Would you pay 20.000 extra for an R compared to a 2.9? - Page 4 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

considering an R, which would mean 20.000 extra over a non-S really. Is it really that much better? and will it still hold a big premium when the time comes for sale?

I very much doubt an R will lose value as its future classic. Find a Peridot Green R with Ceramics my friend. The 2.9 will lose money no doubt. So yes I'd spend the £20k extra.

You could say the R is NOT worth 20k more to buy, but imo you will get a bigger return when you sell so net result is less cost to own. The bespoke Shocks really makes the R what it is, and the free buckets, but you can buy that for £1.5k and fit it to a gen 2 3.4S (what are they £30k ? )

I highly doubt a R would be 40k in 5 years... 20-25 maybe, with a 2.9 being 10. Still a good buy though.

Vacationboy said: I highly doubt a R would be 40k in 5 years... 20-25 maybe, with a 2.9 being 10. Still a good buy though. people said that 3 years ago, they have gone up since then lol quite a few people said the R will be £25k come 2013 they are £44k in 2015. they dropped to mids 30's and went back up and now seem to be going up again from 40k, OPC has 5 cars all £43k ish and all over 20k miles, all crap spec as well (imho)

Vacationboy said: I highly doubt a R would be 40k in 5 years... 20-25 maybe, with a 2.9 being 10. Still a good buy though. Wont happen, they are a very desirable car and in small numbers, don't see them ever going below 40 all the time GT3's are starting at 50-60 for 996's

pete a said: Wont happen, they are a very desirable car and in small numbers, don't see them ever going below 40 all the time GT3's are starting at 50-60 for 996's It isnt a GT3 though is it, still the boggo DFI engine ( lovely as it is) which serves in all the S models - mezger bla bla bla

Vacationboy said: It isnt a GT3 though is it, still the boggo DFI engine ( lovely as it is) which serves in all the S models - mezger bla bla bla 964RS did not have much of a engine over a standard car, look at the prices on those now vs a C2S normal car. not saying the R will reach those prices as it's not a 911, but the R drives so well it will be sort after no question. even if prices are the same and never go up, it's still cheaper than buying and selling a 2.9 which was your question. As with any model miles kills price, which can be an avantage if you plan to do low miles which means you can pay less for a higher miles car which will ave out. If you have 40k to spend then imo it's a no brainer choice over a stock 2.9, just on resale alone, let alone how great a car it is. rising GT3 prices have def helped R prices for people who want to get into a drivers car and now don't have £75k for a 997.1 GT3. The R is the next best thing for 30k less !!! (when I say next best thing, some might say better ;-) ) Edited by mrdemon on Tuesday 9th December 14:44

Vacationboy said: It isnt a GT3 though is it, still the boggo DFI engine ( lovely as it is) which serves in all the S models - mezger bla bla bla thought you were describing the 991GT3 engine for a second there No it's not a GT3 and the GT4 could make a difference when it comes out, but it is the most focused modern car Porsche made barring the GT3 or 918 Spyder. never gonnna be £25k, shame because at that price i would be snapping one up to go with the GT3...

pete a said: but it is the most focused modern car Porsche made barring the GT3 or 918 Spyder. you forgot the 987.2 spyder!

itsybitsy said: you forgot the 987.2 spyder! Yeah i suppose i did, not driven one but my friend loves his one. They are not dropping too much either though are they.

mrdemon said: now don't have £75k for a 997.1 GT3. 997.1 GT3 are still £65-69k.....this week!

g7jhp said: 997.1 GT3 are still £65-69k.....this week! For a leggy, early not so great example of one. you may well yes - but lets not forget that the RRP of that car would have been c. £79k, not bad devaluation really? The R has a lot going for it, only a couple of hundred in existence, and half were manual and most reviews are nothing but praise for the car. I think it'll see a good hold on it's values, may well go down, but I don't think by a lot. Another thing in its favour os the plethora of PDK cars now being sold and when people are searching for a manual car they will have to look back to the 996/997 GT3s and Cayman Rs for that experience. Personally I don't think the 991 GT3 will be holding it's value much like the previous ones. Only my opinion of course, I could be utterly wrong.

CR everytime awsome Porsche limted numbers as well. So a good investment they are going up in value and why not they are a great car.Lots of people are waking up to that fact.

