"991.2 is still too big" - R&T

For those who missed it, here's a good balanced review of the 991.2 Ten Things You Learn Driving The New Turbo Porsche 911 Carrera #8 reflects exactly how I felt when test driving the excellent 991.1 GTS vs. the much more intimate/sports-car-feel Cayman GTS (actually drove a Cayman S). That clinched the deal for me.

I mean, isn't the Audi TT too small?

interesting article - thank you for sharing.

What does Audi TT have to do with it? I did not see any reference to the TT in that article.

I drove my 997.2 to the dealer a while back, and hopped into a 991 C4S for a spin. Like the R&T scribe, my sense was that while the 991 was a kick-a$$ ride, the intimacy and connection to the car was diminished. Fast-forward to the 991.2s, and add turbos to the equation and the 911 becomes even less of an engaging experience.

If the premise is that a 911 is "too big" it helps to have an example of something smaller with that shape, like a TT. That's clearly not desirable at all. The OP could have gotten an S if he didn't want the GTS wide body.

This is ridiculous. To get an engaging experience you have to go backwards, like to the 996? Please. I drove one last year and it was awful, like Ford Mustang awful. The 991.2 with rear steering is possibly the best car on the market in 2016. And you can easily order one without tracing your lineage to Ferdinand Porsche or any such GT car nonsense. And it will probably be as fast a 991 GT3 around any track we have access to.

Good read!!

There is an interesting remark in there, that the 991 got a longer wheelbase and more width in preparation for a hybrid model that never made it. Makes sense if Porsche had time to look at how BMW is doing with their 5-series hybrids. Pure electric or nothing seems to be the rule now in the segment of cars better than appliances. Having driven a wide variety of cars in the last 2 years I am certainly in agreement that car interior size is a bit like clothes. I just don't like too loose clothes.

Not at all. The TT is still bigger than a 1973 911. I was excited to see the smaller platform coupe design that Porsche has apparently shelved. A TT-sized Porsche with a manual transmission, hydraulic steering and a 2.7 flat 6 would have been awesome, but that's obviously never happening.

I agree. Size/feel was one of the big reasons I decided against trading for a 991.1 earlier this year. When just sitting in it it does feel more cavernous and more GT like from the inside (even if the driving experience is more sports car than GT), particularly compared to a 981.

I commented about the TT because I just sold my 2008 Audi TT 3.2 Quattro an 1992 911 C2 coupe to buy my 2014 Cayman S. The main reason was because the 964 prices were getting ridiculous and I was able to sell it for a big profit. Basically a straight trade 964 + TT = CS. So I am quite familiar with the smaller 911s and the TT. Size wise, the TT was slightly larger than the 964, but both are pretty petite by today's standards. I have not driven 991, but I have seen plenty, and when I first saw it on release that was my first impression..."this thing is HUGE". I think the 981 is pretty big also, a lot bigger than either the 964 or TT. I would love it if Porsche would make a down sized 911 or even if they downsized the Cayman with a turbo 4. A 2500 lb Cayman with 275 or 300 HP turbo 4 ( and a MT) would do it for me.

The Internet seems to have a singular focus on weight to the point of insanity. Most of you admit you won't put your Porsche on a racetrack, which makes it extra insane. Yes, 30 year old cars are lighter but they're about as stiff as an Amazon Prime cardboard box. To the point where the roll cage is the only thing that stiffens the car, and it needs a lot of superfluous bracing to not shear itself apart when hitting apexes (see BMW e46, e36, e30). The top 3 supercars in the world are 3600 pounds each (P1, La Ferrari, 918). There's really nothing holding them back on track. It's fine. If you're a street car guy, weight helps the car absorb the amplitude of bumps in the road. It makes the car not exhausting to ride in. In the OP's case, the 991.2 isn't even heavier than any recent models from the last 15 years. It's just found a stiff shape with the mass pancaked out so the center of gravity is low and tight. Somehow the journalist thinks this is a bad thing because different is bad and old is good, said every luddite ever.

If you haven't driven a 914, I wouldn't trust your opinion on weight not mattering.

For me, it's not the weight, per say, it is the size/layout of the car that provides the intimate sports car experience as well as ease of handling. I agree that less weight is not always better. Part of my interest in the 981 GTS is not just the size and handling but that it is solid enough for everyday driving. Everyone has their own sweet spot, it is great there are choices. For me, the Cayman GTS was that perfect (or near perfect) balance of intimate sports car road experience and everyday usefulness.

Too big for what? America? James Bond chase scenes through ancient european walking villages? Parking spots in safety town?

I'm looking for a ride like a jet ski, not a speed boat. There are different ways to go fast, but even slightly bigger cars take the fun out of the experience for me

I'm conflicted here. I'd love a late 80s 911 just because I love the look. I guess it's cool that it's a small car but that's not why I'd prefer it over a modern 911. If anything, at 1.9m and wide enough shoulders that the left shoulder yells over to the right shoulder asking how the weather is on its side, I appreciate bigger sports cars. I love the shape of the 987 but I'm thankful for the 981(still a snug fit). I don't think the new 911 is that big and if anything, I'm glad there's going to be an option down the line where I can slide into a 911 and not suffer. Seriously, the whole lighter is faster and PDK is more efficient don't do anything to me. That's not what's stopping me from pulling fastest laps on the track. Although I do appreciate tossing around a light chassis. Now for the source of conflict. I love the classic Mini. I love it because it's small and I can still fit inside. I love the R53 and the R56 because they are still small enough and I can fit inside. I however hate the bloated new F56 and I don't care if it's lighter. Ergo, my conflict. I hate the new MINI because it looks like **** (from being too fat) and I love the 911 as I can get in comfortably. I guess for me, the 911 has to grow to the size of a Macan or a Panamera to start hating it. And that's all Porsche cares about. Whether there are enough buyers who think the new 911 is "small" enough. Same reason they will sell 4 banger 981.2s while a bunch of us whine about how better things were in 2015 with the NA engines. Ahem. TL;DR: Porsche doesn't give a **** what a few think as long as they sell cars. This horse demands a bleeping funeral.

Being light is one way to go fast. It's not the only way. Again, my Audi hasn't met an Elise on track it can't keep up with and pass - the pace in this photo was 1:46 so not slow, we did lead/follow for a whole afternoon. Typically lighter is cheaper on consumables like brakes and tires. It's not like an Elise is some bargain basement sports car you can get for Miata prices, so it's just as expensive as taking the Audi out. I don't like the Elise because I think the motors are uninspiring, and I've seen them burn to the ground on track when the exhaust touched the fiberglass. MINOR DESIGN FLAW.

Every generation of track rats running street cars on road courses gets caught up in "my car is faster than yours" and "I'm a better driver than you." For those of us who have been licenced since before '73 and have spent decades doing thousands of laps on all manner of tracks with all kinds of different cars and drivers, it's all a bit predictable. Want to really go fast? Get a purpose-built race car, or better still an open wheel car. Want to have the most fun you can per dollar, and determine where you actually fall on the driving skill spectrum? Get into a spec racing series, where the playing field is mostly levelled and no amount of money and cojones will get you into the top 5 spots on the grid. About a decade into the process, I came to terms with the fact that I'm at best a talented amateur driver, and that the real enjoyment is getting the best out of myself and whatever car I happened to be in. And there was the creeping realization that some cars are just a blast to drive, regardless of how fast they are relative to other vehicles. The most memorable laps in street cars lodged in my memory are in an E36 M3, my giant-killer Integra Type R, and both my S2000s. My race-only Honda Civic - with FWD and less than 200 hp at the crank - would regulary lay down faster times on lapping days than the assorted Corvettes, Ferraris and other rides costing many multiples of what I had into my Honda. Would a 991.1 or a 991.2 be one of the quicker cars any track day in the hands of even an inexperienced, ham-fisted driver? Probably. In the hands of a pro or super experienced amateur it would be jaw-dropping quick. Which might be a reason to give it a wide berth on a track day. For some of the older dudes in my automotive circle - some of whom have been track junkies for going on 50 years - jousting with the drivers with full loads of testosterone and andrenalin in their systems and the latest, greatest iron under them is a non-starter. Too dangerous. Not actually fun, and potentially a quick way to ruin a nice day at the track. We would wave the hotshots by in the screaming fast new iron while savoring yet another lap in our slower E39 M5s, Super 7s, '80s/90s/00s Porsches, et al. Getting back to the original observation of the R&T writer, more compact 911s - even something as recent as the 997s - have a decidedly different character than the 991s. Yes, the 991 is faster, more sophisticated and easier to drive quickly than its predecessors...and to some, that's all that matters. For others, the feel of the back end coming around in a 993, or learning to keep the momentum up in a base 986, or doing the wrenching on an out-of-warranty 987 or 997 is more squarely in the fun zone than piloting a larger, über-capable new 991 that's become just a little too big, and a little too refined to be as thrilling a driving experience as the 911s that came before.

I love this point. It's important to trust the other 30 people you're sharing the track with. One way is to find an advanced/instructor group where you all do the same 4 events every year, so you at least recognize the other drivers. Another way to increase predictability is to go with a club of (mostly) the same marque, since the cars will have similar lines and similar response/degradation as a session elapses (plus the ability to teach each other how to prepare the car for a session). The safest HDPE events are where everyone has 2 people in the car, because the other person can correct your mistakes, tell you to dial it back if you're amplifying an error, etc. The riskiest ones are the for-profit single day track events where people show up with big iron and you'll see 4 cars wreck before lunch. The type of people who "don't need an instructor" and "just want to have some fun" off of public roads.

I guess I'm just a small car guy. I will probably never do much if any track driving, but I have always enjoyed sports cars for the street. I guess I have owned most of the cars mentioned in this thread (2 early 911s, 2 914s, a 2004 Mini, Audi TT, Mazda Miata) as well as various others (944, 986 Boxster, Triumph TR7, MGB, VW GTI mk I, Fiat spider, probably others). I test drove a Vette a while back and when the salesman asked what I thought, I told him it was just too big ( I was driving the Boxster at the time). I think it is safe to say my favorite is the 2014 CS in my garage now.

" Getting back to the original observation of the R&T writer, more compact 911s - even something as recent as the 997s - have a decidedly different character than the 991s. Yes, the 991 is faster, more sophisticated and easier to drive quickly than its predecessors...and to some, that's all that matters. For others, the feel of the back end coming around in a 993, or learning to keep the momentum up in a base 986, or doing the wrenching on an out-of-warranty 987 or 997 is more squarely in the fun zone than piloting a larger, über-capable new 991 that's become just a little too big, and a little too refined to be as thrilling a driving experience as the 911s that came before." I can assure you that learning to drift a 991, do slaloms and donuts and stuff is entirely exhilerating. The main thing is the width of the rubber which needs lots of energy to break its grip. Need to take a big brave pill at first but once you get the hang of it it's great, like any decent sports car I'd guess. And you don't needs crazy speed to do any of this. Maxing out on the autobahn is in fact a bit dull, just like launch control after the first few times.