Lifter or Tappet Clicking Sound?

OK, more out-of-warranty paranoia…….. Anybody had any lifter issues recently, on higher mileage cars? I know Ken had one back in ’06 but I can’t see anything else since. I now a have a constant “ticking” noise that can be heard from outside the car when the engine is hot or cold, at idle. The rate is around 3-4 TPS (Ticks Per Second) at idle when the engine is warm and is there all the time. It is a metallic sound, and is directly linked to engine speed, but cannot be heard as the engine revs get higher. It is NOT the oil valve piston (had that replaced twice, so I know it is not that noise) and is not radiator/ exhaust /intake warming/cooling. What I really want to know, is does everyone have this clicky noise or do I have to take it in to the dealer again? The radiator fan was replaced last week, and at the time they said no other faults were showing on the PIWIS system. Would a faulty lifter show up on a fault diagnosis? Am I just being paranoid? Cheers Jack

hmmmmmmmmmmmm, Jack... It does sound suspiciously like a non-inflated lifter... couple of questions before the paranoia sets in... Is the ambient temperature still pretty cold there? Are you using 0w-40w oil... and how loud is it? If it's still very cold, you might get some mild lifter noise even if the motor is warmed up - but it still should go away in a few minutes of easy driving... if it can't be heard as the revs get higher, then it's probably ok. I don't think this is an official "fault" to be found by the PIWIS machine... brad

Brad, it is around 7C today. But I gave the car a good thrash home tonight and as I pulled up on the drive it was still doing it. As for the volume, mmmm, how would you define it? If it was windy out, you wouldn't hear it. It is louder from OUR drivers side (your passenger). I need to have a really close listen in the morning after my commute, and see if it goes away at higher revs, or just gets drowned out. Will it do any damage, or will it just not perform at full chat on the one cylinder? The oil is and always has been Mobil 1 and is currently right on the full mark. It hasn't used ANY oil in the last 15,000 miles!!

44 F is not that cold, (compared to northern Alberta, for instance) but, still on the cold side of things... Make sure the Mobil 1 that's being used is 0w-40w - not 5w-40w or 10w-50w... your lack of oil use is impressive, so the motor is tight.. see if you can have someone else work the throttle while you listen to it outside the car to see if it persists as the revs go up and down... usually a non or partially inflated lifter is louder than you describe... it might also be an idler pulley losing its bearings - they can sound like that too when they go... Your only recourse might be to take it into the OPC and see what they say... if the lifter is not fully inflating with oil, they might be able to tell as far as the valve lift action goes and be able to spot it when they hook the car up to the big diagnostic computer (as opposed to the PIWIS machine)... if it is a lifter problem, I hope they might have some mercy, since the car is 60 days out of warranty... sheesh. I know they were not accommodating on the fan problem, but this is a much different kettle of fish... brad

Hmmm, mine has alway made a bit of tappet noise too, (2.7 engine) much along the lines that you describe, and more noticeable from the drvers side (UK) too. It does not seem to be particularly temperture senitive either, I hear it from cold, and also when the engine is hot after a good thrash. Nor is it consistent, it can vary. I have run the problem thro the Personal Porsche Paranoia filter too, but have so far concluded that as the engine runs like a sweetie in every other respect, that's just the noise it makes. Not sure I now want to re-run the PPP filter programme though! Do these engines have hydraulic tappets? (I'm assuming they do)

Bugger, I have done nothing but thrash my CS within an inch of it's life every time I take it out on the road/track/wherever.............. Now I begin to Worry..... You have already had stuff changed, and still you have problems.......... Now you are out of warranty? Time to declare war on Porsche GB and demand an extension to our warranties, as the US have (even they pay less for ther cars).

i have the same problem on my CS too. On sunday i drove over 30 miles and the temp was around 70. The noise was still there. I actually took my car to Beverly Hills Porsche Dealer to take a look or listen a couple months back. I was told it was normal to have lifters noise and i just have to live with it. So far with all the rattling, clunks and problems, I am very close to regretting purchasing the car. I am wondering if this is a ploy from Porsche AG to put out an inferior entry level product so that customers will upgrade to a more expansive product.