Vacationboy said: considering an R, which would mean 20.000 extra over a non-S really. Is it really that much better? and will it still hold a big premium when the time comes for sale? In terms of sheet fun, a 2.9 Manual with 18inch wheels and PSE will hold its own on the UK roads against a stock Cayman R. It might be one of the best drives period!

Carl_Docklands said: In terms of sheet fun, a 2.9 Manual with 18inch wheels and PSE will hold its own on the UK roads against a stock Cayman R. It might be one of the best drives period!

Carl_Docklands said: In terms of sheet fun, a 2.9 Manual with 18inch wheels and PSE will hold its own on the UK roads against a stock Cayman R. It might be one of the best drives period! thats all down to the PSE right?

Beanoir said: Carl_Docklands said: In terms of sheet fun, a 2.9 Manual with 18inch wheels and PSE will hold its own on the UK roads against a stock Cayman R. It might be one of the best drives period! thats all down to the PSE right? I think the whole package of small engine, non-DFI noise and nimbleness is hard to beat, to me it felt more like lotus-like.

Carl_Docklands said: Beanoir said: Carl_Docklands said: In terms of sheet fun, a 2.9 Manual with 18inch wheels and PSE will hold its own on the UK roads against a stock Cayman R. It might be one of the best drives period! thats all down to the PSE right? I think the whole package of small engine, non-DFI noise and nimbleness is hard to beat, to me it felt more like lotus-like. Common sense wasted on this forum occasionally Carl! I too love the 2.9 engine. Loves to rev! Would still have the R as its special by all accounts I've seen and read.

I sold my 19" and went 18" on my gen 1 Cayman also 19" on a ge1 one was not good at all. I have no issue with the R on 19" though Porsche have got the passive set up working quite well. 17" on a R would just be rolling the rubber off the wheel. And would make the whole car feel sloppy I would bet.

mrdemon said: I sold my 19" and went 18" on my gen 1 Cayman also 19" on a ge1 one was not good at all. I have no issue with the R on 19" though Porsche have got the passive set up working quite well. 17" on a R would just be rolling the rubber off the wheel. And would make the whole car feel sloppy I would bet. Post pic pls of your Cayman R Mrdemon. This thread is a travesty with no pics. Just posting a pic solves the dilemma for the OP!

What with all that rubber to move before the car reacts. You go on about porsche soft bushing etc and then fit a 55 profile tyre. Come on !!! You may need it to calm down the mess early PASM is lol ( you prob don't have PASM knowing you) but the R would loose some thing on 55 series I am sure of it. Porsche must know a little how to set the R up, how ever like a normal Cayman the R is, it,s the sus set up which makes it the car it is on the road to drive. A quote from best drivers car of the year 2011 :-) "Editor-at-large Steve Sutcliffe described the winning Cayman R’s steering as “about as sweet as it gets,” while its ride is “150 times better than it has any right to be considering how little body movement there is when you’re really going for it”.

I am all ears :-) The only place I see 55 series rubber an advantage is in the rain as it makes the car les edgy. As for seat of the pants dry change of direction , I first move the steering wheel, that moves the rack which moves my hub which moves my alloy, now it has to move the rubber but you are already turning left and need to now go right. So there would be a delay and the rubber catches up with your wheel in the change of direction, just like the engine mounts in my car, which I swapped out, I move my wheel for a change of direction every thing moves strIght away with it, No flexy side walls to live with. That now I see it anyway :-) yes you may get more feel at the limit which is why I stated in the wet it would help.

What's the side wall rating on a slick race tyre vs road ? So it runs 18" tyres, Slicks are a whole new ball game, you have ni on twice the rubber on the road and no moving tred blocks. Tyre temps are higher, I am no tyre expert, maybe break away on a low profile slick is just to fast and you need more feel. On a road car a lower profile tyre on a like for like car feels more direct and changes directing faster. No question imo. A slick has no tred blocks trying to go in one direction while you are trying to make the car go in another. Slip angles get confusing :-)

anonymous said: [redacted] I am asking you to explain the facts why, if you don't do that you may as well just keep the PDK vs manual thread going. Every time I ask for facts on PH it goes tits up and no one does one questioned ! I have ran older cars on 15" and gone to 17" rims, the cars more direct but harder to control on the limit in the wet. If you are talking you want more feel and to play with the car then yes a bit of movment in the tyre is good , as I stated in the wet you need more feel. But I await your teaching as I am not going to fit 17" on my R just to try it. Now a tyre these days Weighs more than a wheel, weight cannot be the answer which is what people used to say. You may be even fitting a combo which weighs more, so a neg effect on quite a few aspects of handling.

