Is a 996 really that good?

I used to have a 2000 Boxster S, which I found was a fairly good drive but didn't feel too safe when driving around corners at speed. So I decided to swap it for a 2002 C4s, with the belief that a 911 was one best cars to drive and the four wheel drive and psm would be a great benefit.[ ] I have had it for nearly 2 years and I don't think that it is as good as I was expecting it to be. The powers great it just the road handling![ ] Since owning it and especially within the last few months with the bad weather I have noticed that at motorway speeds it doesn't feel like it is sticking to the road and if the wind is blowing I say a few prayers! When driving around roundabouts and corners (at low speeds) the back end has twitched and the front seems to loose grip. If I was driving any faster I am sure that it would have just spun. I also drive a Vectra Sri which I have had for nearly 8 years and I can honestly say that at the same speeds and weather conditions I have always felt safe it the car more then the C4s. I have had M3's, Cosworths etc but non of them made me feel unsafe. The car has continentals, fpsh, has been laser tracked by Hi-q and an indi, has had the suspension and steering checked and no faults ever found. I just want to know if anyone else has had the same thoughts as me and could there be anything wrong with my car? I was thinking of taking it to Centre Gravity to see if they can try to sort it out but I just can't see it making that much difference. I have always wanted a Porsche since I was a boy but now I just feel let down with my experiences. I may just sell it and buy another M3.[ ]

i`d get a cayman s if i was you[ ] just been to sussex and back via some great country roads and never put a foot wrong at some quite exciting (tho obviously legal!)speeds-never felt quite as safe when in the 996 c4

Try changing to Michelins or Pirelli (or Bridgestone) Did your Boxster have the "flaps" in front of the front wheels intact (and not worn) these make a heck of a difference to the Boxster feel. Normally Continentals get good reports on 996's but bad on Boxsters. I wonder if the 4WD of the 996 (and more forward weight distribution) brings the characteristics more towards the Boxster, and therefore back to bad feeling Contis...?

I think that if I was in the same situation I would take it to Chris Franklin at CG and ask him to drive it first - before making any adjustments. I have no experience of CG, but from what I have read by others he seems to have some benchmark tests he uses on the road test after adjustment. If the alignment is a long way out - particularly if front and/or rear are toe-ing out - it can give weird handling characteristics. But if you have had two alignments done, I guess it's unlikely. Having said that, I would be wary of any Hi-Q alignment, and I saw a 993 that my friend Tony was working on a couple of weeks ago that had had a full alignment by another indy, and it was miles out. These laser alignment machines are only as good as the people operating them, and you need someone who is good.

I can't remember if the Boxster flaps were intact, but I'm sure if they weren't the opc would have told me as they did notice every other minor problem when it went in for a service! I haven't got nothing to loose so I will be taking it to Centre Gravity, as they seem to have had great reviews from other owners. Would it be fair to say that the majority of 996's owners haven't had the problems that I have experienced? Does everyone believe that there car is one of the best out there to drive? I'm hoping that I have some simple problem that needs sorting, as after all these years of believing that a Porsche 911 was one of the best cars to drive in the world, I would be pretty much gutted if I found my old Vectra drives better!

Your car should handle brilliantly in the wet and dry and also should suffer less than the regular 2WD Carrera from the 'floaty' front end feel. I took my 996 C4 on the track and I couldn't believe the speeds I was doing round bends, and even when the back end began to step out PSM put it all under control. You car will have better brakes and lower suspension than my C4, so I cannot imagine that you should be able to lose control of it off the track. I'd go with the others and take it to CG, I've only ever heard fantastic things about his service.

You sound like you have done some work to ensure the car is straight (albeit Richards point is valid), so maybe it's just tyre manufacturer, tyre condition or tyre pressure. Tyres make a heck of a difference. But maybe it's just a different driving experience. I have a C4 and although spot on for handling, it doesn't feel the same as other cars I have driven. It's a Porsche - maybe it's the engine in the back, I don't know "" I have had the light feeling at the front whilst making progress on a bumpy road and although it never puts a foot wrong, I am not as confident in it as I have been in other cars. Maybe that's a function of the price though! The other thing to do is to get someone else to drive it and make a comparison. Lastly, try it on track with an instructor. WeeJohnyB

