Yet another 996 Cylinder 1 misfire thread

OK Rennlisters-- I have a 2003 996.2. I've been fighting a cylinder 1 misfire for two months now have yet to resolve it. I think I've read everything posted on Rennlist and 6speed. I hope you can come up with something new. Relevant Car History Jan. 2015, 86 kmi: Replaced fuel pump. On the 996.2 the fuel filter is part of the fuel pump, which resides inside of the gas tank. May 2015, 87 kmi: Replaced stock engine with professionally rebuilt X51 engine (see https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...mentation.html ). Includes new IMS roller bearing, piston rings, main bearings, rod bearings, head gasket, seals, cylinder head bolts, water pump, LNE low-temperature thermostat, spark plugs. The ignition coils look new. The air intake manifold and exhaust manifold were upgraded to the X51 versions using used components. The mufflers were replaced with used Porsche Sport Exhaust (PSE) mufflers with the valves permanently wired into the "loud" position. July 2015, 89 kmi: I was unable to get a standard Porsche X51 ECU flash, so I got one for the 996.2 X51 from Evolution Motorsports. I've noticed some hydrogen sulfide smell when I floor it and rev it up to 7000 rpm. I suspect that the flash results in a little too much fuel input at high revs, possible damaging the catalytic converters. June-Dec. 2015: Several oil changes at 4000 miles with Joe Gibbs DT40 5W40 oil. Spin-on filter using the LNE adapter. Nov. 2015, 95 kmi: Replaced stock springs, shocks, and sway bars with the ROW M030 version. These transmit the shock from large bumps to the chassis very well, so something like the cat cartridge or wiring could have been bumped loose. Dec. 2015, 97 kmi: Replaced the M030 shocks with Koni FSD shocks. These take the big bumps much more smoothly. Dec. 2015, 96.3 kmi: The problems starts. After the car had been driven about 10 minutes and was warmed up, while idling at a stoplight, the engine started running rough and the check-engine light came on. My code reader said P0300 (random cylinder misfires damaging to catalytic converter), P0301 (cylinder 1 misfire), and P0305 (cylinder 5 misfire). After a minute, it ran fine. I cleared the codes, drove some more that day, and only the cylinder 1 misfire returned. Cylinder 1 is the left side of the car toward the rear of the car. I replaced the cylinder 1 spark plug. It looked normal. At the same time I replaced the ignition coil, which looked normal and had a low resistance (I forgot what I read). The engine ran fine for 500 miles. I fixed it! Or did I? Dec. 2015, 96.8 kmi: Regularly scheduled oil and filter change with DT40. Dec. 2015, 96.9 kmi: Brief cylinder 1 misfire. Unplugged the connector to the ignition coil. It looks pristine inside. It was solidly clicked into place before and after inspection. I did notice that the overflow from the coolant tank has a hose that dumps right onto the coil. I moved it, but it wants to move back by itself. Jan. 2016, 97.4 kmi: After many more cylinder 1 misfires, I replaced the cylinder 1 fuel injector with a new one. Afterward, the car ran fine for a few minutes, then the problem returned. With my Durametric, I can turn off each fuel injector. Doing so makes it run really rough and almost die. The misfires that I have been feeling have not been that rough. I learned from the indy German car mechanic who installed my X51 engine that if the misfire is too bad, the ECU shuts off all fuel to that cylinder. Just turning the car off and back on restores the fuel flow. Jan. 2016, 97.7 kmi: After revving it up, one time I got code P0430: catalytic converter efficiency bank 2 (which is cylinders 4-6 on the right side of the car). Jan.-Feb. 2016 I have been looking for patterns with the misfires. The most common time is about two minutes after starting a cold engine, when idling at a stoplight. But is also occurs sometimes when the engine has been running for over 10 or even 30 minutes. It usually goes away within two minutes. I don't see a correlation with rainy days. I've gone through 4+ tanks of gas. Porsche diagnosis protocol. For code P0301, Porsche says to do the following: * Check fouled, faulty or incorrect spark plugs. Done (replaced). * Check contact resistance. Looks OK at the connector to the coil. The next step would be to look for damage to the wire from the ECU (behind the back seats) and the coil. * Check for loose contacts. See above. I looked that huge bundles of wires that connect to the ECU and didn't see anything amiss. The region was dry. * Check for mixture too rich or lean. The MAF sensor could be a problem, but I doubt it because only one cylinder is misfiring. * Fuel tank empty. It's not. * Valve lifter chattering. I do hear a tick-tick-tick at same rate as the camshafts are spinning when the engine is idling. My indy says it's not a problem. It is not correlated to rough running. * Camshaft control badly adjusted. All of cylinders in one bank would be misfiring, so that's not it. * VarioCam does not switch over completely. Again, this should affect all cylinders in one bank. * Check fuel pressure. I don't have the tool for that. All of the other cylinders are getting fuel, so this is probably not it. * Check volume supply of fuel pump. See above. If I open up the port, I need a special replacement crush seal that I don't see at Pelican Parts or anywhere else. * Check triggering of fuel injectors. To access the fuel injectors, I have to drop the engine down two inches and unplug one. I don't see how to run the engine and have the injector unplugged at the same time. Your thoughts are appreciated!

I see this in the stuff above - "* Check contact resistance. Looks OK at the connector to the coil. The next step would be to look for damage to the wire from the ECU (behind the back seats) and the coil." - but I can't tell if you've done that. Is there any chance the wire that connects to that coil pack got crushed during the engine swap? Maybe someone else can chime in on what the resistance across the two wires should be when the car is off. Does Martin have any suggestions?

Here are some clues from a freeze frame on my code reader. I don't know how to interpret most of the terms or what the values should be. DTCFRZF = P0301 FUELSYS1 = CL FUELSYS2 = CL LOAD_PCT (%) = 2.0 SHRTFT1 (%) = -3.9 LONGFT1 (%) = 4.7 SHRTFT2 (%) = 2.3 LONGFT2 (%) = 3.9 RPM (/min) = 680 VSS (mph_ = 0

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Checking the wiring resistance to the coil and to the fuel injector is my next step. I think it will be painful, so I wanted to see if there's something easier to check first. The engine was out for the X51 swap, and out before that when repairing damage from being rear-ended two years ago. The connector looks fine as far as I can tell.

I am sorry if I missed it, but...have you swapped coil 1 with any other cylinder to see if the misfire moves?...just a thought

The freeze frame indicates the code was tripped when engine was idling, close loop fuel control. What are the cam deviation values on both banks? Are the valies steady at all rev when taken out for a test drive? One suggestion I have is disconnect the two X59 big round engine connectors in the right rear engine bay and spray both sides with deoxit. Your engine(s) have been dropped a few times so it's possible those connectors got contaminated and have developed corrosion on them. If you are sure it's cyl #1 only, a leak down test may he worth while.

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The first thing I did was to install a new spark plug and coil on cylinder 1. The misfire went away for two weeks, so it probably would have gone away by itself. The old plug looked fine. The old coil also looked fine and had the correct resistance.

The misfire can be due to the low/high lift feature (VarioCam Plus) of one or both intake lifters on that cylinder not working right. There is a pretty involved test which has the tech checking the O2 sensor readings under specific operating conditions to confirm this is the likely cause of the misfires. For cars under warranty the SOP is to replace all lifters in the bank with the misfiring cylinder(s). The lifter problem -- if that is what it is -- is a "new" engine problem. I say "new" for if my math is right the engine has around 10km or approx. 6K miles which is very low miles. The malfunctioning lifter arises from contamination -- dirt -- which affects the lifter hardware. Hate to mention it but I note you are running a low temp T-Stat. Thus you might want to check the #1 cylinder for signs of bore scoring. However I think bore scoring a long shot for if the bore was scored enough to cause misfiring I think you'd hear something and the misfires would occur more often.

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I collected data with the Durametric for a 15-minute drive. To my surprise, the camshaft deviations remained constant as the car warmed up and the engine revved from 770 to 3000 rpm. Camshaft 1 deviation: 3.91 degrees Camshaft 2 deviation: 1.31 degrees. IIRC, the spec is under 5 degrees. That's a good tip. I will try it. What would that tell me?

Your cam deviations are good and they are supposed to be rock solid at any rev so yhat shouldn't be surprising. A misfire can be caused by wrong air/fuel mixture, no sparks, wrong timing, or no compression. Since you have already eliminated fuel injector, coil and plug. The rests are compression and intermittent spark failure. Compression wise it can be an intermittent lifter hang up. Leak down test can tell you if the cylinder is sealing well.

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Thanks, Macster. The rebuilt engine had a 6-month warranty. I started having misfires at 6.5 months. The engine now has 12 kilomiles (kmi, not km...I'm in California near you) on it. My biggest fear is that it's something internal as you suggested could be the case. I talked to the builder and they swear that there is no way it could be something inside of the engine, but I don't buy it. They also said it's probably the spark plug or coil, even though I told them that I replaced those with new ones and the problem returned after two weeks. If all of my electrical testing and cleaning doesn't produce a result, I need to find a shop that can run the test you described. The indy German car mechanic who installed the engine, and has taken Jake Raby's class, said that he could not think of any more tests to perform beyond what I had already done with replacing the spark plug, coil, and fuel injector, and looking at the Durametric. I don't trust my local Porsche dealer after going there twice. Once they didn't fix the problem with the alarm going off when using the mechanical key to open the door. Another time, when they replaced the window mechanism they left the door panel loose and rattling. Both times they said that my brake fluid was really old. One of those times it was less than a week old; the other it was a year old.

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Thanks, Ahsai. Can you recommend a brand of leak-down tested to buy to test it myself?

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I use this one from OTC http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0030EVL60/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1454796179&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=otc+leak+down+tester&dpPl=1&dpID=51xtBQ2m0ZL&re f=plSrch I would try the Deoxit first before anything though since it's so easy. The test Macster described is in the diagnostic chapter of the factory service manual. Basically it's testing if the high lift and low lift are operating correctly in that bank. It still will not be able to id an individual cyl hence the remedy is replacing all 6 intake lifters in that bank. To completely eliminate the injector, coil and plug, one would need to scope the injector and coil signal in realtime when the misfire occurs. You know that you can see the misfire counts for each cylinder in Durametric, right? It may help if you monitor those counters during cold start and the first 10min of driving to see if only cyl 1 misfires or there are other cyl misfires too. The frequency of misfires needs to exceed some threshold before the DME would trip the P030x code so no code doesn't necessarily mean no misfires on that cylinder.

DrMEMS, I had a stuck intake lifter on cylinder 4. Symptoms were random misfires, but typically when I went above 3000 rpm and came down to an idle, then it would misfire. Take the car out, get it nice and warm, cruise at 4000 rpm and directly come down to an idle and stop. Wait and see if it misfires. Do it a couple times and see if you can produce it. Basically what might be happening is that the lifter gets stuck in high lift, creating a mixture imbalance for idle conditions and throws the misfire code. Give it a shot and see if you can replicate the symptoms. Also the lifter issue occurred in my car at 34,000 miles, during the winter, possibly another culprit? Good luck!

I'd say the cylinder is failing. Performing a running compression test is a good way to find this.

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The car parts store didn't have Deoxit. I got QD Electronic Cleaner, which is made for contacts and is supposed to dry quickly (QD) and completely. I unplugged the two X59 connectors, sprayed both ends, let them dry for ten minutes, plugged them back in, and started the car. It ran really rough and the coolant temperature sensor was no longer connected, giving me a red light on the coolant temperature gauge. I unplugged both connectors, aimed a hot blow dryer at them for a few minutes and tried again. Same problem. I ran the car for ten minutes idling and it started running smoother, but the temperature sensor still has a bad connection. Inspecting both ends of both connectors, I don't see anything unusual. I'm trying to find which wire the coolant temperature sensor is now to see what I messed up. I think the car is driveable right now and I need it as it's my daily driver!

Not familiar with the product you used. I specified Deoxit because it's special and it's tried and true. Has to be Deoxit, available at Radioshack.

After driving the car for 20 minutes, the connection to the thermostat returned. The fact that spraying on a cleaner and reconnecting caused a bad connection suggests a reliability issue with the X59 connectors. I got some Deoxit from Radio Shack today. I'll try it soon.

Kirt, We spoke a couple of weeks ago about your misfire problem. You said it started about 2 months before, why contact us 2 months later after driving with this problem all this time? You said it's your daily driver. If the engine misfires and it's intermittent it's not a good idea to drive the car until problem is identified and fixed. Driving like this could have already caused internal damage. We have instructed you on what to do and how to look for a problem, since you are not "buying" what we advised you maybe you should have just shipped the car to us and have us look for the problem? You said you have replaced 1 sparkplug and 1 ignition coil, after that your car ran without problem for 2 weeks. This indicates it's not a mechanical problem. If the problem comes back and you kept on driving like that something inside might have already got damaged. Any good mechanic should be able to identify what is causing this problem within 2 hours tops. But I guess instead of directly contacting us when you have a problem you prefer to wait 2 months and spend money on local mechanics. Forum is not going to diagnose your problem, a good mechanic needs to see your car in person and then he will be able to tell you what the problem is. Do you diagnose your illness online when you have a health problem or do you go to a specialist? It's the same thing in this case. I could tell you what the problem is right away, but I'd have to see the car in person. I am here to help my customers, but if they don't let me know what is going on, drive for 2 months with a problem it's not the way to solve any issues. These engines get damaged very easily, especially when something is wrong. Everyone knows driving a car with such problem is not a good idea.

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WOW Here you are Scolding the OP and then you expect him to ship the car to you so you can try to fix it? I have the same problem I have read most of the posts when it comes to misfire incidents. I have done what I can in my garage just like the OP has, I have taken my car to 1 local Porsche dealer, several Indy mechanics and I still have the same problem, The misfire doesn't happen as often (maybe once every 2-3 months)anymore since I took an old timers advise that only cost me 4.99 at the local autozone. To the OP Good Luck !!!!

I've had this, it varied between misfiring on one or more cylinders. Short answer, replace all spark plugs and coils. Also a couple of weeks later a friend with the M97.2 engine had the same. We resolved both with the same remedy.

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This is exactly what I told my customer to do. Instead of doing what I advised he went to the forum...

Sucks, doesn't it? Get used to it, been dealing with that since 1995. Back then it was newsgroups, toady its forums.

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The engine builder also suggested doing this. My problem is a little different in that it's cylinder 1 giving me 99% of the misfires. I didn't see how changing the coils and plugs on cylinders 2-6 would fix misfires on cylinder 1, but a few days ago I tried this. It turned out that the coils had not been replaced when the engine was rebuilt. After installing the new coils and plugs on the left bank (cylinders 1-3), I ran the engine for ten seconds before putting everything back together. It ran nice and smoothly. Great! Maybe the problem was solved! After putting on the new coils and plugs on the right bank, it also ran smoothly. After putting everything back together, it ran very roughly. Jiggling the wiring going to the cylinder 1 coil did not improve things. The Durametric showed mostly cylinder 1 misfires, with a few more on cylinder 5. After a while the misfire counting stopped, but the engine was still running rough and "rough running" on the Durametric, as measuring in rotational acceleration, was still very different for cylinder 1 compared to the others. After warming up, the rough running went away. I've seen this same pattern intermittently for a week now: Sometimes it runs roughly when cold, then gets better after warm up. Sometimes it's fine when cold, usually when I have my Durametric hooked up to see the misfires.