race tyres are totally different to road tyres so not even worth using as a comparison for this debate. I agree to a point that smaller wheels can make a car feel more lively, it's not actually down to the size though it's driven by the weight of the wheel, but obviously most smaller wheels will weigh less so therefore on a comparative basis the argument works. The contact patch will also be smaller and give less grip and result in a feeling of the car being more up on its toes. Different manufacturers tyres also play just as much a part in 'feel' as well, some having more or less sidewall flex etc. Other factors need to be considered, for instance some wheels are lighter by the material used, to use the topic of this thread for instance the Spyder wheels used on the Cayman R are one of or if not the lightest wheels Porsche had produced for a road car at the time. So horses for courses and no clear answer. So to put it simply a smaller wheel can feel more responsive but bigger wheels don't always feel less...

mrdemon said: What with all that rubber to move before the car reacts. You go on about porsche soft bushing etc and then fit a 55 profile tyre. Come on !!! You may need it to calm down the mess early PASM is lol ( you prob don't have PASM knowing you) but the R would loose some thing on 55 series I am sure of it. Porsche must know a little how to set the R up, how ever like a normal Cayman the R is, it,s the sus set up which makes it the car it is on the road to drive. A quote from best drivers car of the year 2011 :-) "Editor-at-large Steve Sutcliffe described the winning Cayman R’s steering as “about as sweet as it gets,” while its ride is “150 times better than it has any right to be considering how little body movement there is when you’re really going for it”. Actually a tyre with a higher side wall will give more feel through the chassis/ steering than a lower profile tyre - especially on a chassis with relatively high mechanical grip. Firstly the deformation of the side wall is far more progressive and telegraphs the onset of oversteer or understeer much earlier, and secondly because a surplus of mechanical grip ( i.e. that provided by the chassis ) over physical grip (provided by the tyre) will always result in a car that telegraphs feel to the driver earlier and in more detail than one that has a balance closer to a surplus of mechanical grip. Hence why a cup car on slicks - despite it's higher side walls - telegraphs the onset of over or understeer far later due to the very high physical grip level of the tyre. Thats why many novice drivers prefer driving cup cars on old tyres as they produce less grip, the balance of grip therefore flows back towards mechanical grip and the car subsequently is a lot easier to 'feel'. I can understand why you made the assumption that a lower profile would result in a more pure and feelsome driving experience but in reality you are quite wrong

A lot of these arguments seem so nonsensical, i mean 17,18,19 so what, it isnt going to make the car a GT3 or anything, just drive what it comes with! My 987.1 CS has 19 inch wheels and when i took them off was surprised how light they were, I had no interest in changing them. As for the supposed harshness of the 19, I changed the suspension to pss9 and got a far bigger improvement over stock in terms of ride but i wouldnt argue with anyone about oversteer/understeer, at least not in the context of a road car, as even completely standard these cars generate far more corner grip than you should be using on the road!

if you guys read my posts, I agree that there is more feel, and that helps in the wet for car control. But in the dry on a road tyre with 8mm tred blocks you get all the feel you need, and the car changes direction faster. So that's what I believe atm. The weight thing is a mute point today because a tyre weighs more than a hispec rim these days, so a 17" combo could act weigh more than a 19" combo. I am sad to see Cmoose would rather write 6 pages on PDK and have an argument over why manual is best to some numptys :-p , over being usefull and explaining his theory on tyres and sharing some real knowledge. as above post said, you cannot talk about slicks in the same way, there are no blocks which move about, so again I stated you may need a larger profile for feel on a slick to act drive the car to the max. you can see the blocks move when you look into slip angles and car control to a bigger degree. to quote a slip angle "Slip angle is a measurement of how much the tire's contact patch has twisted (steered) in relation to the wheel. A good way to demonstrate this characteristic is to stand beside your car and turn the steering wheel. If you watch the left front wheel, you will see that it steers a few degrees before the tire's contact patch starts to turn" thus why I think a car on a 35 series treded tyre will change direction faster than a car on a 55 series tyre. All be it the guy will have more feel on the 55 series rubber. which brings me back to wet driving and why you should fit a bigger series winter tyres. Edited by mrdemon on Thursday 11th December 09:57

It's amazing when you move a car onto smaller wheels it feels much more nimble a car feels. - 3.2 Carrera from 7 & 9" Fuchs to 6 & 7"s. - Caterham from 16" to 14" Most people who've done it will agree you'll get a better ride, require less effort turning, get more feel and tyres are cheaper. Downside being you won't look as good and will have less grip in certain situations.

