RE: Cayenne Sells - Page 5 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

bollocks

well said ;0)

yeah, there must have been many more than 700..... The rest are probably saving up!

Whatever you think about this truck I have to say that this is good to see Porsche going elsewhere than the bloody *arse-engined* route! (off course I'm not biased at all )

Another thing... just think, this vehicle is technically built to handle well *OFF ROAD*... 99.99999999999999999999999999% of the ones sold will never see rain, let alone mud or rocks. I would have no problem with SUVs if they were used for their intended purpose (or built for their intended purpose as very few are these days) - but they are instead used to cart the kids to school and then let the housewife drive around in a car that makes her "feel safe". So in other words - she can drive as dumb as she pleases and the only people who have to be scared are those of us who drive cars. Even if these problems didn't exist, I would *still* have major issues with Porsche wasting time and money developing this gas guzzling overweight piece of sh*t when they could damn well be spending that time and money on something that they are already good at - sports cars.

Jurys still out. Anyone drivne one yet. I would like to have a try.

I don't like the look of the Cayenne much either but wake up, this is the real world and Porsche is a business, not a sacred cow! Anyway, it works like this - Porsche makes a better SUV than everyone else, makes more profit, stays successful and in business, ploughs money back into developing the cars we all like. Everyone's happy. We get what we want and matey in his Porsche Tonka toy is blissfully ignorant. The Cayenne increases not decreases Porsche's ability to develop sports cars.

...or...Porsche invests vast amounts of money in a car, never makes a profit with it and teeters on the edge of oblivion (or DaimlerChrysler) unable to invest money in its staple product....wind the clock back to 1975 chaps....Porsche is (or was) the most profitable car company in the world...why go and spend that dosh on an SUV that just doesn't fit wiht its ethos?

I think its a given that this will (and has) sell (sold) i dont see the problem , if you lot had your way they would still be making the 356 it`s 2002 not 1962 . As for the comment earlier about how they should be making sports cars what crap they have the BoxterS various 996 combinations and the upcoming Carrea GT stop your whinning if you dont like the Cayenne then dont fcuking buy it . Luddites the lot of ya

I don't disagree that they are diluting the values of the Porsche brand, but the money is spent now so they've effectively placed their bet. We'd better hope that the Cayenne is good so the Doomsday scenario you describe is not realised! It appears that the early indications are suggesting that Porsche has brought its engineering excellence to bear and the Cayenne will be a success. It still does nothing for me, however, but long may the "morons" continue to buy it and enjoy it for our greater good!

Damn right Chris , it seems to be a rageing success so far , good luck to them but i feel they dont need it

Access to the world of Porsche is now easier than ever. Satisfying the masses is great for their bank balance and market share, but not when done at the expense of erroding their heritage and exclusivity. How long before we get cheap entry level diesel cayennes, or even an MPV to increase that market share even further? Ten years from now Porsche won't be considered an 'ultimate' brand. It willl be just another VW / Audi / Lexus sporting a huge range of quality vehicles. Ferrari will never sell out like this and become diluted, and so will stand alone, untouchable, as the premier auto 'designer' brand. Could you imagine if Gucci started selling handbags in ASDA?

Simple....... we are all enthusiats for the cars....but look at the latest feature built into facelift 996 & Boxsters....a cup holder! The cayenne is made for Porsches largest market the USA They will sell as many cars as they want to over there,biggest handicap will be any warranty or safety fears to suppress the sales. Ok they make the vehicle available in europe & the rest of the world where it will sell as a status symbol despite not being suitable for our roads. It's not for us they are running a business satisfying their largest target audience.

So. The Cayenne. The grunty one has the performance of a Boxster S...although it can't corner so well. BUT it takes five (YES! FIVE) adults in comfort with their luggage. So. You like Porsche. But have a family. Previously Porsche had nothing to sell these people. Now...there's no reason why a Porsche customer has to go outside the brand for his/her motoring needs. People aren't morons to want a fantastically well built, fast, large vehicle. The fact that they will use the off-road capability rarely is reflected in the Cayenne's design. Its not a Landrover Defender now is it? Nope. Its off road capability is best described as being able to cope with yanking the Horse Box to the gymkhana or being able to picnic at the bottom of the field...not ford jungle rivers...whatever the advertising might say. I'm not buying one...but good luck to 'em I say. And if I had buy something like that....I'd have the Cayenne instead of an X5 because at least it doesn't have such an apalling image. (X5 - perfectly good vehicle BTW).