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Even more circumstantial evidence to replace the MAF...

Hi Flat6 Mine is a little different too, the only misfire I get is cyl #2 NO other cyls. If I baby the car the code P0302 will not come on for weeks, but the moment I spin the tires or punch it hard from a dead stop the code P0302 will come on instantly. I have done a leak test, smoke test, changed coil and spark plug, new injector. Im running out of options so with that being said would this BDMEM 7.8 would that fix the problem and if it does where can I purchase it ? also lately ive been getting P0430 code but it only does it once in a blue moon when I fill up the tank. when I get the codes I erase them with the scan-tool. and then it never comes on again until the next fill up.

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But Jake, how would a MAF problem only affect one cylinder?

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Because other things come into the equation, like chamber filling thats impacted by intake characteristics. We'd all like to think that every cylinder sees the same volume and velocity of charge air, but it does not. The flow bench proves this, and pitot tubes along the intake tract further substantiate the values. Also, if you continue to have an issue with a single cylinder, consider mechanical issues that can lead to this, even if the engine runs perfectly otherwise, and is symptomless. Things like non- conventional bore scope evaluations, coupled to running compression tests can find these issues. Typical diagnostics won't, and neither will a "technician" that believes his scan tool is some form of electronic God. The mind must be engaged, and the engine fully understood to find some of these issues.

Re the MAF, just unplug it and see if the idle smooths out. If it does, it points strongly to a bad MAF. You can also monitor the MAF values (g/s) and voltage at warm idle. Should read ~1.3v and 14~15kg/hr when no accessories are on and idle @~700rpm.

Here are four graphs over two minutes of running just after turning on the cold engine. My Durametric software and hardware take almost a minute start taking readings, so the initial time was not recorded. Graphs and comments: * Engine speed * MAF, coolant temperature, oil temperature * Misfires. Where you can't see a line, the value is zero. You can see that the misfires are on cylinder 1, at 400 to 500 (I'm guessing that this is per minute). Cylinder 5 reads 1 misfire from 0 to 17 seconds. * Rough running. Even after the DME stops reporting misfires, I still feel the engine running rough. The rotational acceleration for cylinder 1 is way different than for the other cylinders on this graph.

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Those are good tests, BUT there are times when a MAF will test perfectly, but still have an issue during certain ranges of operation can give an issue. It takes very little enrichment differential to create a misfire. The operation voltage is also a good test, but I have had them test perfectly and still be the culprit. I have hundreds of good cool packs.. I should give some to you guys so you can ship them to one another for evaluation purposes. That keeps people from having to buy new stuff just to test a theory.

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I tried this two months ago, the first time it ran rough and the check engine light turned on. Unplugging the MAF did not cure it. I'll try this again soon.

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Agreed, especially the OP said the fault is intermittent. I was hoping the OP could catch the bad MAF in the act. BTW, the Bosch MAFs are quite reasonably priced these days. OP, I think this is the correct one but please verify on your own Amazon.com: Bosch 0280218055 Air Mass Sensor: Automotive Amazon.com: Bosch 0280218055 Air Mass Sensor: Automotive

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That matches the Porsche part number (986-626-125-01) at Pelican Parts. I like getting my parts from a local (California) company, but they're selling the Bosch MAF sensor for a lot more. And they have Bremi brand for less. This morning the engine is running smoothly (intermittent problem), so unplugging the MAF sensor won't tell us anything at this time.

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Whatever you do, please only use the Bosch or genuine MAF. Amazon is great. Got my Bosch O2 sensor from them for $100 or so and it's made in Germany.

Here are three graphs over 28 minutes of running starting with a cool engine. There were zero misfires, so there is no misfire graph. Graphs and comments: * Engine speed * MAF, coolant temperature, oil temperature * Rough running. This is on the same Y scale as my earlier post. Note how the vast majority of the accelerations here running smooth are in a tight window of -5 to +5 rev/s^2, compared to -10 to +30 when running rough.

You can look up the part number on the Bosch part finder (boschautoparts.com/VehiclePartFinder/Pages/VehiclePartFinder.aspx) and search for the part number on Amazon. When I last bought a MAF (early 2013), going this route saved $350 over buying from the Porsche parts counter...

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Back on the X59 connectors, I tried the following: * Unplugged them and plugged them back in. The problem with the coolant temperature sensor not being connected recurred. * I sprayed on the Deoxit as instructed, made the connection, and wiggled the connector to try to scrub off any oxidation, then sprayed a little more on. The Deoxit goes on as a liquid. I waited 30 minutes for it to dry, but it didn't. I wiped off as much as possible, then remade the connection. The temperature sensor was still not connected. After 15 minutes of driving, the connection to the temperature sensor was remade. The engine is still intermittently running rough.

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The residue is a protectant and it's not supposed to dry up so no worries there. Not sure what's the deal with your temp sensor though.

Hi Flat6 or Ahsai Mine is a little different too, the only misfire I get is cyl #2 NO other cyls. If I baby the car the code P0302 will not come on for weeks, but the moment I spin the tires or punch it hard from a dead stop the code P0302 will come on instantly. I have done a leak test, smoke test, changed coil and spark plug, new injector. Im running out of options so with that being said would this BDMEM 7.8 would that fix the problem and if it does where can I purchase it ? also lately ive been getting P0430 code but it only does it once in a blue moon when I fill up the tank. when I get the codes I erase them with the scan-tool. and then it never comes on again until the next fill up.

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Medevack, I was chasing a odd misfire and it turned out to be a leaking seal for the variocam adjuster solenoid. They are cheap, so replace them to eliminate the possibility. http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/...ption=Cam+seal

Cylinder 1 mis-fired on my (now sold) 996.2 was rectified and confirmed as the valve lifters. Thankfully it was done by the previous owner.

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Yes, I remember your case. It sounds like lifters to me but I'm not sure. I think only the variocam test per the service manaul can confirm. I'm not familiar with the BDMEM 7.8. Is it an aftermarket flash? I can't imagine how it could fix a single cylinder misfire. I also rememeber Peter's case of leaking variocam solenoid seals. I still have to understand how air leak into the engine head/crankcase can cause a single cylinder misfire but maybe like Jake said, it's possible when the a/f ratio is not optimal, it could make just one cylinder misfires, or at least affecting one cylinder much more prominently. P0430 is bank2 catalytic efficiency below limit so it's likely your bank 2 cat going bad/element loose. You can monitor the four O2 sensor voltage in real-time when driving to troubleshoot it.

Until you get the X59 issue worked out, you can have all sorts of phantom issues. This is especially true with the coolant temp sensor, as the engine looks to CLT for most everything of significance. With a bad connection there, leading to no gauge signal, you could have all sorts of issues.

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Following up on Jake's suggestion that the MAF sensor could be a off a little, I got a new Bosch MAF sensor (thanks to Ahsai for pointing out the cheapest one on Amazon). I ran a warm-up cycle from cold with the old sensor, then a few days later with the new sensor. At the cold start, both times the engine speed was 1100 rpm (see graphs below; I reved it a few times to see if anything unusual would happen). Both times there were a small number of misfires recorded by the Durametric (but no CEL) and the engine felt rough for the first minute or so. The roughness was confirmed by the Durmatric's "rough running" rotational acceleration measurement of up to +/- 8 rev/s^2 (see bottom graphs). During this time, the engine speed remained constant, but the measured mass air flow rate slowly dropped. This is expected because the volume flow rate is constant (0.5 X engine speed X displacement) and the air temperature is slowly rising, making the air less dense, so the mass flow rate falls. Both times, when the coolant warmed to about 26 C, the engine suddenly smoothed out. I could feel it and the rough running measurement showed it, dropping to +/- 2 rev/s^2. Later, when the coolant reached about 33 C, the engine speed dropped to 700 rpm. The old and new MAF sensors give about the same flow reading at the cold start (39 kg/hr), and also when the engine speed dropped to 700 rpm (19-20 kg/hr). I can't see that the new MAF sensor changed anything.

Did you perform a handover after changing the MAF? Again, everything references CLT, until you work that issue out, and have a stable reading thats accurate, you'll be wasting a lot of time. CLT impacts everything with these engines as it dictates which MAPS the engine is referencing constantly.

Very nice plots. A few observations: 1) You have misfires on almost all cylinders during cold start. Looks like #5 is the worst. That means you need to trace things that are common to both banks 2) Not clear when close loop happens but it looks like the engine runs smoothly once it enters close loop a/f control. To confirm, log the 4 O2 sensor voltage readings during cold start. Precat sensor voltage will start to swing once the system enters close loop 3) It does not appear your cyl #1 has mechanical problem since all cylinders smooth out 4) Appears to me that the a/f is wrong during cold start and before close loop. That points to air leak (e.g., intake or SAI) or extra fuel vapor (e.g., evap purge valve). The O2 reading should give us more clues. From the O2, you could also see the SAI system in action.

How do you initiate a handover without a PST?

I think a simple CEL erase will also reset the DME (so reset all the fuel trim adaptations). That can be done by Durametric or a generic OBDII scanner.

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If you are giving them away, I'll take 6 of them for a 2004 3.2 I can PM you with shipping address

Lol. same here. I'll take 6. save me tons of cash THANKS JAKE! lol

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Ahsai, that was a good call earlier to look at misfires with the Durametric. That led me to look at rough running on all of the cylinders. i agree that it's not just cylinder 1, but all cylinders, which completely changes my thinking to look not just a cylinder 1, but all six cylinders. That's why I went ahead with the MAF sensor swap.

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Here are the same plots of air flow, temperature, and rough running, plus the four catalytic converter oxygen voltages. The left and right banks are very different when cold. I don't know which side is working properly. It looks like the ECU goes into closed-loop control at 149 seconds, while the engine smooths out at 99 s. At 99 s, all of the voltages have fallen to 0.03 V. The last plot zooms in on the closed-loop control time from 150 to 200 s. The pre-cat voltages are swinging back and forth, while the post-cat voltages are more steady. They do change when I rev the engine.

Your O2 sensor plots look normal to me. Something happened/stopped at 99s to make the engine run smooth. The postcat O2 sensors read 0v after 99s because being behind the cats, it takes them longer to get up to full operating temp. That's probably just a coincidence that when the engine also smooths out around the same time. Attached is a cold start from my engine, which is very similar (diff ambient and 200 cell cats). BTW, have you reset the DME like Jake asked? Porsche-cold-start-SAI-O2-reading (Small).jpg

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I had not reset the ECU for my earlier posts. I just did by telling the Durametric to clear the error codes (of which there were none). I retook the same data, which is below. The engine had not fully cooled down during the 5+ hours it was off. This shows up in the coolant temperature ("engine temperature") being a little warmer than the oil temperature. I frequently cannot get the Durametric software to connect to the ECU right away, so the engine was running for about 40 seconds before I could start logging data.

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I think that the coolant temperature reading is OK now. It matches the oil temperature when the engine is cold, which you can see on the earlier temperature vs. time plots that I posted. It seems to be stable when I'm logging data and when I'm driving. It just repeatably had a bad connection when I unplugged and replugged the X59 connectors.

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And finally to your 4th points. * Is there an easy way to check for air leaks? When I was installing a new fuel injector, my oil filler tube broke and I put it back together with a bike inner tube and hose clamps for easy disassembly in the future. That could be leaking. * How can I diagnose the evap purge valve? And what is it supposed to do?

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You're telling us this now after 56 posts?! To test air leaks, you can use a smoke machine, or just carefully spray carb cleaner onto the areas in question to see if the idle changes. The evap purge valve allows the fuel vapor captured in the carbon canister to be sucked into the throttle to burn as fuel and it's controlled by a PWM signal from the DME. The DME takes this into account when computing the correct injection pulse. If the valve is sticky/leaking, it will upset the a/f ratio. You can remove the valve and vacuum test it. You should able to blow through it if you apply 9v power to it. I remember one case like yours but the misfires only happen at cold start. It was because one of the injectors is leaking so extra fuel after engine shut off causes the engine to stumble upon cold start. However, I think you said before your rough idle could also happen at warm start (i.e., restart not long after shut down)?

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The oil filler tube was fine when the misfires started. I broke it in the process of replacing one fuel injector. It's not a great design, as the filler tube is in the way when the air-filter box is removed.

Btw, it's a good idea to drive the car for a few days for the engine to adapt to the new MAF. Things may improve.

My Bentley 996 manual (p. 24-6) has instructions for DME adaption for ME 7.2 (996.1) and ME 7.8 (996.2). I don't think that just clearing the error codes earlier fully reset the ECU. * It doesn't say to power cycle the ECU, but gives instructions for if the ECU is power-cycled. I removed fuse B8 for 30 seconds to remove the power to the ECU. * Conditions: -Vehicle is stationary -Battery voltage is 10 to 16 V -Engine temperature is 5 to 100 degrees C -Intake air temperature is 10 to 100 degrees C * Switch the ignition to on without starting the engine. Wait for 60 seconds. * Switch the ignition off for at least 10 seconds. I did this.

After starting the DME adaption, I ran the engine to look for vacuum leaks (which may not be the best thing to do during DME adaption). I squeezed all of the vacuum hoses I could find to see if there was a change in the engine speed. No changes. I sprayed propane from an unlit torch to all of the vacuum junctions and hoses I could see. No changes. I then sprayed the aforementioned QD Cleaner, which I confirmed burns well, to all of the vacuum junctions and hoses I could see. No changes. Twice I unscrewed the oil filler cap and the engine immediately ran rough, as seen the in plots below. Once I pulled out the oil dipstick and to my surprise, there was no observable change in the engine running. The seal to the tube seems fine. I have more work to do in inspecting for vacuum leaks, such as looking at the canister purge valve. Does anyone know what the measured vacuum level should be when idling?

Two more cold starts: * February 21: Smooth running. Problem fixed? * February 22: Same roughness for about two minutes at the start. Not fixed; it's still intermittent. Interesting observation: The Durametric reports two different MAF readings: (1) "Mass air flow (HFM)" in units of kg/hr. This is what I had been plotting previously. These values are whole numbers (e.g., 19, 20, 21). (2) "Mass air flow," also in units of kg/hr. These values have resolution to 0.1 kg/hr (e.g., 19.0, 19.1, 19.2). This makes the curve smoother. When the engine smooths out, there is a little blip in the second MAF reading (violet curve below), but not in the first (blue curve below) There is, however, a small downward step in the first MAF curve at this time. Does anyone know the difference in the two MAF readings?

