Changing oil viscosity to track my 996

I know there are dozens of oil threads, but I don't recall seeing this particular question answered. Should I swap from Moble115W50 to Driven XP9 10W40 when I track my car, or should I use something else? My car has always run Moble1 15W50 since it was purchased new. My 996 has spent its entire life in upstate South Carolina (relatively warm weather). The first owner was Michelin Research and Development and they used it at their Spartanburg SC test facility where they installed a roll cage, Euro GT3 seats, and put 42,000 miles on it. They purchased it from Brumos Porsche in the spring of 1998 when the water cooled cars first went on sale. I'm not sure which oil Porsche had in it when they bought it, but I am theorizing Michelin went with 15W50 since that is what the air cooled cars ran, and since there would be a lot of hot weather driving. I am the third owner and the car currently has 92k miles. The engine is the original low serial number M96.01. I will be installing the LN Engineering 2 quart deep sump kit. As I recall from reading one of the other oil threads, the LN folks recommend the deep sump mod, using a low foaming oil (such as XP9), and running low in the dip stick range to keep the AOS from getting overwhelmed and getting excessive oil in the intake. I will be running it at Road Atlanta later this month when the track will be as hot as the surface of the sun.

More important than the weight is the oil type. I would run an oil not succeptible to aeration. If you�ve noticed, 15w50 is not an approved weight for your engine. The 15w/50 is still not too thick for temps above freeezing for cold starts, but on the track, makes little difference. So it�s either 40w or 50w, either is fine. If your car runs hot, then 50. If it runs normal and/or won�t be hot outside, 40 is fine.

Driven XP9 for the track then switch back to DT40 for the street. That pretty much takes all the guess work out of it. Can't go wrong with those products.

I think at the track you could use a w50 or even a w60. Your engine internals will get anyways up to a temperature range where w50 or w60 oil characteristics are perfectly useable even maybe preferred! Spirited street use the oil goes from 90-105degC.At the track you will see 105degC and higher up to 115-120degC even. So a w50 or even a w60 grade would be perfectly fine. Forget further about viscosity. What matters is the capability of an oil to hold its hot film strength even at those locations in the engine where temperatures locally get much hotter then your meters tell you. Viscosities do not tell the whole story.

Just ran my E39M5 at Road Atlanta over the weekend. Honestly my oil temps didn't get as high as I thought they would; mostly due to a lot of the track being a bit too fast for third but not that high in the RPMs in 4th. As ejdoherty said, DT40 on the street and XP9 10w-40 on the track for the 996.

On the track your car will run hot. so I would certainly use a w50 or maybe even a w60 10w or 15w cold viscosities will certainly not hurt your engine when you are in a moderate or warm climate. Their viscosity at cold start at these temperatures will still be lower then 0w at a cold start in freezing mid winter. Also consider you will use this oil temporary. So little cold starts. I agree about not using Mobil Water 0w40 for track use. Mobil has a Mobil1 10w50 or a 10w60 Motorsport oil. Which differs a lot from M1 0w40. There are other racing options such as Motul 300v or Millers CFS NT10w50 Some extra oil with a Motorsport type deeper sump will not hurt in fast curves. I see oil pressure drops even in spirited road driving! Keep your runs to 30mins max Foresee a long enough cool down lap, and keep the revs at 3000 for the water pump to circulate enough water through the rads and back to the engine Be sure your rads are clean and in good condition. Oh did I already say not to track your standard 996? .

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You have my full attention. Why do you say this? Is it because a unmodified Porsche 996 with all of it's failure possibilities will be a ticking time bomb in a high stress situation like a track run?

oh boy here we go why did I post in this circus

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LOL...that goes through my head every time I post on Rennlist. :-)

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If you are buying stuff from LN, ask them and take their advice. They know more about this subject than we do........................... Craig

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Seems like I remember reading that Rennlist was the circus and the 996 subforum was the freak show? I haven't seen any freaks so far, but I'm keeping my guard up as I tip toe through the maze of threads.

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I hope you understand the little funny irony in my comment. if not disregard it because the answer is in my post. different oil, upgrade sump, proper cooling having fun is also a part of it! Unfortunately the M96 engine is not the best suited for the track. You can improve it in some aspects. But the risk is there. Nothing new.

FREE DOWNLOAD: Tracking your car and M96 engine https://lnengineering.com/education/...96-engine.html .

I ran two track days so far with XP-9. 11 quarts in the engine with the 2 quart deep sump. This kept the oil level at mid range. No issues at all with the engine. Coolant temperatures went up just a little. Road Atlanta is a fairly fast track. I was in fourth gear most of the time, so lots of air flow through the radiators. Tires took most of the abuse. It has been a lot of fun.

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Oops, I didn't realize this was a bumped thread. At least it's not an ancient thread.

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Not an old thread. When I saw it pop up today, I added an update. I downloaded the LN Engineering document linked a few posts ago and may add another post based on my experience.

Oh, ok. I didn't realize you had updated it. I thought someone brought it back from the dead for you. I'll be interested in hearing more about your experiences. I'm planning on adding the LN 2qt deep sump kit during my next oil change. I missed the great pricing from Autohausaz.com. Their current price($775) is still better than just about anywhere, but $677 was even better. I didn't buy it because I already have a lot of expensive parts ready that have been setting around for months waiting to go onto the 996. I'm about 2000 miles/2 months from another oil change so I'll wait and hope someone has a labor day or Columbus Day special.

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If you install the 2 quart deep sump, I HIGHLY recommend you spend the $300 on the skid plate. The deep sump becomes the lowest point at the rear of the car. I installed the skid plate when I installed the sump and I have already scuffed up the skid plate several times. I know $300 is a lot for a piece of heavy duty sheet metal with a few bends and a few holes, but it is a must. I opened the LN Engineering document on tracking the M96, and I had read this one previously. It addresses primarily three weaknesses, oil starvation, the IMSB, and cooling. In my humble opinion, addressing the oil issue is the top priority. Install an X51 type baffle. It comes with the 0.5 and 2 quart kits. My car spent its first 42,000 miles as a tire testing track car. It was purchased by Michelin Research and Development from Brumos Porsche. It turned out to have several performance mods. Some I was aware of and some I wasn't when I bought it. When I installed the 2 quart deep sump, I removed the sump plate and discovered it already had an X51 baffle! It didn't come from the factory that way. Probably why my engine has held up so well. Turn 12 at Road Atlanta is a long high speed sweeping right hander. It would be an M96 killer without the X51 type baffle. If you have the small single row IMS, I would address that as the second priority. I personally would install the IMS Solution, but replace the bearing at a minimum. Next would be cooling. I purchased the third radiator kit and the 160 degree thermostat, but I didn't have time to install them prior to my July and August track days. In Georgia. I ran with the windows up and AC on! We are allowed to run windows up and use blinkers for passing. I did clean the radiators just prior to the first track day. I also didn't push the car that hard. I ran four 20 minute sessions, so it was not endurance racing. Temperatures stayed well within the normal range. One topic that wasn't discussed was the suspension. It turned out that my camber bolts wouldn't stay torqued and the bushings were generally worn out. I spent over a third of what the car cost me to get the suspension professionally replaced and set up for the track. The car drove well in the street, but the track exposed the old worn out suspension components. Pic of the X51 baffle that was already in my M96:

You can see there are a few bits of timing chain tensioner in the center of the somp plate. New tensioner pads are on my "to do" list. The big black swirl pots in the engine pic get replaced with the better, more simplistic M97 design when you buy the 2 quart kit. A pic of the underside of the case. Looks pretty clean for 92k miles:

New X51 type baffle and the old one. The old one has rubber "doors" and the new one has metal doors.

I added the factory skid plate almost immediately after I bought my 996. It already has some scratches from pulling into a steep entrance to the local Micro Center. I've worried about having the pan an inch lower after seeing the scratches. I no longer use that entrance, but worry about the same problem somewhere else...especially after I lower the car slightly when I install the coil-overs. I agree with installing the IMS Solution. I'm very happy that my 996 came with the IMS Solution already installed by FSI. (FSI even has dyno video clip on their Facebook page of my car while the PO had it there. Do you think that I can modify the factory skid plate to fit? If not, I'll sell my factory skid plate and buy the LN one.

Cleaned up sump plate and the deep sump hardware just before I mated them up. The most time consuming part of the deep sump installation was thoroughly cleaning the sump plate inside and out. I wanted it completely crud free and it took several passes on the outside surface.

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The 2 quart skid plate extends farther down than the others, so it is made out of a longer piece of sheet metal. It would be far easier to sell yours and get a new one than to bend your current plate and weld extensions on it, in my opinion, unless you just want to do that project.

Local 996 porsche race shop runs 0W40 Mobil One in all their 996 cars. Vario Cams dont like the heavier weight is part of the reason. Not an oil expert just sharing what this shop does in socal.

