AUD... There is one replacement engine available: 996 100 996 29 - $70k AUD!

What's the difference between a regular and x51 short block? I thought the majority of differences of the x51 were in heads?

This is great news. Under 8k for a short block makes me feel better than thinking of the high cost of a rebuild if anything goes wrong.

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Spot on. The shortblock is the same as the non X-51 models, with exception that it probably comes with the x51 oil baffle rather than the normal plastic one.

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Do they come assembled?

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I would assume so but that info is just straight out of the PET so not much explanation available. You guys are lucky at <8k it would be 20k for me ​​​​​​

Porschetech3 thanks for the info!! My plan right now is to investigate buying a motor or building a 3.8L and putting the existing motor in mothballs. I bought this car to drive it, and for the price of entry, I'm less concerned about buying a motor or building a motor. Knowing about the shortblock options is good. Having driven a 3.8L converted 2000 model 911, I was amazed at the torque and performance of the motor. So I'm really intrigued by this option.

while definitely better than $24k for the motor alone, for those non-diy'ers out there, this $8k shortblock will still be $12k installed, so still not a totally low cost option.

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Agree. I'm not one of those.

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This is true on the 3.6 and 3.8 x51, but the 3.4 x51 kit came with different pistons, also cams, heads, intake, headers, oil pan, and a double scavenge pump on bank 2 head.

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Your garage is bigger than our entire condo... Sigh. Maybe we should move out of DC

I commute to Chantilly every day, an hour. But it’s worth it to me to live in the Wilderness Battlefield and have a private range, and 30X60 shop. I have plenty of space to park both my car trailers and no neighbors to bitch about anything I might do or park outside for extended periods. 32 years commuting up north. 32 years living in the country just outside of Fredericksburg.

is the m96 3.6l same for both 996 n 997.1?

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Pretty much yes. The 9A1 motor I believe came out in the 997.2

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The 997.1 has the M97 which included the 3.6l and 3.8l. It's considered an upgrade to the M96 akin to how the 3.6l M96 evolved from the 3.4l M96. The 2009MY+ cars have the 9A1 or 9A2 DFI engines.

997.1 3.6 is still a m96 at least on the early cars

Some of the early 2005 997s had the m96 motor with the single row ims .

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+1

Thanks Charles and Porschetech3!

If these are remanufactured short blocks, who does the work? Does Porsche sub it out? If so, what is the level of quality? I would want to know since it could end up being a similar overall cost if I were to get an engine rebuilt at Flat6.

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As far as I know, and I'm pretty sure, Porsche does the reman's in house. Reman complete engines have been available since a few years after the 996 was introduced, but not short blocks, they were complete plug and play engines.For the first few years, no one was allowed to even open up, or repair the m96 engines. Complete reman engines were available for 6-8k + core (and core charge was more than the cost of the engine) then went to 12k..15k..19k. now 23-24k + core.. Heads can be rebuilt for 200 - 1000 ( 200 being clean and grind valves and new seals...1000 being with new guides and springs) each. and I guesstimate labor to install a short block ( in the AllData Guide) would be about 25 hours. A DIY'er could do a reman short block with basic valve job and all new gaskets/seals for 7-8k repairing as much "as necessary" and not "as much as possible". Of course that would be on an engine that was in really good condition ( heads and all bolt ons )before suffering a bore score, or a bearing failure.

In that case, I wonder if Porsche is expanding their restoration and parts business to make it a more significant revenue stream, similar to what Ferrari has done. I saw recently where Porsche was using a state of the art metal 3D printer to manufacture some unobtanium vintage Porsche parts. The 996 is not valuable enough to provide the type support that could be justified with some of the earlier Porsches, but they may be able to sell a few short blocks if they keep the cost down.

Quite a few!

Porsche have invested a lot in creating " Porsche Classic Partners " at select dealerships . You can take your 356 to one if you want . Given that there were 175000 996's built , and most of them are still on the road , along with 70% of all Porsches ever built , the classics support is a real revenue stream .

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That value might not be at that point "yet" but IMHO that shouldn't be the determining factor and would be very near sighted by Porsche. Customer service for a product they originally sold for over $80-$90 k should be enough of a reason.

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Warranty is only if you have the dealer do the work. All of us independents that buy and install Genuine parts do so without any assistance from Porsche as they are sold to us without warranty. If a shop does give a warranty, it's the shop, not the manufacturer.

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I remember when the 911 2.7, 964 where the red headed step child's..... the 996 is great deal at the moment and with this motor program even better for the buck.....There will be a time where the 996 will be valued, it has happened to all the 911 models

It's started already- it's a 911 not a 944

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The factory "reman" engines, both complete and now shortblock, use new blocks. They don't recondition them. We put Nickies in all of them. We refuse to direct plate. It's been my experience that every block, unless it has less than 20-30k miles, is out of round. And yes, we have purchased new block - they are perfectly round without taper from the factory - MA1 engines included. Budget rebuilders that tell you otherwise just do the fingernail test - if there are no scratches in the bores you can't catch with a fingernail, they just throw rings at it. They might not even own a bore gauge or know how to use it let alone a profilometer to make sure the bore's Ra finish is in spec to even allow new rings to set.

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Are you SURE they use new blocks? If so would indicate a great effort by them to keep cost of ownership down. The new blocks price is over 10k and has been since available, hasn't changed much. If they are selling new blocks with pistons, rods, crank, bearings, chains. ect for 6-7k they are making a considerable effort to keep owner cost down. I agree that the factory blocks are ovaling over time and that your sleeves are a better long term choice.

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Absolutely positive. Been told that from several sources they use new blocks and actually don't reuse any of the original cores. We've pulled apart reman engines in the past from the dealership and everything is 100% new.

Great thread with great information. Thanks for all of your input Charles!