Perhaps they should have continued to produce Porsche estate cars in conjunction with Audi.

I go paintballing and airsofting alot, I need a practical car that can get me and my friends to the sites that have crap parking and access. I need a car that can take all the crap we take with us. Oh god i must be a moron to want something that fits my needs?

They're coming, together with a V6 engined version! - see this weeks Autocar mag. Don't forget however that diesels are the future of performance motoring Seriously though, if these sort of vehicles are your thing I suspect the diesels could be quite interesting. I imagine they will have mountainous torque which would quite suit this kind of vehicle. Isn't Ferrari already just Fiat's equivalent of Ford's RS badge!? Only joking, before I get lynched! My point really is that the development costs involved these days mean no-one can afford not to compromise their principles a little in order to have a long-term viable business. Just look at Ferrari and Fiat, Lambo and VAG, Aston and Ford. Porsche has to generate the necessary cash from somewhere unless it wants to go that route. Chris

For me the process of degrading Porsche started when his son was allowed to use the styalised Porsche logo ( obvoiously he could use his own name ) to flog dodgy over-priced designer sunglasses and fag-lighters made of carbon fibre blended with a smidgen of unobtainium all artistcally presented in a cherry-wood box. Rich...

As i remmember the familly were kind of against this tat being touted around , but then Ferrari have been having it off with all the Ferrari tat , and who said earlier that they would never sell out

-------------------------------- I go paintballing and airsofting alot, I need a practical car that can get me and my friends to the sites that have crap parking and access. I need a car that can take all the crap we take with us. Oh god i must be a moron to want something that fits my needs? ------------------------------- Yes is the answer I think?

Right, here come the sparks... What seems to be the problem with Porsche producing the Cayenne??? There seem to be a lot of you against it because it simply isn't "Porsche" I have to ask the question did you only buy your Porka as a status symbol or because it really is a bloody good car??? From the reviews I have read, the Cayenne seems to be a good car, but it's not providing the right image and is damaging "yours" in the process.

Oh behave. If Ferrari produced a people carrier, that would be fine would it?! Porsche deserve all the criticism they get for selling out so blatantly.

They almost did, it was big, had four seats and was F'ing ugly. They called it the Mondial.

The mondial may not please you visually but it remained true to Ferrari's roots - it's a sports car, not an off roader / van / mpv. The 2+2 layout is in the same vein as a cerbera, so what's your point?

I think they should return to their real roots and start building tractors again. If they hadn't sold enough of them, the 911 wouldn't have even existed ! Slight exaggeration but hopefully you get my point. >> Edited by HermanTheGerman on Thursday 7th November 15:12

Gazza, a tw@t like your namesake perhaps? The Cayenne is not designed as a sports car, its not trying to compete with the 911. It will effect the 911 except to perhaps push engine development along a bit and give Porsche some more options. It's going to make a ton of money. Ferrari and Porsche are worlds apart in focus, you can't compare them as the principles surrounding the marques are different. Porsche remain totally independent due to the fact that they are very profitable, I would like that situation to remain, the Cayenne ensures that situation continues. Ferrari are not autonomous anymore, maybe they will be again but Fiat bean counters (and they can't count very well) push the buttons.

Sorry, but at the end of the day I'm unable to dazzle with stats and figures, but what I do know is that my old man owned one and it was nothing like the 308, 328, 355 etc etc At the end of the day, it's an opinion. Hell, I know theres a site for Mondial enthusiasts who are probably hacking into my computer and uploading all sorts, but that's what I think of it. I'm struggling to think of a mfr that has done something quite so radical, but they brought you that excellent car on your driveway. If the Cayenne was a dog then fair enough, lets march to Germany in protest, but its not. All I can say is Drive one!