It's all a bit old school because most of that is weight related ;-P ie fitting a lighter combo of /wheel/tyre. Todays top end wheels are lighter than the tyres you fit !!! 9kg for a wheel 12 kg for a tyre, you could down size and add weight thinking you are saving weight !

anonymous said: [redacted] It's a complete waste of time having the debate unless you are keeping some constant parameters. In particular unless you keep both the overall tyre diameter, rim width AND tyre width the same you never have a common base on which to debate. If the tyre diameter is changed you will raise or lower the ride height which itself will affect the handling. So if you go down in wheel size you must go up correspondingly in profile and so on. If you want to see the effects of changes in rim width, change ONLY that. But all that said it seems to me that you are actually in AGREEMENT (though I'm sure you'd never admit it). It's just that Mrdemon prefers the more immediate steering response of a lower profile tyre, cmoose the more mobile chassis with greater slip angles and progressive breakaway of a higher profile tyre.

Back to topic I also think the 2.9 on passive suspension would be a great first porsche and may even years to come be somewhat sort after(also add the 997.2 to that)!i mean 265hp is the same as the runout 986s 550 model so not to shabby!the only problem is most always dream of more power even owners of the CR! As for the non topic I always thought my 987.1 cs was a great handling car on passive suspension and 18" wheels and about 85% as good as a CR. Recently I test drove the 981 cayman 2.7 manual and 3.4 Pdk and I liked the 2.7 more but that could be a gearbox thing!

anonymous said: [redacted] you are letting your feel for the car which you love get in the way of the steering response now imo. there must be an optimum size for the cars, but you would have to be Adrian Newey to work it out. increased profile will cause a delay, it's not possible to do any thing less. The GT yota is a prime example you comment on, it looses grip and is fun to drive, but it's s t slow. It sounds like you just want a more progressive car which you can dance on the limits, not a faster car. what we want from a car seems not to tie in, I want torque and more grip and responsiveness , you want high reving car with thin tyres with less gip. while you think you will be having more fun, i'll just be going faster, and the feel in the dry at least is perfect as is.! I talked about the weight thing as I knew other people would bring it up, and that happened straight away :-)

Just my two pennies worth, Mr Demon, would you not consider taking CMoose up on his offer to try his 17" wheels, sounds like a very fair offer and you would be able to experience first hand whether you understand and agree/disagree with what he is saying without any significant outlay?

itsybitsy said: Back to topic I also think the 2.9 on passive suspension would be a great first porsche and may even years to come be somewhat sort after(also add the 997.2 to that)!i mean 265hp is the same as the runout 986s 550 model so not to shabby!the only problem is most always dream of more power even owners of the CR! As for the non topic I always thought my 987.1 cs was a great handling car on passive suspension and 18" wheels and about 85% as good as a CR. Recently I test drove the 981 cayman 2.7 manual and 3.4 Pdk and I liked the 2.7 more but that could be a gearbox thing! I wonder how many 2.9's are out there. I remember buying my brand new when the gen 2 had just come out. It was just the start of things going shakey in the economy. I had a chap from Norwich OPC trying to sell me a stock car with discount..unheard of a few months before, but I ended up pex my 987 gen 1 Boxster with my original OPC as Colchester for a Guards Red stock car with the same discount - Colchester nearer...I liked the service team plus I didn't like the drive up to Norfolk. As it was, the Norwich OPC shut down a few months later!!! In the 3 years I owned it, I didn't see many gen 2 2.9's around at all. Original question...would I pay the extra for a R?? If I had the extra money...yes. In percentage terms you'd get the same back on resale and have something a little more special. Would I run a Cayman on 17" alloys for a slightly better drive....NO WAY!! They look awful....!!

hey my 17 inch cayman wheels are nothing to be sniffed at! Winter edition : - )

Vacationboy said: hey my 17 inch cayman wheels are nothing to be sniffed at! Winter edition : - ) Ha ha....love the new car....you must very happy!

