Why is the 911 a Drivers Car?

Hey guys. I'm 911 shopping again. I'm determined to own one so I can experience the magic. Right now I have a Camaro SS with 420hp - not known for handling. In the winter I've spun it once, in the rain I've spun it once. Love the noise and straight line performance. But I want to experience handling for the first time in my life. And I just really want to see if the 911 is the magic car everyone says that it is. But here's what I don't get. Why is the 911 so great at handling? There seems to be two camps of people. One says it's the best handling drivers car. Period. The other camp complains the rear engine, and "poor weight distribution" makes the 911 tricky to drive because there's a "learning curve." One camp says it's so perfect a child could drive it, the other camp says it's tricky to master. I'd just love to hear some thoughts and reflections on this subject. I'll also add that I'm not very interested in the 4s because EVERY reviewer says the 4s takes a lot of the fun out of the 911 . I know exactly what they mean in terms of manual vs. automatic transmission. Auto handles stuff better, but who cares, it takes all the fun out of it. So if the 4s is easy to handle, but takes the fun out of it, not interested, haha! Also, not at all interested in the Cayman - need the backseat. Chiefly interested in the 997 as a pretty typical middle class guy But anyway, why is the 911 a great drivers car?

Do a session at the Atlanta PEC. Cheap way to find out if you like the car...

+1 ^ I think the Cayman or the Boxster is more of a driver's car and they both handle better than a 911 . PEC Atlanta has a mid-engine vs rear-engine experience. I've done it and it is great. 911S vs 981 Cayman S . 911 S has more acceleration, status and 2 more seats (albeit tiny). Boxster and Cayman own the turns.

Don't confuse handling with road holding. Ultimately, the Cayman / Boxster has more on-the-limit grip than the 911 , but the 911 is argued as being easier to contol when the limit is breached.

In the past, the rear engine bias of the 911 was a cause for concern and made handling a bit tricky. But, with each model, the engine has inched up and the electronics improved. The 911 is now a very easy car to drive. If you want more challenge you can shut down some of the nannies and feel the difference. I believe that the Cayman / Boxster might handle slightly better but I do not think that the difference, in normal driving, is all that significant. If you are taking the car out on the track, you might feel that difference but, otherwise, it is simply a question of what you want. I like the additional power of the 911 but would be satisfied with a 981S. Any of these cars is a well balanced machine and will feel significantly more planted that your current car. The 911 no longer has much of a learning curve but it does handle incredibly well. Good luck in your search.

You asked this is a Box/Cay forum. Now ask the same question in a 911 focused forum and you will get different answers. I agree with the others. Drive both and decide. Here is a short answer and I have owned both. Take a mid-engined car and rear engined (any) with no nannies. The mid-engine car is easy to drive. At the limit it will spin like a top. The 911 is a beast. Your tail will kiss the wall. They didn't call the GT2 the "widowmaker" as a joke. It created widows when unskilled drivers didn't understand how oversteer worked. Fast forward to today and its moot. Unless you are a professional race car driver, someone who gets paid by someone else to race their race car, I seriously doubt with today's nannies you will ever feel the difference on the street. You will feel the 911 squat down and push out of turns that no box/cay can do because of the power. But technology has made these discussions ridiculous. PAG has put 50 years of engineering into the 911 making it about a refined as possible.

997 C2S was my first Porsche. It's a great car. To answer your question just drive a few and see what you think. I think you would appreciate the steering feel and the responsiveness to inputs. The tricky oversteer behavior of early 911s has been engineered out. The 997 is easy to drive and quite stable. That said, in low grip conditions (rain-standing water) on summer tires you could spin it too. Have you done any car control training? or autoX or DE? As mentioned the Porsche center in Atlanta has a good program to illustrate 911 performance. They use the current gen 911s .

My guess, the OP never drove a Porsche. Maybe the 964, 993 & 996 generations when the engine was more at the rear and the 911 was less nannied, the spin was possible in inexperienced hands... I don't know because I didn't drive any. But from 997 the 911 became more easy to drive. And the 991 generation is glued to the asphalt, no matter how stupid the driver may drive unless he intentionally wants to kill himself. I don't want to get into the argument of which platform is better, the mid engine or rear engine Porsches, it's meaningless here. I owned both the 987 and currently the 991. And I can tell you nothing my Cayman could do, my 991 doesn't do and far better too. I'm not referring to performance, which is clear to the blind, I'm referring to stability and control. Choosing between a Chevy and a Porsche is a no-brainier IMO for Porsche wins in every single dimension except maybe the budget. Choosing between 981 /718 & a 911 comes to personal preferences that can be summed up by a test drive and allocated budget. And no matter which Porsche your mind would choose, your heart will continue to beat for both.

I've only had limited opportunities to drive 911s. The consensus I've heard from people is that all those quirks in handling you hear people talk about make the car incredible fun and engaging to drive with lots of personality. I also think there's a ***-swinging driving style that some people master and then cannot replicate in other cars, making them addicted to the 911 on a race track. It's an automotive legend. Whether you end up loving it or hating it, I doubt you'll feel your time was wasted.

