Would you buy a 997 gen 2 C4S with 120k miles on the clock? - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

...if it had been owned by an enthusiast and meticulously maintained, including the full 12 yr service and a comprehensive 'Centre Gravity' overhaul 3 years ago, when all of this was done: Full suspension re-fresh including the following; 2 x Front top mounts 2 x front track control arms 2 x Front Inner & Outer track rod ends 2 x Rear Bilstein B4 dampers 2 x Rear track control arms 2 x Rear tow arms 1 x Set Eibach Springs Pro-kit 997 4WD 1 x Set H&R Wheel spacers (7mm front, 15mm rear) 1 x Set New Michelin PS4S tyres 235/35 R19 front, 305/30 R19 rear 1 x Ride height check, Geometry set-up, test drive & handover. Plus it has a DSC controller fitted (by 9E). It's a 2010 PDK. Black. 4 owners.

All depends on the price. What’s the service history like? And the number of owners? If you’re looking to keep for several years and you do low miles then go for it. Otherwise you’ll take a bath come resale time. This is coming from someone who has sold some high mileage M Cars in the past…

The price is quite reasonable (taking account of the mileage): £33k. Including an upgraded sport design steering wheel. Full Porsche and Specialist service history. Similar 'normal' miles cars are £40k at the mo. The car also had paint correction done a couple of years ago, plus ceramic coating treatment. Its black, with black leather. 997_Sussex said: All depends on the price. What’s the service history like? And the number of owners? If you’re looking to keep for several years and you do low miles then go for it. Otherwise you’ll take a bath come resale time. This is coming from someone who has sold some high mileage M Cars in the past…

Hard to value precisely, but personally I'd want it for substantially less than £33k. The market for a car like that with 120,000 miles is very, very small. Hardly anyone wants one with that kind of mileage, even now. You could try calling a few well known traders and "offering" them a .2 C4S with that mileage and seeing what they'd roughly pay for it. Very low 20s would be my guess, and if so mid 20s private sale would be about right.

Thanks. WBAC are offering £26k, so £30k for a well-looked after car seems reasonable? Especially given all that valuable suspension work that was done fairly recently. f6box said: Hard to value precisely, but personally I'd want it for substantially less than £33k. The market for a car like that with 120,000 miles is very, very small. Hardly anyone wants one with that kind of mileage, even now. You could try calling a few well known traders and "offering" them a .2 C4S with that mileage and seeing what they'd roughly pay for it. Very low 20s would be my guess, and if so mid 20s private sale would be about right.

At that mileage I'd be having a good look at regular servicing & seeing if you can gleen any info on the sorts of journeys it's been doing. If it's pounding up and down the motorway everyday then you'd hope mechanical wear and stressed to be low. But £33k does feel steep for a car of that age and mileage

wax lyrical said: Thanks. WBAC are offering £26k, so £30k for a well-looked after car seems reasonable? Especially given all that valuable suspension work that was done fairly recently. WBAC quote will translate into lower actual payment. Call it £24k, in reality. Would still be interested to know what a specialist would bid on it. Personally, I think anything starting with a '3' is quite a bit too high with that mileage. Also, note that the suspension work is basically half the job done, so the other half of the components are on 120k, and it was three years ago (and how many miles ago?), so again (personally) I wouldn't increase the valuation much if at all on that basis. Totally buyable, but if you have any thought to resale, it needs to be at the right price to avoid taking a quick bath and / or finding it won't shift at a price that keeps the depreciation hit reasonable. Seller may or may not be at all reaslistic about any of this. They usually aren't.

Thanks for all the input and advice so far - much appreciated! It's a tricky one. 997 gen 2 prices are very strong and Specialist dealers with similar cars (albeit at half the mileage) are asking £45k. The suspension work was done only 6k miles ago. Most of the mileage seems to have been done in the car's first 5 years when it was PMD serviced. Current owner has serviced the car every year at a local Porsche Specialist (Zeffenhaus).

wax lyrical said: The price is quite reasonable (taking account of the mileage): £33k. Sounds very ambitious to me rather than reasonable! It could be a great car but you'd take a big bath if you bought it for £33k and had to sell it tomorrow. I wouldn't pay much attention to the ones listed at £45k, that's 991.1 money.

