996 Turbo X50 Tuning advice - Page 5 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Can any one tell me what you should update to get more and better bhp from my 996TT X50. Have had the ECU remapped and sports exhaust fitted to stage1 (around 510 bhp, but am wondering if I have missed anything. After looking around I see some people fit new DV's, IC's etc. Any help and advice most welcome

Moosh said: Can any one tell me what you should update to get more and better bhp from my 996TT X50. Have had the ECU remapped and sports exhaust fitted to stage1 (around 510 bhp, but am wondering if I have missed anything. After looking around I see some people fit new DV's, IC's etc. Any help and advice most welcome Moosh have you had your car dyno'd since you had it mapped.... .what exhaust are you running ? Depends how much hp you are chasing.... fact is that you've had the easy wins so you need to really start digging deep into the wallet if you want material increases.... doing the dv's and hoses will help reliability but not do anything for power. Next stage is gonna be putting bigger turbo's in, and various ancillaries to supply the nec quants of fuel... such as bigger injectors. Have you got 6pots on your car ? I'd go no further with tuning until thats done... how about your suspension and clutch, if you are stock on either of these, then you are almost definitely gonna need to upgrade them both to make the most out of further power increases. Once you are past the easy gains, you really do need to look at other aspects of the car, so ask yourself just how far do you wanna take it, and make any upgrades compatable with your end goals.

Moosh said: Can any one tell me what you should update to get more and better bhp from my 996TT X50. Have had the ECU remapped and sports exhaust fitted to stage1 (around 510 bhp, but am wondering if I have missed anything. After looking around I see some people fit new DV's, IC's etc. Any help and advice most welcome Oh and if you have an X50 then you prob don't need to upgrade the i'cs until you are into the 600hp+ range... and even then, only if you plan on beating on the car until it heatsoaks... I believe ruf use the GT2 i/cs on its nardo pack (albeit they also use stock dv's and hoses, which i've always found strange !!)

I have Europipes fitted stage1 and yes have 6 pots on the front wheels. Looking to reach around 580/590 bhp

Moosh said: I have Europipes fitted stage1 and yes have 6 pots on the front wheels. Looking to reach around 580/590 bhp With that power you can do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKxHyfKG3AY

ZeroH said: I believe ruf use the GT2 i/cs on its nardo pack (albeit they also use stock dv's and hoses, which i've always found strange !!) Ruf uses GT2 I/Cs maybe because they have actually properly tested the cheap (mainly US made) aftermarket intercoolers and deemed that in actual road use the stock ones are better ? RS Tuning also use stock DVs and hoses - maybe that these "must have" items are actually not necessary apart from adding a little bit of extra margin for the "tuner" ?

Moosh said: I have Europipes fitted stage1 and yes have 6 pots on the front wheels. Looking to reach around 580/590 bhp Cool - so you have a nice platform to play with ! If you want a professional view on what you need to do to get there, Suggest speaking to Matt at Fearnsport - he knows the turbo inside out and back to front. Definitely upgrade your dv's and probably should do your hoses (if you want the best then go Samco, full stop), bigger turbos/hybrids and fuelling upgrades.... you may be advised, depending who you talk to, to upgrade headers, I'm not so sure, have heard varying things about their 'worthwhile-ness'... Other things that come to my head are that above certain flow levels you may need to upgrade the MAF, and also possibly the spark plugs - Matt will be able to advise. I would also say that unless you're running an upgraded clutch (many people run the Sachs sporting) then budget for a new one !!

I have the GT2 I/Cs due to the X50 pack. Just wondering if I can get more safe bhp without damaging the engine. Mine is around 510 bhp but I hear of claims up to around 550/560 bhp but still stage1. Would 590 bhp be classed as a stage2 upgrade or do you think 590 bhp is achievable with just stage1 components.

thanks ZeroH, I think Matt is on his holidays for a week, but I will certainly speak with him on his return.

You should be able to get close to 600hp with K24s and stock fuelling with proper mapping, I'm running 480.7 @ wheels using K24 compressors and stock injectors albeit with a 5Bar fpr.

EvoSlayer said: You should be able to get close to 600hp with K24s and stock fuelling with proper mapping, I'm running 480.7 @ wheels using K24 compressors and stock injectors albeit with a 5Bar fpr. who done your upgrade for you

TB993tt said: ZeroH said: I believe ruf use the GT2 i/cs on its nardo pack (albeit they also use stock dv's and hoses, which i've always found strange !!) Ruf uses GT2 I/Cs maybe because they have actually properly tested the cheap (mainly US made) aftermarket intercoolers and deemed that in actual road use the stock ones are better ? RS Tuning also use stock DVs and hoses - maybe that these "must have" items are actually not necessary apart from adding a little bit of extra margin for the "tuner" ? Toby, I'm happy for Mr Ruf to come here and say that he has empirical evidence post testing the US i'c competition - but honestly I would doubt that Ruf have purchased a bunch of US i'/c's from the likes of EvoMS, AWE, or Switzer, and have tested them scientifically against the GT2 i/c's. By contrast, the US tuners most definitely have done this with their products against the stock GT2 ones, to show graphically their improved ability to maintain intake temps lower than the GT2 ics over a period of hard running without impeded flow charactieristics. You can't be serious to think that the GT2 ic's can't be improved... there has to be some product filling the gap between teh GT2's and the Seacan monsters that I know you run !! Re the hoses and dv's... many many many documented cases of these failing stock. By contrast, how many times have you ever seen someone complain that their Samco F-pipe has split ?

EvoSlayer said: You should be able to get close to 600hp with K24s and stock fuelling with proper mapping, I'm running 480.7 @ wheels using K24 compressors and stock injectors albeit with a 5Bar fpr. Will the k24's really flow so much hp?... not impossible perhaps but you'll certainly need very aggressive mapping to do it. I know that in the US, some tuners claim 600hp kits using the stock K24's and correct mapping with various bolt-ons, but I'm somewhat sceptical... Out of interest have you measured your APR's Andy?

Moosh said: EvoSlayer said: You should be able to get close to 600hp with K24s and stock fuelling with proper mapping, I'm running 480.7 @ wheels using K24 compressors and stock injectors albeit with a 5Bar fpr. who done your upgrade for you Ha, I've nailed all the bits on myself (barring clutch) as there are very few people I trust to get their grubby little hands on my car and the mapping has been done by FVD. All good fun and frighteningly quick...

