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YOUR RESEARCHAlternative to IPD Plenum
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l have installed an afe intake for a bmw and i really don't expect this after seeing the dyno result in afe's advertisement:
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With that said, I'm running an IPD but I never had the 25hp expectation going into it.
Test by impartial third parties the improvement seems
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These plenums have been discussed ad nasuem here and on other blogs and when tested by impartial third parties the improvement seems to be nil.
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Suggestion
I see ECS Tuning has a kit including the throttle body I'll check Pelican also.
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Hi guys,
I am looking to upgrade my intake plenum to IPD and I am searching for a better priced alternative or a used IPD plenum for a 996 3.4 e-gas engine.
Does anyone have one for sale or has a better priced alternative?
Thanks!
I'll have a very slightly used (9000 miles) IPD Competition plenum and the GT3 mating TB for sale very soon. I'm thinking in 2-3 weeks. It should bolt right up.
Pedro's Garage Techno Plenum.
This does basically the same thing as IPD but isn't a solid metal piece so prices are more friendly.
http://pedrosgarage.com/Site_2/TechnoTorque.html
when I saw the preview of your post I thought it was joke. Nope, it really is about Pedro's. That's actually a brilliant idea. Would love to see a real world pre/post dyno from one.
No, it doesn't. It works on the long side of the plenum, not the short side.. On any NA engine, the short side is where its at. IPD knows that too.
If I could only elaborate....
I think that the real difference will be felt when using a Y pipe in combination with a bigger TB.
I'm actually finishing my supercharger 3.4 Boxster project. The supercharger runs a max of 4 PSI of boost and the engine develops 367 HP at the crank and 410 NM of torque.
Because of the placement of the supercharger (left upper drivers side of engine next to the AC compressor) I am actually rethinking the air intake to the engine (Air filer>MAF>Supercharger.
Right now the air filter is using engine compartment air which is not really ideal. That is why I am actually also planning to switch to a Y-plenum to get the most out of the engine.
???
It really is a moot point anyways as IPD are the ones that used to claim 25hp increase. With that said, I'm running an IPD but I never had the 25hp expectation going into it. Others, not so sure about...
In every application where I have evaluated anything except the IPD, I have LOST performance. In some cases torque (at a ridiculously low, unusable RPM) would be slightly boosted, but thats it.
The IPD works. I've ran them all on every one of my combinations of Street and Track Performer from 2.7- 4.1 liters, and the results hold true on all of them.
Greg at IPD truly develops components, which is something that has gained my respect. Thats an odd thing in this industry today, where you just make a bigger ad and sell more product.
I'm not denying IPD doesn't provide some power. I just don't believe in the +25hp claim they once made. Also Pedro's is made with the same concept as IPD so I don't really know what you're getting at other than trying to bash another vendor. I'll bet anyone here that if you tested those side by side, you'll see a very negligible difference between them power wise.
In terms of performance added or lost with other items, there are several dyno's by various people for individuals to formulate their own opinion.
No I did several mods at once.
was going to say....that pretty sweet if he's getting 25hp and 20 trq bolting this thing on. I don't think I even gained 25hp with a .4 bump in displacement! !!
Alp....it also says this.
"IPD has pioneered another new Plenum design with the Competition Carrera Plenum. Laminar flows and volumetric efficiencies have been further enhanced with our unique and innovative internal merge collector area. This completely new approach has yielded not only great performance gains but more linear power delivery and improved throttle response as well.
Gains vary depending on pre-existing mods and quality of after-market exhaust installed
. As we all "should" know, horsepower and torque become harder to find and typically more expensive as we climb the proverbial performance ladder. That being said, performance components yield different power gains depending on the order they were installed. IPD tests and evaluates all products on bone stock cars, this establishes a level playing field and a better "apples to apples" comparison.
The Competition Carrera Plenum however is designed to work with applications that are already moderately to heavily modified.
Power gains will vary with each Carrera, but the bottom line is, there will be noticeable and impressive gains that are sure to make any Porsche Carrera driving enthusiast smile.