Well, sort of... they have lifters that are "inflated" by the motor oil and is part of the extensive oiling system... the little holes that allow the oil to go in and "inflate" the lifters are very small, hence my question to Jack about using 0w-40w oil, which must be used so that the oil gets in there... Some lifter noise is normal, which is also why I asked about how loud it was - trying to differentiate "just out of warranty paranoia" (no offense, Jack) from what's really going on Most everything that's used on the more expensive models are used on these cars too so I don't think it's a ploy... the more expensive cars have their problems and foibles, too... if you're not satisfied with your dealer's response to the problems you've brought to them, try going to anther dealership - there's a lot of them in the LA area that wouldn't mind having your business. brad

I've also have the same problem - for almost 2 years. The sound is constant, very "lifterish" sounding, and entirely a function of engine rpm's. Took the CS to my dealership, and they said it was an exhaust leak on the right side of the engine. Since I have Fabspeed headers (supplied/installed by others), I took it to the tuning shop (who installed the headers ) to get the header bolts tightened. Apparently they were NOT very loose and tightening made a slight, but minor improvement. Given that the engine works great otherwise, I just accepted the situation, but more and more I'm thinking that it's really a lifter problem. Since the CS is hibernating for the winter, it's been a couple of months since I've driven it, and it will be a couple more before it sees the light of day. Come spring I think I'll have to investigate the lifter issue further. REAL interested to see if others have the same or similar experiences ...

I hear it too.... It seems to have a cadence ... like it's trying to tell me something...but then the other voices in my head drown it out ...

Just to let you know, my car had a lifter noise from the very beginning. The first dealer said it was chain noise. That earned them a "no confidence" vote from me. I know a lifter when I hear one. Dealer #2 said it was a lifter, ordered new ones and replaced all of them on that (driver's) side. They can't tell which particular one is not right, so they replaced all of them. It's been fine since. Now if they will just fix my brakes... - Mark

Brad, yes it has always been 0W-40. So, it doesn't sound like it is just me hearing things. Quite a few others seem to hear the same thing, and it could be lifters............ Funnily (and rather typically) there has been no noise today. The next question is, if it is just lifter noise at and around idle speed, what are the consequenses? Is it doing damage? Is it causing lack of performance (it certainly seems to feel fine to me)? Are the lifters on every valve?

Yes. Best, - Mark

Looks like I too have the same problem. The local dealership is saying the problem is normal, so no fix. What's the long term ramifications of this?

I've had a similar noise with my 3.4 (and actually with my 2.7 Boxster before that) but it has never been consistent. I've had it in warm weather, colder weather (above 0C though), on start up, after it's warmed up, etc. Then, it has always disappeared, again without a consistent pattern as to when it does that. It might last for days, or just during warmup, etc. I'm not vouching any connection, but when it was clicking some this fall, then I changed oil and the click went away - could just be coincidence though. But I know the loudest the 2.7 ever got was on start up after winter hibernation - and that went away after a day, if I remember correctly. Otherwise, it isn't worrying me but it has me intrigued. I drive around a lot without the radio on either, and usually with a window down in town, where you notice it more as it can echo off the curb, other cars, etc If it blows up after warranty, I'll just tell my wife that it had a 3.8 to begin with! (not that she'd notice the difference!).

Also have ticking at idle when engine is warm, seems to be louder on left side, driver side. Took it to dealer to check, Service manager and mechanic had a listen and said its normal sound for these cars, then said engine sounded great ! Go figure ? :crazy:

I don't know if this is a 'fact', but I remember bringing my first Subie in one time to get checked - I had noticed what I thought was a valve 'tick' that wasn't consistent in nature (sound familiar?). Mechanic - who I knew and trusted - said 'ah, they all do that at some time', then went on to say that because the Subie is a flat engine the noise from the valve train tends to get noticed a bit more than in other engine configurations. And seeing as Porsche has a flat engine.............maybe it's just more easily noticed than on other cars we have? Just a thought..... Also, if you've ridden bikes, then if you've got a more open engine, valve train noises are typically a lot more obvious.

Mine has it too. US passenger side, UK driver's. It almost comes out of the heat exhaust hole. I thought it was a normal sound of these cars. It can be heard though.

