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YOUR RESEARCHDifferences between M96.03 and m96.05?
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tracing down the debris
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Reported cause · Original poster
The big problem is tracing down the debris from the damage to the scavenge (secondary) pump.
Leading evidence: 'tracing down the debris' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'tracing down the debris' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check exhaust shields' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Block has been cleaned, crank carrier has been reassembled, My ims came back from LN inspected and Ims Solution installed, rods have been reassembled with new bearings and ARP bolts, 1,2,3 pistons/rods are in the block as well as the crank carrier.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Some of us replaced all 24 when they were still $40 each !Be glad that companies like Warehouse 33 have at last sourced cheaper INA lifters.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
I'm guessing at least the oil pump housing will need to be replaced, possibly the gears as well.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Unfortunately I don't know how the motor ran prior to disassembly.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Block has been cleaned, crank carrier has been reassembled, My ims came back from LN inspected and Ims Solution installed, rods have been reassembled with new bearings and ARP bolts, 1,2,3 pistons/rods are in the block as well as the crank carrier.
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Ive tried pumping them submerged in oil, no difference.
I've been searching and googling and I can't seem to find any information.
I'm trying to find the differences between the 2002-2005 m96.03 3.6L and the 2005-2008 m96.05 3.6L. All I can find is that the m96.05 fuel system is returnless and the m96.03 isn't. I believe both are Variocam Plus. Are the short blocks interchangeable? Cases? Heads? Etc..
Thanks in advance
difference is .02
no but seriously, why do you want to know? its probably because production method changed slightly or something really not important as a consumer e.g. they started using a different supplier for a few components from the new number.
that is all it will be.
I bought a complete 3.6 engine out of a 30k mile wrecked 2005 997. The oil scavenge pump took some damage in the wreck. I'm in the process of determining the extent of the damage now. I mostly bought to take it apart as a learning experience, knowing I could probably part it out and get my money back.
I may keep it if the parts are compatible with my 2002 996.
george
this may shed some light on it
http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=101...&highlight=m96
as above main difference is the ims bearing design. rest of engine same?? me thinks
Thanks for the help. According to the info on 911uk.com, my serial number is before the changeover to the larger non-replaceable bearing. Good news in my opinion. I'll find out for sure soon.
The big problem is tracing down the debris from the damage to the scavenge (secondary) pump. I believe when the car was hit, the pump was hit and locked up. The drive tang on the pump snapped off, as well as the driver on the cam sprocket. Some debris was laying directly beneath the sprocket, but not all. The oil pan was clean. I need to disassemble further.
Glad i could help Re. engine numbers.
Good pictures you have taken,
be sure to keep all 'debris bits' to try and put together and then you can be more confident you have them all, a real good flush of all oil-ways etc. will be needed, last time i did something similar, i got all the bits into the garden and used
jet-wash machine , then dried off with lint free material and placed all components in my airing cupboard for a few days to be sure of no water,all to the non-amusement of my other half i may add
More progress and pictures...
Small shard of debris embedded in oil pump housing on left side (looks like an eyelash).
You can see where the shard was rubbing on the left gear.
I'm guessing at least the oil pump housing will need to be replaced, possibly the gears as well.
More debris deep in the front chain area.
A disassembled engine takes up so much more space than an assembled engine.
The bores look ok, not amazing. Some slight wear on cylinders 1,3,6. It's hard to see in the pictures. There is a small scratch on the top of cyl 3 that will catch a fingernail. Unfortunately I don't know how the motor ran prior to disassembly. I don't know if it consumed oil, or had low compression. I'm trying to determine if this if above or below average wear for a 30k mile motor.
Main differences are with the coolant console, and secondary air mounting positions. Some M96.05s have their own unique camshafts, that are not catalog items. The M96.05 was in the middle of the era where the IMSB could be M96, or M97, dependent upon year model.
Don't be fooled.. That scavenge pump ingested a piece of debris, probably shed from a failing timing chain, and seized.. Then it broke the drive. These pumps are huge vacuum cleaners, and have tight tolerances, not letting anything through them that they can't pulverize. Typically when this happens the cam sprocket will slip to full retard, and the exhaust valves will hit the pistons.. You got lucky because this one is still at the center of the elongation, meaning the engine shut down abruptly after the ingestion.
So does ^this^ mean 997 owners are almost as neurotic as 996 owners? Are they beginning to show signs of KKS (Krazy K Syndrome) ?
** Sorry for the Hijack** Nice thread w/great photo's
Jake, you could be right. I mentioned that the engine came out of a wrecked car and the engine had damage. Some of the damage was directly to the outside of the scavenge pump. I assumed this is what locked it up. I can't be sure. I'll post pictures of the outside of the pump later. I might disassemble the pump to see what it looks like inside.
I'm planning on pulling the IMSB today. Although this came from a 997, it has the small 6204 bearing. The engine number is M960569505771. The info provided earlier proves true in this case.
"997 Carrera 3.6 with engine numbers from M96/0569507475 are the new IMS design.
M96/05 = 997 3.6 Carrera NA
6 = 6 cylinders
9 = design revision
5 = year (2005)
07475 = cumulative production serial
This means some MY2005 benefit and all MY2006 onwards benefit."
