Please Help !!!!

Hi to you all, Im new to this forum, so please be gently with me, lol, 6 weeks ago I bought my first porsche, a superb 996tt, mint in every way from a very high end repatuble dealer, who I will reserve from naming at the min till I get some feedback. Its been 6 weeks to the day since I collected the car from the dealership, as I stated the car is/was perfect, the paint work, the interior, the service history, all imaculate. The car was due a brake fluid change, so I booked it into my local OPC, the car went in 2 weeks after I had taken posession, the OPC reported that the l/h air con rad was leaking and would need replacing at a cost of £670, other than that everything was in order, I reported this back to the dealer I purchased the car from, they informed me to contact the warranty company to arrange the rad to be repalced, the warranty company basicly told me to authorise the OPC to strip the car, file a report on the fault, and they would then decide wether they would repair it or not, my response to this was who is paying for the OPC to strip and report the fault, the warranty company's response, ''not us''. So, back to the dealer it was, after a week of chasing the dealer, I took the car in on 25th July, on top of the air con fault, the car was displaying an ABS/PSM fault as well, also the car was not idling correctly. The car went to another OPC to diagnose the idle fault, it transpired the throttle bodies were causing the idle and ABS faults, so a brand new throttle body fit by the OPC, so far, so good, now the car was taken back to the suppling dealer to have the air con rad replaced, why they didnt get the OPC to do this, I dont know, cost Is what I have been told. Sorry if Im going on, but I want you guys to hear the whole story, I get the phone call the car is ready for collection, I collected the car from the dealer this Saturday just gone, 13th August, 3 weeks after it went in, bearing in mind, I have only had the car 6 weeks, so half the time Ive owned it, its been back in the garage. I arrive at the dealer Saturday morning, have a glance round the car, Im looking for stone chips, curbed wheels as you do, the car had been cleaned by the dealer, no paper work to sign, so I was on my merry way. The dealer is about 25 miles from my home, some town and motorway driving, so a good chance to test the car out, the first thing I notice when on the motorway is the steering wheel is off centre, when central the car is pulling to the right, so alarm bells start ringing, I get home after a steady drive and start to look at the front of the car, what I find is horrific, the bumper is complelty distorted and out of line with the wings, the gaps under the headlights vary by 10-15mm, the bonnet line is higher than the drivers wing, and lower than the passenger wing, the front spiltter looks like its been through a lawn mower, the under trays are scrapped and cracked, and even more worrying is the inner lip of the passenger arch has an area of paint that has been rubbed down to the primer/steel of the wing, when looking closer you can see a score line around the perimeter of the front passenger tyre that matches up with the rubbed area, I can only conclude that at some point the tyre, which was brand new 6 weeks ago has come into contact with the inner lip of the arch. To say im devastated would be an understatment, my pride and joy looks like its been abused by an 18 year year boy racer, not taken into a high end, established garage to have the best mechanics working on it. I immediately reported my findings to the dealer, they have asked for pictures which i have sent, I have spoken to a few people about this, and surprisingly found this is not un-common, especially with high end motors. My question to you guys is, where do I go from here ??? Independant inspection, lawyers letter, give it back, I need some guidance please help Thanks

Hi and really sorry to hear about the issues you've had so far from the car and the dealer....I personally think it's too early to look at solicitors etc...Put a list of things that have been damaged, etc and give the dealer an opportunity to fix them, I would try and opt for them to be repaired at somewhere you trust or get some recommendations from the folks here...where are you based? Alternatively get an independent inspection done which you may have to pay for but will probably need if it goes down the legal route... Once you get a final response from the dealer you'll know whether they are interested in your custom and how much they want to retain you as a customer! Hope all goes well. Roy

