H&R lowering Spring - Spring rate???

Hi All, I recently lowered my car with H&R lowering springs #29168-1, everything else stock suspension parts ( 987.2 Cayman S ). Yes, the car looks great with lowered stance and the ride on streets feels better. But i hate to admit, that the handling has gone completely bad. I track once a month and found that the car has become lot more bouncier on the rear on corners ( especially " S" type double curves, which i could take earlier without lifting off). Now, I am leaning towards buying Ohlins R&T coilovers. I understand springs have to be ordered. Just trying to see if i could use the H&R springs i currently have and if anyone knows the spring rates of these ( Fr. and Rr.)? My driving is 80% streets and occasional weekend track-enthusiast. Thank you for your replies

I would look up the spring rates of H&R's maybe at the tire rack . The Ohlins have 400 lbs/in f and 458 lbs/in r. Part of the bouncier effects are due to a higher spring rate on H&R's vs OEM so your OEM shocks are valved to a lower spring rate. When rebound effects happen in the bumpier section of the track, the OEM shocks do not reduce the oscillations enough allowing the second rebound add to the first rebound causing a jittery motion. Shocks valving must be adjusted to the new spring rate by changing the internal valves and shim stacking. Ohlins in their normal suggested spring rates should work well in your applications. Joshua@arcflash can give you specifics as he sells Ohlins and is very helpful on this web site. Let us know how your suspension mods work out.

Thank you Apex1 for the info. I tried looking up tire rack for H&R sport spring ratings. Couldn't find any other than just relative indications of "firm, very firm, sporty...etc". Do Ohlins R&T Coilovers come directly fitted with springs (400#Fr and 458# Rr.)? Cause i was looking up "design911.co.uk" and it says, i need to order springs separately. Which is why i was hoping that my current H&R sport springs would work in combination with Ohlins R&T. As mentioned above, i would like street comfort and better than OE track abilities.

The H&R springs are totally different in design than the coilover springs for Ohlins . Check out a picture of Ohlins on their web site vs the H&R springs, you will see what I am talking about. The base perch is much different in size. The US suppliers order the springs with the Ohlins from Ohlins USA, while other countries have other arrangements with Ohlins . Again, you would not be happy with the spring rate/valve compression/rebound setup of these two different springs. Ohlins are setup at the factory for at much stiffer spring. You might try to get a set of R springs that may fit your needs.

Do the cayman R springs work with the stock dampers of the cayman S ? Or would i have to upgrade to a better damper?

In my current existing setup (with H&R sport springs and stock dampers), I understand that the sway bars are being preloaded. Does that mean the overall suspension's spring rate have increased further? If so, would using adjustable drop links to lessen the pre-loading help to bounciness?

Not sure the bounciness is from the swaybar, but from the spring rate not in sync with the shock. The solution would be R springs with the OEM shocks and swaybars, or Ohlins and their spring rate of 400 lbs/in f and 458 lbs/in r, adjustable downlinks, Tarett GT adjustable swaybars. Now we are talking. You have your choice of ride height and rake, forward, rear understeer/oversteer adjustments and compression/rebound to suit your driving style.

Thank you for your inputs. Can your suggested mods ( ohlins , Tarret GT sway with Adjustable drop links) be run as such, or do i need to add adjustable LCA? Cause I read a lot of folks go with it. I would hope not , given that the costs is spiralling upwards. On another note, since most of my driving is on streets (spirited) and occasional track, would a budget Coilover like BC racing BR be a solution for me? I am hoping for OEM street comfort (NVH important) and slightly better track performance (at best). My driving abilities on track have a distance to go before exploiting the limits of my stock cayman 's potential. BTW, didn't mention earlier, my car does NOT have PASM

If I were you, I would rather use a setup with R springs, B6's, adjustalbe swaybars and be done. Using cheap coilovers could cost you in the end as they most likely will fail in long term daily driving. I have used Ohlins for 4 years and 25,000 miles without any leakage issues. Also no need for adjustable LCA's in daily use. Their main purpose is to increase camber, while adding additional track. Daily camber can be gained by using the OEM slots in f and turn bolts in the rear to -1.5f and -2.1r. That should be enough for your intended use.