Hi folks Couple of years ago I had a misfire on my '99 3.4. After lots of dead ends the mechanic eventually noticed a burning electrical smell near the ECU box in the rear seat. When he opened the ECU part of it was melted inside probably due to some kind of short. He's a very popular Porsche specialist and had never seen anything like it before. The part of the ECU that controlled the spark to cylinder 1 was damaged causing the misfire. New ECU was easy to find but getting the software for a manual 3.4 wasn't so easy. Has run perfectly ever since. Might not be your problem but worth a check (though I think opening up the ECU isn't so easy without a special tool). Hope you get it fixed.

Which brings us back to this: July 2015, 89 kmi: I was unable to get a standard Porsche X51 ECU flash, so I got one for the 996.2 X51 from Evolution Motorsports. I've noticed some hydrogen sulfide smell when I floor it and rev it up to 7000 rpm. I suspect that the flash results in a little too much fuel input at high revs, possible damaging the catalytic converters. Have you considered that maybe the ECU flash is either incorrect, or corrupt?

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Fuel is cat food. They love fuel.

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After a day of smooth running, the misfires returned when hot. I was able to force the engine to go from running smoothly to misfiring by revving it up to 7000 rpm while at a stop. When the engine returned to idle, the misfires felt severe. I captured the smoothness before and after in the graphs below. The middle graph below shows that the ECU was not counting misfires when revved up, but did when the engine returned to idle. The bottom graph shows the left and right cat O2 sensors before the cats (blue and green). Under normal operation, these voltages swing up and down every few seconds. When rough, the bank 2 pre-cat O2 sensor stays low, while the bank 1 pre-cat O2 sensor bounces around, but now smoothly as below. The same graph also shows the left and right O2 sensor after the cats (red and violet). During smooth running, these are both nearly constant near 0.7 V. Under rough running, the bank 1 post-cat sensor reads a little high, while the bank 2 sensor is at ~0.05 V--way lower than it should be. I'm not sure whether this is from a stuck valve lifter or a problem with one of the catalytic converters affecting the quantity of fuel that ECU says to inject.

"After a day of smooth running, the misfires returned when hot. I was able to force the engine to go from running smoothly to misfiring by revving it up to 7000 rpm while at a stop." Wow, I really cannot believe what I'm reading. You revved your engine up to 7000 rpms while at a stop? You're lucky you didn't have to pick up pieces of rods from the ground...If you break your engine please don't write later that I did something wrong. I told you to find a good mechanic who will be able to identify the problem instead of trying to kill your engine doing it yourself. It's different when you drive and are in gear and different when stopped and revving your engine to 7000 rpms. You can damage your motor like that and later you will blame me... After all this time if it was a stuck valve lifter (which usually doesn't go away and come back for such a long time) your engine would have already broke down. What you're doing now driving it everyday is slowly damaging your engine while trying to "identify the issue". Clearly you have no experience and you should seriously find a specialized shop which knows what to do and how to identify the problem. You have a problem which is not related to the engine, but you will create a mechanical problem (if it hasn't happened already) by driving like this.

Quotes source posts: 13046897, 13046897, 13046897, 13046897, 13046897, 13046897

Martin and Agnes: Thanks for your helpful posts. I have some questions. What is the problem here? The engine was fully warmed up and as you can see, the measured temperature did not change during revving. I revved it up to 6800 rpm; redline is ~7200 rpm. The time at high revs was less than 10 seconds. Dyno runs are done every day all over the world on stationary cars with high revving for much longer times. Both Macster and ChicagoSpeed996 suggested that the Variocam Plus could be stuck in high lift mode. Also, I still have the tick-tick-tick sound at the same frequency as the camshaft rotation. I hear it much of the time (and it does not correlate with rough running). Three out of three mechanics surveyed say this sound is a sticky valve lifter. This is bad. How am I slowly damaging my engine? Did you notice that this is an intermittent problem? I have to run it to see the problem. Which shop near San Jose, California is this? As I said earlier, I don't trust the dealer. I've talked to the indy who installed the motor and he can't think of anything more to look at than what already done. There have been several posts about similar problems that other drivers had that took many different shops and a lot of money to nothing. It may or may not be related to something inside of the engine. I hope it's not. But simply declaring "it's not related to the engine" doesn't make it true. And because it's intermittent doesn't "prove" it's not related to the engine internals. How?

Customer relations at it's finest. DrMEMS.....sorry for the current and future pain.

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You might want to watch if our 2x4's are straight instead of "servicing" my customers. You should leave more complicated stuff to the wiser people.

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revving an unloaded motor that fast can and will damage a motor. Running an engine to redline loaded is fine. You can do the research yourself if you wish, but rest assured that doing that is unhealthy to a motor.

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That's the first time I've heard that, but there's plenty for me to learn. Curiously enough, during "Porsche Launch Control," the engine revs up to 6500 rpm while the car is stationary. See http://www.porscheownersmanuals.com/...carrera/6/155/

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Weve gone OT here, but that is a 2012 motor that was designed with launch control in mind. That is apples and oranges.

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And I wish I had one of those engines instead of the M96!

[QUOTE=DrMEMS;13047488]"Martin and Agnes: Thanks for your helpful posts. I have some questions. What is the problem here? The engine was fully warmed up and as you can see, the measured temperature did not change during revving. I revved it up to 6800 rpm; redline is ~7200 rpm. The time at high revs was less than 10 seconds. Dyno runs are done every day all over the world on stationary cars with high revving for much longer times. " Every dyno test is done when car is in gear, never in neutral. Engine has to be under load while revving it up, meaning it has to be in gear same as while driving on the road. Factories started to limit engine (especially high rpm motors) revs to 3000-4000 rpms while in neutral to prevent engine from blowing up. You should never rev your motor while in neutral over 3000-4000 rpms max. It so happens that I'm a motorsport professional, I ride engine which turns 14000 rpms. I have seen my competitors revving their motors for no reason. Later effect is their engine blows up. Once again, there is a difference when engine is loaded, meaning in gear, and in neutral. If you would like to diagnose an engine you should always rev it from 1000-2500 max. You can hear and feel what is going on inside the motor, revving it up all the way doesn't give you anything and causes more harm than good. "Both Macster and ChicagoSpeed996 suggested that the Variocam Plus could be stuck in high lift mode. Also, I still have the tick-tick-tick sound at the same frequency as the camshaft rotation. I hear it much of the time (and it does not correlate with rough running). Three out of three mechanics surveyed say this sound is a sticky valve lifter. " If you really suspect stuck valve lifters it's easy to diagnose. Remove the muffler, cam shaft cover on bank one and you can see the lifters. You have easy access to tensioner on b1, remove it, disconnect timing, remove cam shaft and you have lifters in your hands. 4 hours job max for SKILLED PORSCHE TECH including putting it back together. I cannot speak for other shops, I know most of them have no idea about Porsche engines, they call themselves Porsche techs because they can install and remove the engine. You should have called me right away when the problem started instead of waiting 2 months trying to solve this yourself. Has anyone you spoke with ever suggested doing the simplest thing? Starting your motor for 10 seconds in the morning when it's cold and running rough? You have to do this only when it runs rough and manifolds are cold. Then, after 10 sec shut it off and check your exhaust manifold on bank 1 to see if all 3 pipes are the same temperature. Be careful not to burn yourself. Do it and let me know what you find out. Do not hook up any computers, don't do anything else, just do it the way I told you. You have to have the motor running rough and exhaust manifolds have to be cold, otherwise it won't be able to feel the difference. Could you also tell me if you have replaced all ignition coils and all spark plugs? Have you replaced #1 injector? Have you replaced maf sensor like Jake suggested? Let me know about these things and do the test I described above. "This is bad. How am I slowly damaging my engine? Did you notice that this is an intermittent problem? I have to run it to see the problem." Problem diagnosis is not done when engine is in neutral and being revved to 7000 rpms. Like I explained above it can only do damage and doesn't let you hear and feel the engine. If you keep driving the car everyday with this problem you will eventually cause a mechanical problem inside. Never drive the car for 2 months with even intermittent misfire. Simple example, lets assume injector is good, fuel gets into the cylinder, fuel (which doesn't burn) flushes out the oil and in effect cylinder becomes scored. This fuel gets into the oil and everywhere else. If you have a misfire you SHOULD NEVER DRIVE THE CAR UNTIL CAUSE IS IDENTIFIED. This is only 1 example, there are number of things that could be happening inside the motor due to misfire. "Which shop near San Jose, California is this? As I said earlier, I don't trust the dealer. I've talked to the indy who installed the motor and he can't think of anything more to look at than what already done. There have been several posts about similar problems that other drivers had that took many different shops and a lot of money to nothing. " That's all other shops, I know exactly what you mean. This is why you have to go to a specialist when you have a complicated problem, doesn't matter where he is located. "It may or may not be related to something inside of the engine. I hope it's not. But simply declaring "it's not related to the engine" doesn't make it true. And because it's intermittent doesn't "prove" it's not related to the engine internals." Easiest way to find out is to perform the test described above and answer all my previous questions. BTW, picture below shows a 3.8l Carrera s motor and what happens when you drive constantly revving it up. Those motors do not like high revs even under load (in gear).

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Agree 100%, m96 and m97 are made for cruising only This is exactly why I'm in business. It's a ticking bomb, you have to treat it with superior caution and be gentle to it at all times. Even if you maintain it properly and baby your motor, it can still break on you, that's how it's designed.

Nice

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Cold start. Ran 10 s. Engine feels smooth. The pipes on each manifold felt the same to my hand. I applied a thermocouple to each for a more accurate measurement. The pipes for cylinders 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 were 102-103 deg F; cylinder 5 was 99 deg F. The cold roughness is much less severe than the hot roughness I posted about yesterday, so there may be different sources. * Cylinder 1 fuel injector replaced 1/10/2016 at 97,413 mi. Didn't solve misfires. * All six spark plugs and coils replace 2/10/2016 at 97,640 mi. Didn't solve misfires. * MAF sensor replaced 2/17/2016 at 98944 mi. Didn't solve misfires.

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Ok, thanks for the info. It still doesn't tell me anything since engine was running smooth. This test has to be done when engine runs rough, you will have to try to catch it in that moment and then let me know what you find. Just please don't rev the engine any more.

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That's a load of horsesh!t and I'm pretty sure you know it. There are plenty of examples of tracked and non-babied cars out there that are approaching and beyond 100k and still running strong. The motors certainly have some issues that can make your day go to hell quick and with little warning, but they do not need to be treated like they are made of porcelain. It certainly sucks when you roll craps and the motor goes **** up, but the vast majority of 996s have not experienced such failures. I do agree that running the revs up on an unloaded motor when you know that the motor is not healthy is a bad idea.

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Since you have accurate temperature reader you can also do it a different way. When you drive and engine starts to run rough, park the car and leave it running for a few minutes. If it starts to run smooth shut it off, engine has to run rough to get accurate reading. Then measure the temp on all muffler pipes and let me know what you find out.

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Gnat, I have not seen another poorly designed motor in the whole world. It's very complicated compared to other engines, there are too many parts inside which are not very well thought through. Too many things inside are unnecessary, which in effect brake more often. It's too complicated and the result is not adequate to the design. Porsche overcomplicated the design and production not getting anything in return. 89 hp from 1000cc is not impressive. Completely wrong design of ims, timing chains, cylinders (cracking and scoring), etc... I really don't understand what is so positive about these motors. I personally drive a 3.8l Carrera S, 30k miles, have it since very low mileage, never even touched a screw in this car (except for oil changes). I'm afraid to step on a gas in this car. Every time my wife comes back from shopping I listen for cylinder scoring sound. I also have 2 turbos and 1 993 which are a completely different story. Those motors are totally worthy of Porsche cars. I have to get rid of my Carrera S before it blows up because I don't feel like rebuilding my own motor. I would not be surprised if cylinders start to score pretty soon, I only drive it on the street, normal everyday driving nothing extreme. Newest Porsche engines are a lot better because 60% of faults have been eliminated, however, they still have some issues. Porsche is supposed to break, that's how it's designed by marketing and financial departments. New turbo and gt3 are also examples of Porsche's failed design. Same parts, new models, budget cuts but charging fortune for new cars...That's how me, Jake and others will stay in business for a while, but pretty soon it will not be worth it to fix these cars anymore (I mean m96 and m97). Most of you love your cars and probably don't want to hear it but those are the facts. Maybe you'd rather hear me saying those are the best cars in the world and fix them for 30k or more, but I'm not that guy. Don't get me wrong, I love Porsches, especially turbo, I really enjoy driving it but m96 and m97 engines never even had a right to be in those cars.

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You should try the Land Rover Discovery 2 V8 (4.0 or 4.6)...

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I don't know about that, but I agree some poor choices were made that led to some significant and catastrophic flaws. Regardless, however, the majority of the motors are still running strong with the average example countering your "you have to treat it with superior caution and be gentle to it at all times" nonsense. I don't think it's the best motor in the world, but it doesn't need to be treated as you suggested in that post. Saying "you have to treat it with superior caution and be gentle to it at all times" is not remotely based on any facts. I'm sorry you are so paranoid about your own car. Sell it and move on with your life. Seriously. Life is too short to live like that. I know you see the result of these flaws on a regular basis, but you are only seeing a small fraction out of the total number of cars built. They aren't the greatest car in the world, but they are far from the worst as well.

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I have sold quite a few used engines for m96 and m97 and I never give any warranty for them, it's supposed to work after installation, that's it. I can bet you that if you bring any "good running" engine to Jake he would find something wrong with it. With his precise eye I'm sure he would find something failing in each of those motors.

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Of course he would and so would you. I'd be shocked if any competent engine builder could take apart a "healthy" 15 year old motor with 50-150k on it and not find things wrong. The question is if they were actually going to fail any time soon if left otherwise unmolested. Its all a gamble in the end, but the odds show that the cars can be driven "like Porsches" and the majority will not have problems. My only problem with what you've said is your hyperbole about how fragile these cars/motors supposedly are. The actual numbers simply don't bear that out.

Yeah, gnat, my '99 C4 only had 133,000 miles on its engine when a semi-truck tire tread knocked off the oil filter housing on the highway and starved the engine of oil. I'll bet that crappy engine wouldn't have lasted much past 150,000 miles or so before it would've needed a rebuild. I mean, really, if a high performance engine won't last longer than that, the car is a complete piece of ****. Plus, the headlights aren't even round.

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So how would you explain these engines getting cylinder scoring while being driven in winter? How is that not fragile? Any other simple engine runs during winter season or extreme heat and doesn't have this problem. That's just one example, D chunk issues are another one . All other engines are designed similar, except for m96 and m97. Neither engine likes too much revving while being cold. Porsche m96 m97 is especially weak when driven hard while engine is cold. It's mostly due to weak design of cylinders which crack and score all the time. Other engines can tolerate it but not Porsche m96 m97. Newer Porsche motors have improved cylinders which resemble all other commonly used cylinders, they will not crack but will still score.

I, for one, am glad we can finally have a discussion of the relative merits of the 996 in this forum. Finally!

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We've run ours every winter since it was new including plenty of sub-zero starts (no garage) and it shows no symptoms of scoring and a top end scope shows nothing there (obviously there could still be something on the bottom half). A neighbor runs her M97 Boxster every day, only drives it 3 miles to catch the bus, it also lives outside, and she has no issues either. Another neighbor has a 955S and a 986 that he drives regularly and neither of them have had motor issues either. There have also been plenty of others that have no issue even though they run their cars all year long in all kinds of climates. Cold starts are definitely a risk factor, but it's not a death sentence. If the engines were "fragile" there would be a much higher rate of failure than there is. I accept that our motor is probably going to fail at some time in our ownership. I'd also bet on scoring being the most likely reason. I still expect, however, that we'll see plenty of time before that happens. And if not, I'm not going to cry over it. I'll have it fixed and get right back to enjoying it. On the flip side I know a 997.1 owner that feels like you because he has a major issue a few times a year, but he only takes it out between 60 and 80 degrees when it's sunny and puts maybe 1000 miles on it a year. My experience (and those of my local friends) mirror the general consensus which is the opposite of you advise. These cars absolutely do not like being babied. They want to be driven regularly. Your fear mongering is actually encouraging more issues. Again, my only issue is your hyperbole. By all means talk about the issues and what can realistically be done, but drop this fragile crap since the real facts just don't back it up.

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There are as many opinions as people here on this forum. I guess you're arguing with the wrong person, I bet anybody else who fixes Porsche motors for a living will share my point of view. I don't want to go back and forth so please enjoy your car for as long as you can. My 997 is the last m97 car I will own, once I get rid of it there will be no more m96/m97 for me. In the meantime we keep busy rebuilding m96/m97 motors between my both locations, same thing goes for my competitors here in US, those are the facts.

So MB you rebuild M9X motors and don't think using the full RPM rage is a good idea? You must not be to confident in your work.

Not sure but he sure knows 2x4's

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I put the original Porsche flash back on the ECU and the roughness remained the same. I was concerned about too much fuel going to the cylinders at high revs, resulting in unburned fuel passing through to the catalytic converters, causing the hydrogen sulfide smell. I talked to Sam Stone at Evolution Motorsports, who supplied the X51 flash. He said that they run an air-to-fuel ratio of around 12.8 to 13.1:1, which should be reliable and produce the best power. This is less air than in the perfect match of 14.7:1. but it seems to be common (per Wikipedia).

So new coils, plugs, MAF, #1 injector, reverted to stock flash all didn't solve the problem. Is that correct? Can you log rpm, MAF, RKAT, misfire counters, and all 4 O2 sensors for both banks when the roughness occurs?

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That is correct. What is RKAT? Please see the graphs below for the requested plots. The first set of four graphs show the engine speed, rotational acceleration (roughness; below -2 or above +2 feels rough), misfire counter, and the four cat voltages over a 30-second period when the engine was idling (at ~780 rpm) smoothly. I had not done extended high revving at that point. The second set of four graphs show the same thing, but after running at ~5000 rpm for two minutes. This caused the engine to subsequently idle roughly, as seen in the rotational acceleration graph. I have found that the rotational acceleration measurement is a better indication of roughness than the misfire counter, because it allows one to see rough running that is below the threshold for the ECU to report a misfire. The O2 sensor outputs are very different than before.

RKAT is the fuel trim of the engine @ idle, available in Durametric. See here http://www.callasrennsport.com/porsc...m-information/ It tells you whether the DME is adding or pulling fuel at idle. Your 1st set of O2 plots tell me the DME is not doing much a/f control as normally the pre-cat O2 sensor voltage should swing once a second. On the rough running set, which is the cylinder that keeps misfiring? Was it cyl #1? Also which sensor is the last plot that stays high at 0.8x? BTW, it would be nice to have thicker lines on the plots. The legends of the colors are difficult to make out.

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Here are the three plots for rotational acceleration, misfires (per the Porsche algorithm), and cat voltages. The time is now from 775 to 805 seconds, where the engine is idling at ~780 rpm the whole time. I also adjusted the scale for rotation acceleration because cylinder 1 didn't show up on the previous plots. I zoomed in in Excel to get wider traces. Cylinder 1 ran roughest and has all of the counted misfires. For the cat voltages, the red curve that stays high is for the O2 sensor after cat bank 1. Later I'll take more data that shows RKAT/fuel trim. Also, I still haven't had a change to measure the different manifold pipe temperatures as MB had requested.

Was the new injector OE or Bosch? With this p/n 99660612200? The plots are a lot of easier to read now. BTW, please add FRA with RKAT on both banks as they can tell us the whole picture. What I found strange is even during smooth idle, the fuel control does not look normal (those plots in post #97).

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The new MAF sensor was Bosch 0280218055. I will find these outputs on the Durametric and plot them as well.

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How about the new injector #1 part number and brand (I'm aware that you had the problem even before the new injector)?

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The new fuel injector on cylinder 1 is the Bosch 996-606-122-00-M14 from Pelican Parts. The new injector made no difference in the roughness and misfires.

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The engine is still intermittently running roughly. After a cold start, I ran it for about 30 seconds, stopped the engine, the quickly measured the temperature of the three left bank manifold pipes right where they bend about two inches from the engine. I put a thermocouple, held with a forceps, directly against the pipe and waited until the temperature was near its final value (the thermocouple will asymptotically approach a final temperature, which takes minutes). Measured temperatures: Cylinder 1: 74 deg C Cylinder 2: 90 deg C Cylinder 3: 98 deg C I waited about ten minutes and restarted the engine. This time it ran smoothly. All three temperatures were about 90 deg C. I waited about ten minutes again and ran the engine again. This time it ran roughly. Measured temperatures: Cylinder 1: 80 deg C Cylinder 2: 97 deg C Cylinder 3: 91 deg C. When the engine is running roughly, cylinder 1's pipe is definitely cooler than the other two. I wonder if it's not getting enough fuel or air, or not burning the air-fuel mixture completely. Remember that I replaced all of the plug and coils, and the cylinder 1 fuel injector.

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Here is a 2000-second run with RPM, rough running, misfires (only 2 counted) and finally FRA and RKAT for cylinder banks 1 and 2 plotted on the bottom graph. One thing that stands out is that RKAT for the two banks is different, but I don't know what this means. Also, when there was roughness, bank 2's FRA changed a little bit. On this run the all of the idling was smooth.

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Sounds like cylinder 1 has a mechanical issue. Before I swap the simple stuff I always quantify mechanical integrity.

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The FRA and RKAT look normal. RKAT is in % so 1.x % is excellent. FRA should be 1.0 +/- 0.15 or so (don't quote me on this one. It's just typical tolerance). Your FRAs are around 1.05 so they are normal. Slight difference between the 2 banks is normal too. We need to see the same plots (+ O2 voltage) when the engine is runnng rough. Question, when the engine runs smoothly, does it pull strong and feel normal?

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Yes, when it's smooth, it feels strong like it should.

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So if you're such a "specialist" how do you figure it's a mechanical problem with cylinder 1? In your opinion what kind of mechanical problem would this be that comes and goes? You can keep your theories to yourself, you always make simple things complicated. In effect a lot of your potential customers have gone to me or other shops and you loose their business. Just mind your own business because every time you get into mine you loose customers. You should've learned this by now

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This simple test confirms it is indeed a cylinder #1 problem. I've seen many cases where mechanics misdiagnose which cylinder # it is in reality. Sometimes diagnostic computers will show you wrong cyl#, this test just confirms which cylinder we are dealing with. As other people suggested if this was indeed mechanical problem with valve lifters, in this case one of the valves wouldn't close all the way. In example: if it was exhaust valve you would have rich mix of fuel in exhaust and O2 sensor would show you this problem. In case it would be intake valve problem you would have misfires on all cylinders because of the pressure created in the intake and it would backfire, especially with higher rpms you would hear explosions in the intake. I think it's an electrical problem with fuel supply to the #1 injector. My other bet is ignition coil is not getting power all the time.

I had two local mechanics look at the engine. Both listened with a stethoscope and heard excessive noise on the rear end of bank 1 (at cylinder 1). The engine builder offered a complimentary engine repair, but I'd have to ship the car from California to Illinois for about $3000 round trip. Locally removing and reinstalling the engine would cost about $2500. Adding in shipping gets the cost to over $3000 as well. In the end I had the local mechanic who had installed the rebuilt engine do the work. He had to remove the exhaust and drop the engine a little, which didn't quite give him suitable access. After removing the scavenging pump, he was able to get the cam cover off. He said he'll never try doing this job again without first removing the engine (which is what the manuals say to do)! One of the cylinder 1 intake valve lifters (aka cam followers) was stuck so badly that he couldn't budge it by hand. I had him install all 6 new lifters. In the end it cost me $3300 and a 10-day wait. After one drive, (a) it idles smoothly, (b) it doesn't tick-tick-tick when hot, and (c) the sewing-machine-like whine I was hearing is gone (we were concerned that this was the chain, but the chain looked fine). I believe the misfires and rough running are finally fixed@. Now it's time for autocross!

i love your enthusiasm! Get it fixed it so can be destroyed!

Congrats!

That's great news!

I thought the engine builder was in FLA? Not Illinois. My experience was the builder foot the bill for transport when something went wrong.

So, just to clarify, it was a mechanical problem with cylinder 1, correct? (Stuck intake valve lifter)

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No way....its electrical all the way.

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hahahahahahhaha Soooo glad my engine went through the Raby barrel!! It has been a great experience dealing with a true craftsman and his talented crew.

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We are in Florida, if your builder messed something up he should have paid for shipping. In our case it was a mechanical part which got stuck (valve lifter on cylinder #1), it happened 1 year after purchase. Our warranty is for 6 months and during that time repair and shipping cost is fully covered by MB Motorsports. Again, it was a mechanical part which failed and we did not make, not our work which led to the problem. All parts we use in our rebuilds are produced by someone else, by giving 6 months warranty we take a risk. We can warranty our work for much longer than 6 months but not the parts, they can break even when they're new. We have offered a free repair because he is our customer but he would have to ship his car to us. He chose to do it locally.

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That is correct.

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Last year when they did the rebuild they were in Schaumburg, Illinois. I didn't notice that they had moved. Shipping from California to Florida would be even more.

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Mechanical...Electrical...Doesn't matter...P.O. problem...Just a part failed I grok your question!

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A little story about my builder..... A few years back my 3.4 bit the dust during a track weekend. I bought a donor motor without a warranty from my builder. 9000 miles later the motor develops intermix. I contact my builder. He says take the motor out, which I personally did and wait for a truck to take my motor to my builder. My builder repaired the motor (cracked head) and sent it back and I put it back in. The car was not running proper for a month after and my builder sends a truck and trailer to get the car. A 2nd crack was found in the head and 2 weeks later I had the car back. What did my builder charge me? $0.00 as in zip, zero, nada..all shipping and labor was paid for by my builder on a motor that had no warranty. You gave your customer no choice because you made the choice for him.

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[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

And without excuse, or argument. In fact, I was the one who said the car should come back to me. I've repaired an engine 5 years after it was out of warranty, and paid shipping to and from Colorado, and the damage wasn't even our fault; it was the result of a rock slide. Doing the right thing, when no one is looking is what builds character.

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I have personal experience with Jake to back up his statement.

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Our world needs a whole lot more of this.

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In addition, "Doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do" is also ever so important in life. OMHO.

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I treat people the way that I'd like/ expect to be treated if the roles were reversed. Its so rare that we have to help someone with a warranty claim (and certainly this long after warranty was over) that I try my best to suck it up and deal with it when it happens. As long as the person understands the situation, isn't belligerent, and isn't demanding, we will do anything we can to help them. We don't deal with those kinds of people anyway, so our customer base respects us, as much as we respect them. I use the budget that most companies would have for marketing, and keep that in reserve to make any necessary repairs. I've learned that there's no better marketing representative than a pleased customer.

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Yup! That is "customer service" which builds brand/company loyalty from customers. As said above, more of this attitude is needed in the world today! If/when I need engine work done, I know who I'm calling first.

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I think it goes well beyond customer service.. If its limited to a business relationship, thats always one part of this, but we get to know the people we deal with much closer than that.. When you work with someone for a year+ to create an engine thats unique to their car and driving style, you have a chance to really get to know that person. At the end of the day I end up with friends who pay me for something that we love to do, and thats much more than "business". I have had customers invite me into their home, on the other side of the world, and each year I get more Christmas presents from customers, than I do from family... Even my daughter has customers send her cool things, and they've never even met her.

Nice! Not everyone gets to do what they enjoy as a living and gain friends. Best of both worlds! BTW...as KCA pointed out nice "remote" diagnosis on the problem presented in this thread!

Below is a photo showing the two intake valve lifters from cylinder 1. The offending lifter is on the left. If you look closely, you can see that the center is sticking up a little bit above the surrounding metal. It looks to me like the leading and trailing edges have been deformed to be a little wider, causing sticking. When I moved this by hand by pushing on the bottom, sometimes it was easy to push, and sometimes I had to push really hard and it would stick at different heights. The good lifter on the right moved easily. Below is a photo of the bottoms of the lifters.

After a few weeks of driving, I can definitely say that my engine is back to intermittently idling roughly, about 2/3 of the time when cold and 1/3 of the time when warm. I believe that there is a second problem beside the valve lifters. From the Durametric reading, the camshaft deviation on the left bank is running about 6 degrees, while the right bank is near zero. I don't know whether this is enough to cause a rough idle.

Wow, really thought this was resolved. Your bank 1 cam deviation was about -4 degree before this bank 1 work so it's worse after. I think you should bring your car back to the shop and see what they say. Since the bank 1 valve lifters were replaced, they had to retime bank 1. -6 is not too far from triggering the CEL.

Btw, was your engine a used engine or it was a rebuild by MBM?

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From the X51 conversion thread:

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Rebuilt by MB Motorsports. I have had a layer of very fine, black ferrous particles stuck to my magnetic drain plug since the first oil change at 900 miles, and every oil change since then. They said this was normal, but I don't see this on my other, non-Porsche vehicles. I have to wonder whether such particles could help the valve lifter to stick. I haven't figured out anything new yet regarding the rough idling and it hasn't changed. I've gotten two P0430 codes--catalytic converter efficiency low on bank 2 (which is not the bank on which the valve lifters were replaced). When I rev up the engine on the freeway (say 10+ seconds at 4500 rpm) and the top is open, I usually smell hydrogen sulfide, implying that one or both cats are dying. I'll probably get the same Carnewal cat insert replacement as you did, since they seemed to work well for you. My 996 code diagnostic manual from Pelican Parts says for codes P0420 and P0430 to check a valve connected to the charcoal canister. I hope to do that soon. The manual also says that these codes are only given if the oxygen sensors are operating correctly, so I don't think I have a bad oxygen sensor.