EvoSlayer said: You should be able to get close to 600hp with K24s and stock fuelling with proper mapping, I'm running 480.7 @ wheels using K24 compressors and stock injectors albeit with a 5Bar fpr. Its late notice mate but on Sat there is a dyno day at Evolve thru 911uk.com.... if you are able to make it there may be a place or two left - be good to see what your car does on a chassis dyno... its in Luton ! The more tuned turbos there the better !

ZeroH said: EvoSlayer said: You should be able to get close to 600hp with K24s and stock fuelling with proper mapping, I'm running 480.7 @ wheels using K24 compressors and stock injectors albeit with a 5Bar fpr. Will the k24's really flow so much hp?... not impossible perhaps but you'll certainly need very aggressive mapping to do it. I know that in the US, some tuners claim 600hp kits using the stock K24's and correct mapping with various bolt-ons, but I'm somewhat sceptical... Out of interest have you measured your APR's Andy? What are APR's Btw, I thought I'd shown you the RR printouts? Edited by EvoSlayer on Monday 21st September 15:50

EvoSlayer said: ZeroH said: EvoSlayer said: You should be able to get close to 600hp with K24s and stock fuelling with proper mapping, I'm running 480.7 @ wheels using K24 compressors and stock injectors albeit with a 5Bar fpr. Will the k24's really flow so much hp?... not impossible perhaps but you'll certainly need very aggressive mapping to do it. I know that in the US, some tuners claim 600hp kits using the stock K24's and correct mapping with various bolt-ons, but I'm somewhat sceptical... Out of interest have you measured your APR's Andy? What are APR's Btw, I thought I'd shown you the RR printouts? Edited by EvoSlayer on Monday 21st September 15:50 Sorry, I meant AFR's... typo ! Air Fuel Ratios. I recall focusing on your boost levels... 1.2 bar to red line was nice... but can't recall if you had AFR's measured ?

ZeroH said: EvoSlayer said: ZeroH said: EvoSlayer said: You should be able to get close to 600hp with K24s and stock fuelling with proper mapping, I'm running 480.7 @ wheels using K24 compressors and stock injectors albeit with a 5Bar fpr. Will the k24's really flow so much hp?... not impossible perhaps but you'll certainly need very aggressive mapping to do it. I know that in the US, some tuners claim 600hp kits using the stock K24's and correct mapping with various bolt-ons, but I'm somewhat sceptical... Out of interest have you measured your APR's Andy? What are APR's Btw, I thought I'd shown you the RR printouts? Edited by EvoSlayer on Monday 21st September 15:50 Sorry, I meant AFR's... typo ! Air Fuel Ratios. I recall focusing on your boost levels... 1.2 bar to red line was nice... but can't recall if you had AFR's measured ? lol... APR's... can you tell I work in a bank !!

ZeroH said: Toby, I'm happy for Mr Ruf to come here and say that he has empirical evidence post testing the US i'c competition - but honestly I would doubt that Ruf have purchased a bunch of US i'/c's from the likes of EvoMS, AWE, or Switzer, and have tested them scientifically against the GT2 i/c's. I don't know if Ruf has done that sort of testing but I know another tuner has, why would they want to use £10K intercoolers when £2K ones will do the job ? ZeroH said: By contrast, the US tuners most definitely have done this with their products against the stock GT2 ones, to show graphically their improved ability to maintain intake temps lower than the GT2 ics over a period of hard running without impeded flow charactieristics. Have they really ? You think so ? please show me what testing they have done (and please don't link me to the AWE site with graphs taken from measuring the IAT during a chassis dyno run with little blowers blowing a linear fixed~40mph airflow throught the cores) ZeroH said: You can't be serious to think that the GT2 ic's can't be improved... there has to be some product filling the gap between teh GT2's and the Seacan monsters that I know you run !! I run Secans on the 993tt, there is now a cheaper alternative, I have had them made by a company which supplies F1 teams but they still cost £7500 for a pair: ZeroH said: Re the hoses and dv's... many many many documented cases of these failing stock. By contrast, how many times have you ever seen someone complain that their Samco F-pipe has split ?!! documented by who ? the people selling the aftermarket stuff ? old boost hoses will split regardless who makes them

Here is some "empirical" testing for you, on the road with real airflow stock versus the £7500 ones standard 997GT2 same ambient temp

Toby, this is the internet, stop ruining it with proven tests and facts

Re the hoses and dv's... many many many documented cases of these failing stock. By contrast, how many times have you ever seen someone complain that their Samco F-pipe has split ?!! [/quote] documented by who ? the people selling the aftermarket stuff ? old boost hoses will split regardless who makes them [/quote] [/quote] Not sure I follow your point Re the hoses ? Stock F-pipe's splitting are documented by the owners who have suffered this. The whole point of upgrading hoses is that by moving from rubber (which will eventually degrade and split regardless of make as you say) to Silicone (which is more durable and has less flex) then you de-facto increase reliability -Please let me know what you find so objectionable about that. Re the intercoolers - at the most basic level, are you saying that if I go to a 650hp+ conversion on my X50 (3.8build, full internals, 24/26's or GT28's etc), and then go for a sustained run in the desert, I will suffer no more heat soak or eventual reduction in performance, sticking to the stock GT2 i/c's than if I bought for instance these (??)... http://www.vag-tuner.com/porsche/acatalog/Regal_Po... As you know I respect your knowledge Toby, but not sure I follow you on this point ! Edited by ZeroH on Monday 21st September 16:15

Ultra Violent said: Toby, this is the internet, stop ruining it with proven tests and facts I am the prick who paid for the Secans once and refused to again therebye transforming into THE saddest intercooler anorak geek in cyberspace

Toby, you appear very technical, what's your background

Toby, reading that last excerpt has actually given me a headache !! lol ! Going back to the AWE i/c chassis dyno test - why is it not reasonable to assume that if their i/c's perform better (i.e. offer lower IATs) than GT2 i/cs at the lower simulated wind speeds of the rolling road, that they wouldnt also perform better at higher speeds on the road ?

