Confused about Quality

Until I bought my Cayman 6 weeks ago, my wife and I drove only Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords. We never had a single major problem with either and all lasted at least 100,000 miles. We changed the oil and rotated the tires, and that was it. But after buying my Cayman, I'm reading constant, identical complaints here about engines that suddenly shut off, low coolant warnings that can't be fixed, trunk clunk noises, constant rattles that can't be fixed, a large number of clutch failures, problems shifting into various gears, etc. I paid 3 times the amount for my Cayman that I ever did for any Honda or Toyota, and naturally expected higher quality, not lower. What am I missing here? Someone give me some optimistic comments before I totally regret this purchase.

I have not had any of those problems. Plus you are at a site for people who have much higher expectations and are enthusiatcs (i.e. problaby obessess about everything with the car). While there may be more variance in quality than a company that puts out 100,000 of each type of car a year, I think also people here are more . . . particular. In terms of faults, I think you would have to go to a "Honda" site and compare. Is there one?

Chaz, You're on an automotive forum and I would say that most of the people that visit here only post when they have questions or issues that cannot be solved by other means. We don't represent the entire Cayman database. The Cayman won initial quality by JD Powers and has really improved Porsche's quality ratings. In the end, I can tell you from first hand experience that Porsche stands by their product 100%, and if an unfixable problem ever occurs they make it right by putting you into a new car. - Suneet

In my garage right now are two Honda's and a Cayman. Don't get misled by these posts you are referring too. I have 8000 miles on the Cayman and not a single issue, well just one - I wish it had more power ;-) Ignoring price, I think Honda, Toyota and Porsche are at the top of the list for quality. What sets Porsche aside is performance and capability. You will never go around a corner in a Camry like you will in a Cayman. edo

Whew Thanks for those replies. I guess I started to imagine all sorts of problems creeping up. I love driving this car, but reading this section, I was starting to get a bit concerned. Actually, this section is good. I never even considered checking my coolant levels. But tomorrow morning you bet I'll go out and see if it's below the MIN line. (That's how you do it, right?) I have noticed sounds such as metal straining as I go around curves sort of fast, but maybe that's just normal. And the shifting into gear isn't always the smoothest, but maybe it takes time to iron out. I think the important point is that Porsche will stand behind its cars and make sure they are repaired when a problem arises.

Chaz- After 20K miles as a daily driver (120 mi r/t), I have experienced no problems with this car - it's the best car I have ever owned. Once you've passed the 2K break-in period and have a chance to test the limits of this incredible machine, all of your concerns will fade into a distant memory.

take a read.. ..of this: Six Sigma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I would imagine Porsche has some sort of quality control and it is expected that some cars will have defects.

Crocket Man I like that answer a lot!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd expect the trouble free life of a Camry used as I use the Cayman to be, maybe one track weekend, if that long. My Porsches, including the CS, have been extremely reliable. My last one was as tight and solid after 10 years as it was when new.

Thanks STLPCA That's another reassuring comment.

The Cayman is one of the most capable sports cars in the world. Mine has been trouble free and it is my eight Porsche out of about 60 cars I've owned. Some people cannot help complaining about trivial issues when in my view they should scream "but I don't care this car is just too much fun to worry about trivial matters". And man some of the complaints are trivial.

Dear Chaz: Thanks for asking this question. After reading the forums I was beginning to wonder the same thing. The responses to your thread have eased my concerns. Thanks again!

I consider quality and reliability to be different things. Hondas and Toyotas are famous for their reliability. Consumer Report has reported higher reliability for the Japanese cars than the German cars for decades. It's considered a major accomplishment when a Porsche can reach even average reliability (Mercedes reliability is even worse). All three of our Hondas were/are much more reliable than any of my four Porsches. For example, nothing has ever gone wrong with our 2005 Honda Pilot, but I took my new CS back to the dealer four times for fixes in the first few months. Yet, I still consider the Porsche to be of high quality in both design and build. Part, but only part, of the difference in reliability is due to the different ways we use the two. I've never autocrossed and tracked the Honda; or even driven it in a spirited manner on the road. The Honda has an easy life.