No I think he was just agreeing with you, that yes you would be a moron to spend £70k on a car to take paint-balling Rich...

I'm a 911 driver. It's my fourth air cooled, rear engine Porsche. I also thought that the SUV was wrong - but over on this side (U.S.) of the pond, there are a lot of well-healed Porsche owners who buy expensive SUVs, like Range Rover, BMW, etc., to drive in the bad weather. So, why not? It allowed development of what is probably a terrific eight cylinder engine that will almost certainly be used in the next 911.

Mondial's a dog...but very cheap if you want a "Ferrari". I know a trader who bought a QV for £8k the other day... I'm surprised no-one's latched onto the scenario I have painted. I guess that's because few of you really knows that much about Porsche's heritage, otherwise why all the comments about diluting the brand? Not content with working on digging the hole they dug for themselves in 1975 by launching the 928 to replace the 911, Porsche continued their badge engineering work with VW (started with the 914) with the 924. Ironically this car's development, the 944 probably saved the compnay from bankruptcy in the 1980s.. So there's already a history of cheapening the name, I am concerned about them diluting the brand, more than anything. ...and I don't even pwn a Porsche at the momen!!! Oh and Porsche Design products are well designed, of beautiful quality and so much better than those tacky Ferrari accessories. I maintain that the Cayenne doesn't fit with Porsche's whole ethos and where's the proof it's making money? So the order book's full...so was the Jaguar X Type's...do you think that's making money? You'd have thought so, with a sub £20k price...well I've got news for you, it isn't, they just cant't sell enough to cover the costs and that's for a car based on a shared floorpan...sound familiar to you? Surely the vehicle of choice for paintballing is a metallic green, V8 Defencer with bull bars & loads of lights isn't it?..."let's offroad"

Cayenne is a perfect fit: More headroom and same leg-room compared to other Porkers. Allows the drivers to squeeze their huge heads in, but with no additional room required for their tiny members.

Typical of a Porsche Forum. If you really were genuine Porsche enthusiasts you'd all be slitting your wrists at the mere thought that they could build such a butt ugly piece of sh!te. They should be ashamed of themselves. I don't own and probably never will own a Porsche but I appreciate the place that they have in Motorsport history as well as the achievement of producing such fine cars over the years. This SUV has done them no favours. Rubystone is right on the button on this on. Makes a change I suppose.

The problem IS the fact that Porsche is currently trading on its motorsport HISTORY. Has anyone noticed who's been winning 'Le Mans' for the last three years? It's not Porsche - they're nowhere to be seen in high-level motorsport these days, except when they're racing against other Porsches! If Audi starts to produce real driver's cars, soom they'll be the next 'Porsche'. Build quality, roadholding and performance is outstanding already on their RS cars. As soon as they get steering feel/ride sorted out, all the manufacturers had better watch out. Unless Porsche gets the funding to invest in Motorsport (and win consistently!), the marque WILL be consigned to history and will end up like Mercedes - a status brand only, selling 'nice' high performance cars. That's where the Cayenne comes in - they're confident of making significant profits which will allow them to start creating Motorsport history now - not living in the past. I'm frankly sick of defending Porsche's motorsport credentials, when these credentials are well past their sell-by date. I've heard that the Cayenne will be the basis for Porsche's re-entry into the Paris-Dakar rally - the 959 (off-road version!) ran in that many years ago, I believe. That's a step in the right direction. Le Mans next, I hope - perhaps with a variant of the Carrera GT? >> Edited by argonaut on Friday 8th November 10:26

Nothing to do with cash, Porsche aren't short of that (or they weren't until they invested in the Cayenne)...instability of prototype rules is the reason why Porsche and loads of others (Cadillac) Audi/Bentley aren't committing to this category at the moment, but will when the carbon monocoque rules come in in 2004. Grids for GTO/GT/GTS remain healthy due to Porsche's suport, no more than 9 prototypes contested the ALMS series this year for example, something like 25 GT class cars were there though.... Porsche were bitten badly with the CART fiasco a decade ago...they now make motorsport decisions based on good financial sense...that's why they're bringing Porsche Cup back under their umbrella over here - much more bang for their buck...that's a trend worldwide, witness Volve pulling out of ETCC to concentrate on their home market