My 2007 Cayman S (M97.21 engine) developed the similar/same RPM dependent "tick" that was intially random and finally became constant. Over the next week or so the car developed several other noises that sounded like the exhaust /heat shield rattling. After some investigation the transmission was removed and the DM flywheel was found to have failied (the car is raced). Our hope, therefore, was that this failure was the root of all evil. Unfortunately it was not, and when the car was back on the ground all of the noises were still present. Other symptoms included occasional rough idle and hesitation. Further investigation focused on the lifters and other valve train components, as the ticking noise certainly sounded like a lifter, and the problem was identifed as a failed hydraulic actuator in the variocam system (996 105 301 XX). The part was repaired/replaced and all nosies are now gone. It appears that the tick was a sticking actuator and the coincident noises were the chains, etc. flailing around as a result of improper postioning/tension (speculation). These noises did not develop until the actuator failed completely. I will not share the shops secrets for isolating the problem, but if you contact Dwain Dement at Vision Motorsports in Laguna Hills, CA [phone removed]) I am sure he can help you resolve your issue. Cheers,

Krokodil. I hope you can help me further here. Can you confirm that the heat/shield rattle sound was present AFTER the flywheel change? I have the ticking, and heat/shield rattle sound at 3,000 RPM. It does NOT go away when warm, and I can reproduce it often. But when I reproduce it multiple times, it needs to spend some time at lower RPM before I can reproduce it again. I have 0W40 in the car now, I do not know what was in it before. (The reason I found the difference in headers , was that I was spending some time looking underneath my car while my wife revved it to 3,000 RPM. Could not find the source and then my son woke up, and she was no longer helping.) I do not rae my car, and hope to have this fixed under warranty. I do have a Fabspeed on it, and I am afraid that they will blame everything on it. That is why I am spending some time researching this issue.

Tomasz, Yes, I can confirm that I had the tick and "heat shield rattle" after the flywheel was replaced. Both the tick and the rattle went away when the actuator was serviced. Cheers,

My latest update on valve tick: Started the car this morning, after sitting the winter (well, I started it one other time during the winter). Quite a loud tick, it was missing on a cylinder, and then the check engine light came on. I let it run for about 30s like this and then decided to restart and see what would happen. This time the tick was about half the level, the engine wasn't missing anymore and the check engine didn't come on at all (surprised me). So, I drive it out of the garage, let it run for about 5 minutes and shut it off. I come back about two hours latter to put it back in the garage (I had been giving it the once over) and now no tick, and everything appears wonderful. Who knows...... Just thought I'd write this to put my experience out there into the land of information in case someone else wonders what their 3.4 is doing.:cheers:

me too ! Does any of the voices say "you need gas, now", or " is that normal ?". I get them all the time. I've had my 08' cs for five months, and it's made me" problem paranoid".

If by the 'heat exhaust hole' you mean the passenger side vent then it's exactly what i'm experiencing. BTW, that vent is not for exhausting heat it actually let cool air enter the engine compartment (i placed a sheet of paper in front of the passenger side vent when the 'Engine Compartment Cooling Fan' was ON and the paper was sucked against the vent). As i've already told, prior to bought a Cayman i owned a '08 BMW Z4 Coupé 3.0si. The bimmer was known for a 'Hydraulic Valve Lifter Engine Noise' from the N52 engine. Mine did that too and i sold it when the warranty expired. In the Cayman it seems like the inner tappet for the "slow" cam lobe is not close enough to the lobe -- indicating a lifter problem (the lifter is integrated in the variable tappet) -- because we can clearly hear it when at idle. Tomasz, How did you fix this tick sound in your Cayman? PS: I really hope this thread won't be also closed just because some of us are 'paranoid' and started to hear 'noises' from our engines.