ZeroH said: Re the intercoolers - at the most basic level, are you saying that if I go to a 650hp+ conversion on my X50 (3.8build, full internals, 24/26's or GT28's etc), and then go for a sustained run in the desert, I will suffer no more heat soak or eventual reduction in performance, sticking to the stock GT2 i/c's than if I bought for instance these (??)... http://www.vag-tuner.com/porsche/acatalog/Regal_Po... To be fair, I have no idea.... the bar and plate design should be better than the Porsche tube and fin but honestly everyone always says their intercoolers are the best and they usually are not much better or worse than stock. The latest classic was a guy who had some 997tt ones made, he sent me the tech stuff below from the people who were making them (they also ran them in a Euro race turbo car) have a read what it says and tell me: They know what they are doing right ? buying these is a no brainer isn't it ? Edited by TB993tt on Monday 21st September 17:06

ZeroH said: Toby, reading that last excerpt has actually given me a headache !! lol ! Going back to the AWE i/c chassis dyno test - why is it not reasonable to assume that if their i/c's perform better (i.e. offer lower IATs) than GT2 i/cs at the lower simulated wind speeds of the rolling road, that they wouldnt also perform better at higher speeds on the road ? I don't know but they haven't tested them have they - its all theory just like the tech stuff above (which I have now deleted since I don't think I should have posted it ) As airflow increases through the cores different things happen - the ONLY way to test is on the road watching and logging IATs up to full speed, tracking etc.... Back to the tech stuff I posted - those intercoolers were 4K Euro and my pal had a set made and they were tested by a reputable tuner on his 660PS 997tt and the reputable tuner concluded that they were worse than stock DESPITE all the techno babble he is back to stock currently....

TB993tt said: ZeroH said: Toby, reading that last excerpt has actually given me a headache !! lol ! Going back to the AWE i/c chassis dyno test - why is it not reasonable to assume that if their i/c's perform better (i.e. offer lower IATs) than GT2 i/cs at the lower simulated wind speeds of the rolling road, that they wouldnt also perform better at higher speeds on the road ? I don't know but they haven't tested them have they - its all theory just like the tech stuff above (which I have now deleted since I don't think I should have posted it ) As airflow increases through the cores different things happen - the ONLY way to test is on the road watching and logging IATs up to full speed, tracking etc.... Back to the tech stuff I posted - those intercoolers were 4K Euro and my pal had a set made and they were tested by a reputable tuner on his 660PS 997tt and the reputable tuner concluded that they were worse than stock DESPITE all the techno babble he is back to stock currently.... Agree theres no substitute for on-road testing... indeed you seem to be a testbed for the intercooler tuning industry at present... skimmed thru the big thread on your GT2 i/cs on rennlist !! It surely wouldnt be so hard for any of the tuners, EvoMS or AWE to do exactly what you've done to test on the road. I may actually email them direct to see if they have run such on-road tests or not... albeit they may struggle to test legally given the speeds needed !! Seperately, stock, what time did you get for your GT2 100-200kmh... interested in comparing to my own data-logging for reference.

Interesting, I have a tuner who wants to put larger/better IC's in my 996T x50 as well as new piping to the IC's all the way from the front so I can get up to 590 bhp. The reason for this is that with the current stage one set up, when I am on track I sometimes get power loss when hard accelerating in third out of a corner. The problem goes away when I add octane boost. After speaking to a few tuners some have told me that the GT2 IC's should be fine and the power loss will be due to some other factor. I have also been informed by other tuners that I should be able to reach higher gains in bhp than the 510 without putting the engine at risk. Of course this interests me as I would save a s**t load of money if I can get up to say 560's with my current set up, although 590/600 bhp does interest me greatly.

Moosh said: Interesting, I have a tuner who wants to put larger/better IC's in my 996T x50 as well as new piping to the IC's all the way from the front so I can get up to 590 bhp. The reason for this is that with the current stage one set up, when I am on track I sometimes get power loss when hard accelerating in third out of a corner. The problem goes away when I add octane boost. After speaking to a few tuners some have told me that the GT2 IC's should be fine and the power loss will be due to some other factor. I have also been informed by other tuners that I should be able to reach higher gains in bhp than the 510 without putting the engine at risk. Of course this interests me as I would save a s**t load of money if I can get up to say 560's with my current set up, although 590/600 bhp does interest me greatly. I would definitely agree that losing power coming out of corners is not a feature of needing bigger i/c's... have you had the cars codes read, is the maf ok ? Depends on who you speak to, but if you talk to anyone US based, you'll hear that the engine is good for 700hp without internals (look at the Martini 997tt as example... whether its times are worthy of a 700hp car is another topic !), at the same time, ruf go to internals after their 540hp conversion kit... My own view, and what I would be happy with on my own car, is that anything lower than 600hp without internal work is fine, beyond that, I'd really want to be sure that I had rods and liners and studs etc, that were up to spec for the job.

ZeroH said: EvoSlayer said: ZeroH said: EvoSlayer said: You should be able to get close to 600hp with K24s and stock fuelling with proper mapping, I'm running 480.7 @ wheels using K24 compressors and stock injectors albeit with a 5Bar fpr. Will the k24's really flow so much hp?... not impossible perhaps but you'll certainly need very aggressive mapping to do it. I know that in the US, some tuners claim 600hp kits using the stock K24's and correct mapping with various bolt-ons, but I'm somewhat sceptical... Out of interest have you measured your APR's Andy? What are APR's Btw, I thought I'd shown you the RR printouts? Edited by EvoSlayer on Monday 21st September 15:50 Sorry, I meant AFR's... typo ! Air Fuel Ratios. I recall focusing on your boost levels... 1.2 bar to red line was nice... but can't recall if you had AFR's measured ? I'll check the printouts later on mate, I was just chatting to Mick at Malton about boost pressures and AFR's yesterday and from memory was running between 12.5-11.5 when giving it some beans!

EvoSlayer said: ZeroH said: EvoSlayer said: ZeroH said: EvoSlayer said: You should be able to get close to 600hp with K24s and stock fuelling with proper mapping, I'm running 480.7 @ wheels using K24 compressors and stock injectors albeit with a 5Bar fpr. Will the k24's really flow so much hp?... not impossible perhaps but you'll certainly need very aggressive mapping to do it. I know that in the US, some tuners claim 600hp kits using the stock K24's and correct mapping with various bolt-ons, but I'm somewhat sceptical... Out of interest have you measured your APR's Andy? What are APR's Btw, I thought I'd shown you the RR printouts? Edited by EvoSlayer on Monday 21st September 15:50 Sorry, I meant AFR's... typo ! Air Fuel Ratios. I recall focusing on your boost levels... 1.2 bar to red line was nice... but can't recall if you had AFR's measured ? I'll check the printouts later on mate, I was just chatting to Mick at Malton about boost pressures and AFR's yesterday and from memory was running between 12.5-11.5 when giving it some beans! Cool - I'll get the AFR's after my dyno run this weekend as well as boost detail, so we can compare notes. You should also try put your car onto a chassis dyno... suspect it may give a different result to the hub dyno, albeit to what extent I can't guess.

