Flakes in oil and tapping

Here is a video of the noise I am experiencing in my 2000 c2 cab: https://youtube.com/shorts/s4k4iJMEdpA?si=tdVt70zdbWDH9r4R I dropped the sump and I have little copper colored flakes of metal in there. They will fly to a magnet. The noise is coming from the back left most cylinder head at the valve cover according to a stethoscope. Trying to figure out what I�m looking at, if the 2 issues are related and if this is an engine pull situation or if there is anything I can do to try to stop the tapping without pulling it (this would be my first time pulling an engine on anything other than a Subaru) I read somewhere on here that running some thin oil through it may help flush things out and possibly unstick a sticky lifter if that�s the issue. thank you in advance!

OOuuuuu no, that is bad....That engine will have to come apart... That is WAY to much metal.. Looks and sounds like a spun rod bearing.....What is the oil pressure on the gauge when hot ? at idle and at 4K RPM ? Also what was the circumstances before this started ? Oil age and type? Type of Driving .. cruising or running the snot out of it ??

^^^ I fully agree with the above. I would not run that motor again. Pulling the motor isnt that hard and rebuilds are costly. Many, many options out there so do your homework, read threads, ask question and good luck.

Good God man with the rev'ing, have you no mechanical sympathy. Sounds... horrific, rod knock or really, really bad piston slap. That motor is donzo.

Quotes source post: 19689268

Please stop running that engine... Even though its fully fubared, just hearing that rod knock like that is nauseating. Also when that rod lets go at those type revs..., you might put a window in your cases... Ya, don't believe everything you read, even on here. Don't waste your time trying to troubleshoot that engine, its done for sure. And a rebuild will need some very expensive parts like a crank, crank carrier, cases sleeved, head work and parts. Many many outrageously unusually expensive parts etc.... Here's the bad news, a diy'er total engine rebuild cost is up over $20k, thats best case scenario. A engine from 1 of the 2 big m96 rebuild guys, with crank/rods/(carrier ?) etc, over $35,000 easy when all is said and done. Don't make the mistake of thinking shortcuts on a m96 rebuild, like most other engines. There are not. Many steel sleeved/turned crank, reused pistons/cylinder 'economy' build jobs have unfortunately found that out after their second proper rebuild.... Also have a nice choice of engine swaps ( LS or 2.7t or a K -series ) for less $$$ and getting a much more robust long living less expensive to rebuild engine with gobs more WHP. And saying good riddance to the Porsche bean counter engineered m96 is a great idea when the time comes imho....

Sorry to hear and see this. Totally agree with "stop running that engine". You are only making the recovery more expensive. Many options. Good luck, and enjoy the path to the new engine, even though it will be painful... Ooh and aaah at all the new shiny parts, and smile like crazy when it's back in the car and you are ripping again!

How many miles on it?

*****. That is not what I wanted to hear. Noise started after a redline pull. So the question now becomes what is the most economical means of getting it back to driving? Unfortunately I don�t have Porsche money, it sounds like a swap to something else would probably be the best choice moving forward if I like my wallet. I was really hoping a rebuild would be like 2k in parts or something but it looks like it�s at least 5-6k in parts and would that be worth it? How do I determine if the engine is worth a rebuild? between the options of a ls swap and a k swap (or that Audi 5 cyl swap?) which one would be the least overall financial and physical pain to complete and why? Would definitely want to do something with ample diy resources and I would need 400hp out of it to keep from crying about it and giving up probably. thanks for all of your fast responses!

Quotes source post: 19689654

its 165k on the clock so no spring chicken

If you take it apart and the heads are good You can get a short block from Porsche for about 9K. But with that many miles they will probably need a lot of work. How is the rest of the car? rollers now sell for what some were selling running 10 years ago. Just saw it was a cab. Probably not worth spending money on it unless it�s really special.

What is my most economical option to get it back on the road? Would a swap be the same or cheaper than a diy rebuild? of the different swap options out there, what would be the most economical/ bang for buck? k swap? Audi 5 cyl? Ls? Also looking for least pain to complete from a mechanical and pocketbook standpoint. The electrical aspects of a swap freak me out more than the mechanical, does anyone have insight on the path of least resistance? This is my first 911 so I�d prefer it get an upgrade than sell it as a roller, just don�t have typical Porsche money to do it at the moment. Is any swap doable under 10k? thanks for the prompt responses!