Blimey, thats awful, not good at all. Sounds like you have done all the right things with regards to to the conversations you have had with the dealer. They are all the types of conversations that I would be having. I think that I would be asking the question about them having it back given what you have said, as you certainly dont want to be thiking, what if this, what if that later on down the line. The other thing that a Porsche Centre would be able to do is to complete a read out on it, with regards to what type of performance, how many red lines it has had and when etc etc........ Peter Morgan would be able to do this as well.......... I know that there are some very clever and far more helpful people on her that I am sure will help soon. That is what I would look at doing first, you could always check with your home insurance to see if you would be able to use their legal services. Let us know how it goes......... and Good Luck Steve

Hi Peter. I'm very sorry to hear about your introduction to owning a 911 - especially a Turbo. You sound (very understandably) to be at your wits end. I would seriously consider talking to Peter Morgan with a view to getting him to do an inspection. http://www.porscheinspections.com/ It looks like you might be around the Essex area so you should be fine to get him to you. I'm trying to piece the events together but are you thinking that one of the members of the dealership has driven the car whilst it's been with them and driven it aggressively? I only ask as it sounds like the front of the car might have been grounded out(?). (Sorry mate) Are there any hump-back bridges near the dealership...? Get as many good pictures of the car and damage before you do anything else. Adrian.

deep breath..ummmm I think you could do worse than ask on pistonheads there are several well known traders (Henry F. Goose and RSJ) who regularly post there all are v reputable and I am sure would give an honest answer From what you are describing that sounds rather like it has had a large impact and this then opens questions about chasis integrity which quite frankly becomes a nightmare. With the greatest respect to Peter Morgan,I think under these circumstances you need a very sharp dealer,IMO this is not really his thing. I can never be sure if OPC's always act in the best interests of the customer, there is always the sneaking suspicion they talk up work.especially when someone else has to pay why not it is extra profit( perhaps I am being to cynical) I think you should certainly get in touch with the dealer and see where that goes if they are completely reputable and honest it may work out well but from what you are describing that sounds expensive to repair if not beyond economic repair from memory you can get the DME read there are many parameters monitored (I am sure Richard may correct me but it measures things like Yaw and pitch and rotation partly to allow the staiblity to control to work as well as rev ranges and other things)and sometimes a very accurate picture of what has happened can be compiled though this is usually porsche OPC territory and often the data needs to go to germany for full examination when mine was read they downloaded a massive pile of a4 sheets worth of data. When I had a bit of bother Tom Henry's brother gave me a lot of free unsolicited advice that proved helpful I did wind up using a solicitor and I also joined Which legal just for relatively cheap concise consumer advice and that has helped me numerous times since I did ask Henry F to do a valuation on my car though in this case it sounds like you need an assessment of damage I have to say with the people I use I would be most surprised to hear they were ragging the a**e off my PandJ most of all good luck and keep plugging away

Really sorry to hear about the problem. I'd be absolutely gutted too! If you do manage to prove it was the dealer, I'm sure that I and others would like very much to know who it was, so we can be sure to avoid like the plague. All the best. Hope you manage to get it all sorted. Chris

If the steering wheel is off-centre and the car pulls to one side, along with the panel damage, it is a good indication it has taken a big knock. I would take it to a good independant Porsche workshop, get them to inspect the damage, and present the findings to the dealer. The fact that they tried to pass the car back to you in that condition is unforgivable. Personally, I would want my money back, but I doubt it would be that simple. Perhaps our resident legal eagle, Rob Kellock, might be able to chip in with a legal viewpoint.