This is what I mean everyone I speak to has a different view on what should be done and changed....Really confusing, may be easier to change to a GT2

Badjwa said: This is what I mean everyone I speak to has a different view on what should be done and changed....Really confusing, may be easier to change to a GT2 Why would the issues with the GT2 be any different ? In 996 guise it shares the same engine as X50 and in 997 its pretty much the same engine bar ti exhaust and higher flow v. vane turbos !! If you want more speed the things you research will be exactly the same, only difference is the power is easier to control in the turbo.

ZeroH said: Badjwa said: This is what I mean everyone I speak to has a different view on what should be done and changed....Really confusing, may be easier to change to a GT2 Why would the issues with the GT2 be any different ? In 996 guise it shares the same engine as X50 and in 997 its pretty much the same engine bar ti exhaust and higher flow v. vane turbos !! If you want more speed the things you research will be exactly the same, only difference is the power is easier to control in the turbo. Hi, GT2 standard would have more power and everything that is necessary for the increase of power will have been upgraded. I have received conflicting info from the garages on what should be done. Isn't the X50 444hp and the GT2 483hp?

ZeroH said: Moosh said: I have Europipes fitted stage1 and yes have 6 pots on the front wheels. Looking to reach around 580/590 bhp Other things that come to my head are that above certain flow levels you may need to upgrade the MAF, How is this done mate, do you have any details ? Is it a case of replacing the unit with a different type or can the parameters be adjusted somehow and retain the Bosch unit.

EvoSlayer said: ZeroH said: Moosh said: I have Europipes fitted stage1 and yes have 6 pots on the front wheels. Looking to reach around 580/590 bhp Other things that come to my head are that above certain flow levels you may need to upgrade the MAF, How is this done mate, do you have any details ? Is it a case of replacing the unit with a different type or can the parameters be adjusted somehow and retain the Bosch unit. You need a totally new MAF with different in-built parameters... the hitachi MAF is the most popular upgrade that I'm aware of.

Badjwa said: ZeroH said: Badjwa said: This is what I mean everyone I speak to has a different view on what should be done and changed....Really confusing, may be easier to change to a GT2 Why would the issues with the GT2 be any different ? In 996 guise it shares the same engine as X50 and in 997 its pretty much the same engine bar ti exhaust and higher flow v. vane turbos !! If you want more speed the things you research will be exactly the same, only difference is the power is easier to control in the turbo. Hi, GT2 standard would have more power and everything that is necessary for the increase of power will have been upgraded. I have received conflicting info from the garages on what should be done. Isn't the X50 444hp and the GT2 483hp? The 997 Gt2 differences are as I mentioned pretty much... the extra 40-50hp extra tho is only an ecu tune away from the 997tt and you don't need any further hardware... in terms of discussing maf/plenums/ic's/injectors etc etc we are really talking about what needs doing to take the power to the next level, not the easy remap+exhaust gains. X50 is exactly same engine as GT2 bar extra oil cooler in the 2 and the ecu tune, but the later turboS's are running the same power upgrade... you can ref Renntech for the engine codes. Mk1 996 Gt2 runs 462hp, no change to the X50 despite the marketing claim power differences, and mk2 gt2 runs 483hp.

ZeroH said: EvoSlayer said: ZeroH said: Moosh said: I have Europipes fitted stage1 and yes have 6 pots on the front wheels. Looking to reach around 580/590 bhp Other things that come to my head are that above certain flow levels you may need to upgrade the MAF, How is this done mate, do you have any details ? Is it a case of replacing the unit with a different type or can the parameters be adjusted somehow and retain the Bosch unit. You need a totally new MAF with different in-built parameters... the hitachi MAF is the most popular upgrade that I'm aware of. Interesting, cheers for that fella. The power of PH eh...

TB993tt said: ZeroH said: I believe ruf use the GT2 i/cs on its nardo pack (albeit they also use stock dv's and hoses, which i've always found strange !!) Ruf uses GT2 I/Cs maybe because they have actually properly tested the cheap (mainly US made) aftermarket intercoolers and deemed that in actual road use the stock ones are better ? RS Tuning also use stock DVs and hoses - maybe that these "must have" items are actually not necessary apart from adding a little bit of extra margin for the "tuner" ? Utter garbage drivel

EvoSlayer said: ZeroH said: EvoSlayer said: ZeroH said: Moosh said: I have Europipes fitted stage1 and yes have 6 pots on the front wheels. Looking to reach around 580/590 bhp Other things that come to my head are that above certain flow levels you may need to upgrade the MAF, How is this done mate, do you have any details ? Is it a case of replacing the unit with a different type or can the parameters be adjusted somehow and retain the Bosch unit. You need a totally new MAF with different in-built parameters... the hitachi MAF is the most popular upgrade that I'm aware of. Interesting, cheers for that fella. The power of PH eh... Andy... forget the Hitachi MAF... you would have to change programme along with some hardware to run the Hitachi set up

BLKROKT said: TB993tt said: ZeroH said: I believe ruf use the GT2 i/cs on its nardo pack (albeit they also use stock dv's and hoses, which i've always found strange !!) Ruf uses GT2 I/Cs maybe because they have actually properly tested the cheap (mainly US made) aftermarket intercoolers and deemed that in actual road use the stock ones are better ? RS Tuning also use stock DVs and hoses - maybe that these "must have" items are actually not necessary apart from adding a little bit of extra margin for the "tuner" ? Utter garbage drivel You can not come on this forum and just say "Utter garbage drivel" without having your own opinion to why! If you have nothing constructive to say then DON'T!

Moosh said: You can not come on this forum and just say "Utter garbage drivel" without having your own opinion to why! If you have nothing constructive to say then DON'T! This joker doesn't even own a Porsche, just lives through his drag racing idols on 6speedonline failing to realise that most of them are just trying to flog stuff - he'll start swearing soon, that'll liven things up.....