IMSB is out. The tube was full of oil. The ball bearing was soaked in oil but no noticeable damage. The bearing felt smooth and a little stiff, like the seals were dragging, but still full of oil.
I disassembled the scavenge pump to see what killed it. It seems pretty clear that the dent on the outside cover brought it to a screeching halt. I found no debris inside. The sheet metal outside outside cover/housing is surprisingly thin. One whack and it will bind and break. Keep that in mind if you ever get rear ended, be sure to have you insurance adjuster look at the scavenge pump cover and reference this thread. You may get a new motor out of the deal.
Sidenote: The way the scavenge pump vane moves is super cool, almost mesmerizing. I suggest taking one apart if you have the opportunity.
Even though I'm pretty confident the scavenge pump failure was a result of the accident, the timing chain and intermediate shaft and sprockets still had to bear the load of snapping the drive off the scavenge pump. One of Jake's documented failure modes shows the sprocket coming loose from the intermediate shaft. Is this a possibility with a failure like mine? Are all of the sprockets on the IMS pressed on? Is there any way of checking if they've moved or are coming loose without splitting the cases?
I have a feeling I will be splitting the cases...
Pull that pump apart and look for signs that it ingested something. Look for dents/ dings in the vane or the housing. You might even find the offending debris inside the pump.
The sprockets on the IMS are a light press fit only. All of them. Nonwaynto check them without disassembly of the engine.
Engine block split and glad I did, I found debris in places that I would have never been able to clean out.
I'm wondering if it's worth bringing to an engine shop to have it cleaned? Or do it myself with degreaser and hose and brushes?
Its been a while since I posted about this project. Many parts have been ordered, reassembly has begun. Block has been cleaned, crank carrier has been reassembled, My ims came back from LN inspected and Ims Solution installed, rods have been reassembled with new bearings and ARP bolts, 1,2,3 pistons/rods are in the block as well as the crank carrier.
This weekend I had some time and I made my own wrist pin clip installation tool out of some scraps I had lying around. I tested a few times on each of the 4,5,6 cylinders and it seems to work very well. The tool threads into the block the same way the access plug does. It has a set screw that locks the tool into three different positions for each piston. The tool cant slip out and cant miss. I also made a mini tapered ring compressor to get the ring into the tool. They are a real bugger.
I'm feeling confident about clip installation and I think I'm ready to seal the block halves together, but I can't find much info about sealant application. What little info I've found I'm not sure I can trust. Logray's build shows a 1.32 mm bead of dreibond. I have a good idea where the sealant goes, but looking for more definitive info so I don't have to do this twice.
Looking good! The sealant bead is 1.5mm wide and the location of sealant is here:
http://workshop-manuals.com/porsche/...res/page_1609/
Search up and down at different levels and you'll see it has tons of useful info
Update: Assembly is going well. Rotating assembly is in the block. Heads are on with new valve seals. Ims solution is in. Good, used oil pump is on.
Im getting ready to install cams, but i'm unsure about the lifters. Some will compress, and some won't. Some of the ones that compress will bottom out, others don't. Ive tried pumping them submerged in oil, no difference. What am i missing? Is there an inspection procedure for lifters? I havent found anything.
Thanks in advance
I'm all for preventative measures, but is it really such a poor design that they should all be replaced after 30k miles?
What about intake side? Any way to inspect other that visual wear on the outside?
The design was upgraded by INA. Some of us replaced all 24 when they were still $40 each !Be glad that companies like Warehouse 33 have at last sourced cheaper INA lifters. When I bought mine, it was "cheaper"to buy them in Europe and ship here than to buy from any USA source !
If they don't work on the bench ,how do you imagine they will work in the engine?
Have you dismantled any of the jammed ones ? Much written about this in Search.
Particularly the pre-lubrication process when rebuilding the head.
These exhaust lifters are not special at all. Even Hyundai use the exact same lifters.
The intake ones you can use your thumb to press hard to push the plunger up and see if it's smooth and if there's any abnormal wear. Do not wear glove...it may get caught when the plunger retracts.
I think I found the thread I was looking for.
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...re-lube-3.html
Seems like a squishy lifter is just not properly bled. Looks like some guys use heat to bleed the air out.
But if there are known issues with exhaust lifters and they aren't terribly expensive, maybe I'll just replace?
I think there is an Audi part that is the same exhaust lifter for less. Just replace them all.
I'm curious if all the sensors and such work just fine from the M97 swapped into a 996.
These lifters used to sell for $40-70 as indicated in the link from George .
At only $14 each , replacing all of them is a simple choice to make ? Pelican charge over $20 ea.
Just imagine one of the old ones starts 'ticking' and you need to replace it.....
http://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/7098...r-99610504172/
http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/...5-041-72-M2040
http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/...5-041-72-M2040
New exhaust lifters are in. I'm in the process of timing bank 4-6 as instructed by the factory manual. Everything seems pretty straight forward. The only part that has me confused is..
" The four threaded bores in the camshaft flange must be approximately half covered to the right by the slots of the chain sprocket in the engine direction of rotation."