Quotes source post: 19689864

Yeah it�s a rough example but cool, paint is rough interior is rough but has coil overs and an x pipe plus a hard top so very functionally fun. Also has gt3 body bits and flared back fenders definitely the best looking cab ive ever seen

Quotes source post: 19689875

This is likely your most economical solution - k swap with conversion parts from Tuning By Nick

Might be important to know which state the car is registered in, a swap in CA would be a no go.

I’ll try to get you at least a reasonable budget and parts list for a 5.3 swap this evening. It will assume you’re going to do all the work yourself. ETA - K swap going to need a turbo to not be as underpowered as M96 - LS avoids that cost while giving you the power and a motor that is under stressed propelling 3300LBS.

Quotes source post: 19689935

if you use a stock engine with all emissions equipment, you can bring it to the DMV for a referee to designate it as CARB legal: https://www.bar.ca.gov/consumer/smog...engine-changes

Totally aware of those, but have you seen anyone get past that with the 996 beside going EV.

Don’t you have to use the full factory exhaust to qualify for the exemption ?

Quotes source post: 19689959

full factory emissions equipment, so you'd have to build a custom exhaust that has the factory cat(s) of the donor vehicle. Best to make an appointment with the DMV referee and discuss what he/she will accept and work with them to make it work.

Quotes source post: 19689935

I�m in Colorado in an emissions zone but I don�t care about it I�ll find a way around it. Currently has catless x pipe plus a cel is an automatic fail here so anything but stock would probably not pass. I�m very interested in what the cost break down of a k swap with a turbo is? LS is also appealing but it seems like it might be quite a bit more cost and labor to fit that thing in there, the power potential is amazing though

Quotes source posts: 19689779, 19689875

Even engines that are not spring chickens can be healthy !! Plezse give the post mortum details so that others can learn from this unforuntate incident.....Like Oil type, age of oil, usage type when failure occured, were you in an extremely hot environment and near red-line on a sharp curve or what? The more history/details the better to determine the forensics... Here is a thread I did a few years ago for DIY replacement engines under $10k...Of course the prices have gone up but all the part numbers are there... https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ht=10K+DIY+m96 Actualyl the least expensive plug and play option is to buy a Boxster 3.2 engine and just install,You can get healthy 3.2 engines for about $3k - $3.5K ... you will lose about 25HP but be back on the road... I'm not really a fan of engine Swaps due to the labor intensity and the changing of just about everything on the car....and usually the only real gain is HP and the labor is so involved that I don't think it worth it unless you have the cash to just pay someone else to do it....If you have the cash to lay out about $40k you can just hand the key over then collect the car back with more power and a different feel...

Quotes source post: 19690022

looking through that rebuild thread it looks like by far the biggest expense in any rebuild is the block (5-6k) is this always necessary? If I pulled the engine apart and did all the bearing and chain guides with the necessary gaskets is there any reason that wouldn�t work? Obviously this assumes there isn�t any serious marking on the piston walls. just curious if that would be an awful idea and why? Seems like it could be done for a lot less without the �block� component

Quotes source post: 19690045

Come on man...give up the pre-failure history/scenario so that others can benefit... No need to be embarrassed about it....I lost a Race Engine from a double o-ringed oil filter once on the Final Eliminator Round back in the 80's....S**t happens....I will still help you even if you killed the engine over something that was avoidable....It's just a conversation that could be interesting for the both of us...

