996 Turbo - too fast to enjoy - Page 4 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Hi - I have been mulling over a 996 Turbo purchase for the last couple of weeks. I'm drawn to them for their looks and the engine. I know they can be expensive to maintain and am happy to take the hit there if it comes to it. The only thing really holding me back at this stage is the actual day to day driving experience. Background to this is a C6 RS6 I bough about e year ago - it's simply too fast for the road to enjoy consistenly. Am I going to be in the same spot or will the 911 experience make it worth it in the round?

I'd say it's likely, wouldn't you? A few years back I went from a 997.1 C2 to a 997.2 Turbo PDK, and felt exactly the same. The Turbo was just too fast to enjoy. The C2 offered a better experience because you could wind it up and sure, you'd get a ticket but you wouldn't be going to jail. Similarly, I bought an F80 M3 about 18 months ago and sold it three months ago for the same reasons; wasn't exciting unless you were driving it hard, by which point you'd be well into goodbye-licence territory. I'd say you've answered your own question.

it's extremely fast, though it's slow compared to todays supercars (people will only buy a new car if it's faster than the older version) it does depend slightly on the types of roads your going fast on though

They are certainly fast on the road, but I wouldn't say too fast. I recently had a test drive in a 992 GTS and it didn't seem a whole lot faster than my 996, the 992 had a smoother power delivery but I like to feel a bit of school boost which the 996 definitely has.

Depends if you love driving on a wave of torque, which you can do in a 966 turbo without going mad. I do. At least on public roads where you just can't explore the upper reaches - well not often, or safely anyway.

simonsti said: They are certainly fast on the road, but I wouldn't say too fast. I recently had a test drive in a 992 GTS and it didn't seem a whole lot faster than my 996, the 992 had a smoother power delivery but I like to feel a bit of school boost which the 996 definitely has. LOL - I take it you haven't seen this then? A 992 GTS has 100bhp more than the regular 992 Carrera that was tested here, and even the regular Carrera beat the 996 Turbo by a massive unbelievable margin! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3Cab0NZxNs

There's been a few threads similar to this over the years. I have a 991 Turbo S Cab and had it not been a cab I'd sure I'd have got rid of it pretty quickly, haven't really used it since the end of the summer, too quick to enjoy sums it up. Many cars are like this nowadays, even things that aren't that special.

Schuey_911 said: simonsti said: They are certainly fast on the road, but I wouldn't say too fast. I recently had a test drive in a 992 GTS and it didn't seem a whole lot faster than my 996, the 992 had a smoother power delivery but I like to feel a bit of school boost which the 996 definitely has. LOL - I take it you haven't seen this then? A 992 GTS has 100bhp more than the regular 992 Carrera that was tested here, and even the regular Carrera beat the 996 Turbo by a massive unbelievable margin! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3Cab0NZxNs Operative here is feel - often old school boosty motors feel a lot faster than their modern counterparts. I've got a 996 c2 and I think much more than 300bhp in 1300kgs would be a struggle to enjoy on the road assuming you actually want to rev the motor out.

shalmaneser said: Schuey_911 said: simonsti said: They are certainly fast on the road, but I wouldn't say too fast. I recently had a test drive in a 992 GTS and it didn't seem a whole lot faster than my 996, the 992 had a smoother power delivery but I like to feel a bit of school boost which the 996 definitely has. LOL - I take it you haven't seen this then? A 992 GTS has 100bhp more than the regular 992 Carrera that was tested here, and even the regular Carrera beat the 996 Turbo by a massive unbelievable margin! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3Cab0NZxNs Operative here is feel - often old school boosty motors feel a lot faster than their modern counterparts. I've got a 996 c2 and I think much more than 300bhp in 1300kgs would be a struggle to enjoy on the road assuming you actually want to rev the motor out. That's a fair comment, 'feel' being the key word. As long as it brings a smile to your face, then that's what counts

Schuey_911 said: simonsti said: They are certainly fast on the road, but I wouldn't say too fast. I recently had a test drive in a 992 GTS and it didn't seem a whole lot faster than my 996, the 992 had a smoother power delivery but I like to feel a bit of school boost which the 996 definitely has. LOL - I take it you haven't seen this then? A 992 GTS has 100bhp more than the regular 992 Carrera that was tested here, and even the regular Carrera beat the 996 Turbo by a massive unbelievable margin! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3Cab0NZxNs Yes I have seen the video thanks. I wasn't driving on track and I know a 992 is faster, but all I was trying to say is that because of how smooth it was it didn't feel that much faster. For me, a 996 turbo is plenty fast enough on the road.

simonsti said: Yes I have seen the video thanks. I wasn't driving on track and I know a 992 is faster, but all I was trying to say is that because of how smooth it was it didn't feel that much faster. For me, a 996 turbo is plenty fast enough on the road. Fair enough simonsti, I understand what you're saying better now.

It’s normally aspirated cars with overly long gearing that are harder to enjoy on the road. Thankfully there are race tracks.

shalmaneser said: Operative here is feel - often old school boosty motors feel a lot faster than their modern counterparts. I've got a 996 c2 and I think much more than 300bhp in 1300kgs would be a struggle to enjoy on the road assuming you actually want to rev the motor out. Indeed. Years ago, I remember running a family friends' Evo VIII FQ330 back to him with my old man following in his 550. The 550 absolutely slaughtered the Evo on a motorway slip road but I drove the 550 back home and it didn't feel anywhere near as fast Also before someone suggests the owner wouldn't have appreciated me thrashing his Evo, he was a fellow racer and he encouraged me to enjoy a brisk drive back in it

I think a good chunk of it has to do with the drivetrain, my last 911 was a 992S with PDK, it just lacked the fun factor of previous 911’s and always felt too quick for the road. I think a manual 996T will be a hoot and fun at most speeds.