'PORSCHE TO SELL TUB OF TURD TO FUND NEW CRUSADE ON MOTORSPORT WORLD' Bollocks. They aren't short of a few quid and they certainly don't need to produce dirge like the Cayenne in order that they can afford to race. IIRC they pulled out the GT1 from Le mans when they got bored because no other f**ker could keep up with them. It makes me sick. They have sold out. Simple as that. >> Edited by SL_NO186 on Friday 8th November 10:54

You really do not get it do, you Porsche is a business in the game to make $$$ the Cayenne is a new product in a new market segment for them , a market segment that is a very large one. Why not get involved in it if it will be profitable , the car is sold out world wide it would seem , Porsche is a tiddler in the grand scheme of things and need to expand into new areas or risk being swallowed whole by one of the multi`s , (or would you prefer that) and then see how diluted they become. Styling wise i think they could have done better but from early reports it seems it is a stonking good drive , if you dont go fowards you are going backwards , and after all how many variants of a 911 can you build.

I agree. It's all about making Doitchmarks. This is Porsche's opportunity to sell a badge-engineered VW Tour-Rag to idiots with more money than sense (Premiership Footballers being one such group). And why not? They've shared the development costs with VW and will no doubt make a hefty margin on each unit sold. I think that makes them quite smart (as long as it does not dilute the sports car side of the brand - which I don't think it will). BTW, I think the Cayenne is a real pig and if I was in the market for that type of car (which I never intend to be) my money would go on the VW.

I hope you guys are right about the $$$$. The common consensus amongst most of the people on this thread is that the Cayennne is a dog....but I just hope Porsche don't drop their trousers on this one, otherwise we'll see future Porsches powered by 1.8 turbocharged 4 cylinder engines....911 pastiche anyone based on VW Golf floorpan?

And it will probably be a belting good drive

What...like all the other VW group products............................................................................????????????????????????????????????????

That's because it doesn't make any sense, what is your point exactly? That Porsche should only exist to develop ultra pure sports cars? The market for those is actually pretty small in the wider scheme of things. That's why Ferrari, Lambo, Aston, etc. no longer exist as independent companies. You even admit yourself that Porsche is only around as we know it today because it has a history of producing wider-appeal cars to generate the cashflows it needs to fund cash hungry developments of its more focussed vehicles - basic portfolio management theory put into practice. And assuming you are right that they have "lots of cash" (I haven't looked at their finances) developing new cars would burn up any cash mountain pretty quick - it's the ability to keep generating cash that is key. That's where the Cayenne fits (and I still don't like it personally).

Have you tried a Golf 4motion or more to the point a Golf R32 ? , most of Vdub`s products are aimed at getting people around nothing more , they show what they are capable of in the Audi range. try an R32 and then comment it is a great little car

Who gives a toss if they produce bag loads of diverse model types that dont appeal to us, as long as the cars I am interested in are good. >> Edited by rich1231 on Friday 8th November 11:51

Then surely the same applys to Porsche

Marki, thats who I was on about. Rich

Right ,,,,, glad we got that sorted

bla blah a big fat off roader for big fat greasy people who can t find any other thing to give money away ..... bmw porche or mercedes they r all the same hot roads with luggage space silly silly ................................. i rather drive a Umm than a silly porche canyenne germans r stupid

I can't work out here who's joking and who's serious. All I do know is that a whole bunch of you appear to exhibit zero knowledge of Porsche's heritage and I'm not going to waste my time educating you on that. As for VW products who cares about the power they produce...no I haven't driven the R32, but I have driven VR6, GTis, 4 motion, A3, A4, RO80 (!) and they all handle like buckets of lard and have steering that's as sensitive as John Prescott. The only thing I've admitted is that the last time Prosche tried to appeal to a different market they got into a lot of trouble...but that'd require you to understand the rationale behind the 928, why it was built and whose ego it was produced to satisfy...ditto the 924...no coincidence that both cars came about at the same time is it?.....go and read a book or call up Steve Kevlin to learn a little about Porsche as it was and Porsche as it is now....

rubystone i`ve said before and i will say it again BOLLOCKS

Marki. Please explain the thinking behind that last statement. It was so eloquently put after all. Do you do a lot of public speaking?