Power improvements will be fully realized once the factory ECU/DME makes all the necessary "adaptation" requirements. This process can be expedited with a series of "hard pulls" or spirited full throttle acceleration runs through the gears. Of course this should only be performed on a closed course circuit."
I'm aware of the fine print. I was just saying that the way they advertise it is misleading to most consumers out there.
Only guys that's been in the game awhile will realize that results maybe different and if you look closely, those gains are in a very narrow rpm range on that car on that dyno on that day... you get my drift. I'm not refuting "their" results. I just think it's misleading to most consumers that come across this as evidenced by the many threads about "Does IPD provide xx amount of hp?".
Bottom Line: OP was just asking for alternative to IPD. I provided that info. Very simple but of course we can't do simple on RL.
No, it doesn't.
The short side radius of the IPD is where the trick is. You can't develop an intake component using a shop vac. If you do, you'll never see that what you are doing is hurting performance, or doing absolutely nothing!
With a pitot tube inserted in the intake where the splitter is installed in this photo will give zero, or very, very little velocity on the flow bench. Why? Because the air is pulled to the short side radius.
Yes, I have direct experience with this.
With a plenum only? nope.....plenum, TB, headers, 200 cell cats and maybe an X51 airbox.....yes. Air flow is huge component here. I still think the IPD Comp and GT3 TB give you a quicker throttle response and it's a good place to start for add ons.
Hum, my engine seems to work fine with the stock one? Should I be worried and just go ahead and change it? I really could use a few more ponies and better throttle response. I wonder if I could get the rpm's to spin up by .00025sec quicker if my engine would run better?
I think the 996 engine gives very little back for a lot of outlay where engine tuning is concerned, isnt it much better to just get it or keep it running well as stock, there's loads of other stuff you can do which gives more back, suspension upgrades tyres etc still make you quicker in a sense and your actually getting something worthwhile for your money, who would be quicker at the track, the guy running standard set up with an Extra 30 hp or the guy with standard engine but fully upgraded suspension tans tyres???
I concur. I've learned to keep the engine bone stock, and focus on keeping it alive, OR go insane with it, going to my big bore engines.
I have yet to experience a bolt on "Tuning" component for these engines that doesn't offer some caveat that cancels out the benefits that it added when coupled to an engine that has stock internals.
This is the reason why I won't tune ECUs for stock engines, or add any parts to them trying to make them faster.
You learn after a decade plus of development and experience.
I missed the publishing date to have it at this years Porsche Literature Meet in March. I might be able to make it for 2017.
The book doesn't cover things like this thread goes over. I decided to take 100% of the opinion out of it and make it nothing more than a step by step engine assembly guide. That way all the argumentative crap will be avoided.
The dyno graph missing some parameters which are important
l have installed an afe intake for a bmw and i really don't expect this after seeing the dyno result in afe's advertisement:
the car picks up higher rev faster under the same pedal force and when i release my foot, the car keep rolling for a longer time which are very cool for a safety speed driver like me
i hope the plenium will give the same benefit
Can I clarify one thing... My buddy and I both own 996's...
Which is more appropriate.... Stock Throttle body size IPD plenum OR GT3 TB and plenum? We both have intakes and exhaust and are just looking for the last bolt on mod.
But the TeknoSuk* moves the foam chips, man. THE CHIPS! They MOVED!
If you ain't using a ShopVac for your exactingly technical QA processes, you ain't ENGINEERING!
Don't swap out the throttle body. You will pay hundreds of dollars to for a lateral move - or more likely, lose a few HP.
*The TeknoSuk and the TeknoBlo are automotive upgrades, you sickos. They are not "adult novelties." Sheesh.
I have a plenum in my car that gives virtually the same performance as the IPD and is basically free. Well not exactly free, it came in the car from the factory and I did have to buy the car.
These plenums have been discussed ad nasuem here and on other blogs and when tested by impartial third parties the improvement seems to be nil.