That doesnt look too bad : - )

anonymous said: [redacted] I think you're in the wrong car, get yourself an MX-5 with 14" wheels on and you'll be in the right one. Seriously though, I totally get the whole of smaller wheels can make for more "excitment" (not feel IMO) and i've been there and tried it myself. But I don't agree that it makes for more feel at all, it's just a different driving experience and personally not one I enjoy in a high powered sports car, in an MX-5 it's a whole barrel of laughs though. I have to say, I'm with MrD on this one.

I have just ordered a Winter set of 18s/Pirellis from OPC Towecester for my CR. What should I expect? My worn pilot sports on 19s are now lethal in the current cold greasy conditions - it's scary.

Better traction in cold weather particulalry below about 7C. Maybe slightly noiseier and will wear out in half the time. But isn't weird that Towcester is provounced "Toaster"...?

anonymous said: [redacted] Looks fine. Just needs to be lowered imo.

anonymous said: [redacted] I won't knock it till I've tried it although, the turbo might be a bit 'lively' on 17s so I will have to wait

the way i see it is with 35 setion tyres on 19" wheels to have the fun feeling of your car sliding and skiping about you have to be realy on it and it will happen so fast it is scary. with cars such as the GT86 or MX5 all this will happen at a much slower speed and happen slower so it can be enjoyed by less focused drivers. it is all about the feeling of having fun and that is were i thing the confusion comes from. you need to try to get an Atom on the limit and it will snap and bite your head off and they do run old school tyre sizes. it is hard to have those seat of your pants fun driving days with these modern tyres unles you are a realy good driver, brave or just stupid. perhaps Mr D is just a better driver and braver than some of us on here. MrD may argue a lot but he has had the cars that not a lot of people have had after all.

anonymous said: [redacted] I won't knock it till I've tried it although, the turbo might be a bit 'lively' on 17s so I will have to wait

KMF said: the way i see it is with 35 setion tyres on 19" wheels to have the fun feeling of your car sliding and skiping about you have to be realy on it and it will happen so fast it is scary. with cars such as the GT86 or MX5 all this will happen at a much slower speed and happen slower so it can be enjoyed by less focused drivers. it is all about the feeling of having fun and that is were i thing the confusion comes from. you need to try to get an Atom on the limit and it will snap and bite your head off and they do run old school tyre sizes. it is hard to have those seat of your pants fun driving days with these modern tyres unles you are a realy good driver, brave or just stupid. perhaps Mr D is just a better driver and braver than some of us on here. MrD may argue a lot but he has had the cars that not a lot of people have had after all. Perhaps we don't all drive like that though, and actually the other half of us get our kicks out of a car that tracks on rails and takes a corner faster...? Just a thought.

anonymous said: [redacted] It's quite funny Mr d asked for facts and he got that from Steve rance, but just still can't quite grasp how things work!!

I don't appreciate being referred to, in the round, as a numpty, the plural of which is numpties.

anonymous said: [redacted] Actually, that looks a lot better than when I've seen them in the flesh. Have you had it lowered? That front wheel doesn't look so 'up on stilts'...but then, I think the Gen 2's always sat a bit higher than your gen 1? I would even suggest that pic has been photoshopped....the rim of the wheel doesn't line with the bottom of the side indicator...unlike your other pictures!!! Edited to add.....re the Kahn comment, good lord noooo!!! I've always applied the same rules to all my cars. I will only use OEM parts for that car that were available from the original option list that were offered for the particular model. I also don't like adding newer oem items to older cars....i.e. gen 2 lights or wheels to a gen 1 car. I remember in my BMW 330i sport days, people would stick M3 copy wheels on them....I think it makes a car look dodgy! Plus I've always had brand new and been under the Porsche warranty! That puts pay to any mods for me! Edited by FrankCayman on Thursday 11th December 18:09

anonymous said: [redacted] I thought long and hard before spec'ing those to my 981. Like you, I went down the whole 'is it a Porsche wheel design?'....but looking in the past, there have always been a huge selection of designs. I love Fuchs and dog leg turbos....but I am not going to pop them on my 981! Take the 17" wheel you have on yours....it's a small version of the Carrera S 2 wheel I had on my 987 gen2 C.....it's pretty much bang on the same as the Lotus Evora or a Ferrari 430...hardly a 'Porsche wheel', I think you'd agree? In fact, the new Lotus Evora wheel looks just the same as mine..... Is that bloody awful allen key riddled 996 GT3 1 wheel a classic? People seem to love them....I think they're bloody awful looking. Wheels, just like car design, are fashion that change. At the moment, 'diamond cut' finish or black wheels are in vogue. Now, did you photoshop that last picture to lower the car, or have you had the new suspension fitted? It looks lowered to me! Edited by FrankCayman on Friday 12th December 07:19