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OK, thanks. I'll just buy a new extended one and sell this one...in a couple of thousand miles.

The .5 quart deep sump works fine. I don't run the 2 quart because of the clearance issue. Especially when I'm running 3.75"F/4.5"R ride heights.

fwiw, Driven XP6 is a 15w-50 weight. No variocam issues on the pre 02/03 cars from what I understand.

Consider that many 996 get driven in winter around the world with 0w40 and cold starts below 50F. What are the viscosities of a 10w and 15w oil at cold start in a warm climate (>80F) compared to the 0w40 in the conditions above? Are the oil properties so different? Also consider that at the track your oil runs hotter so de facto a w50 oil at the track will have comparable viscosities at the track then a w40 oil which runs a couple of degrees cooler on the street. At least that is what I noticed. On the street I reach 100-105degC as max and on the track 105-115degC. My idle oil pressure with 105-110degC hot 10w50 oil is almost the same as 95-100degC hot 0w40 oil. I think it would not hurt to temporarily use a 10w50 or 15w50 for those times you go track your car. The IMS bearing is a weak point. Certainly when the bearing sealing is compromised and leaking. The bearing will not be properly lubricated anymore by the permanent grease locked inside the sealed bearing. On the track with a fair extra amount of high rpm driving the bearing will spin much more. It will run already much hotter in perfect condition and on top of that the compromised lubrication will even add more heat to it resulting in accelerated wear and eventually catastrophic failure.

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I've wondered if just the .5qt and the X51 baffles would be enough protection. SP996 run them so I would assume so. I'm only planning on tracking mine occasionally on street tires. Although type R tires are a very slim possibility. I'd hate to skimp on the deep sump kit and regret it. But I also worry about clearance on the street/in parking lots.

I did the LN 2 qt kit, and it is low. I am going to have to get a skid plate for going up and down my driveway with lowered suspension. But, I feel good about it at the track!

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The .5 quart is only sufficient for street tires. On a 996 at Road America, it's good for about a bar higher oil pressure max in the carousel, but if you go with tires with treadwear of 200 or less (sticky), it will be quickly overcome, even with the X51 baffle. I have run the 2 quart deep sump in my Boxster for years with no issues, and that's even with a 996 intake which required the engine and trans to be dropped 1 inch. Car runs a factory M030 suspension. The skid pan we make works. I ran over a coyote at speed about two years ago and the whole back of the car got air on it's skull.

Interesting. I'd be curious on any data you have on the .5 vs the 2L deep sump.

Like to jump in here on the viscosities in question and what your options are. Often jumping up in viscosity will actually exacerbate the oil temp issue (oil system efficiency is depleted, lack of oil flow= more heat), loss of power (yes, engine dyno proven) and potentially increase the wear of the engine. Too often car guys equate higher viscosity=better protection. It ultimate comes down to finding the right balance of viscosity vs performance and finding an oil or formulation that helps with some of the on track issues one will see ie elevated oil temps, oil pressure consistency etc. Moving to our 300V 0W40 or 5W40 will pay dividends in lowering oil temps considerably (10-15F is the average vs competitor products), provide more power and increase reliability of your engine. Many of our engine partners have reported up to 25% better engine life since switching to 300V. We accomplish this in several ways. First, our product is group 5 ester synthetic based while Mobil 1, Driven etc are all grp 3 and grp 4 based. While group 3's and 4's have a high performance level, there are many advantages of the 300V ester based product vs the "others" as it is really the only true ester synthetic available for 4 stroke engines. Our formulation is a patented technology called "Ester Core" and is a proprietary blend of many different esters to achieve the highest performance level in a 4 stroke engine. Another cool fact about esters is there are 5000+ to choose from so you can tailor make an oil for specific purpose. That's not possible with crude based synthetics (grp 3 and 4). To put this to the test. Below is an engine dyno test we conducted recently for power making abilities on a Porsche 3.6L Cup engine: Motul 300V 0W40: Red Line- +6 HP, 1.2% TQ Mobil 1 0W40: Blue Line A lot stands out on this graph but as the engine reaches max power between 6800 RPM and approaching red line, the EsterCore formulation really shines. This is due to it having a much lower traction coefficient. Esters are more "slippery" vs other traditional synthetics. 300V is also heavily friction modified with molybdenum to help with power making abilities and engine protection. Being more "slippery" also yields higher reliability for your engine as well. Over the life of the oil drain interval, esters will also have an extremely strong oil film for maximum viscosity retention (the oil's ability to stay in grade- this will also help with oil pressure consistency) so you will see better oil life over its use and in return better engine life and better engine protection. Many users have been able to extend the life of their "track day" oil changes 3 fold. Lastly, esters also can operate much more effectively under extreme temps and can provide adequate lubricity of temps over 500 F. To put it in perspective, the entire LMP2 class in WEC and Le Mans uses this product right off the shelf- this is the product's true benchmark and where much of the research and development is done. For GT cars, McLaren also uses 300V in their entire GT3/GT4 program exclusively (also our brake fluid and gear oil). If you have any further questions, please drop a line here. -Nick

thanks for the data @Motul!