I've had my manual X50 for 13 years now, whilst it certainly fast its not too much for the road, especially when compared to modern stuff out there. The key for me is it feels quicker than it actually is, mainly due to the old school slightly agricultural & laggy engine which brings the power in with a bang. Its this what makes me hang onto it as it always puts a grin on your face. You could pick up an RS3 which would be quicker in a straight line, but it would be dull in comparison. The only issue I have is the traction, we all know the fun starts where the traction stops. The down side here been they're so planted, when they do break free your really pushing on so you're more s tting yourself than grinning. Get one bought.

Having had a few ‘fast’ cars and still having a clean license - you don’t need to drive around at break neck speeds to enjoy a powerful car - book some track days for that.

Yes the car is too fast for the road, but you knew that anyway. This car has max torque at 2700 rpm and Max power at 6k rpm. It also will max first gear at 39mph and 2nd gear at 70 mph and will do 200 mph or there or thereabouts. There’s always been cars that have been too fast for the road, the difference now is that your chances of getting caught is significantly higher than years ago. This car is not about the numbers per se, it’ll be about how it makes you feel in those short bursts. The rush, the hilarity and sensation of immense speed. That is all that you can get out of it unless you trip to Germany and their unrestricted autobahns.

I have no first hand experience of driving it. My friend has one and took me for a blast down the A1, well in to jail territory (wrong side of 140). Even he admitted he’d made a mistake. It’s a 1 trick pony, brutal straight line speed drag racing. In terms of an actual driving experience, he regretted selling his 997.1 C2S

Think it depends what you like/want from a car. Is it a daily and you like to have that 'knowledge' you can quickly power past anything if needed but cruise along in comfort all year round. Or do you want a car that has steering full of feedback and enables you to dial corners and find that balance between corner speed and powering out on fine days. IMO the turbo is for the first option and something like a C2 996/7 for the second.

Manual or tip? I had a 997.1 TT tip cab back in the day - that was definitely ditchwater unless you were really pressing on, I suspect because the combination of slushbox and turbos took all the immediacy out of the throttle unless you were on full boost and had the converter locked up. They also have a fairly dull chassis as standard, in my opinion - certainly you're not going to get the car moving around on the road at any sane speed. On the other hand I now have a 720s, which is definitely on the fast side of fast, but never dull. I'd get a 997.2 C2S unless you have some deep need for 4wd.

964Cup said: Manual or tip?... Very good point. Tiptronic would be a hard no for me, manual most definitely. Fun car, not too fast at all, use diligently.

prtyqwerty said: Hi - I have been mulling over a 996 Turbo purchase for the last couple of weeks. I'm drawn to them for their looks and the engine. I know they can be expensive to maintain and am happy to take the hit there if it comes to it. The only thing really holding me back at this stage is the actual day to day driving experience. Background to this is a C6 RS6 I bough about e year ago - it's simply too fast for the road to enjoy consistenly. Am I going to be in the same spot or will the 911 experience make it worth it in the round? Interesting From the fast cars I started off with E39 M5 then onto 996 targa (about 20 yrs ago) then a 996tt then another 996tt after I crashed the fist then a G4 Defender then M;'sBMWs, then into E63 AMG 2wd, then RS6 (C7) then E63 4wd then back to 991.2 Targa. So bit of a full circle. The 996tt was great - very fast but lacked the long term smile factor. It wanted to go fast everywhere. I felt I "needed" to go fast everywhere. The tree disagreed. The AMGs were great -really great as was the RS6 but my heart was still back in the Targa. Why? the 991.2 has about the same BHP as my old 996tt so its fast enough but it has the Targa roof trick and I love having the roof off but not being on show like a cab. I have really considered cars and why and I think the Targa is the one to keep or get a newer one one day becasue I love 4wd, love the open roof so I dont "feel" I have to go fast unless i want to. Sure like another RS6 but not to replace the Targa. as other have said getting a car that goes fast doesnt really last long enough its the smile factor thats more important. Heck my G4 defender was a very smile/fun factor car and is up for the longest time for keeping a car for me. not fast but fun/smiles. Edited by superlightr on Thursday 15th December 15:23

I found the 996 turbo a bit uninvolving versus the C2. It just didn't have much steering adjustability on the throttle which the C2 does. If your fun is in the sheer acceleration then it's ok. That wasn't for me,

The Wookie said: Indeed. Years ago, I remember running a family friends' Evo VIII FQ330 back to him with my old man following in his 550. The 550 absolutely slaughtered the Evo on a motorway slip road but I drove the 550 back home and it didn't feel anywhere near as fast Also before someone suggests the owner wouldn't have appreciated me thrashing his Evo, he was a fellow racer and he encouraged me to enjoy a brisk drive back in it Certainly, my EVO V was one of the fastest cars I have owned, not necessarily because of its speed, but its ability to get the power down earlier and harder than most other cars. On the Mway, M3's would fly past but on anything with good bends, they just didn't allow the driver to really exploit that power as easily. Now, my 89 3.2 Carrera (strangely) feels almost the same as the 997 GT3 in the way the weight transfers, the response to the steering etc. Its going a lot slower of course but just doesn't feel it so as such its fun on the road as much as a 997 GT3 is on the track (well.. almost ) The odd thing is, the 996 turbo I drove just did not feel as good. Too comfort orientated and too soft. Lots of power but not as sharp (though the tiptronic might have spoilt it a bit)

The 996T is not too fast. If anything a bit more power might be welcome. It is however a car for specific roads. It's not chuckable, so not really fun in extremely tight hairpin or near enough turns, and it's not an event when doing 20mph as some loud exotics might be. But it's an amazing drive when you find the right sort of road full of middling-speed curves, the more the merrier, when you get into your stride and can savour the handling and steering feel.

I found the 996t a bit boring to drive. It was a manual with sports pipe and remap….the speedo did some big numbers but it didn’t really feel quick.

Not the same car but I had a 997.2 Turbo and it wasn’t the speed that was dull but the overall driver engagement. It felt like a heavy car and wasn’t chuckable at all. For a long haul GT car it was fantastic but then so is a BMW 5 series or Bentley. I preferred my Boxster 987.1 S, still do. The speed of a 911 Turbo is without doubt phenomenal but I wouldn’t describe it as a fun car. Maybe the 996 is more analogue but the turbo lag would ruin the experience for me. I’m sticking to NA cars from now on as I prefer the immediacy of the throttle response.

Certainly a 996 turbo not too quick for UK roads. Having said that as a base for a project (a proper one) I can't think of many if any faster cars. I've seen these on track both have 800bhp. Driver does need to be able to pedal in these track monsters or they'll be in heaven

I have a 996 turbo daily for 3 years now. In some ways it IS too fast to enjoy ... part of the reason for that is the gearing, which is very long, and part of the reason for that is the speed you need to be going for the car to feel as if it's woken up, e.g. being on it in 3rd, which is probably because of the weight and the width of the rears. It's easy to end up on the wrong side of speed limits when you are concentrating on having fun - that's the dangerous part to your license. It also feels a little flat at low revs compared to modern DFI engines, but I'm sure a trip to ChipWizards to have it mapped will sort that. The engine is utterly glorious. It's enough to make the difference to me. It feels and sounds very special compared to the standard cars (I'm talking inside the car). I quite enjoy listening to it as it passes 3K revs. The top-end is dull because it's a turbo and there is no point in using the red line except when you want to hang onto a gear for a corner. Compared to the 1999 3.4 C2 it replaced, it feels much heavier (200KG in it, almost), echoing what others have said about the turbos in general, however the trade-off of that is that it feels very confident no matter the weather, which when you live in the West Coast of Scotland is important I'd also take issue with it being described as soft - it's much firmer suspended than a factory C2. I think the weight and the better soundproofing maybe play tricks. So yes it feels more refined, but it's still a sports car and it still turns in well, just not as good as a 2WD car. Having been the previous owner of two highly-strung DC2 ITRs, a 1997 Boxster and a 1999 C2, I really appreciate cars that feel light and nimble. Ideally I'd have a 996GT3 CS but I still need four seats for the kids at this point in my life, so that can wait for at least another year.

Perceptions of what is fast have of course changed significantly with the introduction of EVs. My ipace make my 997 C4S feel positively pedestrian.

S600BSB said: Perceptions of what is fast have of course changed significantly with the introduction of EVs. My ipace make my 997 C4S feel positively pedestrian. in what manner? both are what about 4.5 sec 0-60 - mid range? or just the feel of them? Curious as neither are slow or unresponsive just strange to me to call one pedestrian compared to the other. One may be super fast and the other very fast but not pedestrian surely? Edited by superlightr on Thursday 22 December 11:51

superlightr said: S600BSB said: Perceptions of what is fast have of course changed significantly with the introduction of EVs. My ipace make my 997 C4S feel positively pedestrian. in what manner? both are what about 4.5 sec 0-60 - mid range? or just the feel of them? Curious as neither are slow or unresponsive just strange to me to call one pedestrian compared to the other. One may be super fast and the other very fast but not pedestrian surely? Edited by superlightr on Thursday 22 December 11:51 "perception" would be about the power delivery. Driving any ICE vehicle with a manual gearbox, just suddenly depressing the throttle in whichever gear you were in while driving along normally, not much will happen. With an EV, all that the car can give you is there, all the time, instantly available as soon as the throttle pedal is depressed, and peak torque is at zero revs. It just can't give you any more. With the ICE a gear change that brings you close to peak power revs is required, and the closer you are the more it gives you but the more rapidly yet another change is required. Instant power (torque actually) has a massive influence on how fast a car feels. Even a softer throttle spring on any car does this despite there naturally being no performance change. Numbers are numbers but perception is literally all in the mind.