Shaoxter said: Sounds very ambitious to me rather than reasonable! It could be a great car but you'd take a big bath if you bought it for £33k and had to sell it tomorrow. I wouldn't pay much attention to the ones listed at £45k, that's 991.1 money. Agreed - my man math brought me very close to buying a very similar car and I thought what I'd do when it has 150k miles and I'm bored of it.

wax lyrical said: It's a tricky one. 997 gen 2 prices are very strong and Specialist dealers with similar cars (albeit at half the mileage) are asking £45k. RSJ in Slough have a gen 2 997 with 72k miles for £36k. It's a manual though & price difference between the PDK & manual is usually £2k. So assume is £38k if it was a PDK. RSJ paint correct all their cars & offer a 12 month in-house warranty. Is the other seller private or trade? Gut feel is this is still too expensive

SV_WDC said: wax lyrical said: It's a tricky one. 997 gen 2 prices are very strong and Specialist dealers with similar cars (albeit at half the mileage) are asking £45k. RSJ in Slough have a gen 2 997 with 72k miles for £36k. It's a manual though & price difference between the PDK & manual is usually £2k. So assume is £38k if it was a PDK. RSJ paint correct all their cars & offer a 12 month in-house warranty. Is the other seller private or trade? Gut feel is this is still too expensive PDK cars are usually cheaper than manuals (not more expensive).

Yeah manual 997.2's command more money then the PDK. Do you want the AWD? I would rather buy one with 20-30k miles less RWD for £28k or so. You could buy one with 90k on it for £27-28k and stick £3k or suspension parts on and leave yourself a buffer and give yourself a few years of free miles compared to the 120k car.

Thanks guys. A lot to think about. I want a PDK for sure, don’t need 4wd, but it has to be meticulously maintained (unless still under a Porsche warranty). Don’t want to pay more than £40k, even for low mileage - so that limits the cars available. I really don’t like 991’s. They’ve lost some of the 911 dna and character. A lot of specialist dealers have (2010 and 2011) 997’s that haven’t had the big 12yr service done and they say that it will be ‘done before sale’. I’d rather the previous owner had serviced it properly, on time.

On the face of it that’s a potentially good buy. The geo and suspension mods don’t add value in my opinion unless one is in the know and then lowered suspension, spacers and an expensive geo is not for all tastes. The mileage is an issue and will be if/when you come to sell it in the future. Ideally you’d want it for a price starting with a 2

wax lyrical said: Thanks guys. A lot to think about. I want a PDK for sure, don’t need 4wd, but it has to be meticulously maintained (unless still under a Porsche warranty). Don’t want to pay more than £40k, even for low mileage - so that limits the cars available. I really don’t like 991’s. They’ve lost some of the 911 dna and character. A lot of specialist dealers have (2010 and 2011) 997’s that haven’t had the big 12yr service done and they say that it will be ‘done before sale’. I’d rather the previous owner had serviced it properly, on time. I normally say you have far more to worry about on a 15 year old Porsche than whether the 12 year service has been done. Has he done all the weak points on these cars as they get to this age? Things like coolant hoses etc.? However, the soot build up in the oil on DFI engines is becoming a bit of a problem for these cars, more so as more of them hit higher miles. Also, in the states they are starting to see quite a few issues with the direct injected cars as they hit 100-120k miles. Timing chain stretch etc. I know some of the specialists over there, unlike the ones here, like Jake Raby, are now saying they would not own a 911 past 997.1 as they get passed the 100k mile mark, too many issues cropping up, much harder to work on etc. I take what they say in the States with a pinch of salt, but worth considering. Quick search... https://rennlist.com/forums/997-forum/676497-997-2...