I've tried a few times aligning the screw holes and slots as shown in the picture when placing the exhaust sprocket on the exhaust cam. But when I get to the step where I need to install the screws, the slots and holes are still situated in a position where I cannot install the screws. What am I missing?
Ive been putting in a lot of hours on this project in the last two weeks. Our first baby is on the way, trying to wrap this project before he comes.
First start - YouTube
After the the first start i let it get up to temp, 5-10 mins. Drained the oil and dropped the pan.
I drove the car for the first time on saturday. No issues so far. Cool temps. Good oil pressure. No leaks. No CELs. Runs strong. Knock on wood. Had to play around with the IMS Solution oil line a little to find a good position to clear the sway bar and coolant pipe. Not a big deal.
I'll be daily driving for a while,keeping a close eye on things.
I know.. Its not a 996. This started out as a build for a 996. Until i found a home for it in a 997. Besides, the 997 forum is pretty boring.
Thanks guys! I'm afraid to total the parts cost on the rebuild.
This picture should give you an idea of what all was replaced. This is all my leftover junk.
pile o' junk
Nice 997! Great work.
Those mangled engine pictures are hard to look at!
Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode when Jerry and Elaine go to visit what they think is Jerry's salvaged Saab and the cop is describing what they had done to it... haha
Not sure if the reference is completely relevant but thats what I thought of!
The Flat 6 Morgue is where these things are disassembled... Sometimes with a hammer when they are this bad.
This is one just exploded after a range 2 missed shift about 45 hours before the kaboom... No advance warning, just an explosion at 5k RPM while accelerating... The hypothesis is that a rod bolt was injured in the missed shift, then it just came unglued.
I knew there was nothing to save from this one, we only pulled it apart to document it, and to get some pieces to make art from.
700 miles since rebuild, only issue so far was a leaky coolant hose. It was a pin hole on the lower right rear elbow near the exhaust. I'm guessing the heat cooked it over time. Otherwise smooth sailing.
I had a little time to disassemble the engine I pulled out of the 997, previous owner claimed white smoke 1-3 bank, brought it to a dealer. The dealer saw evidence of coolant on cyl 2 spark plug. PO saw the repair cost and sold to me.
Sure enough, crack on #2 cyl.
Not sure what caused it, water pump impeller seems fine.
Next step?... Idk. 4.0 Nickies? or part out?
Having some issues. 1100 miles since build. The engine developed a slight tick between 2000-3000 rpm. The tick is very slight, only noticeable when outside temp is below 65 deg F. Above 65 deg it is unnoticeable. Tick is present regardless of engine temp. Searching hasn't shown any similar ticking symptoms.
Anyone had a similar condition?
Also getting random misfires. P0300, P0306, P0304. Not sure if the misfires are related. When It does misfire I can feel the idle become rougher. Though it usually corrects itself shortly.
I'm tempted to pull the motor and inspect valve train. Further diagnosis while engine is still running in the car might be beneficial?
Please help determine a logical course of action. Thanks
Simple stuff first?
1. Loose spark plugs?
2.Use an Engine Ear to precisely locate the source of the tick.
Until you have narrowed down the location it is just speculation.
I'll get it up in the air to check plugs, I'll check torque on exhaust manifolds and collectors also.
Coils are most likely originals from 05. I have spares, but my spares are old as well. Maybe I'll get a few new ones to rule out the coils.
Steelman Engine Ear on the way. It might be tricky listening for the noise, as I can only hear at 2-3k rpm. Maybe I'll recruit my wife to step on the gas.
Finally found some time, I believe the misfire is resolved.
Bad injector on cyl 6. The misfire would always occur on cyl 6 after revving the engine, the misfire would last anywhere from 5-20 seconds. This should have been a giveaway, as it is my understanding that the injector will hang open when malfunctioning.
Replacement of all three tensioners seems to have solved the ticking noise. Next time I'll install new tensioners during rebuild.
When spring comes I will be daily driving again and I'll know for sure if both issues are resolved.
If so , it seems #6 injector was incapable of supplying sufficient fuel at full power so produced a lean misfire ?
So what was the specific problem with #6 ? If it is a 4 hole injector, it may be worth removing the filter basket and flushing the injector with Techron(or similar). The filter baskets are generic Bosch and are inexpensive.There are diy pressure testing rigs on Youtube.
This may seem needless nerdiness but if #6 filter basket has debris in it ,what about the others ? Or if some of the holes/pintle have deposits,maybe the rest are similar ?
My thought was injector stayed open (rich) when revving and didn't return to idle duty cycle. Maybe the experts can clarify. Long term fuel trims may have shown this as well, rich or lean. I don't know how to interpret fuel trim data.
All I did was swap injectors since I have a 2nd complete engine. Problem solved it seems.
I kept the bad injector hoping to figure out how to test or clean at a later date.
I had some running rich codes in fall and misfires recently after a nearby coolant geyser. After replacing injectors & plugs mine's running strong again. Original coil packs were the ones that apparently failed. 03 with 81k miles. Glad you seem to have found the issue.
