1494 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHIMS bearing failure for your 996, Y or N? tell us (yr, 996 Mk1 or MK2 failure mode)
Reported or suspected cause
best decision yet
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
1
Identified cause
0
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that report identifying a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
IMS bearing failure for your 996, Y or N? tell us (yr, 996 Mk1 or MK2 failure mode)
Read full discussion summary
Leading evidence: 'best decision yet' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'best decision yet' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Adjust fittings until the line doesn't touch anything' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that report identifying a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Reported cause
I assume it was the factory bearing, and it was dual row.
IMS bearing failure for your 996, Y or N? tell us (yr, 996 Mk1 or MK2 failure mode)
failed driver side catalytic converter - phew
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
1
Identified cause
0
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that report identifying a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Reported cause
Long story short - turned out to be a failed driver side catalytic converter - phew.
IMS bearing failure for your 996, Y or N? tell us (yr, 996 Mk1 or MK2 failure mode)
have a perfect dual row bearing
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
1
Identified cause
0
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that report identifying a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Reported cause
Finally replaced pulled the bearing yesterday and it turned out to have a perfect dual row bearing with no signs of problems.
IMS bearing failure for your 996, Y or N? tell us (yr, 996 Mk1 or MK2 failure mode)
ims bearing
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
1
Identified cause
0
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that report identifying a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Reported cause
Yes, it was the IMS bearing that failed and seized.
IMS bearing failure for your 996, Y or N? tell us (yr, 996 Mk1 or MK2 failure mode)
Adjust upward
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
You need to adjust upward for all the cars which failed subsequent to the warranty which Porsche did not report because they were not a covered failure.
IMS bearing failure for your 996, Y or N? tell us (yr, 996 Mk1 or MK2 failure mode)
Coverage and how to read this overview
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
1,494 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 1 adjusted by outcome qualification.
9 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
As requested I have posted this poll.
Many have been asking to understand how many of the 996 cars have had IMSB (intermediate shaft bearing) failures. Although the people on this board are not necessarily a random sampling of 996 owners many have asked to see a poll to get a better sense of it.
Please vote only once for each 996 you own (yes or no).. you can post multiple times but only vote once
Please include details of your car and engine if it failed via IMS and when.
Please let us know if there were any mitigating factors (low oil, overheat, etc) that might have led to the failure
Please post only about IMS failures, this is not about RMS failures
Please post only for your car, no heresay or posting for a friend who doesn't frequent the board
Please post what was done to rectify the failure if your car failed (CPO engine, engine out of pocket, used engine, sold, insurance fire, pushed it into a river etc)
Please ONLY POST DATA HERE. Not discussion.
Hopefully this will help owners and soon-to-be owners get a sense of how frequently this occurs.
*Thanks*
1999, No failure of Dual row IMSB, but preemptively replaced with LN ceramic at 60,000 miles.
Original IMSB still sealed and showed no signs of wear at 60,000 miles.
Original motor, not a replacement.
No issues on my 996 mk2 40th anniversary.
As many veterans of this forum know, these polls suffer from selection bias, incomplete sample size, unknown denominator, fake posts, etc.
But some data is better than no data.
Here is my contribution to the data with a known denominator due to the 40th anniversary fixed production. In our series, it is at least 0.5%.
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ml#post7631524
Here is the 997 forum poll data which is around 5%
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...lure-mode.html
If fake posts present a problem in the future, we could always do just a poll with Rennlist members...
70,000 mile on a dual row bearing and no problems. At 50,000 mile when I had the engine dropped to fix a cracked head/intermix I did replace the IMS flange with the updated flange and removed the seal on the bearing. Next time the engine is out or the trans is dropped I do plan on installing the LNE bearing.
70.000 miles on OEM bearing. 2004 996 C4S Cabrio.
Had the the IMS flange replaced (+RMS) 1.000 miles/3 months ago at local OPC. At the time I didn't have enough knowledge to ask the OPC how the IMSB was or if they have replaced the IMS flange because they "were in there"... Just knew I had a leak and asked them to solve it...
They just suggested replacing the clutch at the same time, which I did.