K-Man, I have respect for you because you seem to be a sober-minded guy. If you are not going to close this topic i can imagine that you are prepared to ban me from the forum. But, before you do that i would like to say to you that i don't have any kind of 'obscure' purpose in reporting the problems(?) i've been reporting. They are genuine concerns and i don't like to be told that engine 'smoke' and 'noise' are normal, and even worse, without any consistent reasoning to support that. It seems like buying a Porsche is a question of luck, either you have it or you don't. In my case, it seems i've run out of luck. I don't think this kind of approach is even good for Porsche's image that you and your forum so tenaciously defend. Porsche is about engineering not luck. I'm an engineer and, more importantly, i'm a honest guy and as such i only talk about what i'm really experiencing as truthful as i can. I can be wrong, of course, and i'll be the first to admit it if i will be proven so. However, as long as Porsche doesn't give me satisfactory answers i'll try to find the truth, with you or without you. I think that is the main virtue of the internet foruns - to learn! And, there's nothing about today's car mechanics(they are basically the same as they were a century ago) that i'm not able to understand. «If you can't explain it to your grandmother, you don't really understand it yourself.» -- Albert Einstein Now, to your question... My Z4 didn't always make the clicking noise as you can easily understand by the link i posted. So, i'm well aware of that particular problem and sound. Also, that was the reason i sold the bimmer after two years without any problem (other than that noise) when the warranty expired. The engine always felt strong (a beautiful engine, no doubt!) and with the exception of some oil consumption i never got any problems, warning lights or codes. Nevertheless, the problem was there! As for the Cayman, the sound is always there (albeit its loudness has been reduced) and it is rpm related. At cold idle, it is clearly audible. The reason i've mentioned the inner tappet is the fact that at idle it's the inner tappet that makes contact with the "slow" cam lobe and if the tappet is not close enough to the lobe -- indicating a lifter problem (the lifter is integrated in the variable tappet) -- then you have that characteristic clicking sound. The problem severity depends on the tappet to cam clearance. In first gear, i sometimes can feel a little hesitation from the engine between 2000 and 3000rpm when changing from part-throttle to harder acceleration. BTW, my car is not new, i bought it second-hand with 4700 miles. Finally, i have a question for you... why i'm the only one here in this particular thread that had been asked to explain whatever he thinks is happening with the clicking noise (or whatever you wanna call it) when so much explanations had been given previously by others (and not contested) about the same noise or about what it is supposed to be a noise?

I'll be happy to answer this. The reason why you are being challenged, not unfairly in my opinion, is because you have already established a history of throwing out extremely controversial and/or blatantly speculative statements without any specific technical evidence or experience to back them up. Furthermore, you have a nasty habit of making inflammatory statements and then completely ignoring discussion points brought up in followup posts by other members. That gives the impression that you are doing nothing but trolling. Additionally, nobody ASKED you to explain what you think is happening with the clicking noise - YOU posted your speculation without any request from anyone. K-Man S even suggested that you take your car to a mechanic and have it checked out via PIWIS - no response from you. That tells me that either you think Porsche will lie to you and you don't trust them, or you are not interested in solutions for diagnosing what you think are problems with the car. In other words, you're posting here just to be a troublemaker. This is going to be one of my last posts/replies to you, because personally I am tired of the multiple, justified complaints that have been generated about your postings - and I for one will vote for removing you. I'm just sorry that you felt you had to infect what was previously a legitimate thread with your rantings. Feel free to find another Porsche forum to annoy with your rampant, baseless speculation.

what do you think is making the noise cayman power ?

At this point i'm more interested in knowing what other forum members think the noise is about (i already said what i think), namely how Tomasz solve his noise issue. That was my question. Tomasz, How did you fix this tick sound in your Cayman ?

mine is quiet,still smokin, but quiet

CaymanPower, you have no sense of reason and that is the problem......not the car. You seem to take things to the extreme and if you say you're an engineer then I am very surprised, but wonder what sort of engineer, civil maybe?!!......and this is the first time after we have asked many times what your profession is that you have given any hint. So please do tell what exactly it is you do and if you like for who? I'll happily tell you my position and the company I work for to show my real technical credentials......... This has nothing to do with defending the forum or Porsche but to instead not let people make statements that are not backed by facts....which is what you did with your " all MY09 engines will blow up" and now "valve train noise sounds like it is the slow cam lobe clearance". Normally if someone was untreated unfairly by the forum then others would jump to their defence, but unsurprisingly nobody jumps to yours.......what does that tell you?! Hydraulic lifters will be noisy when the engine oil is cold, that is a fact and if you are any sort of mechanical engineer then you should understand it. The lifters adjust themselves through the use of oil, so yes sometimes before they adjust they can be noisy, but it does not mean you have a problem. "If it aint broke don't fix it" is something I stand by, especially in your case where I genuinely believe you don't have a problem so it doesn't need fixing. You on the other hand would prefer to imagine a problem and then strip an engine to find nothing wrong. :crazy: Your reasoning for selling your Z4 is just bizarre! I'd say either get out there and enjoy your car and post some real world findings or go buy and build a kit car that can be built by your trusted hands making sure there is no "luck" at play! I am starting to wonder if you even have a Cayman and not just a troll, because most would get a new car and post up more than just some rantings about smoke and valve train noise........:gossip:

Let me talk about facts then because that is all that matters: MY09 base Cayman smokes badly (huge clouds) upon cold start-up and every single owner of a MY09 Cayman know this for a fact, i owned one; There is a Porsche TSB addressing this issue regarding ONLY MY09 base Caymans/Boxters consisting in a DME software update which doesn't work and led me to believe that the problem was solved for MY10 Caymans/Boxters; I was wrong because MY10 base Cayman ALSO smokes badly upon cold start-up, not so often, but it does, i own one; Then there was the jamesp07 situation with a MY09 base Cayman which was consistent with the smoke upon cold start-up and seemed to point out to an early production batch manufacturing flaw which would be something common to every car manufacturer (see Z4 link ); Excessive valve to guide clearance seemed to be a very reasonable explanation because it was consistent with all the symptoms -- smoke upon cold start-up, oil consumption -- and the end result of jamesp07 's situation: engine failure with one sticked valve and a bent one; With the MY10 base Cayman besides the huge smoke upon cold start-up (two occurrences so far) i started to note a ticking noise from the engine which is consistent with what other members found out in their Caymans; It points out to a lifter problem (i had a similar experiencing with the Z4 i once owned); The Cayman handles like a dream; As for the personal questions i never take it personally and i like to stay that way.:cheers:

mine smokes on startup and i guess they all do cuz the cheerleaders call it normal. i wish mine was broke and didnt smoke

Cheerleaders? Here we go again. You've learned nothing either. At least learn something from your colleague CaymanPower and get some manners.

Not sure I want to chime in on this but here goes- MY09 2.9l Cayman , build month was Feb 09, delivery June 09, currently have 13k km. I have not observed smoking at any time. Added about 800 ml Mobil 1 0W-40 during break in and none since. So, I don't think it's correct to say all 09 2.9s smoke badly.

if it smokes its normal [thats what people who dont own a gen2 say] . so i dont know if you are lucky or you should go back to the dealer and get a smoking car

Our 08' Cayman 2.7L smoked occasionally, usually when cold, and stopped doing that after about 4000 miles. It used about 1qt of oil the first 2000 miles and hasn't used any since. The owners manual lists 1L per 600km amount as acceptable so if it's less than that you are good to go and I'm sure the dealer will quote that exact same measurement. Most of the Cayman owners I've ever talked to and also the Carrera owners seem to have some oil consumption the first little bit and that goes away. Soot is a by product of burning hydrocarbons, you'll have that. Just wash the car a little more often. EK

Almost ditto for my 08 base (2.7L) that I bought new and now has 10K miles. Once in a while it will make a small cloud at startup after it has sat for a couple of weeks, but that is rare. Certainly nothing of concern. I have never used ANY extra oil at all. My oil gauge has never even dropped one bar that I can recall. And no soot on the tailpipe. Interesting, though, that I've seen a couple of the 09 and newer Boxsters and Caymans and they all did seem to have soot on the tailpipes. That's purely an unscientific observation and I never saw any smoke, but I did think it was kind of weird considering that I don't have that problem with my own. I wonder if the issue might have something to do with how long you run the engine when you are driving? I read somewhere that one of the problems with IMS was that unburned fuel from short trips and a cold motor would accumulate in the crankcase and then penetrate the IMS bearing and wash out the grease. Hence I've been very careful to always try to drive long enough trips (>20 mi) to burn away any unburned fuel in the crankcase -- and I wonder if that may have something do with why I'm not getting the usual puff of smoke at startup? Or, maybe I'm just lucky. Or maybe, just maybe, my car is normal ...:hilarious: