996 vs 997 comparo

This will rattle your cage?? http://thegarage.jalopnik.com/get-yo...ust-1791362708

Tavarish is up to his old douchebaggery, I see. Every 996 reference that is dangerously close to being complimentary needs to be diluted with a catty remark. "The interior is a goddamn masterpiece compared to the garbled mess that is the 996, and the exterior was so popular that Porsche did little to deviate from it for its newer 991 generation, while 996 owners are currently scrambling to find body kits that will update their runny egg headlights to something that resembles this body style." Yeah, man, the headlights were ugly, and the spartan interior will always be a bone of contention when compared against the Cessna-grade furnishings of the "classic" 911 and the gratuitous gadgetry that permeates the 991. Puerile Jalopnik articles haven't made me hate my 996 yet...and I don't imagine that's going to change any time soon. No matter how many "goddams" Tavarish works into his articles, he won't ever be as clever and engaging as DeMuro.

I hate writers that try too hard. That said, I do enjoy his articles. Just wish he turned it down a notch.

Douches

Seem to be some serious factual errors in the article. Indicates that for anyone except a total PCar geek there are bargain niches to find and awful money pits to avoid. Tavarish seems to have failed in making that fundamental distinction. Got to wonder why he would not have run his ideas through Rennlist before making an *** ........... He even muddles maintenance and repairs. The maintenance is a known ,predictable expense that is easy to forecast. The repairs are not. Conflating the 2 is feeble at best. But he is the journo, we are not. So we should comb through his article ,correct it and make the logical recommendations about a stupid cheap 997/996 privately to ourselves !

Apollo 911 defies this article

Nearsighted comes to mind. Remember, in the 80's, an early Porsche, especially the short wheel base cars, were sneered at by owners of newer hardware. Largely seen as a toy or upgraded VW and not a ground breaking, elegant design for its time. Then the late 90's came along and the 993 was king. It wasn't until recently that an early to mid 90's car started commanding respect and gaining in value. At the risk of sounding like a cermudgon, the new cars really do not get me going: too big, too heavy, too many driving "aids", too expensive. I am happy as a turd in chopped peanuts to scoot around in my low cost, low desire 996. At some point, it will be cool and expensive at which point I will have to put it in the garage as it is too risky to pilot on the streets. Or maybe not.

Well I guess he had to fill the pages with something. I've always found the 997 S and Turbo interiors is butt grotesque...the cheap silver crap with the telephone style center section and the bad paint that crumbles off the switches...plus the pimped up white dials on the dash...it all reminds me of the old Black Gold version of the Datsun 260Z. The 996 interior is one of the best interiors of any Porsche ever made. 997 equals Big CRAP! And the car doesn't have a spare tire or a dip stick....it is a cheap toy that can't be trusted to take you on an overnight trip without a flatbed standing buy to carry you home. The 996 (including its warts) is a far more real car.

I dunno, I agree that the 997.1 interior is better than 996, but it isn't "good". 997.1 is basically on par with the E46 and E90 3-series, which were ~$30-35k at that time (my 2003 had a base price of like $27.x) I think the 996 body has aged well over time, and they kept essentially all of it around for 997 other than the lights. What is correct though is that 997.1TT pricing is getting reasonable. There have been a few decent ones in the 55-60k range that I've seen recently, and I think it's a better buy than the high-money 996TT examples out there. If you're spending more than 45, it just makes sense to jump to 997. That thing is a rocketship.

Just a quick reminder that a) the 996 interior was created for 993, but Porsche couldn't afford to build it then (because sales were in the crapper, partly because the 993 was obsolescent and overpriced upon release and the market knew it). and b) the plastic *finishes* on the stock 996 interior are questionable, esp. on the .1 cars. But tick a bunch of leather options and you're in a distinctive, efficient, modern cockpit. (Whereas 997 door panels could be placed in a LeSabre without raising an eyebrow-- slabtastic. I know: first time Porsche have ever specified "serviceable" finishes installed at close tolerances, and demanded additional ransom for luxury and touchability. Til I'm blue in the face: 996 is just another 911.

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Having full leather makes it way more tolerable, and I assume painted center console is a big help too. Doesn't fix the ****ty turn signal and cruise control stalks though, or the sticky radio control dials.

Cant argue about the stalks. I don't recall those in my '70 or '84 911s being especially "satisfying" either, though. I'm just not convinced Porsche ever gave a crap about switchgear feel , so knocking the 996 about it seems silly to me. Would you trade 5% of how sublime the brakes and steering feel, or 3% of the throttle's microprecision, or half a fathom of the paint depth, for 15% swankier turn signal feel? I wouldn't.

How significant are any of the aesthetic comments when faced with a huge repair bill because you bought the wrong 'stupid cheap' model Tavarish foolishly recommended ? That is why I suggested we improve his article and nominate the best bargains among the 996/997 alternatives. Is the 997 turbo PDK or TIP really the best bargain? He does not even mention Sport Chrono. And my prize for a misleading and foolish assertion :“Take care of it, and it’ll take care of you.”

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They're much better in 987/997, so apparently they started to care at some point. I don't know why it matters so much to me, but going from the E46 (great feeling!) to the 996, the difference was pretty obvious. Newer BMW switchgear is a lot less satisfying feeling, so I'm just strange I guess. Other than the shifter though (and that's easy enough to swap), there's not at all much difference in feel between 996 and 997 in the stuff that matters. And I guess that's why we buy these cars.

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That's funny. I know Tavarish has to be a Rennlister based on his previous articles. My money was on him being one of your alter egos. Guess I was wrong. No?

I find it hard to believe that someone could be that opinionated about a car interior... Other than the missing glove box from the mk1's, I like the 996 interior just fine. I think it's a good fit to the exterior. Interesting comments about how it was originally designed for the 993. To me, that somehow makes for a good "air to water-cooled" transition-era detail that makes the 996 even more special as the torch-bearing water-cooled 911. IMO, these are very special cars that, someday, could easily end up being worth more than 997's. Much like how the original 60's era AC cars are generally worth more than the SC-look cars that lasted into the 80's. Don't get me wrong, I also like the newer look of the 997 and think it's interior matches the car well, but cannot say I like it any more or less than the 996 guts. It's just newer. Given a choice from all of the 993/996/997 interior's I've seen, I'd have to say my favorite would be the 996 mk2 interior in full-leather with the burl wood shift **** and three spoke wood-accented steering wheel. Maybe in that dark red or dark caramel/camel color (don't remember the name) like in the 996 Millenium Edition cars).

I read and like most of the Jalopnik writers, I even enjoy most of Tavarish's articles. But goddamn I'm sick of every "auto-journalist" repeating the same crap year after year (runny egg headlights, crappy interior, yada yada) It has been done to death. I'm guessing most of these writers have never been in a 996, let alone driven one. Mine ('99 6mt coupe) puts the biggest smile on my face every single time I get in it. Do I wish I had a 930? Hell yes, but for sub 20K this is by far the best bang for buck. Sorry for the rant, but I was pretty pissed at him yesterday for bringing up the same lazy BS that is written in every article about the 996. jim

same headlight and interior comments in every article. the headlights don't bother me one bit. I find the kits out there that trick you in seeing round headlights are horrible looking. I have the leather interior and I still find it to be one of the nicest and simplest interiors out there. the new ones look cheap with all that silver plastic.

You can get the full leather option in the new ones too.

At what point in history did gear heads start acting like interior designers? "but then I was like, it didn't even have PASM!" "so the interior - totally needs a makeover to please my aesthetic sensibilities" "I know the performance is good, but what really gets me going is an updated headlight housing"

For those not familiar with the author, he's really not worth the trouble. On his best days, he omits a lot. Normally, he just's wrong. Not to mention his writing style is just annoying. I'd say he's only around because he has click bait titles and his controversial style does generate a lot of traffic. I wish Jalopnik would just take the high road and get rid of him. I'm guilty as charged, I just click because I wonder what garbage he's going to write...kind of like getting something stinky on your finger.

I test drove a few 997s trying really hard to justify the price difference from the 996.2 I have, and I just couldn't. I did like the 997.2 interior better, but not $20k better. Personally I don't care for 997.1 interior, the finish flakes off the hvac buttons and it looks awful. The performance difference is tiny and the price difference is enormous. If he actually drove the similar 996 and 997 models back to back, I'd be surprised. Looks like clickbait sensationalism bull**** to me.

997.2 ?? A 20k difference seems huge until you are faced with an engine rebuild for an M96 because of one of the 24+ Modes of Failure. and the total cost of the rebuild is the value of the car -after the rebuild ! Many of these Modes were eliminated in the 9A1 engine. But a few new ones were added -yup, it's a Porsche after all. Maybe we need a separate thread for the Interior Designer types?

Is this leather grey or black? I can't tell much beyond the fact it's a tiptronic so I don't know how to drive it.

I like the 996 interior, works for me. Pleanty of space for stuff it's functional looks good. Easy to replace buts when they get worn, the list goes on. The only thing I wish the 996 had that the 997 does is the ability to put your speed on the main cluster dial!

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Can you please elaborate and maybe post up some references? Thanks.

Like others have said - it's a difficult read. Very poorly written by someone trying far too hard. I didn't make it through the first paragraph before I had to start skimming to avoid more laborious analogies. It also lacks any original opinion, just recycled rhetoric. The headlights? Really? That being said, its rubbish. To insinuate that someone would buy a 996 because they can't afford a 997 is just silly. If I were shopping for car in the 60k range I'd certainly choose the Ferrari 360. Period.

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Visit Flat 6/Jake Raby for all the details or google M96 Modes of Failure.He as also commented on the M96/9A1 differences..

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THAT is a beautiful interior. Cannot imagine why anybody would complain about that!!!!

When I sold my 996 I was 997 turbo shopping before I purchased the R8. I looked at 4 different 997.1 turbo cars all between 60,000 km and 90,000 km. What jumps out at me with the 997 interior most is the wear. My 996 interior was darn near flawless after 120,0000 km with various owners caring for it. The 997 single owner cars switches were all peeling, steering wheels worn, the door bolsters were all scuffed up etc... the wear and tear on a 996 vs 997 interior was pretty significant. Having said that I did prefer the seats, and the interior in the 997 better it just doesn't stand up well to me.

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who designed ^this^, the Joker? God this is grotesque, and must have cost a fortune... there is truly no accounting for taste! The Jalopnik guy is a schmuck... my $.02 😄

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I give you one hint! Ready, Get set, GooooOOOOoo!

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Thanks I was specifically looking issues with the 9A1. I'm thinking my next car is going to be a 997.2. I'll ping Flat 6 when I get a bit more serious, just musing for now.

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Been there, done that (FYI, when the engine grenades, sometimes you don't hear a sound) and essentially 40k$ later ended up with a 997, whose interior (IMHO) is much nicer than my old 2002 996.

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Jake has to malign the 9A1 in order to create future business. Just like he has done with the 996.1, 996.2 and 997.1. The 997.2 engine is as robust as they come... So far.

Not if you google : "9A1 porsche engine problems" and read Jake's Facebook page of the issue.

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Based on my post, why would I bother to visit Jake's Facebook page. I lived through enough fear mongering when I owned my 996. And now. The rest is all Rennlist and 6speed speculation. Such a shame (as with the 996) that a great car might still give people second thoughts. After all, there is no such thing as an engine with a 0% failure rate. I have commended Jake many times on making a nice business convincing Pcar owners they were driving time bombs...

And people wonder why I stopped sharing information. Fact is the .2 engines are just coming into their prime... They aren't going to dealers as much, and people are starting to see what they are like under the skin. This is evident with the attendance and requests for the .2/ DFI engine classes here. Two years ago I couldn't fill more than 3 seats, but in my last class I had 20 techs. All of a sudden people need to learn about them, overnight. Never fear, I built my first one in 2010, we've got it covered. You'll never hear me say anything good or bad about it though.

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Now that's refreshing...

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While being highly uninformative.

Thanks Jake ...for the nightmares. Got a new 991 GTS last year via European delivery. Engine break-in was done on German roads, 2,000 miles, not exceeding 4,000 RPM. (“Break it in correctly and the engine will last longer and perform better”. ) Oil was first changed at 900 miles then again at 2000 miles, just before dropping off the car at the factory. Oil was changed again after the car was delivered to me in the US, this time switching to Castrol 0W-40. Will stay with this oil from now on, oil changes every 4000 miles or every 6 months whichever comes first. As of today I have a little over 11000 miles, zero issues. I plan to keep this car as my daily driver as long as possible and I plan to do all the car maintenance myself. Should I start by attending your classes now? When I should expect problems to occur? What should I pay attention to? Thanks!