Oh, and it's true. VWs handle like Rick Waller trying to ballet dance.

Marki, I see you're from Sweden....explains a lot....go buy a Volvo

Or a similarly priced fag-lighter... Rich... "Oh and Porsche Design products are well designed, of beautiful quality"

Why not, you don't seem to mind wasting your time spouting crap, you could enlighten us with something useful instead!

...ah...wise words indeed from a man who used to own a BMW M3......

I don't actually have a problem with the Cayenne itself, but I do have a problem with the fact that America orders an SUV from just about every prestige-brand company in the world. If it had been a Volkwagen, I wouldn't have minded. Nice to see that Jaguar haven't followed down the German's path and brought out an SUV, estate, MPV and supermini.

Marki is no swede, but Brit from the best iron >> Edited by Thom on Friday 8th November 19:20

What's wrong with small engines, and what's wrong with VW?? You seem to forget Porsche have built their reputation on lightweight racing cars in the likes of the 550 Spyder and the 718 RSK, powered (amongst others) by four-pot VW engines. It didn't prevent the 550 from ranking 4th, 5th and 6th OVERALL at Le Mans in 1955... edited to correct the language mistakes >> Edited by Thom on Friday 8th November 18:56

Rumour has it that Rubystone ditched a flat 6 for a straight 4...

It's a shame that only a few people are talking sense here (Marki and others). I am no great fan of the production of Cayenne, but I am not so stupid as to completely miss the point of its existence, as others seem to be. Is the general thought here that Porsche should just sit still with the same range and watch its profits being gradually eroded? It knows that survival is increasingly difficult when so many of its competitors are owned by huge companies, able to plow much more into development of new models. Why not take the company's expertise and apply it to a new area? A new area where image counts and there is cash to be made. Make money, wait for the GT Championship rules to change in Porsche's favour, go racing again on the back of the profits. Okay, it MIGHT not work, but I think the chaps at Weissach/Zuffenhausen are intelligent and shrewd enough to ensure that it does. As long as it IS the best 4x4 ever (and Autocar rated it very highly this week), they should have no problems. A Porsche or a Ford Range Rover? Hmm. Okay, the purists (they may call themselves that) will say that this is destroying Porsche's image and you'd never find (insert legendary name here) doing that, but that's because their owners can afford it. How many independent 'legends' are left? Aston Martin/Jaguar/Ferrari/Masarati/Lotus/Lamborghini/Bentley - all owned by someone else. Surely part of the enjoyment of owning a Porsche (sports car) is the fact that it's still an independant company - when Porsche wins Le Mans, Porsche wins; when Bentley wins next year you'll know that Audi helped out. If you can accept that it had to build something to make a bit more cash, why not a 4x4? It's still a high-end product. Porsche's legend was built on RSKs etc, but the problem is that end of the market - I mean £20k four-pot soft tops - is dominated by every mainstream manufacturer trying to get a sporty image: surely entering that sector would dilute the brand even more? Going to stop soon, but one more thing. Porsche stopped going to Le Mans for two reasons: ludicrous expense (Toyota/Mercedes/Nissan etc) and avoiding a 'family' clash with Audi. The GT3 still dominates the N-GT class all over the world, where it battles marketplace competitors. Apologies for the length, but some of the comments on here really wound me up.

100% with ahonen, nuff said. (and fcuk the so-called *purists* ) Anybody for a pint?