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If that�s the case I wonder what is the difference between these 2 short blocks? Even AutoAtlanta could not explain it clearly. http://www.autoatlanta.com/tinyresul...=550&width=875 http://www.autoatlanta.com/tinyresul...=550&width=875

Must be a misprint- looks like a long block for 24K

Because of this thread and my plan to buy a 996 later this year, while I was in the Porsche dealership in KC the other day checking on some other parts, I asked the parts guy about the re-manufactured short blocks. He told me the cost was: 3.4L $5,800 3.6L $6200 I did not ask any details as I just wanted the info for possible future reference.

I was just in the local Porsche service dept getting some work done on the car. The car next to me was a 996 getting a new (reman) shortblock. The service adviser went over the ticket with me: Approx 6K for shortblock + 6K for labor and about 1k in gaskets,etc. The total bill came to 13k and change. He clarified that there would be additional charges if the heads needed to be rebuilt. 13+K to bring another 996 back from the grave; factory warranty; count me in!

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What about the PCA discount?

I'm now looking at rollers due to this latest discovery!

This is a really interesting find. A quick internet search using the part number yielded results as low as $5850 with a $2690 core charge. This does ease the "scare" of owning an M96 car.

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Jeepers! I would have never done the $4000 job of ims/rms if I knew this I did as preventative , ims was prefect that came out . Why would anyone spend $24 k for rebuild , when you could do this and get warranty? What dealer was it?

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Run the other way from any shop, dealership including, that will put a used head onto a new shortblock.

Charles- what is your recommendation then?

BTW, when I asked just "how broken" a core can be and still be accepted, the service adviser said that it could be "intrinsic damage of most any type", i.e. a rod thru the block and it would be accepted. "An engine that was broken by a crash would not be an acceptable core". I presently have two long-blocks that fit that bill!

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In the past when we would supply cores there couldn't be any holes in the case. We were told it didn't matter what the inside looked like as they didn't rebuild them.

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Factory shortblocks don't do anything to address known cylinder, rod bolt, and IMS issues. Once you add labor and the rest of the parts to build a short block into a complete engine, you aren't saving any money over building one up with upgrades.

Was just thinking if your car suffered from bore scoring and your crank was good going with nickies 3.4-3.8 kit seems like a better way to go. Only added expense would be bottom end bearings and you have a bulletproof short block then for $5k plus bearings and gaskets would probably end up the same as the Porsche short block.

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You would be surprised how many failures we've seen and the crankshaft journals look perfect. Only oiling related failures and spun rod bearings damage cranks. Cylinder and IMS failures hardly ever damage the crackshaft journals. Scored bores and IMS failures don't really add too much cost to the rebuild, with exception of a replacement core IMS shaft if the original bearing has failed.

Good to know thanks! Whats the highest mileage you have heard a customer has put on your Nickies?

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That's a great question. We typically never see them again after they leave. I believe the highest mileage we've seen back was 40-50k and that included track time and that was an engine built 6-7 years ago. That block just came to us for inspection and we hit it with the brushes to deglaze the bores before re-ringing the pistons. Bores were perfect.

Charles, while I have your attention. Can you point me to a post or tell us here how the 996 Nickies deal with cold-start related issues in the M96. It is the missing piece to my 996 being a 4 season car.

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Here is a document we put together on injectors (see attachment). I also did a piece on fuel: Modern Fuels and your Classic (or Performance) Car Changing your oil on a 4 season car more often and using fuel additive to protect the fuel system are steps that can be taken to minimize the likelihood of problems caused by E10 and winter fuel blends.

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Charles, can you elaborate more on this?

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The cylinder head needs to be rebuilt when it comes off. Bare minimum is resurfacing, valve job, and new guide seals.

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That makes sense

Charles- can you punch out a 3.4 to 3.8 and not flash DME - and do the cams have to be replaced?

Just on this, if you purchase a re manufactured block does Porsche update the documentation to your car? I.e. Is your car still considered "matching numbers" because the Porsche documentation reflects your new engine number? This might be overkill but it would be interesting to know for the future...

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No software is required. The ECU will adapt all on its own :-)

Bump this back. Interested to hear some success stories of who that went this route. Wonder if the final cost is as advertised. Thanks.

Subscribed. You have to wonder how long these will be available, what the cost of purchase outright would be (no core), and if anyone intends on buying one for no good reason other than hedging a bet that these will be more difficult to find in the future. So that begs the question: why now? Is Porsche interested in keeping the 996 and their owners around for a long time? Is there some risk Porsche would be taking in possibly letting the owners of these cars and their car�s just fall away into the abyss of the forgotten world?

The 996 is now considered part of Porsche�s �classics program�. I believe they will support it and all it�s parts as they do any of their other cars. There are still tons of them on the road, so it behoovs them to do so. Regardless of what the naysayers say or believe, the 996 will someday be a �classic�... that doesn�t mean you should run out and star filling up warehouse with them, just take care of what you�ve got 😉

I could be wrong, but I don�t think this is a new thing. I get the impression Porsche has been selling these all along. It seems to be getting an inordinate amount of attention here like it is some new program. I�m pretty sure it isn�t.

I have one on order at my local dealer, should be here in about 1 week. Cost was $6004 +tax. Core charge was $2700, but I was able to avoid that by bringing in my core at the time of order. When it comes in, I’ll post some pics on the thread titled “my roller”.

Hi All, just wanted to confirm a few points after reading through all the info on this thread. 1) Bore scoring and IMS failures can be addressed by replacing the short block which can be purchased from a Porsche dealer directly for about $6k+ core charge. (I was a bit confused with the other short blocks listed for $24k from autoatlanta's website) 2) Are these the part numbers that one would go to the dealer with to order? - 3.6L engine - 996100996UX - 3.4L engine - 996100996TX 3) What else should be replaced when changing out the short block (AOS, waterpump, etc.)? 4) Labor charge seems to be around the $4k ball park assuming replaced by the dealer, is that about right. Thanks all for the clarification. This will definitely help one sleep better at night if all works out as describe.