Any pic of the mag drain plug? Re P0430, it's most likely the cat itself. The proper diagnostic is to monitor the O2 sensor voltage pattern (I have many threads on Renntech.org on this). Another alternative is CA legal direct fit cats from Magnaflow. Ask "kromdom" here since he just did that and had good results. Also a 5yr warranty. Since your engine has existing issues, I think it will be better not to complicate it further by using the 200-cell sport cats.

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I found that the Magnaflows were the only CARB-approved direct-fit cats and was interested in them. Then I read somewhere on rennlist that the Magnaflows tended to die after about two years of use and that the five-year warranty was tough to use.

It's really a shame your vender left you high and dry on this.

Looks like the vender also has a motor add on ebay but doesn't mention their name. Why wouldn't you mention your company's name? http://www.ebay.com/itm/99-02-Porsch...-/111810816081

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I'm not defending Martin but he did give the OP option to ship the engine back to them, in which case he decided not to but get work done from another mechanic instead. Now you introduce another variable to the mix. It might've been just that ad that was left out accidentally as he does mention his business name in other products he's selling including another engine. http://www.ebay.com/itm/99-01-Porsch...wAAOSwZ8ZXC833

Sneaky Pete, why don't you defend your guru in the other tread? After my last post i don't see any responses. In case you're not aware it's the one titled "2004 996 was told engine needed rebuild-help". I caught him lying about his bad work and now he's hiding under a rock not knowing what to say. Maybe you could advocate for him? BTW, I could go with 4th name change just for the heck of it to give you something to yap about. I have to repeat again mind your own business and stick to construction and 2x4's. Don't worry about my business, only thing you should be worried about is how to make another dollar to pay off your credit cards. Vender is spelled vendor btw.

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Ouch. When I see your posts why do I think of this?

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Those are some wild and crazy guys.

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Ya, that's because nobody really cares. Move on, everyone else has. or this....

What are you talking about, cousin?

Or this

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It's funny that you mention SNL characters because our other resident vendor("your guru") reminds me of Stuart Smalley. "I'm smart enough, my engines are good enough...and doggone it people like me(I have the poll to prove it)...and if they didn't I would take my ball and go home."

[quote=DreamCarrera]It's funny that you mention SNL characters because our other resident vendor("your guru") reminds me of Stuart Smalley. quote] Fair enough....we all have opinions.

Over the weekend I installed new drop links to cure the low-speed clunking over speed bumps and such. As long as the right front wheel was off, I pulled back the fender liner to look at the carbon canister and emission system. Using my Durametric, I exercised the fuel evaporative valve (which I think is the same as the EVAP canister purge valve in the Porsche diagnosis), which is the little valve that hangs off of the alternator in the engine compartment. It made little clicks on and off as the Porsche troubleshooting guide says it should for Code P0430, so it's probably OK. I did the same for the charcoal filter shutoff valve , which is at the top of the wheel well, usually covered by the fender liner. It made satisfying clicks on and off, so it's probably OK as well. Today I drove starting from cold for half an hour with the Durametric monitoring the ECU. I felt that it was running roughly. The Durametric showed a little rough running and a few misfires during the first minute (see graphs below). After 25 minutes I let the car idle for a while. It felt a little rough and a door panel rattled slightly (where the dealer didn't reassemble door correctly). The Duramtric, however, showed no roughness or misfires (see graphs below). Maybe I'm just overly sensitive after all that the engine has been through. The bank 1 camshaft deviation is still at 6 degrees, while bank 2 is at 0 degrees. I don't know whether replacing the bank 1 chain tensioner will solve this problem.

The indie that installed the new bank 1 valve lifters said that everything was good with the Porsche timing tool, so bank 1 should not have a camshaft deviation of 6 degrees. He suggested that maybe a sprocket that attaches to the intermediate shaft has slipped a little. He said that this is common and that LN Engineering prevents it by adding a few spot welds to hold the shaft and the various sprockets in place. Other 996s he has done similar work on come out with about 0 degrees of camshaft deviation.

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Incorrect. The cam deviations are measured by the hall sensor and its reluctor wheel on the intake camshaft. The IMS has nothing to do with this if the timing has been set. Any slippage in the IMS would have been corrected with the setting of the cam timing. What he didn't do was use the proper pre- tensioner tool, or pump up the hydraulic tensioner before setting timing. Classic.....

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Dang. And he took your class, so he should have known this. Is there anything I can do without removing the cam cover to get the deviation back to where it belongs?

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"You can lead a human to knowledge, but you can't make them think" First of all, the Porsche allowable spec for cam timing, is 6 degrees. Secondly, The cam cover can stay on to set timing. Pull the scavenge pump, and the camshaft end plugs, and timing is a breeze. He may not have turned the engine enough after he set timing, to ensure that it was still set. I turn the engine at least 7 times after setting timing, then I check the fit of the tools again. It is often out of spec after checking it, and must be corrected. We do go over this in the class, and just did it this past Saturday, in the enthusiast class. The tensioner being fully pumped up is a requirement; else cam timing will be perfect on the bench, but incorrect once oil pressure hits the tensioners.

Yes, I can confirm in the m96 engine rebuild class, we spent the whole morning learning how to time the m96, both the 3-chain and 5-chain versions. Both Tony and Jake made a point of rotating the engine many times and recheck timing. We used the Porsche special tool (mechanical spring loaded tensioners) in class though.

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Can the Porsche timing tool fit into the engine with the engine still in the car, maybe dropped down a few inches in the rear?

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I've never tried it but I think the bigger challenge is how to loosen the big variocam actuator bolt on the intake cam. I think the rear frame is in the way. Even with the engine out, I needed an impact gun to loosen that bolt. I think you may have a chance if you can lower the whole engine/trans by a few inches passed the rear cross beam (with the cross beam removed).

From https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ld-help-7.html by MB Motorsports: 4)FSI has 1 year warranty for parts and labor, price 40% higher than MB. We also offer 1 year warranty for parts and labor , price is 40% cheaper than FSI. Hmm. I started having valve lifter trouble at 6.5 months. I would have had to pay thousands and thousands of dollars in shipping to get my car to MB Motorsports in Florida. I would like to have the money I spent at my local German car shop refunded.

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Just to be clear (since I have received a PM asking) Drmems was not my customer. If he was I would have paid the shipping (both ways) for him and took care of it. For the record.

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Right. I got my rebuilt from MB Motorsports. I figured that they were good enough, having rebuilt Porsche engines for a long time. After 6.5 months, a valve lifter started to stick. I can't tell whether they had been replaced during rebuilding or not because they have told me both. They have a supplier that sells the lifters for something like $30, which is a fraction of the price everywhere else, which makes me wonder whether they use Porsche brand lifters. I wish that I had the service that Jake has provided to his customers. When I got the rebuilt M96 engine, it was the fastest affordable option I could find. Jake has a long waiting list.

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Fast isn't what we are known for... One reason it's not fast is because we take the proper time, but also because there's a backlog of folks waiting for what isn't the fastest. They know that we stand behind it, too, even outside of warranty. Cheap, fast, or reliable. Choose ONE. The most expensive Porsche engine you can find has the cheapest price. It just sucks that people have to learn this from first hand experience. That said, what local shop fixed this for you, DrMems?

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That guy is a hack and a dirt ball. He's the jackass that used to call his company Porscheland when he was in the Chicago suburbs. After Porsche sent him a cease & dismiss letter, dipstick changed his name to Forscheland. All the while, using Porsche's colors and font on his web site. I can't imagine he's ever taken a class by Jake.

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William Sverderlov at Bay Area Motor Works in Campbell, California. Last year when I was looking for a rebuilder you mentioned that he had taken your class. He removed the original engine, shipped it to MB, then installed the rebuilt engine. When I had the sticking cylinder 1 valve lifter, he replaced all of the lifters on bank 1.

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For the 3.6 engines, the lifters are different for intake and exhaust. The intake lifters (the ones you replaced) are very expensive at ~$140 each (OEM not available afaik). The exhaust lifters are much cheaper at about $30 each from INA (OEM) so most likely those were what mbm replaced. Your intake lifters end with .22 and the latest is .25 so my guess is those were the original lifters. Most rebuild will reuse the original intake lifters if they are ok due to cost ($1,700 for 12 of them). But of course there're always risks when reusing components.

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That is very interesting. William and I were wondering how to figure that out.

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You mean how I figured it out? You posted pics of your lifters in post #133.

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No, the .22 vs. .25 in the part number. Part of the reason I post lots of photos is that someone can use them to figure out details, even for different topics.

If you google your .22 part number, .25 will show up as the latest part that supercedes the .22. A more direct way is to look up the intake valve lifter, part #6 here http://www.autoatlanta.com/porsche-p...section=103-11 I'm rebuilding an identical 3.6 right now so I'm quite familiar with these parts.

Well now isn't this getting interesting. It appears as MB is re-using some parts in his builds. I guess at that price point one would do that.

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And if you're a thief.

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You my friend seem to be a master of baiting.

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Not trying to but I'm thinking the facts that are surfacing are quite revealing.

Overall, Agnes and Martin at MB were pretty good to work with during the purchase. They helped source the X51 intake headers and other parts needed for the X51 upgrade. At this point, however, I'm getting madder and madder now that I'm having trouble a year after the rebuild. I wish that they'd replaced the intake valve lifters during the rebuild. And it's still not right, with 6 degrees bank 1 camshaft deviation (after replacing the intake valve lifters) and rough idling. Now I'd say it's 3/4 of the time after engine has warmed up.

Have you tried the following? - clean the throttle body and the MAF - do an e-gas recalibration - check condition of the engine mounts - read fuel trims (RKAT and FRAU)...just to see if they are healthy and if there's intake air leak.

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* I put in a new MAF a few months ago and nothing changed (roughness or air-flow readings), so I believe that both the old and new MAFs are good. * I will clean the throttle body. Is carburetor cleaner recommended? * How do I do an e-gas recalibration? * When I put in a new fuel injector a few months ago, the engine mounts seemed fine. The mechanic at BAMW didn't mention anything when he lowered the engine to replace the valve lifters, and he does mention if anything appears amiss. The rough idling is intermittent. * I think I have recent RKAT and FRAU readings. I'll post those and you can tell me if they're good.

There's special CRC throttle body cleaner available at any auto parts store as some throttle body has special coating that regular cleaner will remove. Not sure our throttle body has such coating but better be safe than sorry. To do e-gas recalibration, just leave the key to the last position before crank for 1 minute with your foot off the gas pedal. Then remove key and wait for 10s and you're done. The intermittent nature makes it difficult to diagnose but you may want to monitor the sensor values (e.g., MAF, O2 sensor and cam deviation, misfires) in real-time when driving and see if anything looks very different when the rough idling occurs.

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Results so far: * E-gas recalibration: I could hear the butterfly valve moving. No change. * Cleaned with CRC brand throttle-body cleaner and a new microfiber towel. The TB was pretty clean to start with. I got a little black coating off onto the towel. The black plastic air intake looked fine. I then recalibrated the e-gas again. After a hard start, no change in two minutes of idling.

I can see everyone here has expressed their opinion. I will start with Ahsai, I can tell by your posts in this tread and others that you are a very smart guy, professional, knowledgeable and always on point. At the same time you don't make a big deal out of it, I like those traits in people. This is actually how I imagined owner of Flat Six before I got to know him a little better on the forums. Jake, charging 25k for rebuild you should not only pay for shipping both ways but pay for shipping both ways for another 10 years. Kirt paid 10k for his rebuilt long block with 6 months warranty. Sneaky pete, I know you're only waiting to hear about my engine failing so you can feed off of it. I will have to disappoint you, I've rebuilt a lot of engines which are still going strong! On Average we have 2-3 engines leave our shop per month between our 2 locations. Lex van, you're hard to argue with because you need a psychiatric specialist. You've been hating me and my business for few years now and you've been told by other members to go take care of your wife or something so you maybe become less frustrated. Be careful what you say and what you call other people, no one is anonymous. If you think you can sit behind your computer and call people whatever you like, think again! This is your final warning. Kirt, I'm not going to lie, we deal with a lot of different people. Many customers contact us with lots of questions even not related to their engine. We always stand by our work and always try to help everyone whenever they have a problem. You did not contact us immediately when you had first signs of trouble. You drove your car for 2 months with misfires and instead went to the forum to solve your problems. Your warranty was for 6 months, that is what we have explained to you at the time of purchase. We went over it in details explaining that your original core had low miles and original cases (not resleeved). I couldn't give more than 6 months warranty for non-resleeved original cylinders. For a while now we've been offering longer 1 year warranty because all cylinders are always resleeved. After your engine was installed you had a problem with temperature going up and down. There was no coolant circulation in the system, and we have advised you not to drive like this. You kept driving everyday to work, calling us while at work to help you bleed the coolant system. This is exactly why we always prefer to install our own engines. Your car wouldn't ever leave our shop if the coolant system was not bled properly and engine temperature was going up and down. Driving in such conditions causes internal damage and you could have helped the valve lifters to get scored while they expanded in high temp. I didn't see you mention this on the forum before? It's always easiest to blame MB Motorsports for not replacing the parts. I do have my own supplier in Europe, I don't have to pay the middle men who only make money on mark up. Ahsai, you shipped your cases to LN. Do you think they do it in house? No, they send it off to a different company, later put their logo on it and make money on mark up. I avoid this scenario, this is why Kirt paid $10,000 for my engine instead of $25k at FSI. The truth is I get more people calling me every month and our waiting period stretches because of that. Kirt, no wonder you 're still having problems with your engine. You've been to too many shops trying to solve your problem, I won't be surprised if your engine has serious failure in the future after all this and revving it up to 7000rpms in neutral. I have offered you help, I said if it's something inside the long block I would cover the repair if you ship your car to me. At that time you spoke with Agnes it was almost 1 year after your purchase, your warranty was over 6 months after purchase. You chose to go elsewhere. Right now please don't expect me to help you after you chose to go somewhere else and they didn't do the job right or didn't take care of the problem. Driving with a problem for 2 months and later going to the forum to publicly talk about your engine problems before I even hear about it is not the way to solve any issues. It doesn't work this way. Now you're trying to force me to help you? That's not how you ask for help.

Picture from engine rebuild process, do you see the new lifters?

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Is that a picture of a block you're currently working on?

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I had dismissed this earlier, but it is possible they are worn. How does one check the condition of the engine mounts?