Great info on the 300V. Do you have any comparison testing for the lower oil temp claims by chance? Thx!

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Nick, Do you recommend 300V for the street with occasional track usage, or is there another formula you recommend?

Also, how many track hours or miles do you recommend before changing it?

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This, and I believe I read in a different forum that this oil is acceptable to use as a street/track oil for normal (5000 mi?) drain intervals. Up to a year? This is assuming it's high performance use (track) is limited to your recommendations, and changed when that threshold is reached.

I successfully ran a '99 996 as a DE/Street car for 5 seasons, starting in 2010. Mods included X-51 oil pan, PSS-9's, Tequipment roll bar, GT-3 hardback seats. I used PFC brake pads and original 18" wheels with Bridgestone RE-11 tires.The car is now with a new owner and going strong. My research on various Racing Forums indicated that oil starvation only occurred when 1.) in a long left hand sweeper, AND 2.) car was on true race slicks. That does not mean Nitto NT-01's, or Toyo RA-1's. They are not slicks and can't generate enough g-force to cause the starvation. To be clear, both of these conditions must be present for starvation to happen. I installed an original X-51 oil pan only because I got it at a great price. After a couple of events, I changed over to Motul 8100 x-cess, 5W-40. Noticeable better temps and pressure over Mobil. I changed oil and filter before each DE event. I guess it is all a matter of what does your research say? What are you comfortable with? YMMV

The interesting thing is the Raby engine that blue chip ultimately bought didn't come with a deep sump or X51 baffle. When I asked about them they said it doesn't hurt but that oil starvation was usually blamed for oil breaking down under high temps. I have not seen anything but anecdotal data on this subject though.

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None of our engines "come" with these components. While they can be added as options, the internal modifications that are made to the bearing running clearances, and primary oil system overcome the issues when coupled to a proper oil. We set oil viscosities by bearing clearance, and intended oil temperature range. Probably less than 10% of the engines that we've built int he last decade + have used any bolt on oil system components. The magic occurs internally.

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Is any of that magic exposed in the 102 or 202 classes, or does it remain proprietary?

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Yes, we do go over these modifications in the Performance classes. We have all new content for the 2019 classes.

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At the risk of guessing and propagating Internet myth, I�d guess that the goal is to make sure the oil does not foam (pick the right oil), and make sure it makes its way to the sump quick enough (make sure scavenging is efficient). Am I off, WAY off, or nowhere near, lol?

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Those things are part of the equation. What people just don't grasp, is there's no single thing that can cause an engine to fail due to oil related issues. At the same time, there's no single thing that can be done to avoid this failure from striking. It takes several things, all of which are dependent upon the vehicle, the driver, and the operating environment greatly. Someone in Florida on N Spec tires, and someone in Colorado on R Compounds have different environments, and applications. At the same time, a driver running around the track in the blue run group is going to also have a different set of needs than someone that's an instructor. We build engines from a worksheet full of facts about the car, the driver, and the operating environment. These things create the sum of what we will both do to an engine internally, and externally, and what that will cost. Now, that being said... People spend all their time worrying about a given amount of oil volume in the engine, and returning it to the sump. While these are important parts of the equation, these things are part of the secondary oil system. We worry about : -The right oil -With the right viscosity -At the right place -At the right time -At the right temperature -With the proper volume These things are all related to the primary oil system. Over the years we've made larger, higher volume oil pumps, and etc, but nothing reduces the issues more than ensuring the internal clearances are correct, so shear is reduced. Put simply, from the factory these engines are too tight, and nothing promotes shear more than tight clearances. At the same time, opening clearances demands that oil volume be increased through the bearings, and thats where things come into play that aren't "easy" to do. With our R51 (Version 3) engine we have maximized the capability of the factory M96/97 oil system, and for the first time we are finding that we must apply our dry sump system for those who want to see over 8,000 RPM consistently. With each step up the developmental ladder, a new weak link is presented. Our lives are spent chasing down those weak links, and fixing them, only to create another weak link, and then fix it. Thats all we do....