Thanks Apex for all your input. Gave me some direction

Gyri - it's tough not to fall off of the cliff once you start doing regular track days! I added GT3 LCA for increase camber to try to increase tire life and now am about to install a set of Ohlins and rear toe arms. Toe arms can be important to maintain alignment for lowered cars. This could also be a factor in the change in handling of your car. A little rear toe in will help keep the car stable in high braking or corners. My local race shop told me adjustable end links are not critical with the stock sways so I will hold off. I am pretty happy with the balance of the car right now so my plan is to stay with the stock sways for the coming season. If you want to add adjustable end links Rennline extended their holiday sale and has the lowest price I have seen. Keep in mind these can be a source of wear and NVH on the street as well. My choice would have been links from Powergrid but they were just too expensive right now. Most lowering springs are progressive so the rate changes with greater load. This makes rating them difficult and can cause some non-linearity that is upsetting the car. This also makes the job of the dampers more difficult. The CR package of struts and springs is available but is almost the cost of coil-overs without the adjust ability. I believe the B6 strut Apex1 mentions above is designed for lowering springs and may be a cost effective way to improve your setup. You might see an improvement changing the struts with your current lowering springs. BC racing is priced well and does get a lot of good reviews for budget parts but I don't expect them to last or be quiet with the included camber plates.

IS LCA the best way to adjust camber or can camber adjusting strut mounts be used to the same effect?

Camber plates can only get you so far and tend to add NVH. I chose GT3 LCA to get the camber I wanted and keep rubber bushings

I had BC’s on my MR2 that had 700hp and they were surprisingly great!! And rebuildable... I stuck Swift springs in them and they really came to life... Ohlins and Bilstein seem to work the best (had both in Porsche ’s).... BC is as budget as I’d get on Coilovers.... Fortune 500 seem pretty decent too... new struts with H&R’s will take you along way... I went thats way with the CS. My GT3 is all stock still... someday, as I just finished paying it off (Godd help me)

This thread convinces me to not do lowering springs! Does anyone think that Cayman R springs are fine with stock Cayman S struts? It boils down to the position of the piston in the strut right? If it's not at the right level - stability will be compromised. So do you know how these companies produce springs? Are they originally for the stock struts just for cosmetics, not performance?

They make the springs a little shorter so the car sits lower on stock struts... so they will work and work great.. coilovers aren’t always what there cracked up to be sometimes... if your not tracking don’t get coilovers... unless you want to be lower that what lowering springs will give... generally people run coilovers way to low for general purposes... spring rate is key and with struts your limited... coilovers will get you closer but generally they run stiff unless you get high end

What is the street "comfort" verdict on Ohlins R&T and KW v3 system? I hear both are better than stock OE system for track driving. But can they be setup for street comfort better than stock ( N V H)? Assuming I use my OE top Mounts of the strut with the OE rubber bushings?

In the rear, you will want to make sure the rubber gaskets are secure all the way around the top mounts and torque the bolts to their spec. Not owning KW v3's only OEM struts/springs then Ohlins , I can only tell you the ride with Ohlins favors more rebound on back country roads, even when the golden control knob is set to 15 clicks out of 20. I usually now favor 10 clicks f and 12 clicks r for my daily drives (1 click from closed is stiffest and 20 clicks is softest). Again that's just me. Others may use 20 clicks for their daily use. The NVH is due to the shock body valving being more restrictive than OEM, so a little tighter feel even when at 20 clicks. The good news is that is tolerable with OEM seats in our cars. Some tires will flex the side walls more and have a lower spring rate, so those tires will give a smoother ride on rough chipseal roads. I have three wheel sets and they all feel different due to the characteristics of the tires . The Michelins PS4S's are the smoothest, followed by the Hoosier A7's slicks, then the Bridgestone RE71R's which have a high sidewall spring rate. Tire pressures also help reduce the compression/rebound effects, so I use the minimum amount of TPI that the manufacturer recommends for the weight of my car. The RE71R's are my favorite tire all around, even for daily driving as the sidewall simply do not give way, even when running low pressure during daily activity. Their down side is the road noise, so if you want to listen to music, do not use these tires for daily activity. I am forced to use them up as their racing life is done after 1 season due to rubber hysteresis, yet they have more than 50% tread left, so I beat them up then practicing on certain roads that are safe to do so. Then, end of the day, there are always tradeoffs, I accept a slightly stiffer ride with the Ohlins , but I know they will help the car stick to the road, even when used in daily activity whatever that means. A case in point is going downhill on a steep switch back county road, the Ohlin coilovers are worth their return on investment as a crucial element of my suspension system.