I' m confussed, you have brought a high end sports car that within 6weeks of ownership needs a brake fluid change ! then someone decides in needs a new air con rad ( fair enough they can go ) but it goes around or between dealers and someone damages it or basically thrashes it around. If this damage was via a OPC then i would be onto Porsche at Reading and if it was a independant then someone needs to know , also i would want my money back, and personally if you buy a car ,any car from a dealer you should not expect and servicing costs in that first year including brake fluid change which is not expensive and should have been done as a matter of course. 75pno

Thank you for all your responses. Well it seems we are all singing from the same hym sheet, I think I have covered everything you guys have advised. I had spoken to Peter Morgan prior to witting this thread, very helpful as always, he refered me to a specialist accident inspection company, Ive checked the home insurance and im covered for consumer legal fees so thats relief. The more i think about it, the more I am getting upset, I bought my dream car 6 weeks ago, and I think Ive had one day enjoying it, the day I picked it up, since that day it has been plauged with problems, I cant even bring myself to look at the car at the minute, as Richard has said I am even thinking about trying to return it, I have lost all interest in the car, I still cant believe this has happened, Ive been trying to work out when this could have happened, I have been an investigating all the possiblities, and found some interesting findings. Ill update you when I know anothing else, but if you guys can think of anything I may have missed please let me know Thanks again

Hi, very sorry to hear about the events to date. All advice above appears spot on (not that im an expert) but I do know a bit about evidence gathering and as much as you are at a low ebb take a deep breath and prepare now for any legal action in the future. You may already have addressed this, but things like: previous photos of the car (pre-damage), photos now, mileage when it went in to the garage(s), mileage when you picked it up, mileage now, how mant miles travelled before noticing something was wrong, the route taken by you from the garage to your home (to confirm road conditions/surface, etc), any witnesses with you in the car (to the garage(s) or when you picked it up), any witness that can speak to condition of car prior to going in to the garage(s) and when you examined it at home (family member/neighbour), exact time/date you picked the car up from garage(s) exact time/date when you found damage, check with local police if any accident involving your car has been reported (if another vehicle has been involved or roadside property/animal has been damaged it may have been reported to the police and the garage would not necessarily tell you) The above is by no means exhaustive but could form the basis for any legal action in the future and if presented to the garage(s) at an early stage may prompt them into speedy action and let them know you mean business? All the best, Donald.

Not really my field but it's not easy to answer and I asked a couple of others whilst hanging around at court today. On the face of it, at some point between dropping the car off with the original supplying dealer and collecting it 3 weeks later, accident damage has been caused. For arguments sake, this could have been caused by a stranger backing in to your car whilst it was parked awaiting collection. The collective wisdom of Preston magistrates court is that it is unlikely that this will entitle the OP to reject his car. It had a couple of minor mechanicals but these were fixed by the supplier at no cost. The supplying dealer's insurers will have to pay for the collision damage caused on the understanding that the OP can satisfy an evidential burden as to when the damage was caused. Given how quickly the damage was noticed, the supplying dealer should be held accountable. This really ought to be dealt with amicably with no need for lawyers. Good luck.

What...!? I take it that you've read the whole post..? "what I find is horrific, the bumper is complelty distorted and out of line with the wings, the gaps under the headlights vary by 10-15mm, the bonnet line is higher than the drivers wing, and lower than the passenger wing, the front spiltter looks like its been through a lawn mower, the under trays are scrapped and cracked, and even more worrying is the inner lip of the passenger arch has an area of paint that has been rubbed down to the primer/steel of the wing, when looking closer you can see a score line around the perimeter of the front passenger tyre that matches up with the rubbed area, I can only conclude that at some point the tyre, which was brand new 6 weeks ago has come into contact with the inner lip of the arch" You're right on one thing though, this really isn't your field. To cause this sort of damage would mean that the car has probably been launched off the ground at some point and come back down to earth with a huge force. Reversed in to? I think that the jury might be out for a long time on that one!

Adrian I think you are being rather unfair and far too critical of Rob's objective help here. He did actually say "For arguments sake, this could have been........." For most people this would suggest that it is meant as an example only - not what could have actually happened. Rob clearly stated that it was not his field and he has been most helpful getting additional information from his esteemed colleagues in the legal profession with valuable information that may be and helpful in making any decisions for a course of further action. I would suggest that you read your posted replies more carefully before submitting them because I for one took offence at your reply. I have not spoken to Rob, but if I was him I would not be impressed with what you have said. Criticisms like this are far too easy to post and they can really put people off being helpful for fear of being ridiculed.