996TT02 said: "perception" would be about the power delivery. Driving any ICE vehicle with a manual gearbox, just suddenly depressing the throttle in whichever gear you were in while driving along normally, not much will happen. With an EV, all that the car can give you is there, all the time, instantly available as soon as the throttle pedal is depressed, and peak torque is at zero revs. It just can't give you any more. With the ICE a gear change that brings you close to peak power revs is required, and the closer you are the more it gives you but the more rapidly yet another change is required. Instant power (torque actually) has a massive influence on how fast a car feels. Even a softer throttle spring on any car does this despite there naturally being no performance change. Numbers are numbers but perception is literally all in the mind. I've noticed this on lots of cars these days and it's true on the Taycan too, that the first 1/2 of the throttle pedal is more sensitive and demands a lot more than 1/2 the available torque from the engine/motor than the last 1/2 giving the perception, in normal driving, that the car is much faster than it is.

i dont think you will find it too fast based on what you have already. i have an M4 competition as well as the 996tt and they make a really good pair. the M4 does feel too fast for the road because it is very accessible, modern power and dct. It also feels so much bigger than the 996 which may be because the steering is nowhere near as accurate and feelsome as the 996 hecde difficult to place. i have recently refurb'd the suspension and considered going to ohlins but instead went standard again...i dont track it, so whats the point? I dont want to be in agony because my ego feels it needs something uprated. I also like the old school turbo feeling that you get in the 996...slow slow build full on!! They are also totally amazing in rubbishy conditions - i live in scotland.

pmr01 said: i dont think you will find it too fast based on what you have already. i have an M4 competition as well as the 996tt and they make a really good pair. the M4 does feel too fast for the road because it is very accessible, modern power and dct. It also feels so much bigger than the 996 which may be because the steering is nowhere near as accurate and feelsome as the 996 hecde difficult to place. i have recently refurb'd the suspension and considered going to ohlins but instead went standard again...i dont track it, so whats the point? I dont want to be in agony because my ego feels it needs something uprated. I also like the old school turbo feeling that you get in the 996...slow slow build full on!! They are also totally amazing in rubbishy conditions - i live in scotland. Apologies if this comes across as me being passive aggressive/the usual strawman forum response or just plain snotty. It’s not intended that way ... Have you actually driven a Porsche, any Porsche, though preferably a 996, with a set of high end, appropriately sprung and valved dampers, set up by someone who knows how to adjust them to work on the road ? (and that last bit really is key) Maybe you equate high end Motorsport dampers with a stiff/hard/harsh unforgiving ride and ride heights that would see the front splitter kissing the tarmac ? I ask, because rest assured, you don’t need to track a car to reap the benefits of high end dampers (and as for that ego stuff, I’m afraid you’ve completely lost me) I briefly owned a “standard” 420hp 996 Turbo that had been fitted with a Ruf exhaust and a 480-490hp remap along with Ruf optimised PSS9 Bilsteins coilovers. Those few mods were transformative (and Bilstein PSS9’s are far from being a high end damper, ditto Ohlins Road &Track) but the suspension kit was the standout modification, as it made the 996’s somewhat blunt chassis into something altogether more focused and more wieldy, which in turn meant you could use and enjoy more of the power, more of the time, but the icing on the cake was the uprated suspension didn’t compromise the car’s usability in any way. There were, quite literally, no downsides. With the benefit of hindsight I can honestly say that if someone offered me the option of larger/hybrid turbos, bigger/better intercoolers along with freer-flowing cats and exhaust, with a remap to enable 580hp from a 996 Turbo or ... a set of £7k Ohlins, Exe-TC’s, Tractives etc, I’d take the dampers every time. Having that 580hp at your disposal, along with the ability to overtake pretty much anything at will, and smoke all but the most exotic of cars at a traffic light Grand Prix, is great, but if you can’t effectively deploy that kind of power in the twisties, on give and take A and B roads in all conditions (which is the Turbo’s whole raisin d’etre) it’s a bit pointless and all gets a bit frustrating. There is no ego involved in this decision, the fact of the matter is, the 996 Turbo’s chassis is good in standard form, but it’s certainly not great, put bluntly the factory left a lot on the table when it comes to improving it. Likewise the stock 330mm/4 pot brakes. Well thought out upgrades using high quality components needn’t introduce compromises into an otherwise excellent platform. And in the case of high end dampers, you really can have your cake and eat it. If you’ve not driven or passengered in a car fitted with some well specified and set up aftermarket motorsport dampers, I strongly advise you do so. You may be very pleasantly surprised at the benefits.

superlightr said: S600BSB said: Perceptions of what is fast have of course changed significantly with the introduction of EVs. My ipace make my 997 C4S feel positively pedestrian. in what manner? both are what about 4.5 sec 0-60 - mid range? or just the feel of them? Curious as neither are slow or unresponsive just strange to me to call one pedestrian compared to the other. One may be super fast and the other very fast but not pedestrian surely? Edited by superlightr on Thursday 22 December 11:51 No, not pedestrian. The thing with the EV is massive amounts of instant torque at pretty much any speed.