Quotes source post: 19690012

You will get the Porsche purist here condemning anything but a oem replacement. I can respect that. But also know that the bean counter m96 engine is not anything I want to sink any considerable cash into ever,, as its a bean counter compromise that Porsche had to make at that time in its history. In oem form, its about as far from a dependable robust engine as one can get with its document 23 modes of failure. And even once its re-engineered to a $35,000 dependable mill, from a big name m96 builder, its still at 300-340hp with still many of the basic bean counter shortcomings. DIY engine builds will require many expensive convoluted tools/procedures most are not familiar with, and a complete nik'd good crank/heads job will cost ya at least 25K. The short block from Porsche might cost you a little less after all is said and done with worked/rebuilt 125,000 mile core heads.... I've come to believe that the Porsche engineers at the time were so aggravated with the bean counter bosses that demanded a cheap cheap to produce engine they purposely cut corners never cut before by any Porsche engineers all to well knowing the long term ressults. For example, cutting out machining a real oil gallery instead of using a slot in the crank carrier mated to the case to supply the other half of the oil gallery. With no sealer or gasket to seal the make shift oil gallery. Most engine builders know how hard it is to seal oil galleries in 1 small area and how perfect the mating surfaces have to be. Along with the hard to diagnosis potential to leak out oil pressure internally on a already oil instability prone engine. Or oversize bolt holes used to supply oil around the bolt shanks to the head. Or the one head fits both banks,,, but needs a convoluted set of chains on both sides of the engine, or the dry imsb, or the 1 time use LoCo-sil cylinders. or... i could go on and on. Its not pretty, no matter who says it is. But it is a Porsche engine, no doubt one the Porsche engineers would like to forget... Many here won't admit it, but the m96 to any engine guru is not something they would spend 1 minute on once they understood it. Unless they were making big bucks on all the 23 failure modes of the m96 like many many do.... Here are a few links to check out on swaps I'd consider,,, with more due diligence as I've never done any of them, yet. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...one-too-4.html https://www.renn27.com/components-an...rn-key-service Zbomb can supply all LS info. jmho

Quotes source post: 19690100

Daayum Allcool..Notcool... ..I was just thinking last nite about investigating the proposition of developing a Billet M96 4 piece block and heads...... From your prospective all 996 Carrera's will be either Collector cars, or Swapped Cars in 20 years...lol I don't consider myself a Purist, I have never owned a car I didn't modify even to the point of setting World Records, but that is not my usual advice for the path everyone should take...My son just bought a Fox Body Convertable that was originally a 4 cylinder auto. and is now swapped to a 5.0 EFI with a Tremic 5 speed which is fine and he loves it, but to me its still a Swapped car and not as finished as a factory job... To me even the easiest Swap like putting an LS in a S-10 is about as simple as it gets but is still labor intense and is up to the Tech as to the finished quality which is hardly ever as finished as a factory built job...

I rebuilt my own engine, it�s not bad. I�d tear into it first to see what the damage actually is. You could have the engine out and apart in a day. Even on jackstands.

The blocks all need to be done..the cylinders all oval so they need to be re-lined and the factory coating is crap. If u r gonna do it....do it right, which requires nickasil coating and new pistons. Tons and tons of info and threads all with the same questions u have so search, research and come up with a plan that suites u.

Quotes source post: 19690159

You should do it !

Quotes source post: 19690269

Hmmm....I think before I spend a lot of brain power/time on the details/logistics/materials I need I to get a "Market Analysis Team" to tell me if it is a good idea or not....Any Market Analysis guys in here?

Quotes source posts: 19690159, 19690045

Sorry Skip, might have been a little harsh on the poor m96, but tell me anything I've said that's not true... Cylinder out of round and cyl taper are a big m96 problem, as is the defective block structure that causes those problems. All the m96 experts say by 100k miles all m96 blocks are over the oor/taper limit. And that limit is the highest out of round/taper spec for any engine I've seen. Charles from LN states .0035 is max limit. The 1 block I've measured was at .00265 thousands, almost at max @ 60,000 miles, and with a perfect looking bore no scoring at all. The pistons must be coated with an iron type antiwear coating or the aluminum pistons will score the loco-sil cylinders quickly. This coating was almost gone off the pistons/engine I measured. So bottom line, if trying to reuse 125,000 mile oem loco-sil cylinder blocks with old pistons or new very expensive oem pistons, or aftermarket pistons/rings, you'd have a slim chance of rings sealing. Also would have a short ring life with reduced whp, possible burning gobs of oil and lots of blow by. But its a gamble, maybe if you had not to far out of spec oor/taper and used new pistons with the right iron coating to be compatible with the oem loco-sil and got lucky maybe they'd seal up somewhat. But no getting past out of spec oor/taper for reduced whp output & efficiency & engine life.... Oh ya, cost for nikies is closer to $7500 after cores shipped and reengineered cyls are shipped back +taxes/etc. Maybe closer to $9.5g's if those cracked cap rods got a little bent from aos introducing a few teaspoons of oil into the cylinders for a partial hydrolock somewhere in that engines life.... And lets not forget about the crank that LN Charles says half of all rebuilds that come in have cracks. have it magna fluxed for cracks, balanced and micro polished, if it test good for no cracks...or if you're in the unlucky half, maybe add $6k for a new crank or 4k for a reconditioned one if you can find it

Quotes source post: 19690405

Actually if you wanted to do a bottom budget rebuild, if you read that post I did in 2019 posted above about the under $10k DIY you will see that Hartech was using an Aluminum ring around the top of the cylinders to hold/re-round them before he went to the full aluminum/nikasil cylinders like LN uses... The problem Hartech was having was finding a piston coating that was as good and the factory Iron plating ( Ferrsostan)...All the coatings he tried failed.. BUT, in theory , he never tried to have the piston skirts Nikasil Plated...Nikasil obviously works with Hypo-eutectic Aluminum and should be just as robust as Iron Plating .... Lokasil/Alusil is not a terrible cylinder coating and has been used for years and on many other models besides the m96/7. it is the piston coating that is the problem... Someone should actually give this a try for a budget rebuild, but no-one with the skillz would also have the incentive, and someone with the incentive usually doesn't have the skilz, and there is no business model there.. But installing the cylinder support rings, and plating just the piston skirts with Nikasil would not be very expensive... I may try this on my next rebuild, but my engines are in good health and I know how to keep them that way....

I may be mistaken but I thought that cars from 99 and 2000 were pre lokasil so they had the good cylinder coating/ no bore score issues? I pinpointed the noise to the very back left corner of the engine and it didn�t really exist anywhere else, base on that location why are people saying it�s a rod bearing? Isn�t there any other possible source for metal like that that�s closer to where I am hearing the noise? Before I saw the chips I thought maybe a valve or lifter got stuck/ floated or something is this wishful thinking?

Bore scoring is not the same as the cylinders ovaling (going out or round). At a minimum, pull the motor and pull the heads. If u dont find anything wrong, split the case and u r in for a full rebuild. If the heads r good u can put them on a porsche short block and get it running for $10-12ish.

Lol OP- drive the thing. See what happens. it will not die unless you put a bullet in its head (figuratively speaking - although i suppose you could shoot it with a gun). It does sound a bit toast as-is. Sounded like true bore scoring until you stepped on it halfway through the video and it gave a grinding sound - that's really the only sound that made my brow raise. Sounds like bad bore scoring otherwise. Buy a used m96 and throw it in. Drive it into the ground. edit i will also admit i don't have enough info to give a serious response (even tho i was being sort of serious). does it burn oil? smoke? no power? misfire? have you done a compression test? love PT3 chiming in on being embarrassed (do u think he's embarrassed??) and then going off on how he destroyed his "race engine"

Quotes source post: 19690536

I don't know if he is embarrassed or not....I asked 3 times for the pre-failure report and didn't get squat...I will not ask again...lol Yes I was definitely pissed off about loosing that Race Engine over a double O-ringed oil filter ( not embarrassed just pissed off) , my Crew Chief actually saw the fluid leaking just before the green light and could have stopped me, but it was the Final Round and he thought it was just coolant, and it only needed to run for 6 more seconds to get the WIN, but the engine locked up at full tilt in 2 gear, twisted the crankshaft.. You know how that is to run it till it dies...I see you say that often.....

Saw this when I got home from work... Parts list will have to wait until I'm done watching it,,, Maybe inspirational for you ? You Tube

Quotes source post: 19690570

sorry, just was driving around town then on the highway for a bit, got off the highway and did a pull on a straight country road and tapping started then it actually lost power and I got a tow home. Started it back up to find source of noise

Quotes source post: 19690658

But why? Have you not ben reading what memebrs have written since you started the thread?

Quotes source post: 19690667

that all happened before the thread existed unfortunately

Sorry for your issues….the good old what I call panning for gold.There is a lot of good advice on this thread.i have disassembled three 996 short block I acquired on the cheap two off them unusable crankshafts .The debris in both oil pans looked like yours.Before you pull the engine out and apart do a deep dive and search the various threads on rennlisters who documented their engine rebuilds.To name but a few:SoundnSpeed,Logray,carlvs,yazz996,OutNSpace. Rennlist user names.And there are others.Familiarize yourself with what it will take to rebuild your engine and cost before you dive in.May the Porsche gods be with you .-regards-

5.3 Iron LM7 $850 - 5.3 Alum LM4 $1500 - 6.2 Alum L92 $2000 LS3 style intake manifold, fuel rail, injectors - $700 Front sump oil pan $500 Accessory stuff - $500 DIY Intake - $250 Headers - $200 DIY Exhaust - $800 Motor mounts, trans adapter - $1950 Clutch/FW - $1883 Air conditioning plug and play with factory lines - $750 Electric power steering - $1000 Plug and Play ECU/Harness - $3000 (this can be done for cheaper if you do your own wiring, this is a P&P solution with full OEM functionality retained) Cam/Valve springs - $800 (optional, but you should if you like to party) Porsche DWB Pedal - Free, if you do this I'll send you mine A bunch of this stuff could be done cheaper (wiring, electric PS) depending on your level of handiness and how much research you're willing to do, or more expensive. I would set aside $1K-$2K aside on top of this for misc stuff. The installation is actually really easy. There is some cutting of sheetmetal needed to fit water pump which to be done right should be done with someone with some fabrication skills and welded back up when done but it's a couple hours work, once that's done the engine will just bolt right up, it's no harder than putting the M96 back in and because of the V configuration, there is a ton more room in the engine bay everywhere except above the intake manifold so its easy to work on. Actually, intake routing is pretty tight also but there are a lot of folks who have done this and you can reference how they did for your DIY creation, The 5.3L engines will make 350WHP up and the 6.2L will make...more. The aluminum options will add no weight, the iron blocks weigh 100LBS more than aluminum variants. No matter what variant you choose, performance wise you are at or ahead of ANY M96 you will put back in at ANY price. You will also get the benefit of cheap parts available everywhere in stock. There are millions of these engines running on the road still, support compared to the M96 is reflective of that reality. It's possible I'm forgetting something, feel free to reach out if you have any specific questions or post them up. Good luck.

Quotes source post: 19690022

Wow, that is reasonable. It's pretty much a straight swap too, in term of the long block. The 3.2 is still going to have forged pistons, so there's that. The Audi 2.7 swap sounds interesting to me because of how plug&play it is. Not really that much changing out of stuff. For example it uses the same engine computer.

Ran across Project 6 on facebook looks like they're planning to offer factory functionality Audi 4.2L V8 swap kits that don't require any cutting. Being facebook its hard to find any real information about it though. https://www.facebook.com/share/p/YVy6LN3QdebFyKBU/

Quotes source post: 19691202

That is an interesting proposition. Plug and play, no cutting up the 996, substantial weight savings, big power, and inexpensive. I have owned 9 Audis over the past 30 years (still do) and the 4.2 is my favorite Audi engine. Don't know what it would take to bullet proof it for the track, but this is an interesting swap if someone is inclined.

Quotes source post: 19691046

Thanks that is very helpful! It seems to me that all of these are very good options, at the moment my mind is biasing towards taking a look a a 3.2 that�s for sale locally for $4k just because that would get me out cruising before fall is over then I could pull and resell it later. As far as a proper swap goes the v8 option is great but the k swap seems simpler, half as many spark plugs/ injectors, less weight and Honda reliability and prices. Nothing against the American v8 but my other car is a turbo Subaru with 278k on the clock so I trust the Japanese reliability for a used engine the most. The other thing about the k swap that appeals to me is it seems like there would be a ton of room in the engine bay to work on stuff and pulling that engine seems more hassle free than the larger options. What I might do is do a downgrade swap to a k motor and get it driving na just to prove to myself I can do it, then as a reward turbo it up to like 400-425 on stock internals. I�m going to figure out a parts list but I think that may be the second cheapest option and it�s got some serious upside potential with additional investment over time. I think my taste for seriously troubleshooting or rebuilding this engine has soured thanks to all of your input, I really appreciate the bullet dodge. Something that could definitely change the math is if my existing engine and exhaust are worth something, does anyone have a ballpark value for an engine in this condition? I would morally need to be upfront with pics of the oil included in the listing obviously but maybe some boxster folk would eat up the opportunity to rebuild a 3.4?

