2001 C4 Enigne Drop - Tiptronic Removal

Hello everyone, new to the forum and am excited to be a member of the Porsche community. I recently purchased a 2001 C4 with piston slap. I am following the procedure on PelicanParts.com to remove the engine and tranny, and am looking thru the Porsche workshop manual, but both sets of instructions are not about the AWD tiptronic removal... Does anyone know if there is anything that I should be aware of removing a C4 tiptronic? Are there any extra plugs that must be removed? How do I go about removing the front shaft attachment (leading to the cardon shaft)...? Any advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.....Jeff

If you are going in that deep (piston slap) you had better order the Bentley Service Manual http://www.bentleypublishers.com/porsche/ You're going to need it. Good luck!

Thanks DBJoe. I was considering buying the Bentley manual but read a review here on Rennlist that stated they didn't do too great a job of detailing the engine rebuild. As I recall, the reviewer stated the manual is excellent, except the engine rebuild part...

Jeff, I have a new Bentley because I am also doing a rebuild on an M96.It takes you no further than the cylinder head -or at least my copy does not go further than that! Ditto Wayne's book. A factory Manual is on EBay for $800. I reluctantly bought an electronic version but it is tedious to use. My great hope is that Jake Raby publishes his book immediately because he will discuss upgrades.That is the part I am most concerned about.The task is daunting,time consuming and expensive.It would be a great pity to miss making some important upgrades to reduce the risk of subsequent problems -all for want of a book.manual. The first thing you'll need is a yoke. At last they are for sale at a reasonable price - vwalley on EBay. I hope this helps

Schnell, thank you for the great advice in regard to the yoke. I also have the Porsche manual in digital format and was thinking of printing out the pertinent pages at work... I am almost done with the engine/tranny removal and have the engine hoist, stand, torque wrenches, jacks...still need to buy the cam and piston tool set. I plan on taking it slow and easy. There is a great write up on pelican parts of an 886 engine teardown with D-chunk and dropped valve...definitely worth a look if you haven't seen it already. I am not yet aware of the extent of the damage in the engine. The compression difference in all 6 cylinders is not too dramatic and I have a desire to think that that my slight piston slap noise is really a stuck lifter, but I suspect that I most likely have a scored cylinder wall and a bad connecting rod bearing. I am planning on having my heads rebuilt/reconditioned professionally and am contemplating getting "Nickies" installed with new pistons and rods regardless of cylinder condition, but cooler heads must prevail (no pun intended :-) Please excuse any spelling errors as I am writing this on my phone.

Jeff, You mentioned lifters. I found that 22 of mine had jammed ! The lifters have been upgraded and there is a new part number. Nobody has explained exactly what the upgrade was. I have been trying to coax the knowledgeable Rennlisters to comment on the lifter interchange issue. You can pay $40+ each at the dealer, about half for the BMW part(made by the same OEM supplier INA) or as little as $10 for BGA HL5368 or BGA HL6330 and as little as $7 for AE FOL153. On 24 lifters this makes a helluva difference if it is the same part - just different packaging/vendors. Unfortunately I failed to get much help on this issue in a prior post. I have a similar project going on pistons and rings and the 'jugs' to fit the rings.But you seem to be doing a much more lavish rebuild than I can justify.Nickies sound a great upgrade! Anyway here is a helpful link to my 'research' on $40+ vs $7 lifters for your convenience: https://rennlist.com/forums/boxster-...grade-fix.html

Dude, this is very helpful!!! Thank you very much for this information. I appreciate your knowledge sharing.

I just wish one of the Rennlist Sponsors would hop on this opportunity and do some sourcing verification.There is a fair profit potential in Lifters. If at retail an amateur like me can stumble around and find them for $7 each but most sources retail them for $20-40+ , a Sponsor must surely be able to do even better ? I'll even volunteer my engine as a test ! I would love to get the scoop from INA the oem supplier to Porsche,Mercedes,BMW,Land Rover,Kia and so many more -on the upgraded part number issue. I hate being ignorant about what I buy and just throw money at a technical issue. YEMV some buy diamonds at Tiffanys ,some buy the same grade from the Jewelery District for less :-).

Jeff you mentioned piston slap. If you decide to replace just the pistons because the bores are still O.K.(??) I have a data point for you : a custom piston+ring set+coating from JE is $1600. If you plan on getting any machining done, your machine shop may be able to get a better price from JE. The alternative would be Sunset Imports in Portland(a sponsor) ,Pelican or fleabay.Others?

Well, we got Jake Raby's attention on the Boxster side of this Forum: Well fellow Rennlisters Jake has thrown down the gauntlet: "It'll take you guys a few years to figure out the differences in the lifters available. It took us that long." Let us combine our resources and find out which is the best lifter and why. And when we do, we'll share our findings with Jake :-) -as a thank you for all the help he has given us on this Forum. https://rennlist.com/forums/boxster-...grade-fix.html

Quotes source post: 11500035

Hi Schnell. Yes I was looking at JE as they seemed to be reasonable in regard to price. I really hope the cylinder walls are okay, but from reading all the stories online, they are probably scored. I also saw some iron sleeves online for like $600. I think that is very reasonable. If I need to re-sleeve then that just might be the way to go.