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When the time is right, I'm quite sure you will eventually share with all of us the many potential failure possibilities of the 9A1.

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Sounds like you've done everything right to this point. All I am willing to say is "Just drive it" and perform oil services at 6 months/ 5K miles, no matter what any directive may tell you, and no matter where that directive comes from. You can employ UOA to monitor TBN and wear metals, to help grade your particular engine, in your particular car, with you driving it. These 3 variables change the game enough that across the board, blanket statements can't be made. I have no plans to create an enthusiast focused 9a1 Engine Class at this time, or anytime in the near future. At the present, and for at least the next 4-5 years the classes will be focused on the Technicians that see these cars routinely in their shops.

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That'll be a cold day in Hell. I'm done.

I for one LOVE the interior of my 996.2 It is "spartan" - nothing extra - no frills - just the basics - exactly how a Sports Car should be! to me, the 997 interior feels like it is trying to hard - but I haven't spent that much time in them

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No, I don't have nearly enough self-loathing to be Tavarish. I have never understood the anti-996-interior hate. Sure, it's got plastic in it. And carpet. And vinyl. And maybe some leather if you're lucky. My '96 Corvette, "America's Sports Car" from close enough as matters the same era as the 996, is full of soft-touch-coated plastic that peels off, terrible leather on the seats, exposed screws holding on the A-pillar trim, and squeaks and rattles a-plenty. Compared to that interior, the 996 is pretty damn nice. But the real "wut?" moment is when a 70's-era 911 owner rags on the 996's interior. 70's 911 interiors look like a set from Gilligan's Island. Until the 996, Porsche refused to install cupholders in their interiors - it seems obvious that the interiors were meant to be utilitarian. The 996 interior is just that - utilitarian, with one or two niceties and some really odd crap like the whole wiper delay setup. If you need a place to sit down, shift gears, and watch the world go by at ludicrous speed, the 996 works just fine. If you want a rolling living room, buy a Bentley. Or a Winnebago.

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Jake ,please ignore those who bait and vilify.Note they seldom offer any help to the rest of us -unlike you.They do not read links that provide relevant technical information, they just vandalize an otherwise enjoyable, interesting Thread with ad hominem nastiness. Please don't let them win.They only do it to get attention. Sad.Ignore them.

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Agreed - both before and after owning one for a bit. If you get a decent center console and a bit of leather inside, it's pretty comfortable in my experience. The car is still pretty small relative to the new ones: there simply isn't room enough for the myriad controls and driver aids of the 991 stack. Being over 6' the option to center console delete is a nice touch that most cars don't offer - a clear throwback to the old utilitarian style imo. It's one of the few cars out there with a quality steering wheel that isn't over-designed, the tach is prominent for easy gear selection. Both the steering sensitivity and the generally utilitarian design with a few leather touches reminds me of the early 90s Saabs I grew up driving. I'm not sure if people realize this but you can refresh the interiors for relatively cheap. I've replaced most of the worn stuff in mine for a fraction of the retail cost by browsing dismantler sites for good condition pieces in the right colors. A few more pieces of better quality trim, a console delete and I'll be done with this one.

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Jake doesn't need you or anyone else sticking up for him. He's a big boy.

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Sometimes I wonder if he's aware how much the silent majority appreciates his inputs. There will always be an irascible, intolerant minority that attempts to troll prominent figures into exhaustion. The people that matter read, listen & benefit a great deal from his experience. Never hurts to reinforce that sentiment.

This has taken an interesting turn. I definitely appreciate the input, but I'd be lying if I didn't say knowledge of the 24 modes of failure doesn't sully the experience a bit. It's why I'm wondering if the 997.2 is more reliable.