Let me know how long a plug swap on the ole K takes... Vs.

The discussion here about the cylinders on the M96 going oval over time made me think about this old design from the late 70's ... The cylinders don't have to be perfectly round BUT they do have to SEAL . That's why I designed the Blow-by Test for M96 found here only on Rennlist... The cylinders do start to go oval after time on the M96 but the rings also go oval to keep the seal. That's why you can't just throw in a new set of rings on an old cylinder, you would be better off reusing the old rings that are fitted to the cylinder, the new rings will not seal on an ovaled cylinder..To install new (round) rings you have to correct the cylinder... This engine design was a 500cc V4 with 32 valves designed by Honda to race in GP motorcycles...The rules stated it could have no more than 4 cylinders and the V4 two-strokes were dominating ....Honda was known for four-strokes and wanted to compete so they fudged the rules by creating this oval v4 with 8 valves per cylinder that had the air flow of a v8 to get more air in....Took them years to get the valve train and ring seal problems worked out.And they still got spanked by the two-strokes because the 4-stoke was 20kg heavier up high on the top of the cylinders and caused a higher center-of-gravity ..... But it was a Proof of Concept...and quite impressive..

EDIT - I thought post was missing but see it now.

It's still there on mine....I'm the only one I think that hates Chevy's ...... and I promise I didn't do it...

If you had the power to delete my posts Skip, I think you'd have more fertile ground to cover than that post

Quotes source post: 19691626

Yeah, if I had the power Gm would have went bankrupt in 2008, they still owe me some $$$ back in Social Security Account ..

Potentially silly question, would a vortec 8.1L fit? Is that substantially larger than the 5.3 externally?

Quotes source post: 19691933

Not sure if it will fit. 8.1 is a big block, not a LS. Seems the biggest LS most swap in a 996 is the 6.2 LS. LS aluminum block type engines are the most swapped engine to go in a 996, with the most support and install kits/parts by far. An easy.500 HP engine. . Just like Zbomb's LS 3 that probably puts out 550chp naturally aspirated. Although Zbomb's is not a simple swap. Its set up for the track with a sweet dry sump system + many other details his build thread here details. You should read it...

Quotes source post: 19691933

I can't tell you it won't fit as I have never heard of anyone trying it, my thought is no. I can say, none of the stuff I listed would support such an effort.

Ok so just looking more heavily in to the 3.2 swap and wanted to clarify, it looks like there are a couple of versions a 250-260hp earlier one and the 05-06 one that makes 280hp. obviously more power is preferred especially since I�d be taking a cut regardless just wondering if both versions plug right in to the 911 computer and are truly plug and play or if there are any electronic alterations (different ecu?) needed for either option. Also wondering if my 2000 is a drive by wire or not/ how to easily check. Used 3.2 prices on eBay including freight are currently about $5500 for the 05-06 and around $4500 for the earlier 00-02 for 100k examples I also saw a 3.4 in a crashed 911 with 216k on it listed at $7000 which seems extremely steep to me for such high miles. I called and they said ther bottom was 6k shipped. This puts it almost even with a 100k 3.2 but trying to determine how scared I should be of that 216k mileage, I would think very scared but I�d like opinions anyway. This swap would probably be a temporary measure until I pull together the time and money for something more drastic in the future

You need the 3.2 from 2002 or eariler...the 2003 up models are not plug&play due to the vario-cam designes.. You can swap your 3.4 intake ,throttle body, and headers to the 3.2 and boost the HP back to within about 20hp of the 3.4...

Quotes source post: 19694002

I have gotten many parts from this place. Very reasonable to deal with.

Quotes source post: 19694022

ok that makes more sense, was wondering how 300hp to 260 hp translated to a 20hp loss�

What about the Audi 2.7 turbo swap from renn27.com?