Slippydiff said: pmr01 said: i dont think you will find it too fast based on what you have already. i have an M4 competition as well as the 996tt and they make a really good pair. the M4 does feel too fast for the road because it is very accessible, modern power and dct. It also feels so much bigger than the 996 which may be because the steering is nowhere near as accurate and feelsome as the 996 hecde difficult to place. i have recently refurb'd the suspension and considered going to ohlins but instead went standard again...i dont track it, so whats the point? I dont want to be in agony because my ego feels it needs something uprated. I also like the old school turbo feeling that you get in the 996...slow slow build full on!! They are also totally amazing in rubbishy conditions - i live in scotland. Apologies if this comes across as me being passive aggressive/the usual strawman forum response or just plain snotty. It’s not intended that way ... Have you actually driven a Porsche, any Porsche, though preferably a 996, with a set of high end, appropriately sprung and valved dampers, set up by someone who knows how to adjust them to work on the road ? (and that last bit really is key) Maybe you equate high end Motorsport dampers with a stiff/hard/harsh unforgiving ride and ride heights that would see the front splitter kissing the tarmac ? I ask, because rest assured, you don’t need to track a car to reap the benefits of high end dampers (and as for that ego stuff, I’m afraid you’ve completely lost me) I briefly owned a “standard” 420hp 996 Turbo that had been fitted with a Ruf exhaust and a 480-490hp remap along with Ruf optimised PSS9 Bilsteins coilovers. Those few mods were transformative (and Bilstein PSS9’s are far from being a high end damper, ditto Ohlins Road &Track) but the suspension kit was the standout modification, as it made the 996’s somewhat blunt chassis into something altogether more focused and more wieldy, which in turn meant you could use and enjoy more of the power, more of the time, but the icing on the cake was the uprated suspension didn’t compromise the car’s usability in any way. There were, quite literally, no downsides. With the benefit of hindsight I can honestly say that if someone offered me the option of larger/hybrid turbos, bigger/better intercoolers along with freer-flowing cats and exhaust, with a remap to enable 580hp from a 996 Turbo or ... a set of £7k Ohlins, Exe-TC’s, Tractives etc, I’d take the dampers every time. Having that 580hp at your disposal, along with the ability to overtake pretty much anything at will, and smoke all but the most exotic of cars at a traffic light Grand Prix, is great, but if you can’t effectively deploy that kind of power in the twisties, on give and take A and B roads in all conditions (which is the Turbo’s whole raisin d’etre) it’s a bit pointless and all gets a bit frustrating. There is no ego involved in this decision, the fact of the matter is, the 996 Turbo’s chassis is good in standard form, but it’s certainly not great, put bluntly the factory left a lot on the table when it comes to improving it. Likewise the stock 330mm/4 pot brakes. Well thought out upgrades using high quality components needn’t introduce compromises into an otherwise excellent platform. And in the case of high end dampers, you really can have your cake and eat it. If you’ve not driven or passengered in a car fitted with some well specified and set up aftermarket motorsport dampers, I strongly advise you do so. You may be very pleasantly surprised at the benefits. right...try again but a little bit nicer thanks for your input. At the time i dismissed the pss9 as everyone was forum'ing that the Ohlins were the one to go for but then there was some kind of Production issue with them so they were unavailable. i spoke to my usual Porsche indy and another P specialist on what my needs were and my likely uses, and i decided that i wanted it standard, but new. i made sure that dampers were refurb'd by Bilstein with new springs and all associated suspension components were replaced if they looked like they needed it. I must admit i have noticed a huge difference just with that. even at that the control is far far better than it was. yep, i'll bet that the Ohlins would have been amazing but you can only piss with the size of c0ck that you have. I have another 7 cars and motorbikes to maintain and felt that there were other priorities in the mix and that 'my ego' (other terms are available) may like the premium product....but chances are i wouldn't be able to fully exploit all of the advantages with my use / the extra outlay wouldn't necessarily change the bang for buck equation that much. as it turns out, having had an unexpected hydraulic system total failure and an advisory that states that i need some corrosion attended to (OP, this does happen....they are all getting to that kind of age now), my wallet feels that the refurb'd Bilsteins were a great choice :-)

^^^^ Its so important for owners to know exactly what they're looking for from their own 911 before carrying out any mods let alone suspension as ride comfort is so subjective. Lets face it not all of us are driving Gods! I've tried all the above set ups (and more including both B16 Damptronic both comfort and club sport) on my favourite roads as their owners ( PH members ) were kind enough to let me have a go. For 9 out of 10 drivers I'd genuinely recommend stock. Thats the real world ratio of who actually benefits from any sort of suspension upgrade TBH. Other than B16 Damptronic comfort and maybe TracTive all these after market set ups firmer than say a stock 996 GT2 and or 997 GT2 RS out of the factory both 911s which I personally find too firm for dd road use with heavy control weights an additional chore for dd. In fact in a stock 6 GT2 even with "only" 450bhp (these days pffft) I'd maybe kill myself. Most enthusiast with a decent bit of tuition would be fine on a smooth track in a 6 GT2 but throw in some standing water, coolant or diesel and some booost on a fast UK "a road" or even on a bumpy slip road joining a dual carriage way it would be flipping curtains. Its soooo important to know your own limits as good friends of mine from track scene have sadly had fatal outcomes. The even sadder thing is I predicated some of those fatal outcomes. The mate's 991 in question was pushing out will over 1700 whp so 2000bhp mind and I knew well in advance the driver didn't have the skill to match the bhp may he RIP. The sadder part is I recommend the two short listed tuners as the bad boy in question actually asked me for some recs having watched me on track dong well against bikes on a soaking wet day my 911 turbo looked like Bluebird I have a vid somewhere I think. Tractive is amazing but it is active and digital. 996 turbo being what I'd describe as the last of the analogue 911 turbos particularly in GT2 form is truly a widow maker for the average driver (me included as I pass 50 I've noticed a drop off in abilty). Tractive of course an amazing amazing option and worth noting you'd be turning any 996 into something a bit more modern and definitely a bit firmer too but again I go back to comfort levels so subjective my friends think a stock 997 turbo is too firm ( they drive very expensive Bentleys/RR and think I'm mad). You'd also be spending 10% of the value of a say a time warp 996 turbo on some of these newer sports suspension set ups (maybe more) when you throw in the inevitable suspension refresh and labour for fitting so not cheap. Something nice about leaving a classic like a 996 turbo or 996 C2/C4/C4S the way it came out the factory and cruising around at 6/10s. I bet Bilstein rebuilt that stock suspension back better probably to B6 spec. Those Germans take pride in their work

Bit of a thread revival, but interesting discussion. The 996 turbo is waay too fast for UK road IF you drive it anywhere near its limit. I.e you'll be in licence losing speeds without any driver effort. To get a s tbox hatchback above 100mph you have to really mean it To get a 996 turbo >100mph can easily be done without actually giving it much thought - i.e cruising along on motorway, next thing you're in triple digits. and when you do find some open space/country roads the UK weather isnt the best for traction either lol

I think we need to be clear about what "too fast" means. Pretty much anything "sporty" - in which I include hot hatches and the faster versions of repmobiles - made after the 80s is "too fast" to be driven at 10/10 on public roads. You can certainly find yourself in traction trouble on damp roads in a 964 C2 with a whole 250bhp on a good day. In my view we're talking about two different things: 1. Can you drive the car with intent and enjoy it? Is it involving at vaguely sensible speeds, do you get any sense of involvement, steering feel, "flow" without having fully to commit? 2. How much of the performance is usable before you terrify yourself or others, or run out of road or grip, or have insuperable problems with UK road surfaces? If the car isn't fun (obviously not an objective measure) unless you're wringing its neck then it needs to be pretty slow. I mentioned earlier that I had a 997.1 turbo tip cab a while back (2009, I think). I found it sterile and boring unless I was committed. That lead to more than one occasion where I found myself at 150 leptons on a French D road thinking that I was just starting to enjoy myself. So I sold it. Clearly the transmission was part of the problem, but the combination of smooth power delivery, four-wheel drive and benign (read mildly understeery) handling also contributed. I have a 356 with a hottish motor. It wouldn't see which way a second-tier modern hot hatch went, and while it's all done at about 110, my ears and confidence in 60-year-old components are all done a bit earlier. As a result I can drive it pretty much flat out whenever I want to and most of the time I won't even be breaking the speed limit. It's much more fun than the 997 was - but of course only barely usable for any practical purpose. I also have a McLaren 720s. That is comprehensively too fast. But actually it's not. There's something about the steering feel, the engine response and the handling that makes it still exciting and enjoyable even when you're barely trying. Occasions where you will use full throttle in any gear on the road in the UK are few and far between, but you don't have to in order to have fun. On damp roads in cold weather, especially on the OEM Pirellis, the answer to question two above was "almost none at all", but better tyres help a bit and you just have to choose your moments to go fast. A 997 turbo would be hands down the faster cross-country car in poor weather (perhaps the answer to enjoying a 997TT is to drive it only in the rain?) I tried the Artura this week. It's very well put together and feels much more modern than the 720, but it definitely suffers from breaking rule 1. It's too smooth, too linear, too refined to be exciting until you're pushing too hard. There are several reasons I didn't like it, but that was the most significant, I think. A car needs to feel alive to be worth driving for fun - just going fast isn't the point.

Good point.. I have a ~500bhp 996 Turbo and a 200bhp 1981 3.0 911 SC. The SC is beautiful to drive on country roads - you dont need to break speed limits to make the car come alive. Its not a nice drive at a constant 70mph motorway journey though. The 996 Turbo is just a sledge hammer. Its fun, but you are risking a prison sentence any time you want to stretch its legs. The noise/acceleration etc are all 'fun' but the feedback is very different to SC. BUT I would choose it for a longer trip for sure LOL

perhaps this a better way of thinking about it. Its difficult to fully enjoy a Turbo 'legally' on the road. A track is a different story. The car is so capable, has so much potential speed, that it cant really used anywhere near its limit on the public roads. The SC will still do way over 100mph easily, but you certainly know about it and put some effort in to get there

Very similar in performance to a base Cayman. https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/co6eabnb77ha Well it surprised me.

I never found the regular 996 turbo too fast at all,it got silly from the 997 turbo onwards.

Certainly not too fast to enjoy.

I recently purchased an 04 996tt tip cab, mostly for weekend trips with my wife and balance power / sunshine. I’m also a bit surprised how worried I am in mountain corners vs. a 996 4s I test drove where I was comfortable going flat out many a time (and was worried that it wouldn’t be enough power long term). Will I get used to the TT’s power as I own it longer? Should I take some track lessons so I can learn to fully enjoy it (and understand its limits)?

cnath said: I recently purchased an 04 996tt tip cab, mostly for weekend trips with my wife and balance power / sunshine. I’m also a bit surprised how worried I am in mountain corners vs. a 996 4s I test drove where I was comfortable going flat out many a time (and was worried that it wouldn’t be enough power long term). Will I get used to the TT’s power as I own it longer? Should I take some track lessons so I can learn to fully enjoy it (and understand its limits)? Yes and absolutely yes. Enjoy! ETA I mean you don't *need* to take it on track or have any track instruction but it will be bloody good fun regardless and IMO the best value upgrade you can do to any car! Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 12th December 14:12

pheonix478 said: cnath said: I recently purchased an 04 996tt tip cab, mostly for weekend trips with my wife and balance power / sunshine. I’m also a bit surprised how worried I am in mountain corners vs. a 996 4s I test drove where I was comfortable going flat out many a time (and was worried that it wouldn’t be enough power long term). Will I get used to the TT’s power as I own it longer? Should I take some track lessons so I can learn to fully enjoy it (and understand its limits)? Yes and absolutely yes. Enjoy! ETA I mean you don't *need* to take it on track or have any track instruction but it will be bloody good fun regardless and IMO the best value upgrade you can do to any car! Edited by pheonix478 on Tuesday 12th December 14:12 The 996tt is very controllable over the limit and in most cases you can keep your foot in and steer where you want to go and the car will come with you. I found a GT3 to be much harder to drive over the limit and a lot more twitchy. On mountain corners you should not get massively out of shape and it may not really need much steering correcting, it will probably just get some drive and continue unless pushing the laws of physics.