I would argue the case for getting your wheel alignment checked. I found that when I took my car for new tyres once and the garage suggested that I should have the checks done, there is a huge differnce in settings. They changed the settings and upon driving the car out of the garage I knew within 500 yards that they had mucked up the car (I know that you had to allow for the fact that all of the tyres were now new) but the car drove as it were driving on sheet ice. I argued and they showed me all the printouts to say that they had changed it correctly. I rang Porsche who confirmed that the garage readings were within the tolerances that they have for my car (like yours - a 996 C4S). I still wasnt happy and had them change all of the settings back to how it was before (they put it to as close as they could without being in the 'red') and the car handled pretty much as it did before. In conclusion, with only minor changes to the settings this can make a huge differnce to how the car drives. Having driven a few 996's and 997's, both two and four wheel drive, I would say that you should check your settings (I can fax a copy of mine to you if you like) you will find that if set up correctly, nothing should compare with the all weather ability of your C4S (I know the Cayman is great, but when it rains or you have standing water, I am sure that it would take a 'great driver' to keep up with a not so great driver' that was driving a C4S).

What about the way or where you are using the barkes and throttle. Incorrect use of these basics can unsetlle a car by changing weight distribution at the worng times ? Why don't you try a track day or two and some track tuition so you really understand how the car is working under different load conditions Just a thought not an opinion Steve

Naturally four wheel drive handling will not be as precise as rear wheel drive (I have had both) but nonetheless either your car is duff or you are.

either your car is duff or you are. [ ]lol harsh,but true!!!!

I think most people have hit on the head with the advice given here. Tyres are a biggy and you'd be surprised how much difference they make. I know people who have had their cars to CG and said afterwards that vehicle was 'transformed' so that has to worth a go. Finally, the 911's do have that 'floaty' front end feeling and its either something that you get to grips with or not.......you may have to resign yourself to the fact its just not for you...good luck anyway

I was hoping that the car was duff and not me but garages have said that they can't find anything wrong so it must be me![ ] I haven't changing my driving style since driving Porsches so I am just comparing the drive with other cars I had. I know about the front feeling floaty which a believe people do say gets better the higher the speed you go, but I haven't really tested that theory out. Is this true? Are you guys saying that, with your cars properly set up, you feel 100% safe when driving at around 70-80mph? Maybe I will try a track day with someone who's used to driving Porsches and see how they feel. Tyres may be a problem but I just can't believe that Conti 295/30/18 tyres on a C4s can't grip better than 175/70/15 on a Corsa van at the same low speeds! Soon as I get some spare time I will be taking the car to CG and may change the tyres next time there due because I want to make sure I've done all I can be admitting defeat that a Porsche is not for me.[ ]

[ ] agreed. I think when you're comparing the cornering abilities of a C4S to a Vectra you need to ask why you bought a Porsche in the first place. [ ]

I bought the C4s because I thought It was one of the best handling cars in the world and expect it to corner faster and safer then a Vectra[8|], I normally buy a more expensive car to get a better ride. Why did you buy one?

I couldn't either. They may suit some people but not you and I ?

yep...100% confident...and at well over 70/80 too[ ](on private roads of course!) . Thats both in a C2 and a 996 TT . One on Michelin cup sports and one on pirelli P-Zero. Prefer michelin think its marmite time mate...[ ]

Didn't mean my first comment to sound quite so harsh [ ] I just don't understand what you mean by saying the car feels unsafe when cornering. You also said that you didn't feel safe cornering in your Boxster didn't you? I suppose what I was saying is maybe Porsches aren't the right cars for your driving style.

Checked your tyre pressures?

The car should corner like it's on rails, with PSM and 4 wheel drive you absolutely should not be anywhere near the limits of your car's handling abilities on the open road, unless you're flooring it around roundabouts. At 70/80mph the car should be cruising very comfortably no problems whatsoever...I've been up to double those speeds on Autobahns and still, solid as a rock! Something is definately not right with the car.

Tirfor, Have you had a chance to compare with another 996 back-to-back on the same roads or perhaps get another 996 driver to try yours? I'm London based and on occasions, out in Chris Franklin country, so if that's convenient, let me know - happy to help. SNDa

Reading your post, just show's that with mileage things move. please check your tyre pressure. Chris franklin has done Five 911s for me , 2 ,930 turbo's 2 ,993 tt and a 996 tt , all I can say is the man is fantastic, the car when finished is as new and better its on rails, Its not cheap, but you smile all the way home.