Take it back to the original dealer - tell them calmly that this is the story so far. Because of these problems you have sought advice from numerous specialists and the Porsche Club Forum (16K members) and they have advised a full inspection and written report. These have been booked on the advice of Peter Morgan and others on the forum etc. Stress to them you will get to the bottom of this no matter what route you have to take. You do not at this point in time need to name them or to give anyone bad publicity but when the inspections have been written etc (and things are not looking good at this stage) you my have little option but to put your big boots on and start marching toward Legal action.

You could also try a pm to Julian Young - Solicitor on this forum Describes his interest as:- Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness Previously desribed as Arsenal suppporter with Attitude. He may be able to advise/help[8|]

Peter. Rob is in the legal profession and I'm sure that he'll defend himself if he feels the need to do so. I did read the post correctly and I definitely saw the words "this could have been caused by a stranger backing in to your car whilst it was parked awaiting collection." Now, I realise that this is only a hypothetical but it could also be argued that someone of this standing might have projected a less hypothetical scenario - particularly when you consider that it's pretty clear that the car wasn't just reversed in to. My point is simple: I am not in the legal profession and I'm pretty sure that I could have suggested the same hypothetical. Without being rude, I'm just not too sure what the post actually clarified. That is all, Peter.

Thanks Peter. You should have seen the damage caused to my old 5 series BMW when my business partner backed his new X5 into it in the work car park from 10 feet away... Adrian, with respect, you have been unnecessarily aggressive. Richard Hamilton said that he would want his money back but doubted it was that simple and invited me to make comment. I'm not sure why there is any need for cheap point scoring? I wasn't for a moment trying to forensically explain how the damage was caused. My point, and apologies if this was not clear, was that it was collision damage rather than some sort of defect with the vehicle, collision damage that was caused at some point in time whilst the OP had placed the car in the custody and control of the supplying dealer. They will have insurance for this. The circumstances do not, in my opinion, give the right to the OP to reject the car. The car was fit for purpose but has subsequently been involved in a collision. I still think that the OP will have to satisfy evidentially, on the balance of probabilities, that the damage did not occur before he dropped the car off or after he drove the vehicle away. This should not be difficult in the circumstances and further advice about this has already been offered above. I maintain that the situation should be capable of amicable resolution. Incidentally, OPC Bolton went round my car and the replacement courtesy car with me carefully this morning before we exchanged keys - whilst a bit late for the OP, I think this thread may serve as a useful reminder to us all to be vigilant when handing over our P & Js to third parties.

...And that is where we have probably lost touch. I am certainly more mechanically minded that legally minded and, as such, was merely looking at the situation in that respect. Apologies if any offence has been caused.

Thanks Adrian.

Thanks from me as well Adrian

No worries. There'll be no riots here! [ ] Adrian.

May be way off here but are aircon Rads not in where "damage" is? Can OPC vouch for condition of car before it went to dealer Good luck

Ok rob i'm here !!! want me to 'have a word' soprano's style? [ ][ ][ ]

Hi, You are correct the new rad that has been replaced is where the damage is located, I have been having sleepless nights over this all week now, but I have gathered some interesting information, I will reserve all the details till I have met with the supplying dealer and seen what they have to say. Thanks for all the information guys, really helpful, its good to know I think im doing everything in my power.

Hi What an awful series of events Regards jl

Any progress on this?