Driver training could be an idea but also just driving the car more frequently so you get used to it. Things happen more quickly so you will have to be paying more attention and plan further ahead to avoid becoming a passenger. As for the original topic, I've had my car for just over 2 years now. I bounce between a shed of some kind and my 996 Turbo. I don't know why people are saying it's boring because every single time I get in it, it feels like an event. Even just sitting in it with the engine off! Maybe everyone else dailies a Caterham 7? Re the speed, even with my tiptronic and a standard tune, launching at the lights is a bit of a thrill. Start in first, accelerate, pop it into second gear (by moving the gear shifter to the right) and just stop accelerating as you're hitting the speed limit in a 40 or 50 zone. It'll do me. Joining a motorway is of course fun as you can accelerate for that bit longer. Otherwise, driving in the twisties feels so good. Much better than my sheds in the last few years (which coincidentally had been RWD until recently) - the Mk1 TT comes close but when I jump into the Porsche, I think, "Oh yeah." It's another couple of levels in terms of driving fun. Even with a tiptronic box! Maybe I'm just lucky. Or my suspension is broken. Edited by Hoofy on Tuesday 12th December 16:39

MB140 said: I have no first hand experience of driving it. My friend has one and took me for a blast down the A1, well in to jail territory (wrong side of 140). Even he admitted he’d made a mistake. It’s a 1 trick pony, brutal straight line speed drag racing. In terms of an actual driving experience, he regretted selling his 997.1 C2S Well the wife and I bought a 996 turbo a few months back, previous owner had paid for the updated k24 turbos, essentially the x50 pack, boosts to 1.2 bar, Zentrum Porsche in Nottingham did the pre purchase inspection on it and look after it for us. His words were Christ that’s quick. I love it Is it too fast for uk roads, possibly but pretty much anything with more than 200bhp is more than you need for public road driving.

Nice. Must have over 500bhp? MB140 said: Is it too fast for uk roads, possibly but pretty much anything with more than 200bhp is more than you need for public road driving. Yes, maybe. I popped out late last night so took the TT 180 because it's quieter. 180bhp FWD was enough for me to enjoy a drive to Tesco! Empty roads, D/Cs, etc. Sure, the 911 is more fun, more of an event. (Well, I wouldn't call the TT an event although sitting low down in a Golf-sized vehicle is fun.)

MB140 said: ... Is it too fast for uk roads, possibly but pretty much anything with more than 200bhp is more than you need for public road driving. ... I think people who say something is too fast for public roads miss the point which is, on those occasions that the opportunity does present it's self, you can let rip. They say it's frustrating to drive something so capable when you can't use it most of the time. In fact I think it's far more frustrating to drive something that is incapable when you can.

Exactly.

996 turbo is plenty quick for uk roads imo, especially twisty ones! the joke is that you wouldn't even be able to sell it new because the performance is that far behind the 992 turbo s / ferrari 296 / mclaren 720, things have gotten absolutely nuts!

pheonix478 said: I think people who say something is too fast for public roads miss the point which is, on those occasions that the opportunity does present it's self, you can let rip. They say it's frustrating to drive something so capable when you can't use it most of the time. In fact I think it's far more frustrating to drive something that is incapable when you can. That’s a good way of putting it.

UK roads = wet, uneven, cambered, not straight, not flat & often BUSY ... So if you are on a road that has 3 of the above, then yes, trying to push a sporty car to put down 400+ HP/Lbs-ft torque in 3rd gear speeds or above will be too much. In Germany or USA, or if you like to only drive on motorways at 2 AM in the morning, then most cars at this power level with AWD will likely feel tame.

TwinExit said: UK roads = wet, uneven, cambered, not straight, not flat & often BUSY ... So if you are on a road that has 3 of the above, then yes, trying to push a sporty car to put down 400+ HP/Lbs-ft torque in 3rd gear speeds or above will be too much. OK Grandpa.

Caddyshack said: The 996tt is very controllable over the limit and in most cases you can keep your foot in and steer where you want to go and the car will come with you. I found a GT3 to be much harder to drive over the limit and a lot more twitchy. On mountain corners you should not get massively out of shape and it may not really need much steering correcting, it will probably just get some drive and continue unless pushing the laws of physics. Exactly my experience moving from a 996T (x50) to a 997 GT3, the turbo is a lot easier to drive on its limit. I still have vivid memories of driving on wet country roads, it's just a wonderfully balanced car as a B road blaster in my opinion. In some ways still very much miss it. The GT3 is running Ohlins so it's even more track biased, but it's far far busier/more fidgety on poor road conditions. Edited by shantybeater on Saturday 16th December 10:55

I had a 996 turbo back in the day, and whilst it was extremely fast, I never felt like it was too much for the road. Absolutely great car. It’s small too so that helps.

MB140 said: Well the wife and I bought a 996 turbo a few months back, previous owner had paid for the updated k24 turbos, essentially the x50 pack, boosts to 1.2 bar, Zentrum Porsche in Nottingham did the pre purchase inspection on it and look after it for us. His words were Christ that’s quick. I love it Is it too fast for uk roads, possibly but pretty much anything with more than 200bhp is more than you need for public road driving. Looks great! Factory fit Aero Kit?