My brother and I today changed the front and rear drop links on his 911 C2 and it transformed the road manners of his car. The parts were cheap as chips and did not take long to do, could be worth a try on your car.

Well the 911 has a great reputation amongst very good drivers (Tiff Needel for one) so it is clearly a very good and very capable sportscar. I think that different cars do require slight adjustments your driving style. I've had to radically change my driving style since moving from FWD cars to the RWD 944. The way I approach corners is completely different, what I do mid-corner is completely different, the way I handle the throttle is different so on and so forth. I can easily get the rear end out if I wanted to at relatively low speeds with a bit of careless use of the throttle mid corner (no traction control in a 944!).

with your cars properly set up, you feel 100% safe when driving at around 70-80mph yep!! the faster i drove the c4 the better it seemed to hunker down and grip ferociously-esp around bends-my best memory was going up the alps from switz to france at 100-120 feeling like on rails surprised i was flying past everything and feeling very confident!!!and my driving skills are nothing special(trust me!!)

I normally ensure that tyre pressures are kept at the recommend levels that are stated in the owner's manual. The tyres do seem to have worn evenly across the tread. Front drop links were changed on the last service and no report back on the rears condition. So I believe that in theory the car should be driving ok.[8|] Thanks for the offer of test driving it for me, but I'm going to wait and see what CG thinks about the car first. If they can't find any problems then I will take you up on your offer.[ ] I do admit that my driving style isn't the best in a Porsche. I am used to driving front and rear wheel drive cars with the engine in the front but not with the engine way at the back. Although some of my concern with my car is mainly driving straight on a motorway and low speeds at roundabouts in the wet so driving style shouldn't be a issue. I'm glad that some of you guys have said that your cars drive fine, just like on rails, because that is what I expected from Porsche and now I really believe that my car just needs proper set up. Tiff is my idol when it comes to driving cars and I would love to spend a day getting pointers from him. How do you guys drive your cars different compared to front and rear wheel drive cars when approaching bends and roundabouts especially in the wet?

A couple of comments. First motorways and cross winds. The wear on motorways where the lorry tires have worn grooves can cause the 911 to feel a bit nervous. Also cross winds do have that effect as the light front end gets buffeted. You just need to relax and get used to it. Gripping the steering wheel can make it feel worse. Generally you should hold the steering wheel lightly as it does twitch due to the increased feedback you get from 911 steering. I literally hold mine lightly between my fingertips. This includes low and high speed maneuvers. You can see the wheel twitching but if you try and grip it and stop it doing so you'll make the car feel really nervous in your hands. Wet roundabouts. The 911 is not a go-cart and will never go around a wet roundabout like it's on rails. Particularly if you are on the throttle too early. The key on a 911 is to learn how to turn the car in. Once the front end has gripped you can get on the power. However if you are consistently on the power too early you'll think the car steers like sh*t. The best thing you can do IMO is spend a couple of hours on a track day with an instructor who knows how to drive a 911. Not all track day instructors do. You'll either come away with a new love for the car or a decision that you just don't like it. Ian. PS any wear in the suspension can also make a car nervous but I would expect a decent mechanic to be able to pick this up on a test drive.

Had my car done by CG last year and was very pleased with the work. What I found interesting was that all the settings for toe, camber etc have a significant +/- tollerance so a setting can be inside tolerance and still be a way off the ideal number. I asked for a setup to factory settings as I had uneven wear on the rear tyres and CG will look to reach the perfect set up rather than just inside the tolerances. He must be confident as he will slam on the brakes from high speed with hand off the wheel.....interesting !

i had a boxster 2004 plate then a 2006 new shape and now since november finally a c4 cab 996 and i can say i would never want any other car than mine or a newer one !! mind you i have test driven a new 997 and cant find much in it other than newness !!! so im afraid either something aint right with your car or you should be in a vauxhall[ ] im interested to know how many people with any 911 would want to give them up by choice !

Mine felt fine at 160mph on the Autobahn last summer ... although it is a C2, but can't see that making a significant difference.

So does my Boxster (although I usually chicken out at 150 - roof down... [8D])

My C2 with hood down at 165 on the autobahn was steady as a rock and with the wind deflector in place, not too turbulent either!