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Not to go down the "while your in there rabbit hole" the AOS, water pump ect. are good suggestions, but depends on the age of the used components. To add : at a minimum the heads should be refreshed///disassembled, cleaned, valves guides, springs, inspected and measured, a good multi-angle valve job, resurfaced , new valve seals:: at a cost of $200+ each. Also the clutch disc, pressure plate, flywheel, should be evaluated. Your other estimates seem to be close enough for evaluation.

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Thanks Porschetech!!

I don't think it's new. But I think recently there was a huge price drop. That it what I think stoked all the interest. I could be wrong.

I wonder what the true cost of a GT3 short block is, since many of us were so misinformed about the 3.6L & 3.4L??

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Eddy- I can confirm the number you have for the 3.4 is correct, that�s the number the dealer will need.

since my 997 is an early 05 with a 3.6l m96 will those part numbers be compatible? or did porsche change the m96 when the 05 997s come out?

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It's a fairly new option, within the last 2 1/2 years. It was not available before I retired (2 1/2 years ago). I was visiting the shop about 6-8 months after I retired and one of the Techs was telling me that Porsche was not offering the Reman complete engines for some models any longer, but were offering Reman short blocks instead. I had often wondered why they only had complete Reman engines, but when they fist offered them they were only 6-7k, about the price the Reman short blocks are now. Who knows what Porsche will do next !!

Re-manufactured short blocks are available and all the ones I have seen have indeed had new cylinders etc. By providing new internal parts they have become an option worth considering. However - without wishing to prime controversy I would just like to pass on that when we have stripped some that failed we have found the tolerances they have been made to in some areas to be greater than we find in normal production engines. For example one had 1st oversized pistons in one bank (that we apparently could not obtain spares for if we needed them) while another had one bank of cylinders with a very much larger piston clearance than the other which was unusually small. There have also been a few that failed very soon after rebuilds (admittedly mainly for racing). This made us wonder what the origin of some of the components was. They didn�t seem to have been plucked off the same production line as engines for wholly new build cars or individual complete engine sales. However we have also rebuilt engines using these blocks that have so far been perfectly satisfactory but they do of course also embody the very same technical design and manufacture that usually led to the original failing like scored bores and pistons (although they do have the latest IMS bearing). Re-manufacturing specialists that set up to do the job on a scale that results in them having special equipment and staff rebuilding the engines all the time � probably have more experience of what else to look for and to carry out a lot of other work that makes the rebuild much better. In this respect I absolutely agree with LN, Jake Raby, Porschetc3 (and other contributors) that point out that these other areas of work on the original parts that need to be re-fitted (like heads, valves etc) are also going to result in a much better rebuild with a better life expectancy. Not everyone that could fit the old parts onto a short block will necessarily have this level of experience or facilities. For example � we have 6 technicians and 2 managers permanently dealing with engine removal and re-fit, engine strip and inspect, cleaning, re-machining, road testing and logistics. We also have our own �IN HOUSE� precision machine shop with brand new CNC milling and turning facilities, design and manufacture our own replacement aerospace alloy Nikasil plated wet cylinders (converting the engine from open to closed deck design) and equipment for re-cutting valves and seats, skimming cylinder heads, honing cylinders etc and this not only keeps quality control entirely in our hands but also means we shoulder the full responsibility for all the workmanship. Our typical rebuild price for our superior specification in the UK works out around �7000 to �8000 (plus taxes) engine removed to re-fitted and running again (and obviously less just for a bare engine or set of cylinder blocks). However I do understand (and sympathise with) the difficulties owners must have justifying the costs of fixing a failed engine and that is why we (and I am sure others) have developed oversized engines so that after a rebuild the owner gets better performance as well as a reliable well rebuilt engine to a new specification for little more than their normal rebuild cost and competitively priced compared to a rebuild with a short block. If an engine failure is particularly severe and damages most of the internals that cannot be re-used - then a short block can also be a viable alternative but probably best rebuilt by a regular engine rebuild specialist with the experience and facilities mentioned above to make sure the rest of the re-fitted parts are up to scratch. I know from experience that the responsibility if a short block rebuild subsequently failed � would invoke difficulties for the owners and businesses involved and could lead to more problems than when a re-manufacturer is responsible for all of the rebuild and does everything themselves to their own specifications � when there would be no conflict. Personally we have no axe to grind except that we prefer to do the re-manufacturing ourselves so we are in control of quality and specification. If a customer prefers a short block � that is entirely their choice and their responsibility and there are plenty of engines going wrong for everyone to benefit from lots of alternative outcomes � but you cannot beat experience or volumes when it comes to learning how to do the whole job effectively and you cannot beat the level of specialisation and equipment those that previously conducted the rebuilds on a large scale have got and that benefits the overall result. So my final view and advice would be that there may be circumstances in which a short block is a viable alternative but that it would still be best to get the work done by those that also rebuild to their own specifications � wherever in the World they are � if they are prepared to do so (which most will not be) but in with most suppliers I am aware of � a better job for a similar cost is when they carry out all the re-manufacturing themselves. Baz

Thanks Baz. Your price range is equivalent to $10,000-$11,000 USD which if I am reading correctly, includes removal and re installation labor. That sounds like a great deal; I am not sure an option like this, at that price point, exists here in the US.

Enjoying the forum and really learning a lot from this thread. Porschetech3 ,Charles and especially Baz and others providing a lot of knowledgeable info on the heart of the issue.

I think our cost base is different in the UK and our location is in the North West of the UK which has a lower cost base than the South as well. Also because we carry out all the work "in house" we minimise transport costs and sharing profit margins with other contributors while we have a mini production line running that could only be sustained if the volume of orders continues. You can view our speeded up 3 minute video on our web site showing the whole process from driving into our factory to out again. It is available on www.hartech.org Specialists with lower throughput tend to occupy a lot of space in their workshops with stripped parts while they rebuild the engines whereas we have it organised in storage boxes and areas as well. We also enjoy a massive stores with thousands of parts already in stock for all the rebuilds - so there is no delay in the build process. In fact the longest delays are (1) the customer deciding what level of rebuild he wants and (2) them finding the money to pay for the job and collect the car! Baz

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How is the collaboration with Alpine Autowerks in Calgary Alberta cumming along?