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Thanks for your detailed reply. You forgot that I told you that after I got a Durametric reader, it turned out that the engine temperature was always OK: The gauge on my dashboard was reading higher than it did with the original engine, but the Durametric showed normal temperature readings. Also, I said that the coolant circulation was OK: when I reached under the front of the car and felt a cool radiator, it was the air-conditioning condenser (radiator), rather than the coolant radiator, which sits behind A/C radiator. When I felt the radiator hoses, it was OK. To summarize: the engine was never running too hot, so there could be no damage from running hot. When one cylinder is producing misfires, there are several things to check. The most likely problem, and the easiest to fix, is poor ignition caused by an old spark plug or coil. This was the first thing that you told me to change. Well, that's exactly what I had done a month earlier and the misfires stopped for a month. You also told me to replace all of the plugs and coils. I did and this did not improve the intermittent misfires. You told me to swap the chain tensioners and camshaft position sensor. I didn't think this would do anything, so I didn't try it. You also told me to replace the cylinder 1 fuel injector again, after I had already replaced it. That doesn't make sense. I said that there was a ticking noise that sounded to me and two experienced mechanics like a valve lifter sticking. I suggested that this could be causing misfires and you said no. I said that I didn't buy it and you criticized me for it. You said "In case it would be intake valve problem you would have misfires on all cylinders because of the pressure created in the intake and it would backfire, especially with higher rpms you would hear explosions in the intake." Well, it turned out that it was a sticking cylinder 1 intake valve. You had a great idea about measuring the temperature of each exhaust pipe coming out of the engine and cylinder 1 was indeed cooler when running roughly. You keep saying that I "shouldn't drive the car when it's like this." How the hell does one diagnose an intermittent problem if it's not happening? You criticize me for asking for help on Rennlist. I had talked to you and two other mechanics, I have four books on 996 care and operation, and no one was able to diagnose the problem with certainty (recall that you said several times that the problem is NOT inside the engine). You said (post 19) "You said you have replaced 1 sparkplug and 1 ignition coil, after that your car ran without problem for 2 weeks. This indicates it's not a mechanical problem." The Rennlist forum, with like knowledgeable people like you, Jake, Ahsai, Macster, Wayne, and many others is a logical place to ask for help, especially when other avenues have been exhausted. You told me on the phone that that you replaced the valve lifters during the rebuild. Is this correct? William and I could not tell by looking at them (see photos in post 133). It has been pointed out that the part number 996.105.225.22 on the removed lifters is an old part number; new lifters end in .25.

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Very classy...is this coming from firsthand knowledge or are you just trying to stir the pot? Again, firsthand knowledge? If so, I'm sure many here would love to hear your story, otherwise your comments are over-the-top. Remember, Karma can be a real bitch...even if you're not a Buddhist.

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No stirring the pot....it's common knowledge. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...n-chicago.html https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...op-advice.html

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Kirt, All of those discussions are result of you not sending the car to me. I have offered you help but the deal was you have to ship your car to me because warranty period was over. If I worked on your car it wouldn't leave my shop until the problem was found and fixed for good. If I take the responsibility to fix something I would spend whatever amount of time was needed to find the problem and make sure it doesn't come back. You didn't want to pay for shipping and wanted to save money going to local techs. Later, you complain on the forum that you wish you had the lever of service at Flat Six where you would pay 2.5x more for the same rebuild and wait a year for it. I do offer good price for my services but I'm not a Santa Clause! I did tell you I'd repair it for free if it's something inside the long block (after the warranty was over). You have lost more money on local repairs than you would have paid for shipping the car to my shop. Yet, you still have a problem and car is still not running well. At this point I refuse to repair someone else's work, even if they took Jake's classes. If anything should ever happen while my engine is under warranty I would pay for shipping and for all expenses related to the problem. Thanks to you now I'm being called a thief. This is why I ask all the knowledgeable guys here on rl (Ahsai, Jake, hell even Sneaky Pete maybe able to notice something with his eye for details) to take a look at this picture below and tell me if you see the new lifters? I'm waiting for your responses

Split shipping costs with customer out of respect for the fact your engine is failing such a short time after being sold. OR Stand ground on shipping, have it be known by every 996 owner on RL that if your budget Martin rebuild has a problem, you're screwed. Your call.

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Before anyone says anything else please answer my previous question about the picture above.

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Have you not read the posts? OP was double the time limit out of warranty and two other guys touched it since, not to mention it was driven with known problem for over two months. There's no way any sane business person is gonna bend over like that. Dunno, the last time I shipped an engine, it was $500. Not "thousands and thousands". It would've been the best for OP to have shipped it back originally. Since that hasn't happened, we're probably facing a 40+ page thread full of everything which will either end in a locked thread or boobies at the least.

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6months on an X51 rebuild. It hits the ****ter 12months in?? Unacceptable imo, but maybe my standards are different than yours. Stated warranty is a guide not a bible as Porsche and others have shown. Especially if that business person knows their work is a half measure that doesn't really eliminate risk in the manner that's marketed at the time of sale. Boobies would be better than Martin acting like a 15yo internet troll.

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Hi Martin, thanks for you words and I'm flattered. I'm just another enthusiast on this forum and I just happen to like helping people out with car problems... Regarding your photo, I saw new exhaust lifters. There seems to be cam lobe wear marks on the intake lifters though. Are you saying those are new also? A brand new one from ECS tuning for comparison here. Sorry if I missed anything.

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The old ones will be stretched like this or with oil leak http://www.georgeco.org/diy/porsche-...placement-diy/ These will not explain the intermittent rough idle. I still think your best bet at this point is to do Durametric logging and see if anything jumps out during rough idle. e.g., coolant temp, cam deviations, rpm, MAF, misfire, RKAT, O2 sensor voltage, etc. Who knows, maybe you have a sticky evap purge valve that hangs up intermittently.

BTW, just want to further comment on intake lifters. I believe due to cost, most rebuilders reuse them as they are not known to cause problems (unless the engine was not well maintained and has used dirty oil). In fact, I'm reusing mine in my rebuild also. Hard to justify spending $1,680 for them if they run fine. Another parts are the lifter cradle, which are also wear items (mated with the lifters) but seldom replaced also due to cost ($800 for both). When a mechanical component is reused, there's always risk and that's why Jake always says he only reuses 6 components...to minimize any tail end failure. When deciding what to replace, it's always a trade-off between cost and long term reliability. @Martin, it's no secret LN uses Millennium to resleeve the block (Charles said it himself on RL). I went with LN because the package they put together and the R&D effort they spent to figure out the optimal piston/ring/cylinder combo...also all the support they have when I'm rebuilding the engine. There's R&D cost and I respect that.

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Did you not read my original post? The misfires started at 6.5 months after engine installation, not a year. Who are the two other guys who touched the engine? My local indy would not open up a 996 engine. BAMW would. That's 0 + 1 = 1. "Driven with known problem"?! Did you notice the part about me putting a new plug and coil onto cylinder 1 and the the misfires clearing up...for a month? There was no known problem when driving during that time. And MBM said that there was no problem inside the engine. They would need the whole car to be able to actually run the engine to (a) see the problem and (b) see it resolved. Take a look online for shipping from northern California to Florida. It would cost $3000+ It also costs $2200 or so to have the engine removed and reinstalled, then say $800 for round trip shipping. And there is not a way to see the problem firsthand if this were done. Having it repaired locally is cheaper and should be safer less risky.

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If the oil from the original engine had metal flakes in it to IMSB failure, those flakes could be all over the engine. I haven't fully figured out how the intake valve lifters work. Could metal flakes get inside and cause it to intermittently jam?

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Usually the filter will catch all of the smaller debris...unless the oil filter bypass valve opened at some point. That would be very very bad as the debris laden oil will go everywhere, to all the crank and cam bearing journals as well making the engine not salvageable. When the engine is rebuilt, the case, the heads and everything else should be thoroughly cleaned so it's unlikely. BTW, are you still seeing intermittent misfires on cyl#1 and are the symptoms same as before?

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I'm seeing the same.

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Thank you for your response Ahsai, you have proved again that you're smart and perceptive. As you said earlier, we can see in this picture that intake valve lifters are used. You also said some rebuilders reuse them to save money. I would understand that if the rebuild would cost $10,000... In Kirt's case those intake valves were replaced with new ones because original intake valves had scoring due to IMS failure. I will not let anyone call me a thief or budget Martin, or say (quote: "Well now isn't this getting interesting. It appears as MB is re-using some parts in his builds. I guess at that price point one would do that." -Sneaky Pete) Re Sneaky Pete's post#198 "I'm seeing the same." Sneaky Pete, I have to praise you for being perceptive! Please answer this question: Who do you call a guy who charges 20k plus for engine rebuild? Thief or worse? It just so happens that this picture is from Flat Six Facebook and it's Jason's 4.0l track performer under construction! Pete, I also have a picture of your "apples and oranges 4.0l". I wonder if you still believe Jake throws out everything and reuses only 6 elements? Take a good look at another screen shot below which shows your valve lifters. Same thing! You only have new exhaust valves because they were cheaper, intake valves are reused to save $1800 on 20k+ rebuild. Not to mention your dirty cases. I hope this opens some eyes...

Lol, no wonder the photo looks familiar. In Pete's rebuild (the second photo), the intake lifters look like new though. No?

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Back on post 152, I posted Duramatric output of misfires and rough running with a cold engine for 50 seconds and warmed up engine for 100 seconds. When cold, the reading said it was rough and there were a few misfires on cylinders 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. When warmed up, the reading was no longer rough and there were zero misfires. But I could feel the car vibrating.

You sneaky devil I bet you thought you just dropped a bomb.....Yep that is correct the intake lifters were not replaced per my FSI quote. It is fully documented in our signed agreement so there is no smoking gun there. Did you document to your customer what was being replaced and what was not?

I just heard Marty go, "Oh, snap!".

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Documented or not bottom line is these lifters were reused. It's easy to accuse someone else of reusing parts and laugh at them or call them budget rebuilds while Jake does it himself! Now everyone can see for themselves. "Sneaky devil" will be my next company name in your honor, lol. BTW Pete, don't you think your cases should look more like the ones below instead? All that money you paid for your engine rebuild...Probably still paying off your credit cards? My crew in Poland spends hours and hours on cleaning those cases after they are done. Once they are cleaned, next step is resleeving. They take the time on each rebuild to make sure everything is perfectly clean and up to our standards. If FSI would want to do the same work here in US each engine rebuild would easily cost $50k.

Once again MB has to go out of his way to drag me into this. Let's make this clear, Martin: I am not the one here that's in question. My company isn't the one thats not standing behind the work. Your's is, and you damn sure better not make your problems into my problems. Don't even try that. Don't try to create diversionary comparisons about things you have no idea about, like you do every single time anyone brings anything up. It is clear that I am your hero; your superstar, and that you want to be like me when you grow up.. We get that. Thats why you chase me around like a puppy, looking at every pic we post, trying to learn something new. BUT I have figured out Martin's motive and plan here... When he gets under the magnifying glass, he brings me up and forces me to reply, which then lightens the load on Martin.. He knows I am going to reply, to clarify things about my program, just like I am doing in this post. So, what IF those lifter bodies that you referenced from my photo albums were disassembled and re- valved? What if the bodies were cryogenically enhanced? What if a jig was used to break new cam bodies in with their respective camshafts before the engine was built, just to ensure we'd not have problems after delivery, like you have? What if the internal springs were altered, and what if... What if?? Thats right, you don't know... You won't ever know. Everything I mentioned above is a possibility with what we build, but sometimes we simply reuse lifters, too. Like Pete said, my 14 page proposal (with zero fine print) with him even stated in bold font that this would occur. Moreover, no matter what I have done, how, or when, you won't find a single one of my purchasers with a complaint of a bad lifter, so whatever the hell I have been doing has worked better than what you have done. You are throwing darts in a dark room, trying to justify your failure to meet the customer's expectations, and then not standing behind the warranty that you always rave about. Nope, again, this isn't about me, and it isn't about what we charge for anything. I am NOT the one here with a dis- pleased customer that has a warranty claim that is not being honored. No part of this thread has been about my customer, and time and time again Martin has referenced, and used us as a resource. DrMems, if you need help, I'll help you. I'll be in your area next month instructing a class, and I might need your car for a prop. Everyone else: Lots of lessons to be learned here for purchasers, and vendors alike. One day I'll end up here with a less than pleased customer, and you guys will see how I handle this. Its going to happen, guaranteed, and I stand by, prepared for it every single hour of every single day. All the pics on Facebook are being removed, and placed on our server, and will be copyright 2016 Raby Enterprises Inc, and may not be shared, or reproduced without written permission from Raby Enterprises Inc. We have zero to hide from our purchasers, or anyone else, which is why we post the pics of every build that the customer allows us to share publicly. This way I can protect them with copyright, unlike Facebook sharing. Copyright, Patents, and Trademarks are what we have to spend money on to protect our intellectual property, so one reason things cost so much is because of people like Martin who force us to spend money to apply this protection.

[quote=BTW Pete, don't you think your cases should look more like the ones below instead? .[/quote] Doesn't bother me a bit. Ever hear of the saying "you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig"? It's what's inside that case that makes the difference.

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So to confirm, you reused intake valve lifters on my rebuilt X51 engine?

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No, I said those were new because the original ones were damaged (scored) due to ims failure.

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I smell the sense of entitlement here and a sense that you never ran a small business before. Misfires to me doesn't automatically equal engine hitting the $hitter, a classic RL knee jerk reaction. That's all I'll say on the matter as we're all outsiders looking in with what we all think our own versions of the truth really are.

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Dunno where you're getting quotes from but shipping a whole car is anywhere from $1k-$1200 from Cali to FL. I guess having it repaired locally hasn't really worked out and IMO introduces more risk as more variables are introduced. I'm not trying to knock you and I hope you can get to the bottom of your engine issues. There are two stories here and $hit can happen in life but I don't think witch hunts resolves anything either. I commend you for being very civil throughout this. I can't say the same for others.