The Bilstein B8 notes say they are meant for cars with lowering springs . Do you guys know if that would work in combination with my H&R Sport springs? I read elsewhere on planet-9 that if i did buy B8 with PASM support, then there is a possibility of adding , at a later date, DSC standalone controller kit, which would give me OE ride and better track feel. Any comments on this please? Apex, as suggested by you, I definitely need to recheck my suspension mountings. My top strut rubber mounts are less than a 1500Kms. But i wonder if the springs are held correctly in the perches, cause every time i drive one rear wheel over a bump slowly, i can hear creaking. I assumed this must be worn out ARB bushings (polyurethane ones again less than 1500KM), or preloading of ARB due to lowering springs. Nevertheless, need to recheck the install.

I don't think the creeking is dangerous, just annoying, but still needs to be addressed on your next setup install. Those bearings start to creek after a few months, mean that they most likely were overlooked on install. If there is plenty of torque applied to secure the parts, they should stay put and not wear out.

The Bilstein 's B8's work well with the H$R Springs that is what they were designed for.

Okay . That makes it an interesting option for me now. Thanks

What's the difference between B8 and B16 (PSS9)? pss9 look like a great solution.

With the cost of install significant with adjustable sway bars, adjustable LCA, adjustable rear toe link, alignment and corner balance, for the extra $500 dollars or so over PSS9's, I would step up to Ohlin's. You get what you pay for between these two products. I can say that I was skeptical about the advantage of higher spring rates vs the PSS9 product, but recently, I noticed a big difference in body roll and weight transfer reduction when using 400 lbs/in f and 458 lbs/in r. In my opinion, I could even use more spring rate to something like what Joshua@arcflash is selling 458 lbs/in f and 700 lbs/in r and I use my car 85% as a daily driver. Ohlin's shock body will allow these valving adjustments.

B8 is just the strut designed to go with lowering springs, the B16 is a complete coilover system.

I am still wrapping my head around the various options. Its almost wishful thinking for me to assume that i would get a conclusive opinion on what to buy. I got a reply from TPC DSC , suggesting for my type of use, to replace my struts to B4 or B6 with damptronics and then add their stand-alone controller kit (at a later date whenever i make a budget for it). This combination with my existing H&R sport springs , would give me the ideal road manners and OE or better track feel. Sounds great, just that , the combined cost would now be more that 3K (parts alone). So much for my budget. My options thus far are, 1. Koni sport (has rebound adjustment alone) dampers with my H&R springs, 2. B6 or B8 dampers with my H&R springs, 3. BC Racing coilover BR (complete system with pre-loaded springs). ON BC racing, I haven't got much feedback on Cayman installations, but on an average, on 911 , VW, Audi , BMW , and some of the Japanese makes, the reviews have been very positive. But its the occasional bad ones, that scares me.

While I favor Ohlins R&T, your best bet is to try a B8 shock with your existing H&R springs, as prihtvi suggests. You could also add adjustable LCA's at that time as your suspension will be apart installing the new shocks. So option #2 with front LCA's to give you more camber in the f, in the rear you may need adjustable toe links to set the rear toe on a lowered car with camber. Then let us know your results both on back country roads and the track. Focus on rebound rate on bumpy roads with the B8 and H&R springs to smooth out the ride.