Hi Guys and Gals, I thought i would update you all with what seems to be a never ending nightmare. Well since my last post there has been a mountain of conresondance with no sense of any outcome becoming present, to cut a long story short, I wasn't prepared to have the supplying dealer repair the car, I had lost all trust in them, they did offer from the start to repair the car back to its former glory, but even so, I wasn't really happy with them carrying the work, so I suggested an independent OPC carry out the repairs, someone not involved in the situation, the supplying dealer refused this proposal, they also kept saying that the repairs they were willing to do were a gesture of goodwill, I couldn't believe what I was hearing, so I sought some legal advise and it transpires they have breached a section of the Supply of Goods act 1982, unfortunately this act states that I must allow the dealer the opportunity to put the damages right before anything else can happen. So, I went back to the supplying dealer and agreed for them to carry out the repairs, I stated all the items that I knew that needed repairing and also stated all other parts that needed replacing would be replaced at there expense, this was agreed, that was over 2 weeks ago. I recieved an e-mail on Thursday saying the car was ready for collection, I agreed that today (Saturday) I would inspect the car in the hope that everything would be in order, I will add, that my hopes were not high, and its a good job they wernt as what I veiwed this morning is not the car i bought in July, nor I think it will ever be. I was greeted at the garage this morning with the car in the air, on a ramp, so i could inspect the underside, new under trays and new splitter fitted, everything looking in order, then the ramp was lowered, and upon first glance the car is looking mint, fresh resray to the front bumper, and the lines of the panels looked alot more in line, it was only when looking closer I found what again is unbelievelby poor workmanship and bitter disappointment, the bonnet is still sitting higher than the wings, and not by a little, by 4/5mm, which is a massive differance, now the points of wings that come round the front of headlights differ, again 4/5mm differance, I opened up the bonnet to see the inside lines and couldnt believe what I saw, you can see where they have undone the painted bolts that hold on the wing, moved the wing and re done up the bolts, you can clearly see the were the bolt positions were as they havent painted the inside of the wing were it has been moved, the worst thing which I think is really worring me, is the 2 rubber bump stops on the under side of the bonnet where set at competely differant heights, the drivers side was wound right up to the top thread, and the passenger stop was wound down by about 10/12mm or about 2 threads, which if you look at you own bump stops they are big threads, the garage said that was ok as they are only used to stop the bonnet flexing when closed, If he thought I was going to buy that he must think I was born yesterday, I had to explain to him that if these stops needed that much differance to stop the bonnet flexing, then the bumper it was resting on clearly cant be level !!!!!!!, he still dis agreed with me, which again I could hardly believe as the it was there in front of him to see. After all this I started to really look aroud the car, and unbelively there is now another scuff mark on the rear bumper below the passenger brake light cluster, which wasnt there 2 weeks ago, and the passenger rear brake light cluster is loose, i can acutally move the whole cluster whilst fixed on the car by 10mm, the fixing lugs are also cracked, I had to leave the garge as I was so angry I didnt want to talk any further. I am now at my wits end with this, the summer is over and the car i bought to enjoy for the summer has been in the garage the whole summer, Im absoluted gutted. What I would really like to do is view another 996 turbo to see if my worries are really true, If their is anyone in the essex area or surrounding areas who wouldnt mind me taking a look at their car it would be really apprecited, I need to know that im not just picking holes in something, I need solid proof that there is a problem with my car and the repairs, I will drive to you to see your cars. Ethier email me or post here if you can help, Many thanks

Is their no one near me ???

Peter, You have mail.....

A big thank you to Paul for agreeing to meet me this weekend, if anyone else can help out, or you just fancy a Sunday morning meet we are planning to meet at J7 off the A1M at stevenage at 9am, the plan is to meet up and compare the pics of my car to yours so I can put my mind at some ease that I am right, so there you go if you can spare the time it's much appreciated.

Quick update for anyone thinking of joining me and Paul tomorrow morning (Sunday 18th Sept), 9am at the Novotel Hotel, J7 off A1M (stevenage), again I appreciate any help you guys can offer, I hope to see some of you in the morning

Peter, Hope any photos you took help in your quest to get either a full repair to it's former pristine condition or a FULL refund which I think I would personally be wanting.....! Good Luck & update me on the final outcome. Only pleased to help. Regards Paul