With the 911 , you don't need a bag of kitty litter in the trunk during winters. The weight of the engine will take of that. People say the 911 is like a nose-heavy steel dart that is trying to fly backwards. ( don't know if that analogy is correct). In other words, its front end is always trying to swap places with the rear end. My friend has a 996 which I find hard to drive smoothly compared to my Boxster . Haven't driven the 991.1 or v2 for that matter. I am driver with fairly low skills but I find my 981 BS to be remarkably easy to drive very fast. The 911 is Porsche's flagship and they charge a pretty penny for it. The mid-engined Porsches used to be disparaged as the poor person's Porsche. Some still do.

Having driven a really old 911 at highway speeds backward (and then sideways, forwards and backwards again) I feel there is some validity to the old description of 911s , "A dart thrown backwards". I keep hearing the new ones are all better, but I have to wonder about low traction conditions. All these big grippy tires and nanny systems need friction to operate.

The 911 has power and weight to make it work. Problem with muscle cars is they got a heavy front and the rear swings and spins all over the place with power....and you get understeer like crazy in turns because the rear wheels don't get enough traction compared to the front. The oppose problem happens to the 911 ...rear is planted and controlled, but his leads to oversteer, which is harder to control and far more dangerous...yet you need low or no understeer for the "feel" of the best handling. Cayman / boxster have a balance of both...means instead of the front or rear swinging out, it spins. Depending on conditions and how you drive, it will under or oversteer. None of this really matters for street driving...it's only at the limit and applies to faster speeds with corners. So why do these cars handle well? Because the limit is really high and hard to reach (unless you're driving one ice). Sports car focus on chassis weight balance, but muscle cars have a cheap chassis with a big engine...great for 0-60 bragging rights, fast street driving, comfy driving, and hauling heavy people. Driving "a good handling" car means you can position it where you want it instead of fighting drifting. Poor handling cars feel a sailboat. I personally notice a HUGE difference in how my boxster handles much better than other cars. You get used to it and then driving other cars can be frustrating for longer durations. The boxster you can just keep going and the noise or rougher ride is going to become tiresome way before he actual driving. Other cars your brain and hands get tired of having to do a lot of steering correction.

The Cayman is a surgical instrument, very precise and telepathic in its handling - it simply goes where you want it to. The 911 requires you to focus to hook it up and control the balance and when you do, are rewarded with being shot out of corners, rapid acceleration off the line. Both fun to drive, but were I forced to choose, I'd take the 911 over the Cayman .

My VW Beetles definitely had rear ends that wanted to be in front.

I have both the 997 and 981 , they are both easy to drive. The 997 isn't like the 964 and 993's in handling as already explained above. You don't have that pendulum feeling, with all the electronics, it hardly feels like a rear engine car. The 997 is a great looking car and fun to drive while still looking very modern. I love mine.

Those are valid questions you ask... First of all when people say 911 is difficult to drive - it's anecdotal evidence. Older models 911 were required considerable skill to drive at the limit, and so that's what people say now. Newer models like 997 and 991 are very easy. As to "drivers car" - it all depends on definition you include. Any manufacturer can slap that slogan, and BMW especially likes it, when BMW's today are very far from the any definition of "drivers car". Most car oriented people will agree drivers car = fun car, fun to drive. Not just to get from point A to point B with most comfort. Fun to drive usually translates to low weight, great firm handling, responsive steering, motor power. Somewhat in that order... Now if you look at weights of SS vs 911 - you'll see the former is almoust 1000lbs heavier. You can compare handling and steering during your own test drive... And yes, Boxster/Cayman are generally considered much better handling cars. 911 back seats are a joke, and only good for kids under 5... So I would not rely on back seats. Both cars are generally two seaters. It's just you can squeeze somebody into the back of 911, but only for short and uncomfortable for all ride.

A lot of this boils down to personal preference, and what generation of 911 is being discussed. I find the 991s very stable but a tad numb, whereas the 997s are very easy to drive quickly and safely with the electronic nannies turned on, and just a bit more tail happy with them tuned off (but nothing like old 911s ). As a point of reference, the past 3 winters my 997.2 GTS has been a DD, and about half the time when the roads are snowy/icy, I turn PSM off so the car slides around a bit. (Ok...a lot, lol.) It's way more fun than our Cayman in these situations, and completely controllable with a combination of throttle and steering. By comparison, the Cayman will slide...until the low polar moment rears its head and the car rotates. In my view, each platform has its pluses and minuses. The Cayman / Boxster is more neutral, which inspires confidence in most drivers, who equate their sense of confidence, the directness of the steering and the "planted feel" of the car (which has as much to do with tires as the chassis, at least on the street and up to 8/10s on a track) with "better handling." 911s - up to the 997 but excluding the 991 - feel what is best described as more "lively," which is to say the steering isn't as uniformly weighted as the Cayman /Boxter, and can actually feel light and a bit chattery when powering hard out of a corner. It's more pronounced on the track, and for those comfortable with working with the physics it's a joy to play with. Puttering around town, I maintain most drivers would be hard-pressed to tell from the driver's seat feedback whether they are in a mid-engine or a rear-engine Porsche. I find it's actually a little easier to navigate and hoon around town in the Cayman because it feels smaller and lighter. It is...but only a couple of inches shorter and less than 200 pounds heavier than my GTS ( Cayman with PDK compared to GTS with 6-speed and LWBs). As Chows said, you'll find a lot of love for mid-engine Porsches here, and a smidge of animosity toward 911s , for a variety of reasons. Head on over to the 911 forums on ******** and you'll find camps of 911 diehards, and little talk of Caymans /Boxsters being the "best-handling Porsches." Even the GT4 only gets grudging respect from the GT3 and GT2 crowd. Ultimately, all that matters is the size of the grin YOU get behind the wheel of the Porsche you eventually buy. I have a foot in both camps, and appreciate each platform for what it is. I'm grinning all the time no matter what Porsche I'm in, due in some measure to the fact I come at the marque with few pre-conceived notions about what is "best" or even what makes a Porsche unique. Heck, I can see myself in a 718 at some point down the road, which at this stage of the game is akin to blasphemy to many of the flat-6 "purists" here. Enjoy the the search for your car. It's half the fun.