I genuinely have a *theory* (apologies for using that word in a shrine of empiricism like the 996 Forum).
Theory goes that the IPD changes the way air passes through the plenum & IPD's contribution is to help create a *VORTEX* of air that improves the routing efficiency of incoming airflow. A *VORTEX* is much betterer than a choppy induction wave as it twists & allows the air to compress with less turbulence (lost energy).
The end result of this *VORTEX* is ____ for performance but adds a subtle improvement in the induction sound.
a *VORTEX* using an alternative medium for visual comprehension:
in space:
used in a Carrera:
What's funny is that Tony's comments aren't that far off (from the Pedro video...).
IPD has Tony licked as far as technical writing, though...
IPD's continual quest for improved performance has led to many innovative designs and developments over the years. Once these new ideas are tested and proven to deliver quantifiable performance gains they are then employed in the manufacturing process for future production components.
The fundamental purpose of a plenum is to deliver as much air as possible through a maze of ducts while requiring the least amount of work. IPD has tested numerous internal surfaces inside the Plenum, including polishing, extrude honing, epoxy coating, and shot peening just to name a few. We spend countless hours developing our product and we have finally been able to perfect a dimpling effect that shows gains over our previous attempts.
Fundamentally dimpling, akin to a golf ball, creates a thin turbulent boundary layer on the flow surface. The theory behind a golf ball is to keep the air stuck to the back of the ball as long as possible to reduce the wake - and increase pressure behind the ball - while traveling through the air to maximize distance. A similar principal applies in a Porsche plenum, where air travels through a tightly constructed intake to meet the extreme packaging constraints of our rear (and mid!) engine friends. By dimpling the interior surface, there are fewer localized pressure drops around compound curves, thereby increasing the flow. In this case, the theory matches the dyno and we are pleased to announce our latest iteration of the plenum.
You can plan on seeing more dimpled surfacing with both new an older IPD Plenums in the future.
EDIT: I read Tony's post, and promptly put my Chemical Engineering hat on...and then realized 5CHN3LL wrote everything I did, but I decided I'd gone too far...and posted this anyway.
From a fluid dynamics perspective, the idea of a properly designed plenum for the purpose of increasing air flow and mixing makes sense.
Directing flow in a smoother, laminar fashion can result in an increased flow rate. The IPD plenums obviously attempt to do this by the internal "V" shape, and by the use of dimples, similar to a golf ball - the dimples create a tiny layer of turbulent air at the surface, which allows laminar flow throughout more of the plenum, whereas the factory plenum has uncontrolled mixed turbulent/laminar flow throughout.
Hard to tell from the photos, but they could also attempt to provide a "swirl" or, yes, a Vortex, of air into the mixing chambers, for improved fuel mixing. I suppose this would improve the air/fuel mixture in older cars, but I can't imagine it would benefit the DFI cars. Any gainz to be had from a plenum on a DFI car would be a result of the dimpling.
Yes. But by that point, on non-DFI cars, the fuel mixture has already been made. So perhaps the mixture is more uniform, which could then result in better combustion.
Hypothetically.
But what is the flow pattern of the air at this point? Does the plenum change the flow characteristics at this point? If it changes the flow in such a way that the mixture is "better", then there is potential for improved performance / economy.
If. Obviously. One would need to model it or create a mock-up with sophisticated monitoring equipment to validate.
I'm not saying the IPD Plenum DOES or DOES NOT improve performance. All I am saying is that the theory behind what they claim to be doing is accurate. Without independently sourced and verified empirical data, we cannot validate their claims.
all this data should be shared with the guy over in the 997 forum........the one that wants to drill small holes in his air-box and install a K+N HOT air intake
Vortex you say? Stick one of those in each manifold and you will be seeing massive gains! I put one in each of the AMGs intake tubes and gains were HUUGE! See dyno sheet!
I think you are over thinking this. If it works better than only does because it delivers more air into the cylinders while the intake valves are open.
Am I tho? The improvement seen in DFI engines (not just Porsche) has been (at least partially) attributed to the more direct control the injectors have over the air/fuel mixture.
