Engine rebuild

I have read god knows how many threads about liner types and pistons and my head is spinning. It seems that most engine builders use iron or ductile iron liners and Wossner pistons but every thread so far goes the same way - Hartech use nikosil liners so go to Hartech. Bottom line is this, the price of a rebuilt engine with 6 iron liners and Wossner pistons for my particular circumstances is coming in at £6k, an equivalent from Hartech would be more than double this, if not three times as much as I need a new crankcase. Any thoughts? I would love a Hartech engine but the sums just don't add up, if I had to go that route I would scrap the car for parts.

Sorry to hear this, have you spoken to them? Grant is very helpful and they would appreciate you at least talking to them. I assume you would get the whole car to whoever? any 996 will end up costing more due to wear and tear, so a cheap quote can soon shoot up in costs.

You have many various options with an engine build and at the end of it all the most important thing IMHO is the quality of the Engineering work, i.e. boring out the blocks and fitting new liners as well as other machining modifications Hartech do to improve the robustness and longevity of the engine. I know what goes on down there and also how some other places do stuff. People seem to think re-boring blocks, installing liners, etc. is a straight forward task that's done the same by everyone. Trust me, it isn't. If cost is the main driver here I'd speak to Hartech and ask how much each process is. You can then do the maths and see if there's an option that suits you that would make a huge difference on cost. Perfect example of this is infrasilver 's rebuild: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=141208&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=144

In my experience, generally you always get what you pay for. The cost of Nikisil liners and pistons over the iron ones is probably maximum £1K, I'd hazard that actually it's less. The rest of the money is surely down to other parts needed or fitted and labour costs. Sure, your being quoted £6K, but what would they charge if they did the same work as Hartech? As Alex says, do some research with Hartech, see what you "need" to have done and what you can avoid. Then go back to the others and compare apples with apples. I think Hartech will compare favourably. Parrs Porsche wanted something like £13K for an engine rebuild using iron liners. Refused to tell me who they used to supply the liners or pistons, or do the machining saying it was a trade secret. Extremely condescending attitude. Needless to say, if they didn't trust me I wasn't going to trust them..... Easy to hand out advice of course! It's your hard earned cash though... Good luck with whatever you choose

There you go! That thread went instantly to go Hartech sooner than I expected The bott My conundrum is this, for £12k or so I could buy a fully rebuilt engine using Porsche parts and Iron liners from a reputable Indy in Poland and still have change to bring the bodywork up to perfect condition. Plus I reckon I would still have a few quid to rebuild the rear suspension (much easier with the lump out). In which case I would keep the car forever as I always intended. Or, I throw in, sell as it is and see if that and maybe £15k gets me a nice TT. I could swallow the extra money for the thrills. I really can't justify spaffing over £12k on the car however much I love it and that simply wouldn't be possible with a Hartech engine regardless of the other things I would like to sort out, not when the gap between C4s and TT seems to be narrowing.

If your going to move it on maybe the Hartech option would sell the car easier, however I have had a read up on the Polish workshop and it's looks good bang for your buck 👍 End of the day it's your car, maybe you dropped on something good without the hartech price tag 👏

Sounds like you have your heart set on a titty. If that's so, go and do it. I bet if you're thrifty you'd not spend anywhere near £12k to have your car back on the road with a Hartech engine. Like I said - check infrasilver . If he's spent £12k on his rebuilt engine I'll eat my AOS. And one more thing - what happens if you get your engine done in Poland and 2 months later it drops a vale and munches the engine? Major headache.

I think your mind is set, this forum is very pro Hartech and that carries some value. so its likely its always going to gravitate to them! I assume you have spoken to them and thats the figure they think? Taking your engine to Poland would be an adventure, i cant vouch for the quality of the work. A well sorted 911 is going to hold value, plus its always going to be a 911. I spent the money having mine built and for me its a keeper, the C4s is arguably the best looking 996 and will sell easily if done right. owning a nice 911 is a journey not a destination and if your planning on keeping it, what's it matter if it takes a few years to get perfect.

Unless you aim to keep the car a long time a rebuild will cost money that you will not see again. It's a devil or deep blue sea situation. Sell as is. Fit a s/h motor. Full rebuild. I would cut and run in your position because there are enough people out there that believe that THEY can do it on the cheap.You can't but plenty still think they can.The only way to lessen the blow is if you provide the labour.If you pay someone to do the job then the figures wont stack up. Good luck in whatever you decide :thumb:

In your shoes I'd (as many have advised) call Grant at Hartech and talk through your situation, financial goal and so on - IIRC Hartech have said that the average cost of their rebuilds is around the 6k mark and that the ~12kish figure is the upper end. This was in response to me saying that the average build was said 12k mark. With that said, I think it would be great information for the forum and a great adventure for you if you went the Polish route and documented it. Given our new position vis-a-vis the ROW you get to write an old fashioned smuggling yarn as well as an engineering one.

Trouble is, if nobody tries any different routes, there will never be a possibility of another well tried solution that may be far more cost effective. Anytime someone's engine blows everybody on here just says 'speak to Hartech', obviously they're fantastic at what they do but that doesn't mean that they're the one and only solution.

Agreed with above comments. I'm sure iron liners done well, are an effective solution. For most of us on the 996 forum, I suspect that we were at the financial limit just to buy the car in the first place, crossing our fingers that we didn't get a dud or the engine went bang. When it does, I for one know your into the pain of deciding to cut your losses and move on, (there are many many other things that we and families want/need the same pot of money for) or throw more money at a car that will never repay the financial investment in it? Another option is to sell as is and buy another for less than £12k more, but I'd imagine you'd still want to do work to it to bring it up to what you want and you'll be crossing your fingers again. All I'd say is, personal loans are the cheapest they're ever likely to be, the best decisions don't always need to be justified and an Audi TT is a poor substitute :thumb:

Hello Hans Please excuse any typos - I'm on my iphone and have fat fingers. I'm not familiar with your particular set of circumstances but would be happy to chat on the phone about them and the various options open to you which will no doubt spring to mind (of course some of these options will involve what Hartech can offer but there are other routes open which we can discuss). I'm also happy to openly chat about liners, pistons etc with no bias - don't worry I'm not looking for work and set aside time each day to 'just chat". I'm out of the office today but will be back in on Monday. 01204 302809 option 1. I'm also confused as to how someone can offer you a level of work for £6000 and you suggest we may be £12000-£18000 but then are considering buying an engine for £12000 - what's wrong with the £6000 option ? And I can't believe that we'd be 3 times the cost of someone else. Something doesn't sound right ! Without knowing what's needed, I can't comment on the specifics but as a point of interest for readers, we would charge £5200 + vat to rebuild an engine and supply & fit a set of our cylinders plus piston rings. We have numerous piston options (including a stock of good used, refurbished & new from a variety of manufacturers including our own design) and there are of course many optional things over and above this, some of which we may insist on if we deem things too tired to re-use. We do sometimes find ourselves being compared to other providers who on the face of it look cheaper. Things generally aren't being compared like for like and I also make a point of trying to give prospective customers 'real world" information rather than just theoretical prices knowing full well it will be much higher. I also notice that we rarely get compared to providers who are more expensive (thanks James for pointing this out) - I'm currently in discussions with a prospective customer who's been quoted £3000 more than we would charge for equivalent work. People often think that we only offer the 'top level" packages which isn't the case. With the exception of capacity conversions (where we do insist on a certain package) we always start off with a foundation cost of what we deem as essential works only. This will cover fixing the fault whilst also ensuring nothing is refitted which is clearly close to the end of its life. We then introduce optional betterment to cater for the customer who wants a stronger engine for the future. Figures often get quoted for a Hartech rebuild which appear high but often this includes numerous areas of 'progressive opportune maintenance" such as coolant pipes, brake pipes, clutch, flywheel, engine mounts, coolant tank etc. A 'top level" build with all new cylinders, piston rings, crank bearings, chains, guide rails, converting the ims to a 'larger bearings" type, head overhauls, etc is around £7000 + vat (working with a 3.4 engine only with say just a scored cylinder). We don't claim to be the cheapest but certainly aren't the most expensive and I don't think there are others who are as well equipped as us and offer the same level of expertise and experience. Going back to your own case, I generally find you need a certain level of enthusiasm and commitment to these sorts of projects. It's easy to get resentful about it and IMHO your heart needs to be in it - if you've had your head turned by another model you may be best just selling the car as is and put your hard earned towards something else. Grant

You won't get better advise than that 👏👌 Fair to say each rebuild or restoration will cost somewhat different for us all.

Glad you've joined in, if you don't mind me asking, what's your opinion of AMS and did you get given build options on your rebuild?