Moosh said: Interesting, I have a tuner who wants to put larger/better IC's in my 996T x50 as well as new piping to the IC's all the way from the front so I can get up to 590 bhp. The reason for this is that with the current stage one set up, when I am on track I sometimes get power loss when hard accelerating in third out of a corner. The problem goes away when I add octane boost. After speaking to a few tuners some have told me that the GT2 IC's should be fine and the power loss will be due to some other factor. I have also been informed by other tuners that I should be able to reach higher gains in bhp than the 510 without putting the engine at risk. Of course this interests me as I would save a s**t load of money if I can get up to say 560's with my current set up, although 590/600 bhp does interest me greatly. Moosh, the problem is not your cooling... you need to work on your programming and turbos to achieve more response low down... Andy (EvoSlayer) set up of the K16/24 will be pretty good on the bottom end of things (smooth straight through)... I take it you are running K24's? BTW... who ever is telling you to front mount an intercooler is just so so wrong!

996TT_STEVO said: Moosh said: Interesting, I have a tuner who wants to put larger/better IC's in my 996T x50 as well as new piping to the IC's all the way from the front so I can get up to 590 bhp. The reason for this is that with the current stage one set up, when I am on track I sometimes get power loss when hard accelerating in third out of a corner. The problem goes away when I add octane boost. After speaking to a few tuners some have told me that the GT2 IC's should be fine and the power loss will be due to some other factor. I have also been informed by other tuners that I should be able to reach higher gains in bhp than the 510 without putting the engine at risk. Of course this interests me as I would save a s**t load of money if I can get up to say 560's with my current set up, although 590/600 bhp does interest me greatly. Moosh, the problem is not your cooling... you need to work on your programming and turbos to achieve more response low down... Andy (EvoSlayer) set up of the K16/24 will be pretty good on the bottom end of things (smooth straight through)... I take it you are running K24's? BTW... who ever is telling you to front mount an intercooler is just so so wrong! Yes I am running K24's. The IC's are not being mounted at the front just was recommended to change the piping that comes from the front of the car and feeds the ic's. As I am not very technical I may have this slightly wrong, but I know they talked about needing larger pipes to feed more air to the ic's. But from what I can gather so far from this forum is that I need to do very little to get up to 600bhp. I thought maybe the tuner was just trying to get my cash? Saying I needed larger ic's and special pipes?

Moosh said: 996TT_STEVO said: Moosh said: Interesting, I have a tuner who wants to put larger/better IC's in my 996T x50 as well as new piping to the IC's all the way from the front so I can get up to 590 bhp. The reason for this is that with the current stage one set up, when I am on track I sometimes get power loss when hard accelerating in third out of a corner. The problem goes away when I add octane boost. After speaking to a few tuners some have told me that the GT2 IC's should be fine and the power loss will be due to some other factor. I have also been informed by other tuners that I should be able to reach higher gains in bhp than the 510 without putting the engine at risk. Of course this interests me as I would save a s**t load of money if I can get up to say 560's with my current set up, although 590/600 bhp does interest me greatly. Moosh, the problem is not your cooling... you need to work on your programming and turbos to achieve more response low down... Andy (EvoSlayer) set up of the K16/24 will be pretty good on the bottom end of things (smooth straight through)... I take it you are running K24's? BTW... who ever is telling you to front mount an intercooler is just so so wrong! Yes I am running K24's. The IC's are not being mounted at the front just was recommended to change the piping that comes from the front of the car and feeds the ic's. As I am not very technical I may have this slightly wrong, but I know they talked about needing larger pipes to feed more air to the ic's. But from what I can gather so far from this forum is that I need to do very little to get up to 600bhp. I thought maybe the tuner was just trying to get my cash? Saying I needed larger ic's and special pipes? No probs Moosh, anything to help you out! There is no pipes that run from the front of the car... the only thing you can do is upgrade the coolers to Evoms, AWE, Blown6, Secan ( If you want to splash the cash, TOBY ) etc, etc... I done my own and got the same bar and plate cores as most aftermarkets from Bell in the US then fabricated my ends to match the Samco pipes (I done the testing for 996 Turbo Samco Hoses). IMO any of the above Coolers will perform way better that Stock or GT2 Spec, but they all do suffer especially on track, there is no getting away from it!... this is why there is so much fighting to see which is more efficient.

996TT_STEVO said: , but they all do suffer especially on track, there is no getting away from it!... . The cheap ones do, mega expensive ones don't - why do you think Porsche (and ALL the competative race teams) ran 15K Secans on the 993GT2 race cars when they could have bought any of the cheapies ?

I just dont know how a company can justify 15K for a set of small coolers , fair enough there would be a lot of testing and design time to recoup but actual materials would be 3 to 4 K tops.

Secan and Marston cores (Bar and Plate) are effectively hand made. Each set of fins welded on to the Plate, by hand. Cheap intercooler cores just use extruded cores that can be "printed" off to any size required. The fact that the Bar and Plate cores are hand made allows the materials to be much, much thinner and hence offer much better thermal transfer and resist heat soak. Cheap intercoolers become radiators, storing heat not dissipating it. This is handy as they'll use chassis dynos with no load and no time to impart heat soak, hence producing inflated performance metrics for their cores. Quality costs.

Neil Allan said: I just dont know how a company can justify 15K for a set of small coolers , fair enough there would be a lot of testing and design time to recoup but actual materials would be 3 to 4 K tops. The 15K ones were not small, they were massive (see pic below) all hand made as UV well explains... TBH it doesn't matter whatever people think about the price of Secan intercoolers, you can't actually buy them anymore since Secan are too busy with stuff for Airbus where it actually matters that the coolers work as promised....

TB993tt said: 996TT_STEVO said: , but they all do suffer especially on track, there is no getting away from it!... . The cheap ones do, mega expensive ones don't - why do you think Porsche (and ALL the competative race teams) ran 15K Secans on the 993GT2 race cars when they could have bought any of the cheapies ? Toby... you really are stuck up on this money thing aren't you? ... I don't wish to argue with you but I can tell you another company that is in Belgium running their coolers instead of Secan and it's for a race team (get that one then!!!)... infact they are doing a set of coolers for a good friend of mine who is also in Belgium who I am more than happy for him to post here and tell you this... shoot me your email and I will get him to talk to you if you wish

Ultra Violent said: Secan and Marston cores (Bar and Plate) are effectively hand made. Each set of fins welded on to the Plate, by hand. Cheap intercooler cores just use extruded cores that can be "printed" off to any size required. The fact that the Bar and Plate cores are hand made allows the materials to be much, much thinner and hence offer much better thermal transfer and resist heat soak. Cheap intercoolers become radiators, storing heat not dissipating it. This is handy as they'll use chassis dynos with no load and no time to impart heat soak, hence producing inflated performance metrics for their cores. Quality costs. You are very correct... all the above I have mentioned are Bar & Plate cores, Evoms, AWE, Blown6 etc... anything is better than stock.