SV_WDC said: RSJ in Slough have a gen 2 997 with 72k miles for £36k. It's a manual though & price difference between the PDK & manual is usually £2k. So assume is £38k if it was a PDK. RSJ paint correct all their cars & offer a 12 month in-house warranty. Is the other seller private or trade? Gut feel is this is still too expensive Is that one ^^^ a C4S? The wide body cars seem to have a premium. ETA or maybe I'm thinking of C4S Targas, which seem to be some of the most expensive 997.2 cars. (basic manual 3.6 C2 coupe would be my 997.2 sweet spot) Edited by braddo on Friday 23 August 11:38

I'm the OP. My alternative at the moment is a 997 c2S PDK, with 73k miles. 2008 though (as opposed to 2010 for the c4S). Full Porsche and Specialist service history, 2 owner. £34k. The high mileage c4S owner will accept £29k for his. Advice?

Are you certain the alternative car is PDK? It can't be if it is a 2008 car. Either the year or the gearbox are wrong How many miles do you think you'll do per year? If low mileage, I'd say the C4S is mightily tempting (but I'm not a serial car buyer!)

wax lyrical said: I'm the OP. My alternative at the moment is a 997 c2S PDK, with 73k miles. 2008 though (as opposed to 2010 for the c4S). Full Porsche and Specialist service history, 2 owner. £34k. The high mileage c4S owner will accept £29k for his. Advice? 50k mile difference is a lot on these, unless you are going to do 15k miles a year in it. Most end up doing 5k or so, that is 10 years of extra miles. If it is a .2 and pdk, that would be my choice if, and that is important, everything else checks out. You need to look at the history, or if there is not a folder detailing everything that has been done get a very good indy inspection. You can easily spend £5k or or more just getting it right.

braddo said: Are you certain the alternative car is PDK? It can't be if it is a 2008 car. Either the year or the gearbox are wrong I had one of the very early 997.2s, was on a 58 plate and registered in late 2008.

Thanks guys. A lot to think about. I want a PDK for sure, don’t need 4wd, but it has to be meticulously maintained (unless still under a Porsche warranty). Don’t want to pay more than £40k, even for low mileage - so that limits the cars available. I really don’t like 991’s. They’ve lost some of the 911 dna and character. A lot of specialist dealers have (2010 and 2011) 997’s that haven’t had the big 12yr service done and they say that it will be ‘done before sale’. I’d rather the previous owner had serviced it properly, on time.

Thanks guys. A lot to think about. I want a PDK for sure, don’t need 4wd, but it has to be meticulously maintained (unless still under a Porsche warranty). Don’t want to pay more than £40k, even for low mileage - so that limits the cars available. I really don’t like 991’s. They’ve lost some of the 911 dna and character. A lot of specialist dealers have (2010 and 2011) 997’s that haven’t had the big 12yr service done and they say that it will be ‘done before sale’. I’d rather the previous owner had serviced it properly, on time.

Just seen the car, to be fair it looks nice. And at £29k it seems better value. How many miles a year will you do?

According to the ad, from new it did 21,500 miles before its first service. And then another 23,500 miles before its second service. Ouch. Personally, think the factory service intervals of 20k are too long for a high revving NA engine as it is, let alone going over them. Would want to see evidence of interim oil changes otherwise, well... If the oil changes are as per the listing, wouldn't be what qualifies as "meticulously maintained" in my book, anyway.

I’d be doing about 8k miles per year in the 997. Mix of commuting twice a week and weekend fun. Audi Q5 for regular duties.

I do think you will be looking at writing that money off after 3 or 4 years. Another one on 911uk.com, about 5 adverts down from his, sold for around £32k with 70k miles on it. In 3 years time that would still be under 100k miles and wouldn't lose much, where as what will one with 150k on it be worth. There is nothing wrong with losing money driving a car, but, if someone buying a 15 year old 997.2 at the cheaper end of the market, tells me that they would rather not lose loads of money in depreciation and spend loads of money keeping it going? It may be better to pay £2-3k more and get one with 50k less miles on it? Those long oil change services are the killer on these engines, as I said above. It looks lovely, really lovely, but for me, it is a bit too close in price to some of the 70-80k mile cars, and many of them have been sat around for quite a while too, so deals to be done.