I estimate doing 5.000 miles at max this year, so maybe next service I will ask the OPC to replace it for the LNE or the INSARO IMSB. On the other hand, I have read at 911uk forums that Hartech (major UK M96 rebuild specialist) doesn't like to replace IMSB on currently "good" running 996's...
This IMSB thing is a bit confusing to a newbie 996 owner like me...
2000 carrera 4 with 120,000 miles.
Original IMS bearing no issues.
Re-did the RMS, AOS, and new clutch at 80,000 miles.
Total loss took the car at 120,000 miles due to some idiot hitting it in traffic.
Original engine was replaced at 105,000 kms due to scored cylinder #6. Had done the LN IMSB upgrade (during clutch job) at about 95,000 kms and the original bearing was in perfect shape.
BTW: my engine could have been rebuilt, but I got a smoking deal on a new X51 from Porsche which I couldn't pass up!
2002 C2
Original IMSB replaced at around 115k miles with the LNE replacement. Mechanic states that the original bearing was still in good shape.
Car is a daily driver and has taken part in numerous DE and autocross events. Uses Mobil 1 0W-40 oil.
2004 996 C2 no issues at 75k miles but replaced IMSB with LNE while having the clutch replaced. Original bearing appeared to be fine with no visible signs of wear to bearings or race.
2004 996 C4S no issues - 37K miles on original bearing.
2001 no IMS issue, cylinder 2 cracked at 68k miles
Replacement engine from 2001 salvage accident car had 72k miles, unknown history but its the original engine based on engine vin, I have put on an additional 5k miles on engine.
IMS failure at 11910K at the beginning of 2010. PO paid for labor and porsche supplied new crate motor even though car was out of warranty as he had all maintenance performed at a dealer.
Currently 67000 miles on chassis, 9000 miles on engine.
Engine replaced by dealer at 58000 miles due to leak traced to an out-of-round intermediate shaft bore (by .07mm).
Factory bearing in both engines.
'99 C2 6-sp coupe, 94,500 miles and still ticking on factory original IMSB and RMS and clutch. No leaks. No issues. Have owned this one since 2004. I bought it when it was five years old and had only 6,000 miles at that time.
Plenty of city, highway, and track time (recent long trip, and track weekend in the last two weeks).
Three previous 996's (1999 bought new, 2001 bought new, 2003 bought new). No IMSB issues with any of them.
I only voted once.
2004 40th Anniversary Edition purchased July 2010 with no issues. I proactively installed an LN bearing at 34k miles pre-delivery and car now has 59k and has been problem free.
1999 C2 996 with 111,000 miles. Motor replaced at 90k due to cracked cylinder. Porsche Crate motor installed in 2008, 20k miles ago. No problems since.
MP
Mayo, Md
2000 C2 with 142k kms, New RMS & clutch et al, in 2010 but left IMSB as is then, as it was not believed to be an issue by previous owner/well-reputed Indy at the time.
Assumed to be a dual row IMSB (early 99 fall production: # ...0220) and still doing well w/out leaks (fingers crossed).
No immediate plan to replace with LN.
02 C2 Cab - 62K kms still with original IMSB (no issues to date knock on wood) - plan to install the LN bearing (not the permanent solution - too pricey) at the first opportune moment (clutch, RMS leaking or whatever might come up). Until that point I'm not remotely concerned as the failure rate is far too low to be concerned!!
I also have to comment on statement on page one that due to data corrupting these types of ad hoc surveys that perhaps these types of surveys should be restricted to "renlist members". I have no idea why so many guys on this forum feel that is someone pays $18 his or her opinion is that much better than a "user". Absolute rubbish and you continually commenting "members" need to get over yourselves!!!
2001 with 120k miles so not sure if single or dual row. Engine serial indicates single but going by serial isn't 100% accurate. Original IMS but had RMS updated to newer version and had IMS flange replaced. So far so good...
Babylonboots;
It is very interesting that you have a dual row IMSB on a 2001. Should we infer then that all 2000s like mine have dual-rows and that the switch to single-rows took place sometimes in 2001 vs 2000?