I agree, Honda and Toyota reliability is as good as it gets. The other thing to bear in mind is that the Cayman is a new car and a lot of the posts here are from people who had the first cars. There will always be some 'teething' issues with a new model; I had one of the first Honda S2000's - it had two recalls, new wheels and a gear box rebuild within the first year under warranty. The Cayman has shown itself to be very reliable to date and, in my opinion, the quality is very high, higher than anything comparable from BMW, Mercedes or Honda/Toyota. And Porsche support is good, I've had the clutch issue and was very reassured by how it was dealt with. Anyhow, it's a highly tuned sports car, it's entitled to be a bit highly strung (think Claudia Schiffer)

My CS is a May 2006 build that I purchased in November. Now with 6000 miles, I have had not a single problem (OK, what's going to happen tomorrow that I've hexed myself). Of the "premium" level new cars I have purchased since 2000, I can not say the same thing: I was on a first name basis with the Service Mgr at Audi with my 2000 A6. Mostly aggravating little things, but fought fuel delivery problems almost the entire life of the car. My 2001 BMW 330ci had several minor issues within the first year, mostly related to the new 3.0 engine but the turn signal indicator falling out in the first 2 weeks certiainly wasn't related to it. I had this car for 6+ years, 54,000 miles, included over 3000 miles on the track, and all I have for this car is praise - letting it go was hard to do. My 2006 CooperS, well, let's say it seemed to have every "common / known" problem related to the build period, minor and major. I won't go into the challenges with getting things properly fixed in a timely manner. It was traded in on the CS 14 months after delivery, and while no comparison to the Porsche, I actually miss it. As touched on above, "quality" has several components: design and engineering which can be futher broken down based on intended use; component quality as delivered outside the engineering / design parameters (meaning a well designed part, can be delivered not meeting the specs); component quality as it relates to materials used (leather vs pleather); and assembly quality; and finally, expectations of the user. "Generic" cars can have very high component and assembly quality such as a Toyota Camry, while the engineering is done to simpifly assembly, and is done to provide a generally satisfying experiece to someone who really doesn't care (think focus on accuracy within a wide range, not precision). Not to mention, material quality become irrelevant as long as it meets functional expectations. Simple product, simple assembly, long development / use window for components, and low expectations of the user outside basic transportation. And while there will be component defects that get through, given the high volume, the affected %s of a bad component build series gets lost well to the right of the decimal point. Sports cars can be built from the generic model to the hand built exotica of a Ferarri. Obviously, a Porsche is built on an assembly line with some of the general build paramters and limitations of a more generic car, but with a much greater focus on design / engineering for performance, components requireing much tighter tolerances while being built in much smaller quantities and with higher quality materials (look at the plastics in an Audi, Porsche, or BMW and compare them to a Toyota or Chevy), and built for an extremely demanding customer. Precision is of utmost concern, which is much harder to acheive than general accuracy over a wide range. Given all that, most of what people are having issues with are component failures (probably as supplied by a 3rd party) such as the clutch and slave cylinder issues, and very few design / engineering problems other than maybe the trunk clunk. If 100 bad slave cylinders are delivered to Porsche, and the time from build to the customer is 2 months, you can end up with 3 months worth of questionable components getting out before you know you have a problem. Then, given the smaller quantities built it can be more of a challenge to determine if you have a major problem or minor problem (is it 100 bad parts out of a 100, it is 100 bad parts out of 500 or a 1000, what is the inherant problem and can it be easily identified, and what is the most effective way to deal with fixing it? With the clutches, tearing open every tranny to check the bolts when it may be 5% of the cars over a given period simply isn't a reasonable solutuion for anyone; it becomes a wait and see senario, while it can be said that communication between the factory, dealer, and customers may be able to be improved so that surprises can be minimized................ And as with high expectations of the customer, well, we are a demanding group of people. I can say that when I get in the cars of friends or business colleagues, in most cases, they'd never know they have a "trunk clunk" because of all the junk rolling around in thier trunk, under the seats, clattering in the cup holders, etc., much less even notice most other mechanical nuances. I don't know how many people I've ridden with and told them they better check thier tire balance and shocks, because something obviously is way messed up. And as far as worrying about the quality of materials, spilled sippy cups, leaking diapers, and fast food drips ruin things well before they would have any concerns about the actual quality of the materials being used. I could go on, but time to get back to work.............. In closing, enjoy your new car, and don't let the paranoia ruin the experience!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We've had more problems with our Honday Odyssey minivan than we have with our Cayman S, and our most recent problem with the Honda was outside of the warranty because we had 38,000 miles and they are covered for 3 years or 36,000 miles only. The Porsche warranty is better and we reached 38K miles on our minivan in 2.5 years, I don't consider 2.5 years much of a warranty...