Percy. said: MB140 said: Well the wife and I bought a 996 turbo a few months back, previous owner had paid for the updated k24 turbos, essentially the x50 pack, boosts to 1.2 bar, Zentrum Porsche in Nottingham did the pre purchase inspection on it and look after it for us. His words were Christ that’s quick. I love it Is it too fast for uk roads, possibly but pretty much anything with more than 200bhp is more than you need for public road driving. Looks great! Factory fit Aero Kit? Yep. It really is one of the prettiest cars. But then I always liked the 996, dads friend had one and was the first proper fast car I ever had a ride in. The previous owner really did take care of it. In 2016 it had essential the x50 turbos, intercoolers, ecu etc plus a suspension refresh fitted to it. Cost on the invoice is £16k Wife just spent £8k at Cambridge Car Audio, having a full system install, sound deadening the lot installed. It does sound fantastic. Only problem is I think there is a parasitic drain since the install. Either the car isn’t going in to sleep mode or something is wrong with the install. But if left for 5 days the alarm has gone in to sleep mode so I think the car is shutting down. It refused to start after we got it back from Cambridge. Alternator is good 14.4v, but the battery tested as fubar so it’s had a new Bosch battery and I installed some CTEK easy connect leads when changing the battery and it now sits on a ctek charger. I think the new amp in the trunk is staying permanently live. But at least it now has full Android Auto / CarPlay. Unfortunately the AV system had to be replaced as this is one area someone had skimped / bastardised the system. It wasn’t original Porsche AV when we bought it, it was some cheap crappy Chinese branded cack and the installer who did that made a right mess so it took Cambridge 3 weeks to sort it all out. Edited by MB140 on Saturday 16th December 16:39

Think the 996 Turbo benefits from the Aero Kit, removal of rear powered spoiler and just generally looks more balanced with the Aero wing in my opinion.

MB140 said: But if left for 5 days the alarm has gone in to sleep mode so I think the car is shutting down. I was told that this is standard for 5 days. You then have to use the key (turn it, hold, press the alarm button). This doesn't mean that you don't have a parasitic drain, anyway!

Hoofy said: MB140 said: But if left for 5 days the alarm has gone in to sleep mode so I think the car is shutting down. I was told that this is standard for 5 days. You then have to use the key (turn it, hold, press the alarm button). This doesn't mean that you don't have a parasitic drain, anyway! Standard procedure. My 996.1 did it, my 986.2S does it. Just put the key in , then turn to left and press unlock and hey presto.

MB140 said: Wife just spent £8k at Cambridge Car Audio, having a full system install, sound deadening the lot installed. It does sound fantastic. Only problem is I think there is a parasitic drain since the install. Either the car isn’t going in to sleep mode or something is wrong with the install. But if left for 5 days the alarm has gone in to sleep mode so I think the car is shutting down. It refused to start after we got it back from Cambridge. Alternator is good 14.4v, but the battery tested as fubar so it’s had a new Bosch battery and I installed some CTEK easy connect leads when changing the battery and it now sits on a ctek charger. I think the new amp in the trunk is staying permanently live. But at least it now has full Android Auto / CarPlay. Edited by MB140 on Saturday 16th December 16:39 All above are correct about the alarm going into sleep mode however it should always start once you've unlocked on the key and pressed the blipper. I'd be really interested to know what the spec is of the Cambridge install if you'd be willing to share? Have done all mine myself but really struggling on a solution for the sub woofer...

Robbidoo said: All above are correct about the alarm going into sleep mode however it should always start once you've unlocked on the key and pressed the blipper. I'd be really interested to know what the spec is of the Cambridge install if you'd be willing to share? Have done all mine myself but really struggling on a solution for the sub woofer... im not sure on the spec excatly, the package involved: Lots and lots of sound deadening panels everywhere, 10 new speakers 2 amplifiers 1 just for the sub woofer, 1 for the rest of them. kenwood head unit with apple car play, built in nav, DAB. Rear camera. I do aircraft avionics by trade so i could have done the work myself but it had had a really cheap and nasty install done by someone prior, I was talking to the tech who did all the work and he was saying it was a right pig of a job, one of the worst he had come across because of the prior install, there was wires going everywhere, nothing terminated, just wires cut and twisted together. The stock amp (bose???) was goosed. This package (5) with some additional stuff on top, upgraded headhunt and additional amp and camera hook-up. https://www.cambridgecar.audio/porsche-911-996-aud... Not going to lie, they are expensive but the sound is fantastic. They spent a good couple of hours going over all the settings and setting up custom sound tuning to the wife preference.

Smollet said: Standard procedure. My 996.1 did it, my 986.2S does it. Just put the key in , then turn to left and press unlock and hey presto. Thanks for the info guys, that’s where I’m going wrong then I’m using the wrong procedure.

MB140 said: Smollet said: Standard procedure. My 996.1 did it, my 986.2S does it. Just put the key in , then turn to left and press unlock and hey presto. Thanks for the info guys, that’s where I’m going wrong then I’m using the wrong procedure. I used to think that you had to hold it in one direction and then press the button (that does work but is a bit awkward because the buttons may not be facing the best way for your thumb!). Nowadays, I just turn left and then right (just so I hear the lock mechanism work) then press the unlock button on the key. I suppose you could just press the button every 4 days to unlock and relock the car.