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Great! This only proves you're afraid someone knowledgeable will point something out about your work. You would have to raise the quality of your work to try to compete with me. If you rebuild m96/97 engines the same way you do with air cooled motors then you will gain my respect and you will be able to compete with me. Your air cooled motors are done very well but that's individual matter. You will have to lower your price for m96/7 because you're charging too much. A lot of people can rebuild these motors same way for a lot less money not making a big deal out of it. It's not a flight to the moon. Now your system has crashed because there is someone to pinpoint your mistakes. I also told you and everyone else that your ims solution is very good. We got to know each other a little bit over the years. You treated me as another sucker who should repair Hyundai's instead of Porsches. You just did not know you stumbled upon someone who can challenge you and who can pinpoint your mistakes. You got under my skin and believe me I wont let it slide. Whatever you do I will always have a plan b. Right now I'm 30% of the way, all your potential customers are already buying from me. Next 2 years when we talk you will see full 100% of my plan in effect By then you will see that your backlog will shrink and slowly disappear. That's a promise. Btw, I already have pictures of those rusty rods and many more from your fb which you installed in your expensive rebuilds

Jake, I can see you're currently working very hard to remove all photos from rebuilds on your fb page. I'd remove the one below asap because it shows rusty rods being installed in a freshly rebuilt engine. That doesn't look like sterile conditions to me! I already have lots of copies of those pics, don't worry! I have more for you! You should verify who takes your classes a little better

Note that I never said the pics wouldn't be shared.. They will, they'll just be shared where they can be copyright protected from thieves. Thats laughable.. You are the one chasing me around, trying to find things wrong with what we do. There's zero competition between what we do. You see what I intend for you to see. What we do makes more power than anyone in this industry, and you won't read of a failure. You will also not read of someone that has a complaint because I won't stand behind the work. No, I won't. Prices go up, not down. Again, this isn't about me. I've made no mistakes, and I have followed my proposals verbatim. Again, this is about your issue, and not mine. I don't give a damn what you think about it. Got that? No, if you knew me, you'd know better than to push me in the manner that you have. You said it, not me. How many company names will you cycle through between now and then? Whatever. Start standing behind your work, else you'll not stand a chance with any "overthrow" that you have planned.

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This is like psycho gay man crush stalker **** here. This goes way beyond irrational obsession.

Jake, to end this subject we will get back to this conversation in 2 years when you're supposedly retired. Just like 2 years ago you promised me a first copy of your book with special dedication which was supposed to be a fire starter for my fireplace, in 2 more years we will see that you're still looking for customers on rl feeding them your cool aid. I'd forget thinking about retirement if I were you, you know it and I know it its never going to happen in 2 years.

Good night Martin

Good night Jake.

Good night moon.

and the cow jumping over the moon.

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Lol, did I just witness a classic WB cartoon moment? Anybody wanna guess the cartoon?

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This like the ending of "The Waltons" Ha!

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Not quite. Was thinking more of Ralph Wolf and Sam Sheepdog episodes. FHES - Punching the Clock - YouTube

shoula figured that one out! Now I know Jake has a facebook page, thanks Martin!

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Dang it. I remembered the episodes but I couldn't remember the characters. Great stuff.

Wow, I usually keep to the boring 996tt board but I just couldn't help myself with this one. Skip to 16 seconds in. Now the question is, who is who?

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Entitlement = expecting an X51 rebuild to last > 6.5 months before needing several $grand in maintenance? Respectfully disagree. But as your curious logic points out, since I'm not a small business owner it's not something I'm qualified to speak about. What do I know about specific performance and the long term CBA of shunning a customer publicly in a popular forum vs. lending a helping hand? Clearly nothing.. Tu quoque http://www.geek.com/news/the-11-most...acies-1636224/ Martin's funny. On one hand he calls the 996 engines fragile and not meant to be driven hard/pushed to redline. On the other hand he doesn't mind selling blown engines in rebuild form to undercut the market. Classy guy, don't see any weak points in his constitution. Only dog I have in this fight is to vet a prospective 3.8L conversion shop or rebuilder. So far the married guy with a constant hard on for FSI is eliminating any risk of accepting a check from me. Split shipping and fix that man's X51, correct this time and not ticking time bomb style!

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You're making a very big assumption here that something was wrong with the rebuild. Either way you might be one of those guys trying to return something standing in line at Best Buy, raising their voice arguing that since it is an HP computer, it shouldn't fail after 13 months and even if warranty was 12 months, trying to return it. Those kinds of people I can't debate with as it's futile. As much as I feel for the OP, sometimes $hit happens and out of warranty is out of warranty in the products I deal with. I don't know what kind of products you're used to buying that allows exceptions. It's really quite simple. People that want a lower cost rebuild that want to take a risk with shorter warranty can go to Martin. Those that aren't comfortable with that or want to splurge on paying more for a better warranty or engine with more bells and whistles can go to Jake. As I've said before, it's finally great to have many choices these days(including Vertex, Vision, 9f, etc.). It's a win for consumers.

As long as they know what they are buying on the front end. That said, I hate everything about warranties, especially when people try to take advantage of them, or when shops invent issues that don't exist just to get paid by a warranty. I pretty much make it impossible to be taken advantage of, but if someone has a warranty issue, I never question it. We get the car back, pay shipping, and fix the damn thing. Even if it's 5 years out of warranty.

My FSI experience has been Fantastic! My conversation with Jake convinced me to go with him. Jake spent as much time as I wanted to spend going over every piece/option of his proposal before I signed on the dotted line. As stated- "There was no fine print". More than that- I sensed Jake's word was gold. I actually would have been good with a handshake. However; society necessitates a contract- and FSI provides one that is painfully clear to those that have the ability to read. As I stated in another thread- Jake and FSI delivered what they promised. The entire process was carried out as planned. The car went into their hands on time and came out on time and budget! Jake and FSI went beyond the call at every step, and I was provided a wealth of documentation to support every part of the process. I was delivered a very nice performing piece of art, and I continue to be smiling ear to ear!! I enjoy working with craftsmen that deliver what they promise. Thus; it has been my honor to develop a FSI relationship.

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This is what we deliver. At the end of the day, the owner of the engine isn't a customer; he's a friend. My friends like this have invited me into their homes on the opposite side of the planet, and have been beside me over the past 18 years of growing this business. Some of these people bought 914 & 356 engines from me when I was just a kid, and I've been through their Porsche ownership with them, sometimes supplying 3-4 engines over the years. In the case of one of these friends, I have supplied him with 13 engines, and 7 cars over the years. Thats what I look back on, often, and what I am most proud of. I'm really happy to have 501 Max as a friend.

You guys don't realize how many engines I have repaired between my 2 locations. Most of them are out of warranty by now and still running strong. I have not received a single complain from those clients. Let me tell you how I stand behind my work and my products. I sold a used 3.8l 997 engine from Poland to customer in Israel, that was back in August of 2015 (it's on my FB page). Later, customer contacted us and said that engine had loud knocking noise and smoke coming from exhaust. He recorded a video and emailed it so we could verify this information. It turned out his engine developed scoring. I told him to remove the motor, prepare it for pick up and let me know when it's ready. I shipped it back to Poland by UPS air freight at MY OWN EXPENSE no questions asked. I told my client I will take the motor completely apart and perform a full rebuild (including resleeving all cylinders to eliminate scoring issues for good) at no cost to him . After it was finished I shipped it back by UPS air freight at my expense again, total of $2300 both ways. Customer installed his engine and is happy ever since, just asked what is the procedure for break in period. Another problem was with a freshly rebuilt 3.6l 996 engine which had original cylinders, not resleeved (same as Kirt's x51). That was back in 2014, customer was driving his car everyday during very harsh Canadian winter. One day before the warranty was over his shop contacted me saying this engine developed scoring. They have purchased a couple of engines from us for their clients. What did I do? I shipped the motor back at MY EXPENSE and resleeved all cylinders at no additional cost to customer. This shop knew exactly what they were buying and chose not to resleeve the cylinders at the time of purchase. In Kirt's case it wasn't obvious that there was something wrong inside the long block. He had an intermittent problem which he tried to diagnose himself for 2 months without letting us know about it. I believe it's because it wasn't evident that it was indeed a problem with 1 stuck lifter. We told him that he would have to ship the car to us since warranty is over and once we have the car here we would find the problem. It was clearly explained that if there would be something wrong inside the long block we would cover the repair in full, and if it was something not related to the engine he would have to pay for diagnosing and repairing the problem. He didn't know himself what to do in this case and I believe this is why he chose to go with a local tech. If his engine blew up and it was evidently my fault I would ship the car back no questions asked, even after warranty was over. In fact if any engine I repaired evidently blew up as a result of my f...up I would ship it back and repair it at no cost to customer. Now, after customer's local shop worked on our motor it doesn't concern MB Motorsports anymore. We don't offer original cylinders in our rebuilds anymore to eliminate problems with possible future scoring. Now all of our rebuilds come with all resleeved cylinders and 1 year warranty instead of 6 months. Resleeved cylinders have 5 year warranty by the way, so if there is anything wrong with them we will also repair them at no cost to customer.

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Martin: How is it that my new valve lifters have a part number that hasn't been manufactured for a few years? Since you rebuild a lot of engines with IMSB failure, you've probably gone through a lot of new valve lifters.

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No response to this yet? I thought Martin was alllllll about customer service according to his last post on this thread. Hello anybody home?

This thread has turned from a $hitshow into an episode of "Keeping up with the Kardasians of Rennlist". Please just stahp already. Yall look like a bunch of children.

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The cave pic a little to much? The Dr has a valid question and he should get an answer. No?

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They should take this offline in email chains or something. Its kind of embarrassing to read honestly. No good will come of it and neither party is going to get resolution.

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totally agree.

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Gotta give this a +997 instead.

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Pete, You know I have no love for Martin, but please just give it a rest if Martin himself isn't causing trouble or obfuscating things. Yes DrMEMS has a right to know the answer and given what Martin has said in this thread I have no objection to him asking for a public answer. There is no need for anyone else to get involved. It was quite obvious that Martin was not answering without you pointing it out. If he makes a post that is wrong/misleading/generally not helpful, by all means feel free to jump on him about it. Just piling on and instigating like you have been doing, however, makes you look similar to a chief complaint we have about him (his petty attacks on Jake).

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Point taken and accepted. This whole story just stinks for the OP because he is the one who got hurt.

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Hurt twice technically... Don't forget the reason why he had to get a new motor in the first place.

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I get parts from Europe, there are many parts in stock in warehouses from different years and different models.

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I'd worry about your own old lifters in your "super" rebuild.

We should "crowd fund" this repair by Jake and Flat Six Innovations. And then have Jake post & document all of Marty's screw-ups. Put me down for $100. Where do I mail the check?

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Shouldn't it be part of your quality control process to verify that the parts you are using have not been superseded? Seems to me that if Porsche felt the need to EOL a part and replace it with a different one that they had a good reason. If that is the case then using the old version seems like a bad idea.

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Why should I? My guy has got my back.

my dad can beat up your dad!

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Now Skipper, now can Pete blow it up? Madagascar Penguins Christmas Story Rico - YouTube

The real question that subscribed fans want to know is if DrMEMS took Jake up on his offer to look at the car and use it in his class(totally classy move by Jake). If so, I can't wait to see the outcome. If not, I got no sympathy.

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Where is this posted?

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Give him a call!

We have now acquired a car for the class. This is NOT DrMem's car.

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Bummer. Awesome opportunity missed out on

Ok, now I feel horrible for the guy. He can't seem to catch a break. Count me in on the crowd sourcing for $100.

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no different than us DIY'ers reusing our own used lifters. Martin said they were new - not the latest and greatest form porsche. There's a difference.

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Devil's advocate - if Porsche develops a newer part, it makes more sense to stop producing the original. There are any number of 997 parts that have replaced their 996 equivalents. While there may have been nothing wrong with the previous part, continuing to produce two nearly identical and interchangeable parts would be daft.

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This is not the case all the time. I have a fair amount of 997 parts that were superceded but no improvements. Sometimes it's done only to ease record keeping and inventory. I get several NOS items from Europe all the time for my BMW's. Doesn't mean it's inferior in any way or has been used.

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It seems like he may have burnt bridges from two top guys here now. First he said LN retrofit caused his engine to fail IIRC, and now this. If he really did encounter bad luck two times in a row, he shouldn't bother crossing the street if I were him. It also begs the question if he's using the same shop in this situation that he used the last time. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...30k-miles.html

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As you point out, these are still new (and I'm not questioning that) which is different than reusing the old ones. I think a key difference, however, is that doing it DIY you are the only one to blame and feel the pain if the choice ultimately turns out to have been a bad one. I know nothing about lifters so I'm not even trying to really judge that the newer part is indeed better. Just from a business quality perspective it seems to me that if you are using factory parts, then using the latest revision available is the most logical path. The opposite is also true though where 996s have some 993 parts and 997s have some 996 parts. In those cases the parts were obviously fine and needed no revision so they just kept with it. For something like the cabin filter, yeah who cares if you slap a 996 version in rather than the newer 997 version we are supposed to use. The chances of something adverse happening there is pretty slim. Are engine internals as easy to write of the changes (I have no idea what makes the difference between the lifters, maybe it really is nothing important)? I spent a few years selling military aircraft parts and they get touchy about getting superseded parts (well the US government rarely checked, but the Japanese were super **** with their receiving QA!). Maybe that time has jaded me, but if I pay for critical new parts and find out later they weren't the updated versions I'd be pretty pissed about it.

...and after Martin explained the sitch, I'd be happy with that answer.

Maybe the fact he's a doctor irl explains the lack of interest in focusing on the lowest cost solutions (ship to Martin or let Jake inspect it)?

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Ya, I didn't make it through the whole thing but got far enough to see "I got rear ended, there was metal flakes the next oil change, kept driving, Jake was extremely helpful but I sent it to Martin because he was cheaper, Martin said it was the IMS Retrofit's fault." Then DrMems mysteriously appears and begins posting all about it because Martin was banned and couldn't do it himself. Did I miss anything? FYI, I do know someone that had metal flakes at an oil change on the magnetic drain plug. The shop immediately replaced his failing IMS with a retrofit and the car has run fine ever since. I think this simple act would have saved the cost of two engines. I also think that sending his engine to someone that had a vested interested in diagnosing it as "bad" was a poor choice. I'm not saying MBM lied, I just wouldn't want to put them in a position to benefit by doing so. I didn't read anything that said that the engine was running poorly, only that the metal continued to flake as DrMems continued to drive it. He said two mechanics said to continue to drive it but I'm willing to bet Jake wasn't one of them.

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My engine mounts were worn: The bolt on the bottom of each old mount stuck out about half an inch farther than on the new mount. Replacing them did not help the vibration in the car when idling. I talked to Jake about FRAU and RKAT and he said that my numbers were just right. They also showed no vacuum leaks.

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How are the symptoms now and were you able to get Jake to look at it in person? Still more misfires on cyl #1?

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The engine is now always idling roughly, so much that the car shudders. When I rev it up above 2000 rpm while stopped, I think it's smoother. I am not able to hold it steady at 2000 rpm because when I let off the gas ever so slightly, the engine speed drops back down toward idle. When driving, it feels just fine. After it's warmed up, the ECU is not seeing misfires or even rough running, which is odd because I sure feel it. I'm near San Jose, California and Jake is in Georgia and I missed him when he came out here for a class, so he has not looked at it. This weekend I'll put a new coolant temperature sensor in to see if that helps anything. (It's part number 996.606.410.00-M100. Pelican Parts' website says that this part number is a coolant sensor, but Pelican's sticker on the part says it's an oil-temperature sensor. I though that the oil-level sensor and oil-temperature sensor were in the same module.)