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300V has the capability as a street-track product as this oil has the common additives found in a service oil (detergents, rust inhibitors, dispersants etc). That could get costly as I wouldn't recommend going more than 3,000 miles in that type of application. For pure street use, a 5,000 mile/1 year interval is fine. If it is a mainly a street car with a few track days throughout the year I would look to our 8100 X-cess 5W40 or 8100 X-max 0W40. It's tough to say without knowing the application, conditions and various other factors. Starting at 12 track hours/700 miles is probably a good start and working your way up from there with used oil analysis to secure maximum drain interval confirmation. It's not out of the norm that people have worked past 24+ hours on 300V and logged over 1500 miles with 300V still having life left in it. -Nick

@Motul The results that you have referenced... Were those comparables logged with a Porsche M96, M97 engine specifically?

First, our product is group 5 ester synthetic based while Mobil 1, Driven etc are all grp 3 and grp 4 based. -This statement is misleading. Driven�s XP9 also contains a blend of different Ester base oils, and lab testing indicates Mobil 1 0W-40 FS contains an Ester base stock. - Did all of the oils tested have the same HTHS value?

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Hello, This was on the M97 engine. Hello Lake, Hope all is well. Our product had the highest HTHS out of the oils tested so there was no low viscosity power advantage vs the other oils. All oils were a 0W40 and are well known brands. Motul Trophy 0W40: 3.9 Oil 1: 3.6 Oil 2: 3.5 Oil 3: 3.5 Oil 4: 3.8 I didn�t say no other engine oils have esters. -Nick

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Nick, Thanks for the reply on the HTHS values. As we we both know, nearly all full synthetic race oils contain some level of Ester, and the original post could be read in a way that made it sound like other oils don�t contain esters. I�m not trying to pick a fight - just trying to clarify. I appreciate your response.

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No worries, Lake. Understood. We of course would put up our formulation against anyone and I�m happy to answer any further questions (without divulging proprietary info). Good luck out there! -Nick

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What is the difference between the Motul 8100 line vs the Motul Sport line? Which one is recommended for casual tracking? (6-8 times a year, street tires, oil change twice a year) My car doesn't burn oil but does run hot at the track, do you still recommend 40 weight or is it better to move to 50 weight? I had UOA done on 40 weight oil after a few track days and results came back normal.

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Hello, The Sport product will have some Group 5 ester in it vs the 8100 oil line that doesn't. Group 5's have various performance advantages as previously mentioined over Group 3 and 4 synthetics- mainly in the ability to create more power reliably, better oil film strength and have polarity as well. Keep in mind that the 8100 X-cess 5W40 has Porsche OEM A40 approval where the Sport does not. I would say even without a UOA staying at a 40 vs 50 would be ideal. Being that you have done a UOA and confirmed no harm being done, there�s no reason to switch. Often stepping up in grade can make things worse and create further technical issues. Finally, either product will perform admirably in your application as the 8100 X-cess can be used as a dedicated track oil. Personally, If you want to spend the money and upgrade, I would just recommend stepping up to 300V vs Sport as the upside is quite high. -Nick

Thanks for the technical information and discussion from Motul, Jake, and Lake !! With the advancement in lubrication and metallurgy in combustion engines this kind of info is invaluable. In the last couple decades normal wear has been decreased substantially, but seems sudden failures have not. I love to see head to head comparisons, need more of it ( such as aeration). thanks !!

Cheers to competing vendors for engaging in professional and informative discussion. We need more of that around here!

Good thread, I've been learning more and more about oils since owning my 996. Currently at 68k miles - For the past year I've been running Mobil1 0w-40 on street and on track (oil changed before and after each track day). After 3 UOA done everything has been checking out fine but ambient temperatures have always been cooler. I stepped up to Motul 5w-50 Sport for a track event next week that will be very hot for the car. I'll run a UOA on that oil and see what comes back. After that event, I've been thinking to use Motul 5w-40 X-cess for street driving, it has a great reputation from everyone here as well as from mechanics. The debate I have: is it too much to go from 0w-40 to 5w-50 to 5w-40 over a short period of time? Would I be better off to stick with the 5w-50 "long term" since that switch in weight is the first weight change over the life of the car?

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Hello, No issues with changing between those viscosities even in close duration with each other. -Nick