To say the least, I'm perplexed!
Martin
I stand 'cautioned' your Honour, Evangene!
Alpine: Realized after I sent my post that you were in the same 01 boat as Babylon. You might be right ... or Porsche was simply getting rid of their dual-row stocks in both yrs, 00 & 01. We will likely never know for sure.
2003 4S, purchased the car with 90k miles, had the IMS bearing replaced with the LN Engineering kit for peace of mind. The original bearing was in good shape and probably would not have failed. It is now my most prized paperweight.
03 coupe 109,500 miles.....got my car back today! the bearing had VERY VERY little play (probably the same as when it was new) NO damage to the bearing's seals...no nothing at all on the bearing!!! the RMS was leaking just slightly...new clutch and DAMN is there a difference!! SO much easier to acuate! NOT grainy anymore! i also have a prized paperweight!
Ticking slightly in the beginning. When warmed to 180, its constant. Irritating the least. Ill get it fixed... Now how many people have lifter noise ? Hmm... I do the ""procedure's" just to make sure. Or "The solution" for Dual rows if they offered it..
99 'Tip', 130K (km's), changed out OEM double row bearing (looked great, seals on sides good and rotated perfectly) for LN ceramic bearing just for piece of mind. Got tired of the bad PR and treated the LN install as a maintenance item. Also changed AOS out at same time for same reasons - just because. Motor original and has no leaks, no strange sounds - not even lifter ticking and purrs like a kitten.
Old bearing (OEM) sitting on table in front of engine
IMS.jpg
2002 C4S. Replaced single row bearing with LN triple row bearing upgrade at 60,000 miles. Work was done during 3.8L engine rebuild. Original bearing was in good condition upon inspection.
Only voted once but have had 3 996 models and NONE have had a problem.
2003 Tip sold with 98K miles
2003 X51 race car. 4 long race seasons of nothing but high rpms, still perfectly sound
2002 6 speed, currently with 62K miles. Just pulled factory bearing for inspection while repairing oil leak. No signs of any issues so just slid it back in.
The Boxster site has higher rates too.
I think the takeaway of this poll is the failure rate is not 20-30 or 50%. It's lower than the hysteria warrants.
But Because this site is the search result of an IMSB failure, the poll here probably overstates the real failure rate.
That's not to dismiss the defect as irrelevant. A bearing failure has the potential to virtually destroy the value of the car.
I suspect that the real failure rate is more than likely on 10% of the 3.0% being reported here -- I'd be very surprised if for the entire run of M96 engines it's even near 0.5%!!
2003 C2 Cab
Drooling, single row, SKS, Polish, IMS bearing changed.
2nd time in for same reason - leaking. 1st time @31k 6yrs ago flange "resealed". (no replacements available yet) This time 53,330mi LN bearing kit, clutch kit, flywheel
Old bearing feels/looks perfect no play. smooth turning, no grease, just Motul 8100 5-40. Old oil in tube smelled fresh??
Oil changed every 3-5k and at the end of the season before storage.
I voted no because I had a 2004 C4S that I bought with 425 miles and sold it with about 19k miles 2 years later - no issues at all with that car. I then bought a 2006 Carrera S (build date of 2/06 with larger IMS) and have had no issues whatsoever with it and it has 51,500 miles now.
No IMSB failure
1999 996 C2 Cabriolet, original bearing, 65,000 miles as of Feb. 2013
Update August 2021:
Still has the original IMSB (2-row bearing MK1)
85,000 miles.
No Failure
That's lucky, no valve/piston contact when the IMSB failed. Looks like it will be a nice core for someone. I read somewhere that Porsche is charging $15,000 for a core on the factory rebuilds they sell. Hopefully you get a decent amount for it to offset the LS3 cost.
But it is odd to me that a 2003 had what looks like a dual row IMSB. It looks like two bearing races in the pics, but there does not look like enough bearings rolling around for two rows of bearings.. If you could post a pic of the flange side of the IMSB we could tell if it's a deep or shallow nut recess, then know for sure.