Quotes source post: 19694247

it�s like 12k I think and I�m trying to stay low budget

Quotes source post: 19694253

450+ HP - that's a LOT of bang for the buck. Some bucks are involved though, true.

Quotes source post: 19694253

First rule in Porsche Club: there is no such thing as a low budget Porsche.

Quotes source post: 19694253

I understand, are you a DIY'r...? Will you do all the engine work/removal/install/refresh/update/etc..?

With regards to power, this is the only graph I have seen and they fudged the graph to indicate crank HP instead of WHP by putting in a huge correction factor. One of the owners did relay to me that WHP was around 435 (if you were to 0 the correction factor it would be 397WHP) but that power level required upgraded rods, so you are basically at a full rebuild to replicate. That and the complexity of a turbo, boost control (or die) and a swap that while everyone says how good an idea it is and how the plug and play aspect is so appealing - try to find feedback from someone actually running this not working for Renn27. Also, weird that for a complete plug and play they include a crimp tool and pins. So, you add a bunch of complexity, a motor that requires a turbo AND upgraded internals to get to where an LS3 can go with just a cam. Ok, then you get to the price of the parts at $14.8K without a motor. The kit and components do look really nice. Full turnkey installed, $30K. Honestly, with the turbo and intercooler stuff, I think for a run of the mill swap this is MORE complicated than a run of the mill LS.

The lowball offer gods have shined upon me and I have procured a 3.2 with 86k out of a 02 boxster for a hair over $3400 all told with shipping. I�ll keep you posted on how it all works out and get some pics of the engine failure if possible once it�s out. I love all the high hp ideas but for now my near empty wallet rules the day and I want to get out for some fall top down driving. Maybe a low boost turbo is in my future with this thing, who knows we�ll see if it truly is gutless on power or not comparatively

Quotes source post: 19694290

I reject your reality, and substitute my own!

You'll be my hero if you turbo it - I had an idea before the LS of disposable Boxster motors turbo'd to 350 to 400 WHP. The intercooler plumbing in a narrow body was what made me give up on it. Good luck man !

Congrats. Garageman sells great used parts, and I think you got a good price on that engine.

Another potentially silly question, do I need to do any sort of ecu reflash or tune on my existing ecu for the new 3.2 to work and run right or does the ecu just read sensors and figure things out on its own? Same question regarding a 5 psi boost as well.

Quotes source post: 19694554

Wow, that�s amazing and quite resourceful of you. Fingers crossed!

Quotes source post: 19698056

I have no idea if there is an actual difference between the ECU for the 3.2 and 3.4. I think there ought to be, therefore I think the safest route would be to adjust the fuel and timing maps to compensate for the smaller engine. If I were in your shoes, I�d purchase an ECU for the 3.2 engine. I�d also purchase another ECU for the 3.4. Then I�d clone an exact copy of your original 3.4 ecu to the newly-purchased 3.4 ecu. I would then read the flash from the 3.2L ecu and then write a copy onto the new 3.4 ecu. The flash contains the fuel and timing maps. The result of this is the new 3.4 ecu has the proper maps to run a 3.2L engine, but also contains the VIN and immobilizer data from your original ECU. Set your original 3.4 ecu and the 3.2 ecu aside for safekeeping, for if you ever decide to install a 3.4L engine in your car, or if you need to re-read the data from the 3.2L ecu. It may seem a bit excessive, but hard drives do fail, wiping out your saved ECU data, and having a hard copy available may come in handy. I checked this morning, and used ECUs are going for roughly $100 each. I think it�s pretty inexpensive for some insurance. I have no idea how you would conveniently adjust the fuel&timing for tuning a turbo kit. You can adjust the flash data that you copied from your ECU, but it would be a horrendous waste of time. You�d have to open up your ECU each time you�d want to write to it, wasting precious dyno time. Your best bet may be to follow Tim�s example and install a dual ecu setup which will allow for real time adjustment. Or, if you don�t have to deal with emissions testing, you could even switch to a standalone ECU. edit: here is Tim�s thread on his dual-ecu setup https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/1435404-my-maxxecu-setup.html

Quotes source post: 19698090

I am a proper newbie when it comes to the electronics stuff, how would I go about doing a reflash to my existing ecu if I did what you are suggesting? What equipment/ programs would be needed? My Subaru buddy used romraider to tune his wrx I believe but I�m just not familiar enough to know the mechanics/ steps of doing a reflash especially on something like this (not sure it would be different at all difficulty wise?) thanks!