I thought I would update my original post. I got my 996 back from Trophy Performance here in Las Vegas today. The car is running wonderful and according to Todd at Trophy the short block was comprised of 100% new parts as has been stated previously in this thread. It had the latest IMS with the large bearing, it appeared that all internals and the block were new as well as new chains, guides and even the short guides for in between the cams. I can't be more pleased with the outcome of the project and the wonderful work and professionalism shown by Todd and his crew at Trophy. Given that the crank was unusable, 3 rods were shot and the bore scored, I'm glad I followed Todd's recommendation to move forward with the factory short block. It took a while to arrive as I didn't want to pay air shipping from Germany, but the wait was worth it. Again, I could not recommend Trophy Performance any higher to anyone in the Las Vegas area for work on their Porsche automobile.

Kukaepe, that’s a good result and I agree that if you have so many parts damaged in your original engine the short block makes a lot of sense – well done. Strathconaman, our technology transfer with Alpine is going very well thank you. Our cylinder solution is quite different in principle to any others. It seems similar except we completely machine out the old cylinder casting area so our new cylinder becomes a wet cylinder and has no interference fits between 2 different components parts. It is also twice as thick as the two parts would be if a thinner liner was fitted inside a machined out area of the original cylinder and hence results in much more stable cylinder with more accurate piston clearance and roundness control together with better heat transfer. Our cylinders also fit at the top in a precision machined recess (and some oversized engine versions even have a support ring at the bottom as well) making them all closed deck design closest in design to the GT3 and Turbo replacement cylinders. However machining the original cylinder block to fit them requires a very high degree of accuracy that many traditional machine shops used to fitting ferrous liners would not be able to achieve. We have often been requested to just sell the cylinders for others to fit (and appreciate that sending heavy cylinder blocks to the UK causes delays and additional costs) but we know our solution is the best technically and our feedback from fitting thousands without any problems over the last decade supports that confidence – so we would like our solution to be experienced Worldwide but we are concerned that the quality would diminish the reliability of the outcome and prefer to keep quality as our first priority above volume sales. Alpine Autowerks in Calgary have a very similar philosophy to ours and have invested in our solution with reciprocal visits and machinery and are similarly more concerned to get everything absolutely right as a priority over sales and hence it has taken a little longer than others must expect but this has only been because of the highly technical involvement we have had and developing what is a much more precise production system than conventional liner replacement. They are ready now to take on the work for our standard production range and we in turn are increasing our orders for our liners (manufactured under licence by a formula 1 supplier). You would normally expect our solution to cost more than anyone else’s but in the UK we have managed to supply for similar prices to technically inferior alternatives because we invested in brand new CNC machines and carry out all the work “IN HOUSE” with a streamlined production process. I doubt the volumes in Canada will ever justify reproducing that so I expect there to be some additional costs but hopefully still less than transport to and from the UK and with the added benefit of no customs problems or delays. Our oversized engines are just beginning to become production items in the UK but there are some additional machining areas so in the short term these will still be machined in the UK but hopefully will eventually also transfer over to Canada. Crankshaft failure does kill the viability of a rebuild/re-manufacture and that is one of the reasons we introduced the oversized versions to encourage owners to consider a pre-emptive rebuild while the original internals were still useable. There is quite a lot of detail about our solution in our longer video on www.hartech.org However there are other ways of doing things and some become more attractive depending on the condition of the failed engine and some solutions are better than others, costs vary and the outcome and life expectancy and reliability also varies. But if you want the best solution with the best record at a cost that is not much different to many other alternatives and are in Canada – I would contact Alpine to discuss their Hartech alternative from now on. Baz

I await, with bated breath, and a heavy right foot, being able to get a 3.9L rebuild done in Canada.

That's all good news, hopefully we get more exposure from Alpine for the North American customer base to consider. Navigating the piles of M96 engines is confusing, is there any way to tell which is what? is the ending 2 letters just different codes for displacement? 996-100-996-XX vs TU or any of the other suffixes?

So can someone break down the cost of getting a short block and having the heads done? Is the $20k+ rebuild no longer a forced option now? Just wondering

rymerc: The part # listed on my invoice for the short block was 996 100 996 UX. The engine is a 3.6L 3 chain M96.

Would I be able to use a 3.6 block in place of my M96-01 3.4 and get a performance gain with the 3.4 ECU and other 3.4 components?

Lots of great info in this thread. Thanks for sharing your inputs.

In a box of parts that came along with my short block was a piece of thin plastic about 13.5”x10.5”x0.015” thick. Anyone have any idea what this is?? everything else included is obvious, but of course no documentation was provided.

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How did this turn out for you?

This is a very interesting thread for a number of reasons. I�m a little OCD and every time I go out to my car, before I put the key in, I literally say a prayer to protect the car. With all 6,300 modes of failure for this engine I get a little nervous, but I just want to enjoy the car because it�s so great. With Porsche appearing to make the short block price a little more affordable and making it part of their �classics�, I didn�t have quite as much of the butterfly�s after reading this thread. If this is true and continues to be true, this is the nail in the coffin for the 996 naysayers. These cars are now �maintainable�. Let the values increase!

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I did the same thing when I had my n/a 996. I couldnt get over the looming fear of engine failure and sold it to buy the turbo. No more anxiety

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My rennlist inspired 996 fear level is a 6 month moving average of repair costs. That said, agree it's a positive catalyst for the market. Analog sports cars are quickly becoming collectible, and the 996 just needs an irrational excuse to counter the irrational fear.

LN Engineering has a blowout sale on RND M96/97 rebuilt engines - $8500! This is an incredible deal folks! Nickies, new IMSB, and lots more. http://rndengines.com/

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Only up to 3.2 liters if I'm reading that right?

Chris, you are correct. 2.5, 2.7 and 3.2.