TB993tt said: Neil Allan said: I just dont know how a company can justify 15K for a set of small coolers , fair enough there would be a lot of testing and design time to recoup but actual materials would be 3 to 4 K tops. The 15K ones were not small, they were massive (see pic below) all hand made as UV well explains... TBH it doesn't matter whatever people think about the price of Secan intercoolers, you can't actually buy them anymore since Secan are too busy with stuff for Airbus where it actually matters that the coolers work as promised.... Yip... because I purchased them, that means they are the best Never know Toby they might become a rare item and treble in cash... wow 45K for a set of Coolers

996TT_stevo said: Toby... you really are stuck up on this money thing aren't you? ... I don't wish to argue with you but I can tell you another company that is in Belgium running their coolers instead of Secan and it's for a race team (get that one then!!!)... infact they are doing a set of coolers for a good friend of mine who is also in Belgium who I am more than happy for him to post here and tell you this... shoot me your email and I will get him to talk to you if you wish Stevo, you really think that I WANT to spend money ? of course I want the same as everyone else: stuff that works at the best price.... Is your Belgium source AD - Sport ? Edited by TB993tt on Tuesday 22 September 15:00

Toby... I will email the guy tonight... I am more than happy to help out, but sometimes it sounds like you give me a good ol' going over... I too also want something that is reliable and cost effective.

Just curious Toby... how the hell do they get a good cool flow of air to the Secans? ... am I right in thinking they remove all the ducting to accommodate the cooler? ... it's always got me!!!

Don't be stupid, they cost 15 grand..they don't need ducting!

EvoSlayer said: Don't be stupid, they cost 15 grand..they don't need ducting! Hey... don't you bloody start

996TT_STEVO said: EvoSlayer said: Don't be stupid, they cost 15 grand..they don't need ducting! Hey... don't you bloody start

996TT_STEVO said: Toby... I will email the guy tonight... I am more than happy to help out, but sometimes it sounds like you give me a good ol' going over... I too also want something that is reliable and cost effective. You don't need to "help me out", I have researched this to death, I have paid for and imported other tuners intercoolers I have tested and logged IATs on the road (far more than any of your quoted sources) I have had some designed and made by a company who supplies F1 and Eurofighter - I have tested again and again. They have then been tested by the best German Porsche turbo race engine builder - they work ! We are currently discussing them having sole rights to sell them.... They will not be of interest to 99% of forum users - they will cost near 10K a set, but there is a market for this type of stuff but most of potential buyers do not post on forums - that is saddos like us ! I am simply trying to save people some money - 2K here and there on mickey mouse tuning stuff soon adds up to 10K then 15K - I know I've been there !! Don't contact your guy, it is more than likely the stuff used by AD. They made a couple of their super duper intercoolers for two people I know, they cost about 4K Euro - One of the guys had the intercoolers tested by one of the better Euro Porsche tuners who commented "don't waste our time like this again" !! Oh, the big Secan - I think they just leave the hood unshrouded without proper sealing, the intercooler is so good it doesn't need it...

I always enjoy Toby's sceptisism when it comes to tuning and like the sentiment of trying to help others save ££. On the subject of the i/c's, this is yet a bridge I have to cross, but am happy that mt GT2 jobs are not being over-taxed by a stage 1 X50 tune - if they do heat-soak, I certainly havent driven the car hard enough yet to notice. Its also nice, reading Rennlist, to see that Toby is actually inciting tuners to do testing that they may or may not have done otherwise !! On the hoses and dv's I simply refute that stock items are as good as the aftermarket ones... the rubber hoses I took out of my car when compared with the samco's are a joke - cheap rubber that had degraded, and with crappy metal ends. No one is gonna tell me that the Samco's are not a performance/reliability upgrade. Same deal with the dv's - early stock ones were made by fisher price and the common symptom of whistling to indicate when the stock dv's are toast, is a commonly observed phenomina amongst turbo owners. Going back to the OP's original question of what to do to get to 600hp..... bigger turbos & appropriate actuators, remap and an upgrade to your fuelling (whether by 5bar fpr or bigger injectors, or both) would probably be what I would look to do. Beyond that, in my car, I'm looking for internals to be done.

TB993tt said: 996TT_STEVO said: Toby... I will email the guy tonight... I am more than happy to help out, but sometimes it sounds like you give me a good ol' going over... I too also want something that is reliable and cost effective. You don't need to "help me out", I have researched this to death, I have paid for and imported other tuners intercoolers I have tested and logged IATs on the road (far more than any of your quoted sources) I have had some designed and made by a company who supplies F1 and Eurofighter - I have tested again and again. They have then been tested by the best German Porsche turbo race engine builder - they work ! We are currently discussing them having sole rights to sell them.... They will not be of interest to 99% of forum users - they will cost near 10K a set, but there is a market for this type of stuff but most of potential buyers do not post on forums - that is saddos like us ! I am simply trying to save people some money - 2K here and there on mickey mouse tuning stuff soon adds up to 10K then 15K - I know I've been there !! Don't contact your guy, it is more than likely the stuff used by AD. They made a couple of their super duper intercoolers for two people I know, they cost about 4K Euro - One of the guys had the intercoolers tested by one of the better Euro Porsche tuners who commented "don't waste our time like this again" !! Oh, the big Secan - I think they just leave the hood unshrouded without proper sealing, the intercooler is so good it doesn't need it... Errrrmmmm OK Toby... whatever you say "YOUR THE MAN"

ZeroH said: On the hoses and dv's I simply refute that stock items are as good as the aftermarket ones... the rubber hoses I took out of my car when compared with the samco's are a joke - cheap rubber that had degraded, and with crappy metal ends. No one is gonna tell me that the Samco's are not a performance/reliability upgrade. I can't get too excited about hoses and the DVs however what made me smile was that for the "production version" of my expensive intercoolers they have requested that the end tanks be redesigned and milled so that standard Porsche hoses with their "crappy metal ends" can be used instead of the nice aftermarket ones which I use with Samco (or similar) hoses and proper clamps !!! I am guessing this is more to do with an anal German determination to keep everything looking standard than actual functionality but I dunno ?