Thanks for your input (and to everyone else commenting on this thread). I agree - the sensible option would be to pay a a few thousand more and get a car with 60k/70k on the clock, even if it's a C2S as opposed to a c4S - quite a few around, with excellent service history and great spec. Ed.Neumann said: I do think you will be looking at writing that money off after 3 or 4 years. Another one on 911uk.com, about 5 adverts down from his, sold for around £32k with 70k miles on it. In 3 years time that would still be under 100k miles and wouldn't lose much, where as what will one with 150k on it be worth. There is nothing wrong with losing money driving a car, but, if someone buying a 15 year old 997.2 at the cheaper end of the market, tells me that they would rather not lose loads of money in depreciation and spend loads of money keeping it going? It may be better to pay £2-3k more and get one with 50k less miles on it? Those long oil change services are the killer on these engines, as I said above. It looks lovely, really lovely, but for me, it is a bit too close in price to some of the 70-80k mile cars, and many of them have been sat around for quite a while too, so deals to be done.

If the seller has knocked £5k off the price why not see how far he’d go? £27k? At £27k I think you’ll be building in a buffer zone for when and if you come to sell in the future. Maintain the car fastidiously during your ownership and you might not even lose. Personally I’d take that on - these cars will do the mileage no problem and you won’t have IMS & Borescore to worry about.

Thanks guys. A lot to think about. I want a PDK for sure, don’t need 4wd, but it has to be meticulously maintained (unless still under a Porsche warranty). Don’t want to pay more than £40k, even for low mileage - so that limits the cars available. I really don’t like 991’s. They’ve lost some of the 911 dna and character. A lot of specialist dealers have (2010 and 2011) 997’s that haven’t had the big 12yr service done and they say that it will be ‘done before sale’. I’d rather the previous owner had serviced it properly, on time.

f6box said: According to the ad, from new it did 21,500 miles before its first service. And then another 23,500 miles before its second service. Ouch. If the manufacturer has stipulated 2yr/20k service for normal (non track) use then why waste money having additional oil changes? Given the early mileage it’s likely been a daily driver and likely to have done those ‘extra’ miles waiting for a service slot. Some Porsche centres have been known to be booked up weeks in advance. Get your point about going over but this was many years/miles ago and what’s more important is the condition it’s in now relative to price.

Armitage.Shanks said: If the manufacturer has stipulated 2yr/20k service for normal (non track) use then why waste money having additional oil changes? Given the early mileage it’s likely been a daily driver and likely to have done those ‘extra’ miles waiting for a service slot. Some Porsche centres have been known to be booked up weeks in advance. Get your point about going over but this was many years/miles ago and what’s more important is the condition it’s in now relative to price. That's fairly straight forward to answer. Numerous factors influence the setting of service intervals beyond the sole concern of long term mechanical reliability, including perceived sustainability (Porsche specifically calls out long service intervals and reduced disposal of waste oil in its marketing materials), and ease and reduced cost of servicing ownership (again, called out on marketing materials). Should also be pointed out that 20k is a maximum, not a target. And if you think Porsche wouldn't ever do anything that might even slightly compromise the reliability of its engines 100,000 and 10 years after they've been sold, can only assume you haven't spotted that it took them 12 years to re-engineer its flat six after the M96 came out, despite the company's financials being very strong by the early 2000s. Totally agree, incidentally, condition today is what counts. And given it's not practical open the engine up, one of the best data points you have re the condition of the engine today is the service interval. I doubt you'll find anyone well versed in the engineering of combustion engines who thinks two oil changes in 45,000 miles is a good idea. Finally, it's absolute buttons in the broad scheme to add an interim oil change, about the same as a couple of tanks of fuel. If there's any doubt whatsoever about the advisability of 20k intervals, the cost of mitigating them is so very low.

Shaoxter said: I had one of the very early 997.2s, was on a 58 plate and registered in late 2008. I stand corrected! There are usually a few 997.1 cars in the list when searching the classifieds for 2009 911s so i thought 2008 was no chance for a 997.2.