Correct. SSF Auto Parts has excess inventory they are wanting to move to make way for what we call "high-priority" m-codes. There are limited quantities at these prices, first come, first served. Here are the engines that are available at $8500 with no core charge and free shipping: 10 5240 101 M96.20 2.5 Liter 97-99 Boxster 10 5240 102 M96.22 2.7 Liter 00-02 Boxster 10 5240 104 M96.25 2.7 Liter 05-06 Boxster 10 5240 105 M97.20 2.7 Liter 07-08 Boxster, 08 Boxster Limited Edition, 07-08 Cayman 10 5240 106 M96.21 3.2 Liter 00-02 Boxster S 10 5240 107 M96.24 3.2 Liter 03-04 Boxster S, 04 Boxster S Special Edition 10 5240 108 M96.26 3.2 Liter 05-06 Boxster S

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Just my luck, no 3.6!

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I shouldn�t have sold my Boxster for my 911. Here�s the ultimate track car deal

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I figured at least a few people would hop on a 3.2 for their base Boxster since there is no core charge.

i have a 3.6 to whoever looking still in the car ! pm for info

3.4 short block. Went all the way to check out and they never asked for a core charge. Free shipping. I would think you might get a call when you do checkout about your core? https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...l/996100951tx/

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for that price you can get one from your local dealer.

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Easier & better to do it with stock heads so you don't have to make any modifications. Plus you can sell your 3.4 while it's installed to get a better price from it. https://rennlist.com/forums/parts-ma...6l-engine.html

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Indeed. I may order one for my track car.... great price!

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Just curious as they never did ask fo a core charge. It would be awesome to keep your short block and get a new one.

The dealer will ask for a core charge, or your existing core at time of order. I brought my core into them at the time I placed my order, thereby avoiding the charge. There was absolutely no core evaluation or inspection, just a “core” in any condition. IMO, if the price is without a core, I think it’s a significant advantage.

Byprodriver: I think you'd run into issues in the chain drive if using 3.4 heads. I think you'd run into computer issues if using the 3.6 complete as it has variocam-plus instead of variocam. If you find a way, please share! Also, the dealer does not care what condition the core is in. I bought a 3.4 longblock with a rod failure for 1K, then stripped off the heads; using the busted shortblock as my core.

The only requirement the dealer has conveyed to us is that the core does not have any "windows" in the case.

Charles: you would be the best resource for this question: Can you use a 3.6 shortblock in conjunction with 3.4 heads? (assuming the chain drive gear is the same; or a 3.4 chain gear could be pressed onto the crank.

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Where there is a will, there is a way. The castings are very similar, but there are some differences in the chain wells that have to be overcome to make such a marriage.

[QUOTE=gtred;15235245]Byprodriver: I think you'd run into issues in the chain drive if using 3.4 heads. I think you'd run into computer issues if using the 3.6 complete as it has variocam-plus instead of variocam. If you find a way, please share! Which is why I recommended he not do that & buy my rebuilt engine instead: 2001 3.6 litre rebuilt engine

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[QUOTE=Byprodriver;15236663] I�m surprised you still have it!

This is a great thread. Worth the revive. Especially since I just bought a short block yesterday!

From where who and how much please

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You can get them from any dealer. https://www.sunsetporscheparts.com/o...6l-996100996ux

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looks like they are on sale. $4 off...

I’m not mechanical but have questions I own a 99 911 with the 3.4 if/when my motor goes can I use the 3.4 heads and ancillary parts to mate them to a new 3.6 block what needs to be done thanks

No the 3.4 and 3.6l r very different motors inside.

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See post #154

Ok great I will continue to research 3.4 possibilities without going to JR

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Reading through old threads and came across this comment. I actually did this and it worked, but they did figure it out eventually and messaged me asking for a core. 1 year ago I noticed that ECS had no core charge for the 996100996TX, knowing this was a mistake I immediately bought it for $8,368.12. It arrived a few weeks later but I did not unpack the short block, I left it on the pallet fully sealed in the factory Porsche box, I was going to leave it all packed up and if ECS demanded a core or the core charge from me I would just return the short block. A few weeks later I did get a message from ECS saying "the vendor" Porsche required a core for the short block I purchased, I sent a message back stating that there was no mention of a core or core charge when I bought the short block and then they never messaged me again! My engine is still in my 911 and I have the short block sitting in the corner for a winter project. So yes it worked, but only once, because now 996100996TX is listed for $13,557.99 on ECS lol. So I got a factory short block for $8,368.12 and kept my core and didn't pay a core charge. FYI 996100951TX can still be purchased from ECS for $9,200 no core although it will probably only work 1 time just like 996100996tx and the deal is getting worse as prices rise as it is $1000 more then last year. Hopefully someone who wants a factory short block for the future without removing the engine from their 911 currently can get lucky.

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So, you�re admitting to being ethically challenged� That�s just wonderful. This is why the U.S. (and to an extent the entire world) is the way it is. Happy Holiday�s to all! 😃

Thats not what he is admitting to or saying. He is saying that the vendor f'ed up and stood behind their mistake as they should have. Its the vendors responsibility to advertise correctly. Better then the last vendor that had an old price listed and refused to send me the part unless i paid more.

Yeah, but we all make mistakes, and yet, many times, people don�t hold our feet to the fire. I read somewhere a customer accidentally tipped $7000 at a restaurant, but they wouldn�t give her the money back. If the shoe is on the other foot, then what? Double standard. Sometimes when thinking about how to behave, if it�s unclear, then we should ask �if everyone behaved like that, would still be ok?�

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Yes, I am 100% admitting that I could not care less about a multi-million-dollar company. I respect people, not companies who have been price gouging us every chance they get, you know for the shareholders. Have you ever heard the saying “buyer beware” haha not this time “seller beware.” Seriously though it's not my job to make sure ECS advertised there products correctly and for the correct prices lol.

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I didn’t screw over an individual person out of $7000 lol, I simply bought an advertised item for its advertised price from a company. Apples to oranges, people to corporation's.

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Just wanted to save those.