What about the new sport design wheel straight of an Audi

These?

I agree with cmoose, those 20 inch wheels are ugly as f k. what were porsche thinking

IMO, the Carrera Classic wheel really doesn't have too much going on to make it 'ugly'....purely 10 evenly spaced out spokes. But obviously, wheel design is all about personal taste. I will say though, they are the easiest wheel to clean I've ever had on a car!! I was disappointed with the design for the standard 991 Turbo wheel....the design is too fussy. I can't really define what is a 'proper' Porsche wheel design. Cups, telephone dials, dog leg, fuchs...all completely different and suitable for the cars at that time.....

I have to admit, there are certain porsche wheels I absolutely detest. the 997.1 Turbo wheels being one of them, as well as those.

For me....I disiked the 987/997 Sport Design wheel....

FrankCayman said: For me....I disiked the 987/997 Sport Design wheel.... got a picture Frank?

Vacationboy said: I agree with cmoose, those 20 inch wheels are ugly as f k. what were porsche thinking I suspect they were thinking "There are people out there who will pay a couple of grand to personalise their wheels like this and lots more to personalise the interior/gearknob/fuel filler/headrests etc etc. And if they are prepared to pay it we are more than happy to take their money, since it hardly costs us anything to make them" The fact is that most of this sort of spending (as opposed to that to bring the spec up to what it should have been in the first place) will not be recovered on the secondhand market.

bcr5784 said: I suspect they were thinking "There are people out there who will pay a couple of grand to personalise their wheels like this and lots more to personalise the interior/gearknob/fuel filler/headrests etc etc. And if they are prepared to pay it we are more than happy to take their money, since it hardly costs us anything to make them" The fact is that most of this sort of spending (as opposed to that to bring the spec up to what it should have been in the first place) will not be recovered on the secondhand market. Of course Porsche make a lot of money on options...and you very rarely get it back when selling...but I like the fact that you have so many options. It allows me to lightly spec 981 to my tastes (not everyones!!!) and spend £45K. Others will easily go crazy and spend £60K on the same base car. I love the choice...rather that than having one size fits all.

Vacationboy said: got a picture Frank? these ones! http://www.paulfrench.co.uk/userimages/greycayman1... (hope link works) They only look ok in black with a silver rim (the black disguises all the bloody spokes!) ...I think they were painted like that to Cayman S Sports (the gen1 run out special). Edited by FrankCayman on Friday 12th December 14:28

Agreed Id be as tight as a teenage gnat if I specced a new car! base is best!

anonymous said: [redacted] How strange, they are my absolute favourite Porsche alloy! If I went out and bought the latest Porsche today it would have to have those alloys.

anonymous said: [redacted] Ha ha! :-) That's your opinion and I respect it. To be fair, I think they do look ok when the car is lowered....all the Caymans sit too high IMO....but I do like the 'bigger wheels' look wise and am happy ot compromise certain other aspects. And I must say, the 981 rides alot better on the 20" than the 987 rides on 19". But like I say, I just work with in what Porsche offer from new and stick with it. I saw a silver 986 with amber lights and standard wheels...completely untouched or modified....it looked great. That's how I like to keep my cars.....OEM and unmodified...but that's not to say I don't like the look of your mods - should look good without the aid of computer manipulation!!!

anonymous said: [redacted] And why should you care, it's your car. I am glad you are gradually bonding with it. Hopefully when you get the suspension to your liking, you will enjoy many years of fun together! I loved my 987 and have bonded equally well with my 981. But I know what it's like when you do buy a car that you don't like.....it's a pain in the bum having to sell...plus usually costly! I paid £9K to get out of BMW Coupe that I'd had for a year and 30,000 miles.....I hated the bloody thing!!!