Update and conclusion to this. I'm the OP and I bought the car. £28,750 including a DSC controller and Porsche sport design steering wheel. A PPI by 'Porsche Torque' in Uxbridge did not uncover any significant issues at all that they said it's a great car. A couple of mionot wear and tear items that they said can be addressed next year. It was serviced by Zeffenhaus in May and had a new battery installed then. 2010 Gen 2 997 C4S PDK. Not a lot of options apart from Sport chrono plus, heated seats and extended leather - and PASM and PCM 3 as standard. Drives beautifully due to the Centre Gravity suspension work/ geo setup and the ceramic coating has kept the Basalt black paint in excellent condition. I even love the grey wheels.

[Image-only or quote-only post; no author-written text.] https://forums-images.pistonheads.com/32172/202409235120398?resize=720 https://forums-images.pistonheads.com/32172/202409235125695?resize=720 https://forums-images.pistonheads.com/32172/202409235127316?resize=720[/img]</a> <a href="https://forums-images.pistonheads.com/32172/202409235128757" Target="_blank" >[img]https://forums-images.pistonheads.com/32172/202409235128757?resize=720

Looks great. Well done

Now enjoy it.

Well done! Good to hear that the PPI didn't uncover any significant issues. Time to go and enjoy it!

Thanks Guys. I'm definitely enjoying it. The 997 is being used three times a week - commuting and pleasure. It's great to be back in a 911 after so many years away. Also, because it's NOT a low-mileage (expensive) example, I'm not worried about driving the car as intended.

Great looking car and i hope you enjoy keeping the car clean!! many joyful miles ahead for you

What a super purchase. Condition is everything and that C4S looks outstanding. I also think just as importantly with older Porsche you've found an amazing indy in Porsche Torque. I use them for servicing and they have always been excellent.

wax lyrical said: Thanks Guys. I'm definitely enjoying it. The 997 is being used three times a week - commuting and pleasure. It's great to be back in a 911 after so many years away. Also, because it's NOT a low-mileage (expensive) example, I'm not worried about driving the car as intended. I just saw the start of this thread and was going to say almost exactly this. I bought a 993 C2 manual 7 years ago, with a very high mileage, as yours, with lots of history and well looked after. To me, it's been great fun to drive and own, to tinker with a little and not been too horrific on maintenance costs, but above all I've had absolutely no thoughts at all about adding miles to it at all. If you buy a garage queen with low miles, then it'll be in the back of your mind every year when you've added another 5-10k on it - how long can you keep doing that on a low mileage example? Not long, so you'll probably only drive it 2-3k per year and miss out on all the fun!!! Good luck and enjoy!

Ocho said: wax lyrical said: Thanks Guys. I'm definitely enjoying it. The 997 is being used three times a week - commuting and pleasure. It's great to be back in a 911 after so many years away. Also, because it's NOT a low-mileage (expensive) example, I'm not worried about driving the car as intended. I just saw the start of this thread and was going to say almost exactly this. I bought a 993 C2 manual 7 years ago, with a very high mileage, as yours, with lots of history and well looked after. To me, it's been great fun to drive and own, to tinker with a little and not been too horrific on maintenance costs, but above all I've had absolutely no thoughts at all about adding miles to it at all. If you buy a garage queen with low miles, then it'll be in the back of your mind every year when you've added another 5-10k on it - how long can you keep doing that on a low mileage example? Not long, so you'll probably only drive it 2-3k per year and miss out on all the fun!!! Good luck and enjoy! You make an excellent point. I bought my first 911 (991.1) last year with 9K on the clock. It had 1 owner who had the car for 11 years doing about 800 miles a year. I have put on 4K in the first year of ownership and I am of the same school of thought - it has to be driven. The funny thing about these cars is they are as fast as one can practically drive them. Getting newer cars with more power is ultimately a waste of time because you simply cannot use the power. Therefore I would argue that a lower powered 997/991.1 is just about right. You can drive it enjoy it and not worry about the miles.