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Here we have the "shoe on the other foot" and the INDIVIDUAL PERSON got screwed not the corporation who made the mistake. How do thoes boots taste? I'd rather some company get screwed then De Jeeper any day of the week.

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Guess I'm famous now! Put them in your signature, then you can always see them

While losing the core deposit certainly won't make or break ECS, you admittedly screwed them out of the core deposit and you seem proud of it. You knew you were doing something questionable and/or wrong because, as you stated, " I did not unpack the short block, I left it on the pallet fully sealed in the factory Porsche box, I was going to leave it all packed up and if ECS demanded a core or the core charge from me I would just return the short block." Why would you buy it if you couldn't afford it with the core charge? "I respect people, not companies who have been price gouging us every chance they get, you know for the shareholders." Yeah, ECS is a big corporation, and you know what they do? They employ people, support retirement programs, provide goods and services, and contribute to the economy. Corporations are made up of people. And quite often, the largest shareholders are made up of various financial retirement program providers. You know, for people and their family's future well being. It's the same for most all corporations. As an example, Porsche and it's mother company VW. Why do you support them, especially with Porsche parts price gouging? You paint these companies as unethical price gougers, while at the same time displaying your own lack of ethics. It's the ethical shortcomings that I think some of the folks were questioning. Or maybe you're just a Social Warrior fighting the good fight! In which case I insincerely apologize.

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You have no idea what I can and can't afford or how I allocate my money for various things in life, but I don't like paying any extra money I don't have to. ECS didn't lose the core deposit from me, they didn't ask for it from me, they asked 1 or 2 months later after the transactions was completed which is pretty shady and UNETHICAL lol, they failed to honor their agreement with Porsche to send them a core, ECS and I had no such agreement, and if ECS wants to be the middle man in this deal they should probably have their **** in order. I am not even going to entertain the point you make about about corporations while you are somewhat correct look up wage theft (largest form of theft in America seems pretty unethical to me) and you will see they even steal from their own whenever possible, the sole purpose of a business is to make as much money as humanly possible, that's capitalism baby, our money in their pockets any way possible. Remember how prices went thorough the roof because of covid and now that its over these super ethical companies lowered their prices to pre-covid...right?

Let’s pretend you’re buying a 996 from a used car company, it’s listed for $15k but after seeing it you know it’s at least a $25k car. What do you do, buy their car for $15k or tell the company their prices are set too low and buy the car for $25k. The obvious answer is to buy the car for $15k and I can’t believe I have to explain this… Also, I said this is NOT EXCEPTABLE to do to an individual person but how many of you all have bought a used car that was listed cheaper than its market value from an individual seller, did you tell the seller that the car they listed is too cheap, no you bought the car and told your friends what a good deal you got. Lol but I am the evil one because ECS priced something too low and I paid exactly what they asked for, it had no mention of a core return or charge, maybe ECS doesn’t do core returns who am I to make that decision, like I said I paid EXACTLY what was asked. Rennlist is a weird place lol. Oh yeah, I forgot to add this to address the point about me being happy or proud or whatever that I got to keep my core and also $3500 or whatever it was core charge, the answer is yes I am happy.

You knew that it should have had a core deposit, full stop. That's why you stated you left it fully sealed on its pallet in case you had to return it. Dress it up anyway you want. At the very least, you pulled a fast one on them. Good for you... If you're not going to entertain any of my points about corporations, don't go on and spout your anti-capitalism, socialist BS. The used car purchase comparison carries no merit in this core deposit debate. Maybe if we throw in a trade-in with some similar shenanigans, it might fit. Thanks for the feedback.

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Anti-capitalism & socialists WTF are you on about???? I am playing the same game as them which is keep as much money in my pocket as possible, sucks for everyone else when I win I guess. It feels like if I was a corporation you would be on my side screwing De Jeeper over again

Since apparently some people want to talk about ethics and specifically my ethics on this CAR FORUM lol, let me ask some of you a question. Is it unethical for a major corporation to ask a customer for more money 2 months after the transaction was completed, money changed hands and goods delivered? I will answer for you, the answer is yes, it is unethical. I can’t believe some of you would jump to defend such an unethical company trying to bully a paying customer for more money later down the line because of their own mistake, disgusting lol. ECS and I signed the terms of our transaction when I clicked buy end of story, they should have cancelled the order if there was a mistake. If anything we were both unethical, but I won, sucks to suck, but again I did nothing wrong besides merely knowing there was probably supposed to be a core charge. All I did was possibly know something, they came after me because of a mistake they made which I would argue is more unethical. I paid what they asked, the horses you guys ride are highhhhhh /s

@sanyata imagine that @Norocehcap was just an average Joe searching for options to repair his failed engine, who happened to stumble upon ECS offering, seeing quite attractive price and thinking "Sweet, that's a bargain, I'll take it. With such price, I can actually afford to get the repair done!". And then, two months later the company comes back to him asking for more money (and a considerable amount at that). That's ridiculous. Average person might as well be totally clueless about core deposits and other stuff like that. As a consumer you are always obliged to read all the paperwork before signing it - how come a company should not be responsible for correctness of their sale offer? Should we, consumers, be burdened with making sure the offer is not "too good"? Come on. And if it's true that you can still get a core for this "lower" price, assuming they will come to you few weeks later for more money, seems shady as hell to be honest.

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Dude just own it already, now you�re being obnoxious. Yay you�re the super duper cool guy who �stuck it to the man�.

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I admit I am being obnoxious now, because I honestly can't believe the pearl clutching going on because I ...checks notes...dodged a core charge I was never initially asked to pay. Thanks I am pretty cool I guess 😎

While I enjoy a good debate, I don't want to continue contributing to the derailment of this engine thread into a pissing match about ethics, especially when nobody is going to change their mind. Sometimes when I'm traveling down the interweb virtual highway, I veer out of my lane, run over the rumble strips, and hit "enter" knowing it's going to kick up some dust. So, I'm backing off the throttle, getting back in my lane, and wish everyone a happy and prosperous new year. Ciao!

