BARRED

Having applied, too enter the national concourse at Porsche & Polo at Kirltington event - Sunday 15th August; I have received a letter today from Harriet Shannon (Concourse co-ordinator), too say that my car (Porsche 996 40th Anniversary 911, 2004), is not eligible due to the fact that it has done 'insufficent miles' (7950 miles). What a joke! Does the club want our cars to be at this event or not! [ ]

Of course your car is wanted at the event. Unfortunately your Porsche did not meet the criteria laid down in the national concours Rules and Regulations. Secondly, your entry form was received after the closing date and was too late. Harriet

If the form was late then i will blame the postoffice and take it on the nose,however the mileage rule wants looking at as i have seen battered cars with 10000 miles on the clock and imaculate cars with ten times that figure,if the weathers good i will be there anyway.

I don't do Concours events anymore! I had a 944 Turbo and thought I'd enter R19's concours, when I got there, there was only two of us with front engine Porsches so we got lumped into the 'water cooled class'. 1st place was the Yellow GT2 that wins all evens. 2nd place was a three month old 997 3rd place was a 996 that was purchased from Porsche main dealer that week. We had no chance, both of us with over 100k on the clock and our daily drives. had a great day out though and gives you a chance to give your car a good clean. Good Luck!!!

Not the same for all regions - see the winner here![ ] http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=554302

I personally think there should be a "car has to be at least 10 years old" rule on concours entries rather than a mileage criteria. Just my opinion. Ian.

Why? My 2002 C4S has done 57k miles, 25k of which in one year. Hardly a pampered garage bunny, but one that has now been retired from commuting duties and I wouldn't mind getting it spruced up for showing. At the end of the day, concours is a competition based on prepping and condition. I remember being beaten a few years ago by a 10 year old, but 4000 mile 3.2. speedster which had clearly never seen mud in its life!

Because in my opinion it takes 10 years for stuff like rubber etc to degrade. Someone with a 2 year old car will always have an advantageous starting point from someone with an older car. There is so much that wears out on a car that is not mileage related but age and sunshine related. But then it gets contentious when you start talking about restorations .... I think this is only a problem with the 'street concours' concept where I do believe newer cars or museum type cars have an advantage. Full concours is so in depth that in essence the playing field has been levelled by the hours and detail required to win. It's always put me off entering street concours competitions when I am up against a 2 year old car but you are right a 4000 mile 3.2 speedster that's never been outside is hardly fair in a street concours either. Ian.

I agree just because your car has low mileage I don't think you should be excluded. We run our Regional concours on the following lines Pre 1980 class 1980's Class 1990's Class 2000 on Class Visitors class (all visitors lumped in together regardless of year) Members and families then vote for the car which they like the best by class placing them 1st 2nd or 3rd regardless of water or air cooled.

Concours> Not for me... and for all the comments and reasons lsited above... I rather use my cars...

In the National Concours Rules and Regulations, there are both age and mileage bonus points!! Harriet

I still dont understand. In view of Harriet's comment above (and had your entry been on time) why you car could not enter the concours[&:]

Just looking at the Pride of Ownership Concours regs for Castle Combe on the 30th, point 2.5 says: To enter this competition: (a) vehicles registered prior to 2000 must have covered a minimum of 30,000 miles OR (b) vehicles registered in 2000 or later must have covered a minimum of 3,000 miles a year so assuming the regs are the same, there's the answer.

You need to get out more Mike! [ ]

Thanks Peter, and there is a bit more which is in the National Concours Rules and Regulations that may answer some queries, please see below: 4.1.5. Applies to Premier Class and Pride of Ownership Class only. To enter this competition: (a)Vehicles registered prior to 2000 must have covered a minimum of 30,000 recorded miles. OR (b)Vehicles registered in 2000 or later must have covered a minimum of 3,000 miles a year. Vehicles under one year old and with less than 3,000 recorded miles will not be eligible to enter the competition. Mike Verran's Porsche is a 2004 996 (6 years old) and had according to his application form for concours "Mileage to date 7,900". Harriet

I like a clean car myself as many of you that know me and my Porsches know. But I think serious Concours can cause lots of problems and bitter feeling amongst members having seen it time and time again. Personally I can't be bothered polishing nuts and bolts or even replacing parts. Eventhough I am a Valeter&Detailer. I think the fun show and shine days are great .Not taken too serious at all. And for those of us that use our cars for events and WOTYS home and abroad we don't get too stressed about Concours. Moral is clean but don't become too obsessed with cleaning that you fear using your Porsche. Just enjoy. [ ] Cliff.

Couldn't agree more Cliff and provides an excellent opportunity for a gratuitous plug for the R3 Show and Shine at Raby Castle on the 19th Sptember. http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=567106 all shapes, sizes, colours, ages and mileages welcome[ ]

I totally agree. These cars were meant to be driven and enjoyed! I like a clean car too, but Im sure if I went down this route I'd be afraid to use it

The club is a pretty Broad Church and as such I would have thought that a sliding scale of reduction in points could be operated in order that all owners could enter should they wish - For instance:- A member could work abroad and only use his car when he returns to the UK thus the car would have low mileage. ie If the bar was set a 3.000 pa and a car was ten years old for every 1k miles under the 30K a point could be de deducted. To make things fair A car in the same class that had done 65K would have done 35K over the 30K bar and as such would have added 35 points to it total score. So come on you guys get drving - less polishing and you can still come up with the same points total.[ ] P.S. Our Regional Concours (R24) A three day old drop dead gorgeous GT3RS blue with silver scripts entered our concours and was not even in the top three[ ]

John As I have already pointed out in the National Concours R& R there are age and mileage bonus points!!! Harriet