"family clash with Audi" what planet are you on?....What would TVR owners say if they started building people carriers? What a ludicrous agrument that by diversifying into a market segment that they have no experience of, Porsche are going to do themselves some good....their very independence will be at stake if the Cayenne fails to sell. Why should I care? well...Porsche's core values remained true for many years, despite the starvation of investment in the 911 caused by their attempts to push the 928 to replace it and despite the years of non-development that followed those hard times. I just don't want to see the Cayenne push them down the same road...won't affect the values of the next 911 that I shall own, mind you....

My 'family clash with Audi' note did, of course, refer to the Piech family. Within the motorsport world it is understood that the V10 powered LMP900 Porsche did not race partly because of the clash of family interests. The oft quoted 'development costs of Cayenne' reason was only partly true. Also, Porsche knew that with the amount Audi was spending - allied to the fact that it employed the greatest ever sportscar outfit to run the R8R/R8 - it would have been hard pushed to repeat the '98 success. The stillborn LMP900 formed the basis for the Carrera V10, one of those cars that Porsche can't afford these days, of course, because of Cayenne... >> Edited by ahonen on Saturday 9th November 19:07

Piech? Doesn't know his arse from his elbow, witness VW group's confused marketing strategy...I'd just love to know how profitable or not that group is....remains to be seen what Pieschetsrieder does with them now

I was referring to the family name more than one individual.

"Porsche's core values": very interesting. What are these values, according to you? Note: the car Fuhrmann intended to replace the 911 with was the 944 Turbo, not the 928, which remained the flagship model from its birth till its death; any *competition* between the cars was only created by journalists who couldn't accept the idea Porsche was trying to broaden its range despite the fact they couldn't afford it; the same phenomenon of rejection towards a new model is happening now with the Cayenne. I have always said it, and I say it again: the 911 has *kidnapped* Porsche in the way that so-called *purists* (namely 911 integrists) are stubborn enough to think that Porsche will go in the wall if they try making something else than the 911. I guess it shows these people have indeed very few respect for the manufacturer of their favourite car... Why would the Cayenne "push them down the same road"?? Porsche has survived throught the 80s thanks to selling loads of 924/944 in the US; Their critical situation was due to very poor management, and nothing else! What is more, Porsche survived in the early 90s thanks to the last 944 S2 and Turbo they were selling, certainly not thanks to the poor 964 sales. Don't get me wrong: if I had been a 911 enthusiast I might have reacted the same way as you do, and as such I respect your misgivings on Porsche's economical strategy; but let me tell you that the rear-engine recipe won't last forever, and sooner or later customers will get tired of these cars with an extremely diluted character which has virtually no relation with its illustrous forebears (By the way, IMO the 911 died with the 993). >> Edited by Thom on Saturday 9th November 20:37

Thom, whether Enrst Fuhrmann intended to replace the 911 with the 944 Turbo or not - and I don't buy that at all, the 944 T was introduced in what 1986? the very year that Porsche introduced the G50 gearbox in the 911. If your theory holds true, why invest in tooling for a gearbox whose only road application was for a car that Porsche intended to replace - fact remains that their investment in the 928 (and no doubt in teh later ffront engined cars) was at the expense of the further development of the 911. Ask the man in the street what a Porsche looks like and he'll describe a 911. Ask the man in the street what a Jaguar looks lieke and he'll describe an XJ. Ask the man in the street what a Land Rover look slike and he'll describe a Defender. He won't describe a 928 or a 944 or an XK or an X type or a Discovery or Range Ranger. That's what I mean by core values. I have nothing against front-engined Porsches, expect to say that they are boring when compared against rear engined cars...with certain key exceptions eg 924 Carrera GT and 968 CS....even the 944 turbo, rapid as it is, is boring. I don't have sales figures for the 964, but I believe that model was very successful the world over, at a time when 944 sales were flagging and when the 968 was proven to be a dud. The 964 was of course the first 911 for years where some serious investment had been poured in...and yes, I accept that the success of the 944 enabled this investment to be made...but then that car was still a sports car in a segment where Porsche was recognised as being successful...unlike the SUV sector. Finally, whilst I also think the 993 is the epitomy of the classic 911 (leaving aside the 2.7RS), I have to day that I've been impressed with the 996...haven't been able to drive a GT3 yet but I bet they're superb and pretty tempting at around the £50k mark for an lhd version...