before you dismiss the Carrera 4, you may find it intersting to read what Chris Harris is quoting about Walter Rohrl. https://grrc.goodwood.com/road/drives-and-rides/porsche-911-chris-harris#dp8Z5EDAmdp1Yo8F.97

The 911 is called a drivers car because Porsche does not yet have a self driving car so all 911 's require drivers. :hilarious: Or what other people said above...

I rest my case. Granted this driver is better than the 911 drivers but there are plenty of examples including from my own GoPro. 911s own the straights. 981s own the turns. 1:50 and on.

You know that is meaningless. You have to have the exact same driver in both cars. That logical fallacy has become old. You can try to rationalize your choice by finding anecdotal data all day long and it will never change the hard facts, Just go to the Ring numbers.

That video shows a GT3 owner who is tippy-toeing around the track. He/she has no clue how to set the car up for a corner, and is afraid to use the prodigious tire and chassis grip baked into the GT3.

I agree and I think I referenced that point, albeit subtlety. I've driven both cars back to back and the 911 owns the straights and the 981 owns the turns. It really is that simple. I'm not knocking either car. I'm going to own both soon enough. Yep.

I enjoy asking my wife. Her answers are often refreshing as she cares nothing about chat room arguments or car magazine stats. Yet, having been born and raised in Brazil she grew-up with Ayrton Senna posters in her bedroom and knows how to drive seriously fast (Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, Maserati, Audi R8, NSX she loves them all). With zero education in one brand over another, or which model is more prestigious, her insights are refreshingly impartial. We went to the track for her birthday and rented a 997S (as I was thinking about buying one)...and I asked her what she thought. "I feel the extra HP, but I feel extra weight & size that cause it to lose that go-cart feeling that I felt in the Cayman ." After reading hundreds of books, thousands of magazines, and millions of threads... I agree with what my wife said in her "seat of the pants test". The 911 over the last 15 years feels bigger and heavier and it makes the modern 911 feel like a GT car instead of a go-cart. That is where I'd focus in your test drive. (Don't get me wrong, I still love 911 's but I"m trying to make a point that the 911 isn't the only choice out there) I'm like many others on this board... went in to buy a 911 and made the mistake of test driving a Cayman . Funny how the stats when it comes to weight and overall dimensions don't always tell you how a car will feel when you drive it. The Cayman and Boxster create a little magic that is greater then the sum of their parts... and that turned out to be the hallmark of a drivers car for me.

But, as always, there are two sides to every coin. I went to the dealer to buy a Cayman and ended up with a 911CS. Drive both, not on a 5 minute test drive, and see what you prefer. Your point of reference from previous car experiences will have a lot to do with your choice. Coming from something larger, the 911 does not feel big and heavy at all. The handling is great and, as a daily driver, I prefer the feel. It's a subjective choice and I still like the Cayman but I'm very happy with the 911 .

To subshooter, Are you getting the base Carrera? I am envious.

One last thing, I mentioned in the past that the 991CS was a CPO car with 3000 miles on it. The price differential from that to a new Cayman S with similar options was very slight and made the choice even easier for me True but if you compared the used 991S to a used 981S, the significant price difference would reappear. I also owned a 997S and had every intention of replacing it with a 991S. Fortunately I test drove a 981 BS before I placed my order. After a prolonged test drive, I couldn't justify the nearly $35K premium for the 991S. Is the 991S superior to a 981S? It certainly is by any objective performance criteria. Is the 991S worth $35K more than a 981S? Each buyer has to answer that question. In my case the answer was no, but for others it may be yes, particularly if they can use that rear seat for transporting their kids.

No argument but to get what I wanted in the Cayman , I had to buy new, no CPO available. The 991CS was about 8k more than a new Cayman . I also do not think I would pay 35k more for the 911 but I'm happy with my choice and would make that choice again. I'm not saying it is superior, just different.