Not being able to hold it at 2000 rpm is normal. Try keep the clutch depressed next time (timing retard will aply) and you should be able to hold it at any rpm. That p/n is correct for the coolant temp sensor. They must have put a wrong sticker. You're right that the oil level and oil temp are combined into a single sensor and it's like a foot long. If your durametric coolant temp reading is what you expect it to be, your coolant temp sensor should be fine. The DME misfire detection should be pretty accurate and sensitive so is it possible what you're feeling/hearing are not misfires?

The engine was running roughly at idle (700 rpm). When stationary and revving it up to 1000, then 1500, then 2000 rpm, the roughness gradually decreased until I couldn't feel it by 2000 rpm. When driving, it seemed perfectly fine. A few days ago I replaced the regeneration valve (P/N 996.110.129.53) because other drivers at Pelican's website had the same symptoms and this was the solution. I think that the valve was getting stuck open, effectively producing a small vacuum leak into the intake manifold. This is extra air that has not passed past the MAF sensor, causing the engine to run a little lean. After several drives, with a warm engine, the rough idle has definitely decreased. There is still a little vibration when idling, but maybe I'm being too sensitive. My finger is pointing to the regeneration valve

That is great news! That will be huge if that was all it was. Keep us updated.

That is quite interesting because if that valve leaks, it could leak air or fuel vapor depending on the current fuel vapor concentration and it would move the RKAT value from 0.0 either way. You can use a hand vacuum pump to test that valve btw.

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I'm still having rough idling. Curiously enough, turning on the air-conditioning compressor actually smooths out the idle because it increases the engine speed just enough to make it smooth (and the compressor running normally is rough). I'm now getting a CEL code for low bank 2 catalytic converter efficiency, so I'm taking another look at the fuel-trim values. After driving for 40 minutes, I used my Durametric to read the trim values. Banks 1 and 2 are quite different for "adaption ranges" 1 and 2. Idling engine speed = 730 rpm, but varies a bit MAF = 17.0 kg/hr Camshaft deviation Bank 1 = 6.3 degrees Bank 2 = 0.1 degrees Adaption range 1 (near idle; RKAT) Bank 1 = 1.69 Bank 2 = 1.45 Adaption range 2 (lower load range; FRA) Bank 1 = 1.06 Bank 2 = 1.08 FRAU Bank 1 = 1.06 Bank 2 = 1.08 Adaption range 3 (upper load range; FRAO) Bank 1 = 1.03 Bank 2 = 1.02 I need help interpreting the values. I think that RKAT, FRA, and FRAO should all be near 1.00.

Quotes source post: 13411463

The bold number can't be right! The RKAT is in % so ideal value is 0.00%. all the other FRx needs to be close to 1.00. If you get 1.69, that means the DME is adding 69% more fuel in that load range!

You are correct! I had typed in the same value twice. I fixed my original post.

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I figures it got to be a copy and paste error. Your corrected numbers look ok to me. Does Durametric still show misfires?

Guys, please, no name calling. Also, please don't post personal information. Everyone take a deep breath. Thanks.

One thread this week wasn't good enough Pete? You really needed to reopen the bickering over here? I have no love for Martin, but your sniping at him is just as bad as the BS he throws at Jake. Unless you have something concrete to say, just ignore him. You have plenty of good things in your life to spend time on, stop wasting it on Martin.

Back to the problem in hand I noticed on the durametric readings the can deviation on one bank is almost zero and the other plus six, this seems like there's a problem with this bank , vario paddles , can cause rough running might be worth looking into??

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After the rebuild, the bank 1 camshaft deviation was small (I have forgotten the number). When the old cylinder 1 intake valve lifter started sticking, I had all six on that bank replaced. The indy Porsche mechanic saved me $2000+ by doing the replacement with the engine dropped down, but still in the car, rather than removing it. He told me that the first time he ran the repaired engine, the timing was off because the Porsche timing tool wouldn't fit with the engine still in the car. He dropped the engine again, adjusted the camshaft position, and reassembled it. He said that it was fine; I say that it's not. As I understand it, this is right at the edge of the Porsche spec of maximum 6 degrees error. I don't know whether this will cause rough idling (but fine when revved up a little). I'd like to hear from anyone that has had an M96 engine with the same camshaft deviation.

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Martin, stop. Now. You were warned. Step away from the keyboard and go hug your partner, dog, cat, goldfish. I'm closing this thread for a bit until everyone's blood pressure levels drop to sane numbers.

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I'm still here and still trying to get my engine idling smoothly. I have gotten some good information--and some misinformation--from the community's posts.

Everyone here should read this link: https://rennlist.com/forums/991-turb...e-posting.html Specifically, the charter ( https://rennlist.com/charter/ ), a part of the aforementioned URL, addresses conduct: I'm posting this in case anyone feels that they can say anything they want to whomever they want, whenever they want. Thanks for understanding. Let's keep it nice, all.

I just re-opened this thread. If there are anymore name-callings, threats, postings of personal information, etc., infractions and/or vacations will be given. I gave all involved last week a free pass. Everyone, including members, users, moderators and sponsors, agreed to the charter and the expected code of conduct. Don't like what someone says? Argue with the idea but don't insult the member. If things are getting really nasty, please hit the "Report Post" button and don't contribute to the negative actions. We are all here because of our love for cars and Porsches, so let's not lose sight of that essential factor. Have a great week, folks.

Thanks Mark. Again, apologies.

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No offense intended but yall (the mods) are way to lenient around here. People post way OT stuff all over RL and it is this type of allowed behavior that gets you threads like this. Yall need to whip out the banhammer.

DrMems I think this cam timing is where it's at, you shouldn't get one bank nearly zero deviation and the other on the limit at around six degrees just after a build, that bank isn't times right and I'd bet if you sort that your car will be right!

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I'd love to set the cam timing to where it belongs, but it costs something like $3K just to pull the motor out, which apparently is needed to fit in the Porsche special timing tool. Correcting the timing is additional cost. Unless anyone has a method of setting the cam timing with the engine in the car...

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No offense intended (well maybe a bit), but if you have signs that say you have a timing problem and you've already done just about everything else possible, then why not get the timing set properly? I get that you've spent an insane amount on it already and don't want to spend more if you don't have to, but if it really is the timing then you'll just keep chasing your tail trying other things. You have a known issue that could relate to the problem you are trying to solve, seems logical to me to get the issue solved properly.

The timing tool isn't so big, I can't comment myself without looking under my car, I did mine on the engine stand, I'm sure someone will comment. I think maybe you could just lower it down a little to give access, go and buy a hydraulic motorcycle lift and buy a porsche 996 timing kit off eBay and do it yourself, 3k to pull the engine , that's a lot , it takes half a day ??

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$3K includes reinstalling the engine, refillling the coolant and A/C, etc., so I think it's about two half days of labor by a mechanic who has done it many times. I might try your suggested eBay timing kit method. To answer Gnat's suggestion, I don't have any more thousand-dollar bills sitting around to fund a mechanic.

A 6* deviation won't cause poor running. It takes double that much to set an out of range CEL, and even then the engine will be an issue... You can have a 3 degree deviation advancement on one bank and 3 degrees of retard on the other to net a 6* deviation, according to what sensors you are looking at. I see the cam reluctors slightly bent, causing more deviation than this. The REAL way to check the cam timing accurately is with a lab scope with at least 2 channels of capability, then scope each sensor and overlay the plots. I have seen the DME be absolutely wrong before.

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Thanks, Jake. That's the bit of information I was looking for. Based on this, trying to reduce the Bank 1 camshaft deviation would be a waste of time and money.

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Absolutely. 6 degrees is still barely within the Porsche spec.

It's been eight months and I'm still working on fixing the rough idle. To recap, I had a sticky intake valve lifter in cylinder 1. That was replaced at 100 kmi and most of the rough running was gone, but the car still vibrates randomly at idle. I don't feel anything wrong when driving. Here's what I've tried since then: * 103 kmi: Looked at throttle body. Only a tiny bit of dirty film on it. Cleaned it with CRC brand throttle-body cleaner. No change. * 104 kmi: Replaced vent valve between canister and throttle, P/N 996.110.129.33. Little if any change. * 104 kmi: Replaced fuel tank vent valve, P/N 996.201.143.01.M100. No change. * 105 kmi: One of the cats had low efficiency, so I replaced them with used stock cats. * Somewhere in there I installed new stock Porsche engine mounts. No change. * Also replaced all six spark plugs again. No change. * My German-car mechanic suggested that a mismatch in fuel injectors due to minor clogging could be causing the rough idle. * My local indy-car mechanic did a smog check (passed) and checked items on their list, including fuel pressure and flow rate. Everything looked fine. Their next steps, if I wanted to pay for them, would be shot-in-the-dark leak-down tests and scoping the cylinders. I'll wait. They said that if there were a misbehaving fuel injector, it would show up in the fuel trim, but those numbers looked fine, so they didn't think the problem was with the fuel injectors. * 107-108 kmi: If clogged fuel injectors really are the problem, then fuel-injector cleaner might help. I fill with Chevron premium with Techron 90% of the time, but I gave it a try. I ran through two bottles of Techron Fuel-Injector Cleaner (not Techron Fuel-System Cleaner), then two bottles of STP Complete Fuel-System Cleaner. I think it's idling smoother, but is not perfect. I changed the oil (Joe Gibbs DT40) afterward based on reports of poor used-oil analyses after using fuel-system cleaner. * I brought the car back to my German-car mechanic to have the fuel injectors pulled and sent out for flow-rate and spray-pattern analysis. The mechanic found cylinder 1, 2, and 3 misfires, which I have not seen with my Durametric or experienced myself. He then didn't want to pull the fuel injectors and wants think about what might be causing bank-1-only misfires. * In his book, Wayne Dempsey says it costs about $200 for fuel-injector testing. Well, six new Bosch P/N 0.280.156.053 fuel injectors (which on Pelican parts I've ordered as Porsche P/N 996.606.122.00/ 14 and P/N 996.606.122.00/ 114 ) and, which are the same part number as I now have in the car, cost a little over $200, so it makes sense to try replace all six with new ones. I'll try that this weekend.

Using my Durametric to look at engine acceleration when each cylinder fires (they call it "rough running"), I can see that cylinder 1 accelerates the crankshaft speed when it fires (see plots below). Maybe this is because I replaced the cylinder 1 fuel injector a while back and it outputs a bit more fuel and the other five injectors. After the engine briefly warms up, cylinder 1 accelerates the engine speed when it fires. This is only at idle speed; when the engine is turning over faster, the acceleration disappears, which correlates with the roughness I feel disappearing when revving it up.

I couldn't figure out how to get the left fuel rail out. The supply line comes from the rear, unlike the photos in two books I have. Instead of replacing all of the fuel injectors, I pulled the new one from cylinder 1 and replaced it with the old one that I pulled a few months ago. That seems to work. I'd say that the rough idle I feel is 80% gone in limited testing. The graph below shows that, at idle, the cylinder 1 acceleration has dropped from about 3.5 (above post) to about 1 (graph below). After swapping in the old fuel injector to cylinder 1, the measured roughness at idle has dropped.

Very nice and looks promising! This one was truly a puzzle. So your Cyl #1 misfire was caused by the stuck lifter first, and then by a bad fuel injector. Does that summarize it pretty much?

Quotes source post: 13757786

Its always possible to have two problems, on the same cylinder at once... You can even have one problem spawn the other. Bad intake lifters breed injector issues, since the intake charge travels back up the tract, and fouls the injector tip while the bad lifter does its thing. Injectors are causing all sorts of issues these days with these engines, and they are often overlooked. I need to write a 5 page post about this..

Quotes source post: 13757786

Not quite. I just had a stuck lifter in cylinder 1, which caused cylinder 1 misfires. In trying to resolve the problem, I replaced a lot of parts, including the cylinder 1 fuel injector. I think that the new injector was putting out a little more fuel than the other five, causing the rough running. When I put the old injector back in, the idle smoothed out. I caused one problem when trying to fix another!

It's been a week and a few hundred miles and the rough-idle fix is still working. I find myself lingering longer than needed at stop signs and when parking to feel the car doing...nothing, just idling smoothly. It's interesting that the rough-idle problem didn't show up in the fuel-trim values, as one mechanic said it should. Before, with a new cylinder 1 fuel injector, I had: Bank 1 FRA = 1.04, RKAT = 0.94. Bank 2 FRA = 1.06, RKAT = 0.84. Afterward, with the old cylinder 1 fuel injector back in: Bank 1 FRA = 1.06, RKAT = 1.03. Bank 2 FRA = 1.10, RKAT = 0.75. I think this means that the bank 1 injectors have a little longer pulses now (both FRA and RKAT are higher), so I might end up with a little more power. For bank 2, I can't tell whether the DME is sending more or less fuel. If anyone can shed some more light on this, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Bravo !! I applaud your determination in getting to the resolution of this issue ! Even though it took 8 months, the main thing is it solved the problem.

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Going through this issue with my 03 C4S on Cyl #5. Every morning, after the initial warm-up cycle, it throws a CEL P0305 if I just let it idle until warm. Sometimes I can avoid the issue by reving it to 2000 for 1-2 minutes until it warms up. Once up to temperature (160-180) the car operates normally all day. I'm leaning towards the Intake lifters getting stuck in the high-lift position. I can sometimes hear intermittent little pops from the intake. A leakdown and compression tests shows everything is Ok. Due to the cost of the intake lifters, and because I'm doing the work myself, I will try to get those lifters out, disassemble and inspect them. Based on their condition, I may try to 'fix them' and probably take them to my brothers machine shop to get the parts checked out and or micropolished. I find it ridiculous for them to be close to $200 each while the exhaust are only $23. If the problem persist, then I have no choice but to replace only the two that are suspected. Call me cheapskate if you like but that's my story.

Have you ever tried the correct warm up procedure?

Quotes source post: 13913369

For smooth running you need consistent spark, the right mass of fuel and air, and valve lift/timing. I assume you've already replaced or swapped the cylinder 5 spark plug and coil; if not, try that first. The way I could tell that my car's cylinder 1 was not consistently getting the right amount of burned air-fuel mixture was starting a cold engine, letting it run for just 10 seconds, turning it off, then immediately measuring the temperature of the three bank 1 exhaust pipes with a thermocouple. Your hand might also work. My cylinder 1 was sometimes noticeably colder than the other two cylinders. You'd of course check cylinders 4, 5, and 6 on bank 2. The intermittent nature suggested one of the two cylinder 1 intake valves stuck part of the time, and that's indeed what was seen when the valve lifters were removed. You should also be able to hear a tick-tick-tick on the right side of your engine when it's running roughly. It should disappear when it's smooth. Given the time that it will take you to pull the engine, then remove the valve cover and camshafts to get to the valve lifters, at the very least I'd put in a new intake valve lifter (see earlier in this thread for the correct latest valve lifter part number, which is not what I had after my rebuild!).