I suppose that before you get too deep into the project you should focus on the alleged 'piston slap' diagnosis. I wonder if the problem is not scoring but ovality in the thrust direction? I hint at this because until you examine all the critical areas,you don't know if the block is useable. That 'slap' may be just jammed lifters ? Have you examined the lifters yet? Slap and lifter tick (or clatter in my case with 22/24 jammed !)are different noises to the trained ear but it is worth looking in to?

You are right, I am merely speculating. I should have the engine out completely this sunday, and will start the disassembly during the week. I will probably know what the deal is by the end of next week... I looked thru the post on your lifter situation and it is very informative and well documented. I will be pleasantly surprised if it's just the lifters, and royaly pissed if the block is warped.

Quotes source post: 11499749

Not to be argumentative but there is no profit in lifters for these engines, even if one buys them at the dealer. My info is one of the biggest factors in high dealer parts prices is shipping. Porsche uses various shippers. Porsche parts department managers I have talked to tell me it is possible to get 2 sometimes 3 parts deliveries of parts from Porsche's warehouse in one day each via a different shipper. Because Porsche uses a number of shippers, it has not signed on with a specific one to get a more favorable shipping rate which could lower the cost of shipping parts. Anyhow, only a few, very few, owners/DIYer's replace lifters anyway so the number of owners seeking new lifters is very low. There is not enough volume to suggest a good return on investment. Next at $7/each no parts supplier, parts maker, is going to get rich off of lifters even if the $7 was 100% profit. Given the small number of sets of lifters being replaced even if the dealer $40/each lifter price was 100% profit no one's getting rich. $480 for a set of 12 is chicken feed. I suspect this is one reason why for instance Jake R. isn't in the parts business. The money is selling the parts assembled in an engine.

Pelican sell INA Lifters and make a profit(I presume). Part #: 996-105-041-72-M40 Brand: INA $21.50 each. http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/..._pg2.htm#item6 Rock Auto sell the same INA (?) part for $7.28 ea. and also make a profit. AE # FOL153 http://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/x,cata...AE_FOL153.html Hopefully Rock Auto does not read this,match Pelican and take that whopping great profit opportunity before I buy :-). It would be better than the typical margin on auto parts - http://ycharts.com/companies/PRTS/gross_profit_margin Hopefully I can find similar opportunities for generic pistons and other expensive engine parts. I just need a little help on compatibility of what I find.

Ina and AE are not the same part/company/etc

Thanks for that.Do you have any specific Interchange reference to help ? From the research I quoted above it seems: INA 420.010.410 = Porsche 996.105.041.72. I am trying to get confirmation from Schaeffler to share with the Forum.

I've got an Audi with the 1.8T engine. Somewhere at some point there was a discussion on the lifters, and there were differences as far as weight and the actual design. Slight differences, but differences nonetheless. INA is German, and as u know, to a lot of porschephiles, that means something, if not intangible. The best source to ask may be Pelican.

I am already communicating with INA .They have been helpful regarding the Interchange issue but nothing definitive yet. My current bedside reading on the subject is this.Here is the English version: http://www.schaeffler.com/remotemedi...Comp_de_en.pdf

I did a quick search on lifters and found a bunch of things on planet 9. It appears most are using the newest part #, which INA appears to be OEM. Are the lifters the primary fail cause, or secondary to something else? Personally, if I were that deep in, Id stick with INA. Would hate a couple hundred dollars to make a difference at all. As you can tell from Jakes post, there clearly ARE differences, and it can be fatal. Just some food for thought. Glad youre looking into things tho! very interesting

The 996...50 to 996...72 lifter revision does not have a corresponding INA revision number.INA part number was unchanged(at least in my research) INA 420.010.410. I am trying to get an explanation/clarification for that from INA. I suspect the issue was tolerances and design of the small hydraulic piston in the bucket -to prevent it jamming closed at the top of the bucket. The INA brochure linked above hints at these design revisions as the product evolved .

I am in the market for a 996, looking at C4S among C2s. Did some searching, can't find the answer to a question, maybe this thread will work. Also of course I'm studying everything possible about the IMSB. Asked my regular Porsche indy repair shop about the cost of replacing the IMSB as a preventative measure. The answer was huge labor ..... "because on a Tiptronic car the trans and engine both have to be removed together, and then split, to service the IMSB." So, I was wondering if someone can confirm this please? Or, perhaps, I was wondering, is the problem that the combination of Tiptronic and the drive shaft to the front necessitates removing the engine / trans together. Any comments welcome. Thanks you. This thread clearly shows how to remove the Tip by itself and leave the engine in place. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...with-pics.html

A qualifier is -what other jobs need doing 'while you are in there" .That may mean it is easier to remove the entire assy. But you really should stat a new thread?