Errrrrr 38,000 miles in ya minvan......thats way too much track time for the poor thing Be nice to minivans! lol

my guess would be that folks tend to report problems; i've had none <knock on wood> and i am just now reporting that after 16000 plus miles. if there is similar camry or honda acxcord website, my guess is you would see problems reported there as well. as for the camry, imho it has just terrible brakes -- at least the one i owned anyway,

So, anyway, Chaz, how do you like your new Cayman? Have been admiring it and your color combo. Are you satisfied? I think no matter what car forum or any kind of forum for that matter you may come across people who have trouble with products.

What a Croc & Others First the bad news....if it could be considered bad. I just read about 3,200 miners being trapped and suffocating in an African Gold Mine, so my "problems" about a luxury sports car aren't really worthy of losing sleep over, right? Anyway, I went to check the coolant level today and found it was below the MIN mark. I saw no fluid. After talking to my salesman and the service manager, I added 1-1/2 cups of distilled water, drove it for 20 minutes, then went golfing. When I got home, I went to check on the coolant level in the Cayman. I started to twist off the cap and hear a gurgling sound, then a sudden gush of water flushing from under the car. I looked under the car and saw a puddle of fluid near the right rear tire. I wiped it up and it seemed to be odorless. Then I started the car and drove it, without any problems, for about 15 minutes. I have no idea what just happened, but I have a call into the dealer. Now, back to your question. I LOVE driving this car. It handles incredibly, I love how it takes turns, and it feels pretty powerful to me on the highway. I'm still a bit cautious of driving too fast (over 80mph) because of all the State Police cars out on Rt. 1 in Delaware, but I let her go now and then. Tonight, I drove into downtown Lewes, and went through a narrow path that goes by an outdoor bar, and a group of women saw my car going by and yelled, "Whoa! Look at that." I smiled and waved as I drove by, and thought to myself, "This car just became worth all the money I paid for it."

Chaz, it is not a good idea to check coolant level on a hot car. The cooling systems are under presure then, and one can be scalded by a eruption of hot coolant when the cap is removed. I think that your coolant 'burped' out of the filler and drained out from the service pocket in the trunk. It could have been worse! Marty

Marty, Thanks Marty, Well, as you know, I'm not very car smart, but I'm learning. I figured that after three hours of sitting, I'd be able to twist off that cap without a problem. Wrong. Anyway, the service manager called to today. He said what happened was no big deal, and that fluid backed up into an overflow area before being expelled. It wasn't much fluid that came out, no puddle. I wiped it up with a paper towel and it barely got it wet. We got to talking and he told me that he honestly considers the Porsche, and the Cayman in particular, as one of the best built cars ever made. He said they very rarely have problems with a Cayman, and have never had a clutch failure issue, or coolant suddenly pouring out. I know he's biased and a company man, but he really did sound sincere when he told me that. He pointed out that I have a 4-year warranty to fix any problem, but he doubted it would ever get to that. I was impressed that he took the time to call me yesterday and today without me bugging him to do so.

I've owned several marques, Honda, Volvo, Nissan, MB, Lexus, Porsche ... Lexus and Porsche stands out as being the best in quality. Honda is engineering quality, but they don't sweat the small stuff and that's what gives me hell. The rest is gives me too much problems. That being said, my Cayman does CREAK if I take off aggressively, at the small window behind the driver's window. And they seem to have a design defect for RHD cars where you can actually feel the hydraulic brake and clutch pipes. Other than that I have no issues. As for the Lexus, it never has ANY issue whatsoever no matter how anal I am.