Just because something is not simple or a variable is seemingly insignificant, does not mean that it cannot have an effect. Power output is a function of all relevant variables - these variables are slowly and deliberately tweaked over time.
What I am not is an automotive engineer. What I AM is a Control System Engineer with a background in chemical engineering and process modeling. So, while I cannot say a plenum "works", I can say that a plenum has the potential to affect several air-intake related parameters that pertain to engine performance. The IPD Plenum Theory is sound. The evidence is inconclusive.
Or maybe I just want one. Gotta spend those Porsche-Bucks on something.
You are a chequebook enthusiast aren't ya and don't do much wrenching?
Can't compare the efficiency of a DFI to a MPFI. The two work completely different from each other. DFI is like a diesel. Heck DFI engines even sound like very quiet diesels.
When a conventional fuel injector sprays at high RPMS, the fuel pretty much pools at the base of the intake valve between combustion cycles. This is true regardless if it's batch fire injection or multi port injection. So, a lot of the mixing doesn't really happen until the vales opens. When this happens, there isn't much time or room left for even that really.
Now if it was a throttle body injection (least efficient EFI method) then, perhaps intake air vortex would make a difference in the mixture. But that's irrelevant to this discussion.
Theories are nice but only if they are based on some facts.
air flows into plenum. goes left or right. radius of turns is too small. air delaminates and compresses (requires work to do this = power loss). flow into intake runners restricted as a result - full volume of tube not utilised. an improved design increases the radius of the bend; flow is improved and less energy lost to compression and creation of turbulent flow.
... ever golfed? You know why golf ***** are dimpled...? That isn't a theory... sorry to break it to you, but fluid dynamics is based in facts.
And no, I do my own wrenching. Check my Wheelwell. The only work I didn't do was the clutch & IMS, as I don't have a lift.
Gold *****?? Every reply gets further and further away from the original topic. You claimed better mixture, I claim that's not so because the proximity of the injectors to the combustion chamber.
What's "check my Wheelwell?
P.S. You don't need a lift to do the intermediate shaft bearing.
Imo000 has had a non-operable, partially rebuilt 996 sitting around since 2015, so I'd take his inputs with a grain of salt. Possibly the highest $ outlay/mile ratio on the board.
You'll notice I didn't claim anything. I stated very little as fact, other than that which is the facts of fluid dynamics. I referenced both the dimpling and the shape of the IPD Plenum. The dinpling works on the same scrientific principle. Go look it up, if you're so smart. As for the mixing, the principle stands. If the plenum doesn't actually achieve that, it doesn't mean that air/fuel mixture doesn't affect performance.
As for wheelwell, first, it's in my sig. Secondly, in the 21st century, if you haven't learned how to Google something when you don't understand it, perhaps now is the time to learn. It's biting you in the bud.
And yoire roght. You don't need a lift. However, given the scope of work, lack of lift, lack of garage, timeline, impact of error, and substantial parts/labor ratio, I opted to have my Indy do it.
Relax! The 996 engine repair project will restart soon. Life got in the way (son started go kart racing and had to fix a couple of RL'ers cars and so on). Did you see my thread when I grafted a Paxton onto my 928? How's that for a grain of salt?
For the money and minimal power increase it's not worth it, buy some nice shocks and make your car quicker that way, the 996 is factory optimised almost off the production line!
Factory optimised? I mean, I love my 996, but "factory optimised?"
I'm not sure I even understand what that means. If a car was not "factory optimised," I assume that means it would (a) not run, or (b) be delivered in more than one shipment.
This term is at least as good as "military intelligence."
I will be adding "Womb Optimized" to my next run of business cards.
Me: I like the plenum. The guy with the most hours on the m96 in the country backs them based on his testing. It also adds airflow & improves the sound of the m96 without compromising on reliability. I like the plenum.
Peanut gallery: You're wrong because I have subjective convictions that vary from yours.
Me: okay..
performed in a skit:
You Tube
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