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Aint no way to get a cheap, reliable 911 you don't need a rainy day fund to maintain. Buy a DFI engine and you'll get higher upfront cost, more depreciation, and possibly the need for a top end rebuild before you'd expect. Buy a 996 for cheap and you get low upfront cost, negligible depreciation and may require a rebuild depending on the engine's condition and your maintenance regimen. For me, looking at the entire class of 991 GT3/RS engines as throw-aways that have some cars on 3rd or 4th engines puts it in perspective. The new GT cars will have an RSR derived heart that's geared towards durability, so obviously there are some serious issues with a wide swath of the P-car lineup. Go in eyes open and enjoy whatever car fits your life circumstances. Seems like it's either go with a mezger design TT or GT 996/7 or accept the fact the engine will have expectancy of a rebuild near 1.0 over a 10 year period.

The 997.2 has been out since 2009. They're in the $40s, I think I'd take a serious look if they start dipping into the $30s. Reviews seem to be mixed, Rennlist leans towards bulletproof, Renntech is more checkered. My indy has told the 997.2 seems to be the way to go - conflict of interest I know, but these guys really don't need my business. What I don't want is selection bias, is it 1% or 10% of cars impacted? I'm looking to relocate and I'm not sure I want to hang on to the cab for a combination of reasons.

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The corvette, specifically the C4 corvette, was known for having one of the cheapest and worst interiors among sports cars. Comparing anything to that is setting the bar extremely low. The air cooled interiors are utilitarian and old looking. But they are classic and THATs what people love. Its the same as comparing a Omega Speedmaster pro with a G-shock. The G-shock is more useful and more accurate with more features, but a classic, it is not. The traditional 60s style interior is a major draw for me for the 993. I have a 993, a 997, and a 986 (with even cheaper interior materials). The design is just so painfully dated. Just like 60s muscle cars are dated but cool, yet 80s cars just look painfully dated. It was porsches first attempt with a new style, and it was organically shaped in the same bad way as the 90s taurus. Weird ovals and odd swoops every which way. Its not the worst interior in the world, but its hardly an example of porsche at its best. FWIW, the 997 interior, while looking much better in my eyes, is also not really a high quality unit. My w220 S-class interior assembly quality blows it out of the water, and that was not considered a high point for MB. Some people may not care about interiors, but its where I spend my time while driving, so its important to me.

The whole interior thing cracks me up! Is the 996 interior that of a new Bentley or Rolls? No, but it is a 20 year old interior design! To bitch about the interior of a 20 year old is a bit ridiculous. If you want a nice interior I'm sure you can get one in a brand new Camry or Accord but you'll pay a lot more than a 996 price. These are old cars now. Mine is a '99. What other 1999 cars in the $15K to $20K price range can give you the same driving experience that would have a nicer interior? I don't daily my car and only use it for occasional blasts on country / mountain roads. I really wouldn't care if the whole interior was made of cardboard! Oh, and I don't care about the headlights ether! I can't see them when I am behind the wheel. I also believe 100% that if the Boxster had different headlights no one would care about the 996 headlights!

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There is - or should be - a distinction between "classic" and "never bothered to improve it."

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E46 M3 has a much nicer interior and a pretty damn good driving experience. But why improve what works. To porsche, the classic interior provided excellent view of the instrumentation, a shifter, handbrake, and thats it. Because the focus was driving, not fiddling with hvac controls, cupholders, radio, etc. Thats not to say they didn't improve the comfort and useability between the 60s cars and the 993, but why fix what wasn't broken?

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Yes, but...are your ***** sticky?

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E39 M5 would fit the bill too, though it has a more muscle car feel than the 996. It'll outrun our cars in a line and mostly keep up in the bends, so I'd put it on the list. The E46 interior is one of my favorite of all time though, even my F30 isn't as nice. So I might just be biased.

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You just need to wash your **** with some soapy water and it's not sticky then

I think the 996 looks way better than the 997. Especially the rear. It just looks so right - the line from the bumper to the lights is one line and horizontal. Look at the line on the rear of the 997.1 comes down from the rear lights at an angle- different to the bumper line and the 997.2 does same but weirder. The 996 is still a 911 - small sports car. The 997 looks bigger/chunkier. I like that the 996 doesn't have the big hips - it's tight and aerodynamic looking, clean. The lights - have really grown on me and as others have said - they are more aerodynamic looking and a step on from old. The new 911 has gone more oval and domed like an older Ferrari or something. I think the 2001-2004 lights look great - really sporty. The interior as others have said was new - a change and looks less dated than the return to the past that is the 997.