996TT_STEVO said: Errrrmmmm OK Toby... whatever you say "YOUR THE MAN" No "YOUR THE MAN" keep encouraging 996tt owners to buy any of the cheap bar and plate intercoolers out there......

BTW, for your information... It is not AD-Sport... but sure that will bug you know that I know something that you don't

996TT_STEVO said: BTW, for your information... It is not AD-Sport... but sure that will bug you know that I know something that you don't Yup.... that is bugging me, however I will bet the manufacturer is the same (there aren't that many)

TB993tt said: ZeroH said: On the hoses and dv's I simply refute that stock items are as good as the aftermarket ones... the rubber hoses I took out of my car when compared with the samco's are a joke - cheap rubber that had degraded, and with crappy metal ends. No one is gonna tell me that the Samco's are not a performance/reliability upgrade. I can't get too excited about hoses and the DVs however what made me smile was that for the "production version" of my expensive intercoolers they have requested that the end tanks be redesigned and milled so that standard Porsche hoses with their "crappy metal ends" can be used instead of the nice aftermarket ones which I use with Samco (or similar) hoses and proper clamps !!! I am guessing this is more to do with an anal German determination to keep everything looking standard than actual functionality but I dunno ? Hmmm, I suspect it may simply be because for production they can't cater for every type of aftermarket hose end-attachment produced, so if they stick to standard OE then the i/c's will have the greatest chance of a first time fitment ?

ZeroH said: Hmmm, I suspect it may simply be because for production they can't cater for every type of aftermarket hose end-attachment produced, so if they stick to standard OE then the i/c's will have the greatest chance of a first time fitment ? No, production is being organised at this end, it is the German tuner who doesn't want the ends I have on mine ("the prototype") which is basically copied from the AWE design and uses their $800 hoses and clamps (which are perfectly good so far in holding 1.6 bar) - I really think it is analism (is that a word), they get some sort of kudos from having the stock look over there....

Toby... do you ever take that GT2 on track?

996TT_STEVO said: Toby... do you ever take that GT2 on track? No, its too precious..... any dick waving and its go karts at Warrington

mmmm! don't really understand why you need to run any aftermarket coolers (even 15k Secans) when the car is not being put through it's paces... even a few straight lines at Brunters with your 15k Secans might give you, what a hundredth of a second?

996TT_STEVO said: mmmm! don't really understand why you need to run any aftermarket coolers (even 15k Secans) when the car is not being put through it's paces... even a few straight lines at Brunters with your 15k Secans might give you, what a hundredth of a second? There is no logic to it, I just like this techy stuff....gives me a buzz to know its there doing its stuff - and the satisfaction of selling my I/Cs back to the top people (whose alter I have worshipped since the late 80s) who have spanked me already and told me no one else can produce this technology.......priceless

TB993tt said: 996TT_STEVO said: mmmm! don't really understand why you need to run any aftermarket coolers (even 15k Secans) when the car is not being put through it's paces... even a few straight lines at Brunters with your 15k Secans might give you, what a hundredth of a second? There is no logic to it, I just like this techy stuff....gives me a buzz to know its there doing its stuff - and the satisfaction of selling my I/Cs back to the top people (whose alter I have worshipped since the late 80s) who have spanked me already and told me no one else can produce this technology.......priceless Toby - why don't you bring the GT2 to VMax- there can't be many/any better tuned turbo's in the UK so it would be v interesting to see what it can do against, say the Ruf 590's. I know you're not partial to a bit of speed given your 0-300km/h runs !!

Fair play Toby i just took it since this post is about 996 tuning that you were on about coolers for that car. Guess since im just getting into Porsches coming over from Cosworths where coolers for 600+ bhp engines cost well under 1K, including the ones fitted to cars that would out perform most P cars including topspeed stuff at Brunters.

Neil Allan said: Fair play Toby i just took it since this post is about 996 tuning that you were on about coolers for that car. Guess since im just getting into Porsches coming over from Cosworths where coolers for 600+ bhp engines cost well under 1K, including the ones fitted to cars that would out perform most P cars including topspeed stuff at Brunters. 997tt and 996tt I/Cs are pretty similar. Can 600hp Cosworths go over 190mph at Brunters ? (last thing I read about them was Sue Collin's spewing its oil during a 200mph attempt but that was 20+ years ago and I guess things have moved on a bit ?)

Yip there has been a couple done it now and more in the 190's Rod Tarry is the quickest with 205 i think on his old engine with a off the shelf cooler , his new engine is getting a custom one made by Spec R and should maintain power for around 212.

Neil Allan said: Yip there has been a couple done it now and more in the 190's Rod Tarry is the quickest with 205 i think on his old engine with a off the shelf cooler . With 600hp ?

Neil Allan said: Yip there has been a couple done it now and more in the 190's Rod Tarry is the quickest with 205 i think on his old engine with a off the shelf cooler , his new engine is getting a custom one made by Spec R and should maintain power for around 212. Presumably we are talking the big winged RS Cosworth.... which i've just looked up has a CD of 0.38 !! Definitely need some power to get something like that through the 200mph barrier !

Just gotta say that I love this thread. I come back after a few months off (yes Toby, you're right I don't have a 996TT anymore), and see the same old misinformation, harassment, and generally rude behavior from Toby. Bravo! You must be so proud! Bottom line - as PROVEN in real-world testing and not in the thermodynamics lab or Toby's wildly overactive imagination - is that the EVOM, Switzer, and AWE bar-and-plate intercoolers are far more efficient than the stock, GT2, or Blown6 intercoolers. How far inferior they are than the 15k Seacan intercoolers is still open for intelligent debate (sadly not found here), but they do work EXACTLY as advertised (in fact, an EVOMS intercooler-equipped 996TT went 197mph at Brunters last year. Jeez they must suck ) Edited by BLKROKT on Tuesday 22 September 17:27

TB993tt said: Neil Allan said: Yip there has been a couple done it now and more in the 190's Rod Tarry is the quickest with 205 i think on his old engine with a off the shelf cooler . With 600hp ? No sorry Rods new engine will be over 800 hence the new cooler , a 600bhp car will still be in the 190's with a cooler costing around £650 same spec as i had fitted to my old car.

such a big difference in costs, is it more because it is for Porsche

You can build great intercoolers yourself using thick Bell cores and getting the piping bent and endtanks made by any reputable shop experienced with welding aluminum. I know many people who have gone this route, they cost $1k tops, and work better than stock. What do you think EVOMS or Protomotive etc are doing? They don't have access to anything that normal consumers don't. Part of it is the "Porsche tax", and another part is that you don't really need aerospace-quality parts for your car (ie Secan). It's just absurd really unless you are running a race team where you're tearing down the engine after every race anyway. Some people just enjoy wasting money or shouting about how much they spent on things I guess...