I remember doing 140mph with my BMW 330Ci, top down on the erm... err... Autobahn... kind of (lol)! It was really soft, a bit like a boat really. Do that again in the 996 C4 and its more like a train pounding away. A really awesome car at high speeds.

I'm glad to hear more good news on how a Porsche should handle on a motorway. Hopefully I will get mine sorted with a few adjustments.[ ] Ian, in other cars I do hold the steering wheel lightly and trust the car to just keep driving straight, but in my C4s I just feel that if I don't hold the steering hard the car feels like the wind wants to blow it straight into another lane. Before anyone thinks that I must be driving to fast when it is windy, I don't and do see lots of other cars driving past me at faster speeds and steadier.[ ] The way I approach bends and roundabout is to brake hard before I have to turn the steering wheel, then apply very gentle, even pressure on the accelerator whilst driving through the bend then accelerate when car is straight. Does this sound ok or should I be adopting a different driving style?

Sounds about right, [ ] I sometimes overbrake prior and find myself on the gas gently going into the bend, seems to lift the car and aid in grip throughout the bend and out. Remember the piece of string on the steering wheel and that is the flow to the loud pedal as you turn off the lock.- unless your showboating [ ] I think this goes for all cars and not just 996/911. Trying to get the front steady is my usual aim, I think we're all aware how they can be a little light and bobby at times. garyw

Just my four penneth worth, the same as other guys are saying. After I bought my 996, I drove it home on the motorway and it was all over the place the same as you describe. Like you, I was surprised and disappointed. Then my Dad suggested the tracking, after some research I went to Chris Franklin at Centre Gravity and he tracked it back to standard Porsche settings and the difference was amazing. It sat perfectly on the road and the feeling of twitchyness had gone completely. I would do what someone else suggested and either get someone like Chris to drive it, or try to drive someone elses for comparison. For the record my car runs on Michelin Pilot Sports which are great, nice grip and quiet.

Hi tirfor, I have a 2003 C4S and my car is fitted with Conti tyres. I have found that my car is sensitive to tread depth, particularly at the front end. A few months ago, my car started to run wide on slow wet bends, sometimes disconcertingly so. The front tyres were still well above the legal limit but I was advised on this forum to change the tyres, which I did, and the front end grip improved significantly. Having said this, as everyone has already said, the 911 is a car with unique handling characteristics. You cannot throw it into a bend in the hope you can sort it out mid-bend if it goes wrong; smooth in and power out unless you're a driving god which most of us aren't. The floaty/twitchy feeling at the front end at speed in cross wind conditions is something you learn not to fight. This may be heresy on this forum but the 911 is not the best handling car on the block. If you want a car to go round corners at lunatic speeds with minimum effort, go buy an Evo. The 911 is a car that satisfies on a different level

How much tread difference are you allowed? I seem to have 5mm on the front just over 2mm on the back. Is the tread problem just on 4wd or on the 2wd as well?

Ill add my bit hear, i think i know where you are comming from, and it stems from "feel" When i first started out on the Porsche path, i have had many cars before, all great cars. Most of the cars have not got the feel of the Porsche, they have numb steering and far less sharp, which keeps you cosetted from the road. Yes the front does Bob and feel light and somtimes makes you wonder, but keeps gripping the faster you go, try it!!! The steering is constantly talking to you, and is not to everyones liking, certanly not to my wife's who states its hard work and does not feel safe and secure!!! Its taken me a bit of time to like the Porsche experience and at the end of the day if you want a car that isolates you from the tarmac, they may not be for you. I do know what you mean, i have other cars that just get you from A to B with no drama, but i like drama!! BMW's, Merc's and Lexus's belt up the motorway with the driver having 1 finger on the wheel to steer, over-asisted and numb i say, but my wife likes that!!! Its really hard to put into words, i have tryed, but i do know what you mean. Yes a geometry set up makes a big difference though I am not sure tyres will, as some are saying, its just the Porsche thingy really.