Sometimes the shortest path to the moral high ground is through the mud.

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So, let me get this straight, you purposely “veered out of your lane to kicked up dust” to fuel a debate about ethics, on a car forum thread, about engines, with a total stranger on the internet, because you were bored, and now you want the derailment you helped start to end… cool Thanks for the feedback.

I checked and now that short block from ECS tuning isn�t available now. It was there the other day when I checked. Joey

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I also noticed that, the price was removed a few days ago but the listing was still there, now the listing for 996100951tx is completely gone, someone here probably informed ECS about my post.

Makes me laugh to see a discussion about failed m96 engines and moral high ground, ethics, and virtue... Lets get real, We are talking about getting a decent price oem porsche replacement engine for the defective design m96 engine designed by bean counters. Porsche knew immediately out of the gate the bean counter m96 was defective and not worth upgrading and or repairing its many many shortcomings. Proof is Just look at what they did for the 996 gt and turbo cars. They used a real Porsche engine, sturdy, reliable, powerful and easily rebuilt/modified. Mezger engine doesn't have chains running up both sides of the engine, or 1 casting heads, or non nik-sil cyls, no dry sump, 1 time use blocks, all for cheap mass production. The slew of defective structure problems was know from the design stages of the m96 engine, yet Porsche went with it to profit regardless of the financial pain of loyal Porsche owners. Many of us don't want to admit it, but we shouldn't have to deal with all the catastrophic failures and weak point upgrades/repairs needed of the m96 engines, not from a Porsche. We shouldn't have to jump at the chance to get decent priced replacement engines to keep for that day when our m96 goes south... Hows that Porsche virtue/ethics going for all the owners that had predictable engine failures, maybe at very low mileage,,,Not ethical high grounds from our Porsche brand to release that engine for a decade. Porsche knows what it did. In my mind that was the low point in Porsche history when they let the bean counters out to screw all of us over... jmo

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Yes and No : while I agree 100% with what you said...There is more to it than that on a bigger scale.. The Porsche bean counters made all the profit and screwed the first buyers of the "NEW" 996 cars...It was only a few years before the trade-in price of a 996 took a nose dive...( and even took the Turbo with it) ..Everyone since then has enjoyed buying a 996 at a huge discount .. But anything can be fixed or re-engineered.. The much fabled Mezger engine has had 40 years of improvements to get where it is today,so comparing it to a M96 isn't really fair, try comparing it to the 9A1, because the Mezger will never be built new again.. I think the M96/M97 has some very strong qualities and some very weak qualities and if you upgrade or re-design the weak qualities you can be very happy, and if you dismiss the strong qualities and ignore the weak qualities, you will be very unhappy....at least that's what the Porsche Gods tell me..

My understanding is that Porsche replaced a metric buttload of M9x engines under warranty for years and years. My own car turned out to have a Porsche-sourced replacement engine, a fact which at least two of the three previous owners were completely unaware, as was CarFax. It's a 2002 which means Porsche was doing this with cars for years and years into the model run. RMS leak? New motor. Shiny bits in the oil? New motor. Yes there are questionable design decisions. But I don't think the company deserves all the scorn @allcool is heaping on. The fact that they still offer a short block for a 20+ year old car is also worthy of some respect. As for the price, I dunno but it doesn't seem terribly out of line. A Toyota V6 short block is $6K. (Although they may not require a core from what I can see online.)

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I also agree with all you've said, but added my 2cents... Well, I understand where you're coming from... and appreciate you and all the others that strive to re-engineer/re-design all the catastrophic shortcomings of the m96. Its a huge undertaking. But when I see a Porsche advertised video of how hard they R&D engines, you know Porsche knew exactly what they were doing when releasing the m96, and they pawned off this engine to unsuspecting Porsche owners for a DECADE no less... Its very disappointing to me, an 8 time Porsche owner, 6 brand new ones. Porsche engine on a Schrick g-force dyno simulating Nurburring race track testing oil sump... Good vid showing how real Porsche engineers gruelingly test engines before releasing them... You think the m96 pasted this test...lol. You Tube

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Well, I agree with most of what you say.. You confirm my point exactly... Its not scorn I'm meaning to convey. Being an engineer and many time over Porsche owner, and now own 2 996 cars, its more disappointment/disgust ....

Don't know who we are blaming here for what? 1. Porsche for making the M96 with alusil bores prone to bore scoring if you don't take care of the engine? Same can be said for all future Porsche engines. 2. European laws for forcing the hand of Porsche and all other German car manufacturers to eliminate what has worked in the past to meet environmental standards? 3. A parts supermarket (ECS) who is not Porsche nor a European regulator, for selling a short block and forgetting to document the fee? 4. A parts supermarket customer that decides to buy a short block for an advertised price knowing full well there has typically been a fee or exchange charged by other supermarkets, but that fee is not mentioned. So he buys the shortblock, keeps it wrapped in the crate as a just in case he needs to send it back or pay for it if/when the supermarket figures out their mistake? 5. Or lastly blaming any and all businesses because they are in business and it's the woke thing to do. Yeah, lots of issues. But not loosing any sleep.

I find the core charges interesting because they are not reusing the block. I guess the crank carrier, rods, and crankshaft are reusable, but I am willing to bet that none of those blocks are being sold with reconditioned rods and cranks.

Skip may have an answer. I was told 15+ years ago from a reputable dealer, that they are shipped back to Porsche for analyisis and they were not reconditioned. But I have no concrete proof either way. I also understand that the 991 and 992 exchange program is thriving.

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LN has said in either this thread or one of the other factory short block threads that they have disassembled one and they are all brand new parts

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I blame 1. Tricky to answer 2. The law 3. ECS 4. Me 5. lol woke Why anyone would lose sleep over any of this is beyond me. If GC can own a 996 since new how bad could they be, right, ugh

A new short block is a heck of a deal if anyone plans on servicing it properly from day 1. With what we know now regarding start-up procedures & oil changes, plus running fresh oil injectors, coils, plugs, maf and water pump, not to mention upgrading the IMSB and AOS, no reason it can't last for many hundreds of thousands of miles. Sure, additional common sense procedures need to be done to run the M96 on the track, but the upgraded parts and procedures exist and are easy to do. But if you want to enhance the engine and put it on a steroid program, you gotta rebuild it.