Replaced IMS bearing at 70K in my 1999 C2. It was severely worn and was going to fail in the near future. I was lucky and replaced it with LN double row bearing when I replaced my clutch, AOS, RMS & cam seals.
^^^^ hmmm... New Member, blanket statement, lack of details...please explain further on "severe" and how you came to the conclusion that it was going to fail in the near future. Did you keep on driving around with the IMS Guardian light on or something?
45K miles on an '03. Replacing clutch tomorrow and will be doing IMS at same time. Peace of mind for the 3-10% failure rate is worth it for me.
Yes, I need to learn how to drive a manual transmission car, is why my clutch is being replaced at 45K miles....
98 C2 Cab - Engine replaced at 18k ish by Porsche for free even though out of warranty.
Unsure if it was IMS or cracked cylinder / other issue as it belonged to my father at the time and his memory is terrible.
Car is now on 106k miles and has had no similar issues since or anything else particularly expensive to repair (apart from water pump being knackered in by the drive belt? and the clutch / master cylinder needing replacing) IMSB was proactively replaced at 101k but apparently showed no signs of wear etc
For as long as people think they are unreliable though I will continue to be happy knowing I can pickup another bargain sports car as a result!
2003 C4S. Stock motor with stock filtration, Redline 5W-40. Single row original IMS bearing replaced with LN bearing at clutch change (original) at 75Kmi. just because. The removed stock bearing has a bit of play in it, but visually looks fine, and was full of oil. Presently at 93K mi. The car is a daily driver and sees about 20 days of autocrossing per year (~12 runs/day). All the maintenance performed can be viewed
here
.
2001 C2 manual Cab 52K, no problems at all, bought it with 31 K on it and nothing had been done. but i'll probably go with the L&N bearing when I replace the clutch which is a way off, I have an oil analysis by Blackstone at every 5000 mile oil change. I believe that's a way better method of checking for bearing wear than the Raby Guardian. To me that's a silly thing.
2000 C2 with ~105,000km, proactively replaced its dual row with the LN retrofit three years ago. Original bearing was fine, although the seal had failed.
Fake posts are an issue for sure, although it's debatable which way they'd swing the numbers. Otherwise, this isn't really such a bad poll. Given the 95/5 split, and assuming ownership is the only criterion for sample design, the MOE should only be 3 or 4 percentage points on a population of a couple hundred thousand owners. I actually find it kind of interesting.
If it was restricted to rennlist members only it might keep out some of the riff raff. However I know a lot of the non-members that responded and voted are solid guys. The lack serious polls make it about all we have to go on.
Bit the bullet and replaced the IMS (and RMS) with the clutch repair. IMS was spotless and functional, but I now never have to worry that it won't be, since I now have an LN engineering IMS in its place, and the original IMS sitting on my desk as a very expensive paperweight....
I know this isn't the thread to start a debate, but I have been told of failures of the LN Engineering bearing. It's not a flawless design, we just won't know of its true failure rate for another 10 years.
IIRC, the official advice is that the LN retrofit is a wear item and should be replaced at regular intervals. 50,000 miles, maybe... something like that.
At the risk of not derailing this survey and not technical discussion, IIRC the above is only true for the single row IMSB, hence the new IMSB Solution is only offered for the single row IMSB and not the dual-row IMSB.
Folks, check out the posts in 996 and 986, a class action suit against Porsche for IMS faults has been won. It applies to model years 2001 through 2005. See the post entitled IMS Class Action Suit.
I voted yes but my case was that a PPI found evidence of an impending IMS failure (leak, and metal in oil filter) and it was replaced by the seller with the LNE upgrade, along with an RMS upgrade. So, the real poll answer is "Not failed yet but evidence of impending failure requiring replacement". Definitely it is not a "No Issues" answer.
-Mike
2003 996 C4S, currently 52,500 miles.
No issues but I pro-actively replaced mine with LNE at about 51k miles. My Indy said there was a leak coming from the area which I witnessed. When removed, the bearing seemed solid and fine.
90k miles. Just replaced with LN engineering.
Dual row...
The factory original IMS bearing showed no wear, or play. Still gives a warm and fuzzy knowing it's replaced though.