Hi Harriet I agree with John here. We should have enough flexibility within the rules to include everyone. Exclusion should not be an issue in a club like ours. We are here to provide an enjoyable experience for everyone. The OP, Mike, is right to be rather pi**ed off. I would l feel the same. Just imagine if we had a 356 entered that was say 50 yrs old that had done the required 30.000 in its life. That would equate to 600 miles per year and would still be eligible. It's nonsense. Just as the wheels up nut and bolt restoration of a 20 year old car that's done 200.000 miles and entered the concours on a trailer having done zero miles! It makes no sense. We should try and encourage all comers to concours, even if this means a constant 'evolution' of the rules. Very Porsche like ! After all, the number of concours entrants has declined over the 20 years I have been in the club and it would be a sad day if we were denied the wonderful spectacle of these fabulous cars and their owners at our national and regional events. They add the glamour and even encouragement for us all to aspire to something we may even consider ourselves. Mine is no longer the garage queen it used to be, I use it every day and love it. Concours condition it isn't, but it still looks like new (to me) and I clean it every week without fail.

Hi Harriet Many thanks for your phone call earlier this evening. I really do appreciate the effort and time that you have gone to explain to me directly the details of this particular situation, the concours rules and organisation. So much so that I feel that my posted reply on this thread earlier today was unwarranted and could have been hurtful to all those who give their time to national concours organisation, I have therefore had no hesitation in deleting it. It was the last thing on my mind that I should cause any offence and it clearly did. Please accept my apologies. I guess like everyone else we sometime have a blinkered view of things and not always see someone else point of view. Quite clearly we are not going to be able to please everyone all of the times, but it is heartening to hear you tell me that the rules do in fact evolve after every concours and that the concours committee actually encourage feedback and are not too proud to alter the rules when it is required. Well done and please keep up the great work you do for the club!

Thank you Peter. That is indeed very generous of you. Should anyone else need clarification on any aspect of concours, please do not hesitate to get in touch with me. Harriet

Hi guys have decided to take richards advice and get out more,so have parked up my S8 D3 and am continuing with the running in process on my 996 (now 8350 miles)

From the perspective of an ordinary member, I think that there are certain insurmountable difficulties in achieving "fairness" with concours competitions that frequently result in upset. The first issue is that judging is carried out by human beings whose subjective opinions determine the winners and losers. They are inevitabley inconsistent, perhaps most notably when owners retain their score sheets from previous years. It has become almost a standing joke that David Baker's 993 always seems to do worse and worse each year at our R18 competition despite despite being presented in increasingly pristine order! The second issue is that no matrix can ever fairly even out the age/mileage balance of the vehicles to create a level playing field- unlike golfers, concours entrants can't be given a handicap rating! I remember a couple of years ago at R18 concours, my 996 was parked next to Peter Bull's. At the time, my car although a year younger had done more than 5 times the mileage that Peter's had. Whatever I did to present my car, Peter's was always going to be better. If the 2 vehicles were presented to the same standard, there would be no fair outcome to determine the winner - should the worst car win because it has done an extra 40000 miles or the better car win, erm, because it is better!! The most extreme example of this was, just for fun, I chose this year's concours date to collect my new Spyder. I literally drove it out of the showroom at Bolton and into the line up, the car having never been driven on a public road and had 9 delivery miles on the clock! I wouldn't let the Judges mark it out of respect to members who had spent their hard earned time preparing their pride and joys for the competition but if I had wanted to be an arse, the car would have been impossible to beat. I have a lot of respect for those who prepare their cars to high standards and also for those who give up their time to organise the competitions but I genuinely don't know how events can be organised that fairly cater for all?

Yours must have been better prepared than my last three new ones then Rob. [ ]

Gosh,Rob,what an intelligent letter & there again ,Ive always thought you could be a bit of an A**e if you really tried-I suppose it's just the legal mind shining through.Peter's 1st post was quite a good sensible one too & we aren't able to assess why there was such a creeping retraction. It does seem(just like the Directors expenses matter) that sensibly expressed opinions tend to be slapped down by the Glitterati as though it underminds their voluntary effort-we ought to be bigger than that.However ,who am I to comment-I don't have the time to try concours with our 24 yr old 924S which is still in v good condition. All said in good faith.[ ]

tscaptain - very good! It did get a bit of a wipe with a microfibre cloth to remove some excess polish before I took the keys! In fairness to Bolton OPC though, the car was extremely well presented.

But not as well presented as the winner's car (Mark) nor the runner up's car (Jamie). (Region 18 Concours Organiser)

saucer of milk for Mr Hindle? You do know that OPC Bolton prepped Jamie's car too don't you? [ ]

No milk for me thanks Rob. Just ask either of the two judges. Jamie's car was probably prepped by them when he bought it but I bet you anything Jamie cleaned and polished it a couple of times in the meantime. Anyhow the five points off for no club badge would have put you lower on points! [ ]

I did. Fred, even taking into account your dark sense of humour, I am not sure if you are joking, serious or deliberately trying to wind me up. If the latter, you have succeeded. If serious, your observations neatly summarise everything that is wrong with concours as set out by other posters above. If you were joking, I am afraid that it's lost on me.

Slightlly off topic how do you get to the venue from the centre of oxford? thanks

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=&daddr=Unknown+road&geocode=FWqmFwMd_9Ps_w&hl=en-GB&mra=mr&sll=51.883591,-1.244202&sspn=0.036291,0.111151&ie=UTF8&ll=51.881101,-1.256347&spn=0.018147,0.055575&z=15 A4260 North towards Banbury out of Oxford and turn right on the A4095. The grounds are on the right as you leave the vilage of Kirtlington. Hope that helps... garyw