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I do agree with all that has been said, but just to add more context, and to share a different perspective, I want to relay that for sure the Porsche bean counters were the ones responsible for the initial build of the M96 engine, but the general public has some blame for the last 15 years of disinformation and unrealistic expectations.. Like I said, the Porsche bean counters made all the profit on the buyers of NEW 996's, there are not any of those still around except Glenn, ( and why he has great insight on the 996 because he is the only one I know here who bought his NEW and has used it like it was intended). Everyone since has enjoyed a huge discount. The trade-in prices took a huge nose dive in ~ 2007-2008 down in the teens for 996 Carrera, and in the 20's for a 996 Turbo. Even the 996 GT3 took a big hit.. Then the general public started taking about the Mezger in the GT3 and started lifting the GT3 trade-in prices back up, then they started talking about the Mezger in the Turbo and started lifting the trade-in prices back up, then they started talking about all the problems with M96 were exaggerated on the Internet and started lifting the trade-in prices of the Carrera, but continuous arguing over IMS bearings and Venders "fear mongering" and even whole Facebook Groups devoted to de-bunking IMSB Myths, and the arguing and division led to much disinformation and total splits into those who think the M96 is junk and those who think the M96 problems are all just fear mongering and the new buyers of used 996's have just been jerked around by these groups and the prices have been up and down and all over the place..lol.. Porsche of course can build a better engine than the M96, just look at the V10 in the Carera GT..but even with the cost of the Carrera GT..the R&D to sales profit is not great, same can be said of GT3 and Turbo, the cost of R&D and the cost to build them does not make the profit margin of the Carrera 9A1, Cayenne ect.. FWIW I'm positive "my" M96 would pass the Schrick Engine Simulator test..That Simulator was not designed untill after the M96 was discontinued.. As far as core charges...yes all the "re manufactured engines" are indeed new engines..I have used many of these and have looked them over carefully, and Charles has even disassembled them, and they are in fact all new parts. I think the "core charge" is just a way for Porsche to control the volume of engines in the market... There was a time when Porsche had an abundance of "Complete engines re-Manufactured" that they sold for $7k-$8k with NO core charge...but they only have re-man short blocks now..and the short blocks are selling for what the complete reman engines were selling for at one time.. I hope that sheds a little more light on the subject..

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This is exactly why I went the factory short block route, with all the info we have today I will get 100K-150k miles easy. I have an e46 M3 for fun, the 996 will become the daily again at some point like it originally was when I bought it.

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That was always my theory as well just to control the numbers, 1 in 1 out.

It is (also) a matter of (taxes and) duties, whereby the rates on remanufactured or refurbished parts and assemblies are much lower than on brand new items. To meet the definition of the former and fall into its bracket, the core charge is a necessary criterion.

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Ahhhh� it�s the two wrongs make right defense! Let�s face it, this is capitalism! We�re all guilty in some sense just by our participation. So what�s the answer to �greedy corporation�, government regulation? I�d bet that a no starter�

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The answer to corporate greed is individual greed, they take all they can take from us and we take all we can take from them, hopefully it evens out in the end but we know it won't. We always get the short end of the stick, except when they get the short end of the stick and then Rennlist gets pissed off at me . This isn't a fairytale we live in, life's not fair. Also I'm not really saying I'm right, I'm saying I don't care

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Reviving this thread but how many miles have you put on your �remanufactured� short block and have you had any issues?

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Life and other cars got in the way and slowed down the 996 project substantially. I got really involved with my M3 for a while prepping it for HPDE and also went back to college at Stony Brook University. I was on a roll recently getting a lot done on the 996, you can follow along here if you want Norocehcap’s 99 C4 AeroKit FSB swap , but I am having my first child in 2 days so who knows how much longer this will take me. I currently have both engines next to each other in my work shed as I swap and replace parts. This is the current state of the factory short block This is the current state of my old engine, next step is to send the heads to Hoffman. Also I live in NY and don't have a garage so the weather hinders my progress as well.

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Congrats on the baby fella!

Congratulations on the new baby coming, I too went to Stont Brook many years ago, my daughter was born in the Stony Brook Medical Center, still have friends on LI who got buried by the recent snow storm, hang in there life gets complicated some times but the memories you create durning the hectic years are some of the ones you hold on to throughout your life 😀 Rich

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Thanks buddy, and everyone else for the likes!!! What a small world @uscarrera , Stony Brook University is a fantastic college that kinda fly's under the radar a little bit, excellent medical facility as well. My wife graduated from SBU with a degree in Radiation Therapy, she was the reason I went back to college and also chose SBU instead of Farmingdale State College. SBU is about 6x further then FSC from my house but I don't mind the drive, round trip its 65 miles a day compared to FSC 10 miles, not the worse commute if you take Northern State instead of LIE, Northern State is a lot more fun to drive. Current pic of the 996 after the storm we just had, taco peaking out from under the snow.

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BUCKLE UP AND STRAP ON A HELMET! you're going for a ride😎

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How's this? I have no idea what to expect, I guess no one really does for their first. I have an incredible support system, my immediate family all live within about 4 miles from me.

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Def want to leave the visor down for diaper changes.

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Good call, I'll keep that in mind lol

Your Bell is on backwards! /s

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I feel like I have had my bell rung right about now...lol

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I was wearing a Bell back in my racing days and it saved my life in a crash. They�re the best in my book.

Your baby's 'exhaust' won't smell anywhere near as bad as someone else's kid's by products. Best tip I got - if wife is staying at home... when you come home casually say "you're doing the great job...." or words to that effect.

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I plan on her running a catless exhaust, not sure how much that will increase the smell...