I�ve never messed around with Porsche DMEs, but I have successfully cloned several BMW DMEs and Benz ECUs of the same era (early to mid 2000s). The tool that I used was cheap Chinese copy (aka �clone�) of Alientech�s K-Tag. This post by Tim S shows that FGTech Galletto can successfully read and write several Porsche DMEs, including the variants controlling the 3.2L and 3.4L engine. I�ve never used Galletto, but I�m assuming most copies floating around are also clones. With respect to these cheap Chinese copies: I�ve read that some people have bricked their ECUs inadvertently. That�s partially the reason why I encourage you to keep your original 3.4 DME and to purchase a 3.2 DME that you won�t be overwriting. If you only read data from it, you�re not going to brick it, which keeps you from losing valuable information. I got my K-tag clone from eBay, but you can find it on aliexpress if you must. These aren�t the only tools that you can use, but they are the cheapest that do work. There are other choices that cost a lot more, but they have the ability to deal with newer and more complicated ECUs.

No need to reflash/tune the ECU... The 3.2 has the same head ports, cams, valve size, stroke as the 3.4...only difference is it's 200cc less.....( and the intake, throttle body, headers which you will swap over ).. I installed a 3.2 to replace 2.7 in a Boxster and it ran like a striped Ape with no tune, just plug&play...the DME is pretty smart...

Quotes source post: 19698056

The first part is already answered - you don't need to do anything to run the 3.2 on your 3.4 DME. I think you need to reuse the 3.2 fuel injectors. The second part, if you add boost of any sort you definitely need a reflash and probably larger fuel injectors and/or a different fuel pressure regulator and/or a different MAF housing. Were I boosting an M96 I would use a supercharger as they are far more gentle on the engine internals. There used to be a supercharger kit available. Something like 5 pounds of boost will add about 35% to the power and should not need an intercooler. It's a bit risky as the M96 has pretty high compression which is the opposite of what you want with boost.

Quotes source post: 19698967

Is that a typo about the injectors or do you mean re use the 3.4 injectors in the 3.2? Is there a difference or are they the same part? I would think the injectors would be the same with such a small displacement difference on that same concept of the computer learning to run a system with 200 less ccs with no issue I would think there would be some safe range of boost without tuning, maybe only a couple of psi but still an interesting thought. Ive been thinking about the space logistics of a turbo setup and it seems to me that 2 small turbos (one for each bank) mounted where the mufflers are would probably be the simplest and most straightforward setup from a space perspective as strange as that sounds it seems to me that running ultra low boost of around 2-3psi would be the sweet spot, that would put power above the stock 3.4 by about 20-30hp, you get to make turbo noises, and maybe you could do it without a tune? I would think super low boost like that would be relatively low risk to the engine as well. this all may just be a way for me to end up spending 3.4 rebuild money on this budget solution, fun to think about though

Alright the swap to a 3.2 is complete. Total cost including new engine, fluids and a few tools was around $4k which definitely beats the other options from a budget perspective. Swap was pretty straightforward just switching out upper engine components and harness and drilling/ tapping holes for the new intake and exhaust mounts. No modifications to the computer or 3.4 fuel system were made and all is well at least for my 2 test drives. As far as performance it feels pretty similar to the 3.4 but with a bit less snap to it. Maybe I�ll try some low boost type thing later on to get the snap back but for now I�m back on the road for much less than I bought the car for so mission accomplished. Very surprised that more people don�t do this swap considering how plug and play/ affordable it is. Definitely is the way to go if you aren�t looking to spend 10k+ and just want to be back on the road with similar performance to stock

Quotes source post: 19937459

Wow. I have to say, that�s quite the bang for your buck. For folks in a pinch with funds, there is nothing that comes close. Plus, the car is worth more than a roller now. Maybe a supercharger can get you back to 300HP if you wanted that.

Quotes source post: 19938649

see the thread I started called �boost in extreme moderation� for that discussion on turbo/ superchargers