As i said before rubystone you obviously do not have a clue , Peich has pushed VAG to the top of the tree , ok they do seem to be a little confused in their marketing department , but they are market leaders for the cars they build. And as for the comment about being from Sweden go buy a Volvo , mate if thats the best arguement you can come up with i still prefer BOLLOCKS

Nice one Marki...exactly what markets do they lead?

Sorry, I meant Schutz, not Fuhrmann. Fuhrmann was indeed one of the responsible for keeping the 911 alive. The 944 Turbo went for sale in february 1985; Just to keep the 911 dinosaur more or less updated, and because Ferry refused to let it die and because Fuhrmann was convinced it needed being developped. Definitely. I won't disagree on this point. For me the man in the street - called "mr everybody" here in France, is a total twat whose culture is based on the bulls he reads in newspapers, helped by the journalists' non-integrity. If you think "core values" or whatever you call it are defined by the ignorant boneheads who sometimes see a car in the street, I suppose you have a very poor vision of the "sports car culture", at least very much different from mine. "Boring": very interesting. What are the factors which make a car boring? When it doesn't sound like a bag of nails? When its interior doesn't look like a mk1 golf? When its body style does not remind you of a squashed cockroach? IMO that's exactly the reason why the Cayenne should succeed: Porsche have built a car which, unlike the first front-engined cars, won't make any competition to the 911 because it is definitley not aimed to the same use. Yes, they are incredible machines, but they have nothing to do with what the 911 has been famous for...you know, "core values" >> Edited by Thom on Sunday 10th November 22:04

Thom. why bother with spending money on the G50 box? Porsche ran the 915 in the car from 1984 to 1986 with no problems....if you were going to spend money anywhere on the 911 you'd have done what they did with the 964 and changed the suspension, not developed a gearbox.... As for the 996....since one of Porsche's core values is motorsport (I'll hope you'll agree on that) the 996 has been THE most successful GT car in the world for the past what, 4 years...in GT2 & GT3 guises...can't argue with that can one? Washing machine? ....you'd know all about that if you drive a 944. :-)

Rubystone, IMO ALL Porkers feel like washing machines, including the GT3 I had the opportunity to be driven in on a track and the 2.7 Carrera RS my father was once lent in 1985 (cant' remember the exact year); I have never come across any sports car more dull AND efficient at the same time yet. I understand your opinion for the 944, since your opinion is simply as common as any 911 ignorant enthusiast's opinion can be! Anyway, no need to discuss any further. I think we can agree on one thing, though: thanks Porsche for having built cars raved at by such difference audiences.

Thom , I like them all really, even thought about buying a 924 once to go to station in, but insurance was too hefty

A 924?! I'd call that masochism!

Strangly enough i saw a 944 turbo yesterday a quite unusual sight over here , and i was struck by how they have stood the test of time , this car looked absolutly gorgeous after all these years not dated at all .

Funny that Marki, I saw a white one here with swedish reg plates some months ago...

So let us re-cap on this Gents. I hope I've got this right. The Cayenne is a hulking great piece of doggy doo that shames us all.

No way!

oh god here we go again!

Jon Ed care to comment too?

God Save us all from the Devil that is the Porsche Cayenne.

Just out of intereste - does anyone know how many orders were placed for the Boxster and 911; as when I was at the show, nobody was looking at the Cayenne...

Strange, when I was there everyone on the Porsche stand was looking at the Cayenes nobody was looking at the 911, and there were a few people looking at the Boxster - the TVR stand opposite was absolutly heaving. Rich...

700 morons at one show - amazing. Questions answered by Porsche included: "Does it have autopilot so I can read my newspaper?", "I'm always so busy and sometimes 1 cellular phone isn't enough, can I get several of them installed in the dash?", and "Can I replace the windshield with an extra large cosmetic mirror? The ones in the visor just aren't big enough for when I am applying my makeup!"