The big BHP Fords run Nitrous Oxide which massively cools the intake charge, hence no requirement to run expensive intercoolers. There is also an optimal size for intercoolers above which size decreases performance. Obviously its a surface area to volume ratio optimisation problem, the maths is well published.

BLKROKT said: Bottom line - as PROVEN in real-world testing and not in the thermodynamics lab or Toby's wildly overactive imagination - is that the EVOM, Switzer, and AWE bar-and-plate intercoolers are far more efficient than the stock, GT2, or Blown6 intercoolers. How far inferior they are than the 15k Seacan intercoolers is still open for intelligent debate (sadly not found here), but they do work EXACTLY as advertised Here is the point do they "work as advertised" ? yes your 6speed buddies look how the intercoolers perform on the dyno with fixed airflow but that is completely useless.... the only test I have ever seen is one which AWE did after I called them out and it was only up to the end of 4th gear and their I/Cs were heating up quickly... below is a test I did with stock I/Cs, you can see in 5th gear the IAT keeps rising, it is only at the top of 6th that there is some levelling out. This is just with dragging, on a track the conditions would be even more severe with your dense cheap bar and plate designs with their cast end tanks acting as heat sinks... So you may "know" that all the intercoolers you endorse work and I am sure they do to a small extent but are they even worth the (little) money for what they do ? Who knows since there are no real tests done (like the above one) show me a test like the one above for one of your endorsed intercoolers and we can have that "intelligent debate" until then it is just talk and people paying for stuff which may or may not work..... BLKROKT said: (in fact, an EVOMS intercooler-equipped 996TT went 197mph at Brunters last year. Jeez they must suck ) Yeah, Leon's RT12 gained 10mph on that vmax and MOD's 530PS managed 196..... twas a fast day for some reason. Shavsters EVO intercoolered EVT700 managed 193 on a different day.... Edited by TB993tt on Wednesday 23 September 11:54

Don't let this thread die, really enjoying it...

To be fair and honest Toby, I don't know the exact make of the cores EVOMS and AWE use, so I can't really comment on the precise measurements regarding efficiency, heat soak, or pressure drop. I can say that they have worked as advertised for me and many many others who were concerned with the stock ICs being able to handle extended track and strip duty. For me, from dragstrip times (back-to-back-to-back-etc runs where you heatsoak for example) to Vmax speeds (also back-to-back-to-back-etc runs), just changing out the intercoolers to EVOM units with absolutely nothing else done to the car net me a measurable improvement in ALL areas (ET, mph, and Vmax). Therefore, they worked as promised - better than stock. Sadly, I wasn't able to make such a measurement at a track as I'm simply too inconsistent of a driver, but in seat-of-the-pants the more consistent and newfound extra power after many laps was obvious. Further to my previous point, I do know that Bell cores have been used for YEARS in all levels of motorsport, and are universally acknowledged as being best in class in terms of efficiency and design. I have never ever heard of them called "US made garbage" to paraphrase you, so I'm hoping you can elaborate on why you think this.

TB993tt said: BLKROKT said: (in fact, an EVOMS intercooler-equipped 996TT went 197mph at Brunters last year. Jeez they must suck ) Yeah, Leon's RT12 gained 10mph on that vmax and MOD's 530PS managed 196..... twas a fast day for some reason. Shavsters EVO intercoolered EVT700 managed 193 on a different day.... This isn't correct - you're looking at the wrong meet. Edited by BLKROKT on Wednesday 23 September 22:28

I have a 996 Turbo X50 which I want to increase the power to 550 hp as the RUF version delivers. I doubt whether I dare to increase to higher performance, as the car has a Trip Tronic gearbox. Does anyone have experience in knowing what the gearbox can handle. For now I bought a 45MM Big Bore Sports exhaust header. 200 cels sports exhaust. KN air filter. Bought the large set of WAGNER intercoolers 21244 cm3 - 74 mm throttle body - associated IPD intake plenum - Iridium spark plugs Need to order a set of new actuator from DESIGN 911 NL 99612300010, but am unsure if the standard spring 1 Bar is sufficient to achieve 550 ps - I don't know what charge pressure the X50 is equipped with but which spring color is recommended to use to achieve 550 ps . Should I upgrade the standard injectors to say 1200cc or larger. Also don't know here what size nozzle the car is originally equipped with. Or is the solution here to increase the fuel pressure. Lots of questions, but I'm hoping for good advice so I don't have to invent the deep plate myself. What is the absolute best oil for the Tiptronic gearbox and differential to buy. Best regards, Kurt Munthe DK

I have a 996 Turbo X50 which I want to increase the power to 550 hp as the RUF version delivers. I doubt whether I dare to increase to higher performance, as the car has a Trip Tronic gearbox. Does anyone have experience in knowing what the gearbox can handle. For now I bought a 45MM Big Bore Sports exhaust header. 200 cels sports exhaust. KN air filter. Bought the large set of WAGNER intercoolers 21244 cm3 - 74 mm throttle body - associated IPD intake plenum - Iridium spark plugs Need to order a set of new actuator from DESIGN 911 NL 99612300010, but am unsure if the standard spring 1 Bar is sufficient to achieve 550 ps - I don't know what charge pressure the X50 is equipped with but which spring color is recommended to use to achieve 550 ps . Should I upgrade the standard injectors to say 1200cc or larger. Also don't know here what size nozzle the car is originally equipped with. Or is the solution here to increase the fuel pressure. Lots of questions, but I'm hoping for good advice so I don't have to invent the deep plate myself. What is the absolute best oil for the Tiptronic gearbox and differential to buy. Best regards, Kurt Munthe DK