I agree with Bobafett. I would not say i am the worlds best driver, however i have every bit of confidence in my 996 C4, I use to have a Caterham 7 which handled well, no traction control etc, it was like a Go Kart however the Porsche i feel i can really drive hard and is best round twisty roads, somtimes you think it is not handling well and notice that the speed you are doing is far higher than you thought, normaly you can tell when you have some idoit in a boy racer Saxo, Clio etc trying to race you and you notice how you can enter and exit bends worlds apart from even the keenly driven Chavs. Get it checked out if no better do a track day with instruction, these are great cars handling machines. Phil

Brake straight, balanced throttle on turn in, accelerate as you unwind. Good basic 911 technique. I tend to turn in late using a two stage turn in on balanced throttle. Stage one is gentler steering to get the front to bite then second stage is more aggressive turn in. By the apex I am already unwinding and on the power. However that's been learnt from driving early cars and suits my driving style (and all my cars are 2WD). Not sure if this is still applicable to the later 4WD cars. The best way to learn your own car is to have a session on track. However it sounds more like your car has issues than your driving technique. Ian.

Rodney, does your car feel somewhat twitchey around high speed bends in the damp/wet? It's just that I've come unstuck a few times with my C4 in the damp and now I just don't feel confident around flying bends as there's always the worry that the back end will slip out. I'm still trying to determine whether it's the Continental tyres or not, as the setup feels fine on the car. I can take my hands off of the steering wheel doing 100mph and it will still stay solid. Does anybody else get this feeling in the wet, or can anybody compare Contis to other tyre setups that may be better? Cheers

Hi Paul, Well my previous C4 didn't feel twitchy at all, it was rock solid in the wet, although I didn't push it too much and I was on MPS. As for my current car, in the wet it's very much easier to lose the backend in the wet round any bends, but then again I don't have PSM or 4-wheel drive to help me out, again on MPS.

Was there ever a solution to this Did an alignment sort the problem?

Car is booked in on the 27th so will let you guys know whats happens. Just had a MOT done on the car last week, they found I had bold tyres on the rear[ ]. I only changed them 7k miles ago, I never thought of checking them. The slipping in the wet has got better[ ], but its still twitchy.

yes my 99 C2 will go straight on when trying to go fast round a tight 25 mph bend in the damp and give it full throttle in 2nd at about 50 on a slight curve off a roundabout in the damp will let go of the rear. Its got no PSM. I really have to have my wits about me in the wet when using the performance. In the dry its a different matter, the back is very stable and will not unstick at all, the front is ok but definitely feels better the faster you go.

Well just got back after visiting Chris at CG, and I must say I'm as happy as can be.[ ] The car does drive a lot better than before in all area's that seemed to annoy me. It feels more stable at high speeds and better grip around bends. The service supplied by Chris was second to none. His attention to detail and willingness to treat my car as his own was a pleasure to see. The problem I had was down to bad workmanship by the two garages who had worked on the tracking beforehand. The angles were so far out that Chris's equipment couldn't give any readings until he made some major adjustments then he tweaked them to match my driving style. If anyone has any sort of handling problems I would highly recommend a trip down to CG and have a chat with Chris.

I had an EVO, and I must say, in the wet there is very little to touch it. However, because of the active yaw control and the zero understeer setup, it took a lot to get used to it. When cornering, I would tend to anticipate the tail slide that never came, which then upset the active yaw control, which meant I had to uncorrect what was not happening in the first place. Once I got used to it, it was amazing, 4 wheel drifts at 70 mph. What I am trying to say it, cars can feel 'unsafe, or odd when they are significantly different from the norm. Maybe you need to drive it faster in safer surroundings and build confidence ? On the otherhand, a duff damper can unsettle a car very badly and no amount of alignment checks or tyre swapping (or even jumping up and down on the wings) will reveal it. Ps, try a 3.2 [ ]

Bob you could be talking about the older Bi turbo Maserati's with the **"Meccanica Attiva" steering & suspension ,the C4 feels just like that & that was brilliant! After a spirited drive in the Maserati you neede a rest & the C4 can be the same as it takes all your concentration when pushing on[ ] **MECCANICA ATTIVA: "a sophisticated mechanism which used a system of interacting levers to ensure that, not only did the wheels remain completely square relative to the road surface, but a state of constant parallelism is maintained between the lower suspension arm and the steering arm, no matter what vertical movement of the wheels is experienced, offering enormous advantages in vehicle stability while turning, even on rough road surfaces."

My c4s was on rails, shockingly good handling. I think you have a problem, as opposed to your driving style

holy thread resurrection Batman!