Excellent point, stueys! Among the cars that I’ve owned I can include four Audis, three BMWs, four Mercedes, and four Jeeps. Of all the cars in that list the Jeeps gave me the fewest problems (no problems actually) but those models had been in production a long time. A 3-series BMW, an Audi A6 and an E Class Mercedes are the cars that gave me the most problems and all three of those cars where in their first year of production. My Cayman has had a few minor problems - a "clunk" and the third-brake-light seal - but nothing that would make me trade it in for something else. I think it has an excellent record for a relatively new car.

Don't let the complaints drive you to panic. It's a forum, and complaints are plentiful. That doesn't mean there's anything to be worried about. As suggested by JD Powers, I think you will find the Cayman is extremely reliable. Have there been little problems? Sure. It's a car. But even if you look at the most common problem, the clutch issues, you will find that there are something like 70 affected cars in this entire club. We have >6,250 members and Porsche has sold tens of thousands of Caymans. 70 broken clutches is nothing in the grand scheme. Things to keep in mind: Porsche owners are a demanding bunch. One little issue, and the complaints are flying. This is probably a product of the premium price tag raising expectations. Would a Camary owner join a club and post complaints about: BOSE system is intolerable (subjectively) Water is dripping from my hatch after washing Fog light bulbs that are different in color than the headlights Seatbelt chime actually rings when my seatbelt is not used Tire Pressure monitor reads a few lbs different than my gauge Climate control can't be turned off (it can) My engine used 4/10ths of a quart of oil I can't see my wing. Is it up or down? I can't plug in my iPod OK, you get the point....... You can take a Cayman to 10 track events and the only thing you'll be replacing are the tires and brake pads. Try that with Camary or Accord and you might as well junk the car afterwards. Problems are going to happen, even on the best cars. It's how the company handles the problems, and I think you will find that Porsche places your satisfaction above all things.

I've learned it's about luck. Toyotas and Hondas have not been so kind to my family. My '99 Toyota Camry:2 Transmission replacements (Auto) by 150,000 miles. My '99 Toyota Camry: Exhaust Rusted Out ~80,000 miles. My '99 Toyota Camry: Electrical system went slightly nuts, no interior lights at ~70,000 miles My '00 Mother's Lexus RX300: Transmission replacement needed at 78,000 miles. My '99 Honda Civic: Wheel Bearings went at ~110,000 miles My '99 Honda Civic: Exhaust Rusted out ~100,000 miles Friend's '95 Hond Accord: Radiator, suspension, exhaust rusted out..car has less than 90,000 miles on it. Friend's '01 Acura TL: Transmission went, once under warranty, once outside of it. On the other end of the spectrum... '95 Ford Windstar..no issues until 168,000 miles. Then the transmission went. '87 BMW 325es: No issues until 175,000 miles. Then water pump went. '93 Ford Taurus SHO: No issues until 140,000 miles, then power steering went. '95 Dodge Caravan: No issues up to 230,000 miles There's always complaints a message board, and sometimes it just depends. For example, my Volvo S60R was in the shop for 3 months within the first year I owned it. I went in for warranty repair work at least 4 times, and despite people complaining about a similiar clunk the issues I went in were seperate and I never had the problems ppl complained about on the baord.

I have had my CS for just about a year and 9500 miles. I have had no problems and enjoy driving it every day.

I don't remember the exact date, but I've had my car right at a year now, it'll have 17K miles on it by the time I get home tonite. I have put one quart of oil in it, replaced one blown-out tire early on (still on that and the other original rear), and had a Porsche tech friend of mine perform the "Rainer fix" on my rear hatch clunk. Other than that I've done nothing but put gas in it and drive, including two autocrosses and a 4000 mile cross country trip. It continues to put a smile of my face every time I get behind the wheel. Toyotas and Hondas are appliances, for my "everyday" driving I have an Audi A3, probably not as reliable as the Japanese but much more fun to drive.