Bought '03 Targa with 83,000 miles in the summer of 2012 with a 3 year power train warranty. Indy inspected original bearing, and it is fine, but I'll likely put in the LN bearing before my warranty expires.
Wow. You mean your "Indy" removed the bearing, inspected it, then re installed the old bearing?
In order to inspect an IMS bearing, you would have to verify the bearing was still full of grease. The only way to do that is to remove the bearings grease seals which would destroy the bearing.
Thus, if your "Indy" inspected the bearing, he destroyed it then put it back in. It is good you have insurance.
Yikes, then I probably misunderstood him. The shop that I go to is Porsche specific, and it has been around for over 30 years, and I feel good about their work. He probably just meant that there were no signs of IMS issues, like bearing particles or whatever. Thanks for the clarification.
Without having removed the bearing and visually inspected it, the only other way you could conclude the bearing was "fine" would be to verify the engine actually runs, and I assume your Indy did that, and ensure that the oil filter was free of metal debris by cutting the oil filter up and visually examining the filter pleats.
If your Indy did not cut the filter up and examine it, then all you got was a verification the bearing had not failed because the engine still runs. If this is all you got, I would not assume the bearing was "fine".
Possibly a cam timing analysis on a program like Durametric could provide an indication of the health of the bearing by indication how close cam timing was. But I have not heard of anyone analyzing a bearing that way.
But you have insurance, and that makes it irrelevant.
At 40K with a 2003, and a needed clutch change I replaced my IMS and now have the comfort of mind that it will not implode. The original IMS was flawless and is now an expensive paperweight on my desk.
So, what are the odds of getting one with a bad bearing? 100% 50/50? I am new as well but don't roll your eyes. This is a great form. I have always worked on my cars because I had to buy beaters. Never worked on a porsche. I'm not scared of basic stuff and some more technical repairs....but the IMS scares the crap out of me. I am looking at a 1999 911 Carrera 4. 24 service records and 1 owner. Previous owner replaced water pump, fuel pump, rear seals, window regulators, crank shaft position sensor in Nov of 2012. All done by the dealer that I talked to my self yesterday. But have not replaced the IMS.
Welcome to Rennlist.
Hope you've got your anti-flame suit on with your first post, this is a thread to list which year and if you've done the IMSB replacement, many, many, many other thread on the IMSB matter, it would be best to discuss in those threads.....
So, 1999 996 C4, IMSB not replaced, what mileage?
And it seems a missed opportunity when the RMS was replaced.
Your '99 has the dual row bearing (unless your engine was replaced) which is the more robust of the m96 IMS bearings.
As far as odds go, it's fair to say all will fail, just a question of when. About 7% of cars have experienced failure so far.
But if you are handy you can replace the IMS yourself. I did.
These cars are actually fairly reliable and afford amazing performance for the money.
But due to the potential expense of a failed IMS, replace it ASAP.
Need to add a failure. I already voted but at that time both of my 996's were fine, with the 2004 C2 having the LNE retrofit done at 75k while replacing the clutch.
But.... now my 2004 C4S has a failed IMSB at 37k miles. Routinely driven, perfectly maintained with oil changes at less then 5k mile intervals - last oil analysis 4K miles ago was fine.
There is good news to this story but I will either start a new thread or add to an existing one as to not gum up this poll. The poll will not allow me to vote again.
I need to change my initial diagnosis from IMS to oil starvation. So, final prognosis from Jake Raby @ Flat6 is my engine died because the excess sealant from the oil pan was sucked up by the oil pick-up restricting oil flow into the engine.
I have a new item to add to the list of my annual check up items. Drain oil, check oil pick-up for any debris. (and of course.... stare at pretty internals of my new Flat6 engine)
I have to change the ims 996 2000 pressure loss abnormal noise rebuilt engine ($ 13,000) all bearing gasket work was done by autobahn 8 at quebec ccity
e
Lotie 911
My 2001 C4 Cabriolet Tip has done 76,000 kms (47,000 miles), and so far no issues with IMS bearing. It's driven infrequently, but often to redline when brought to the boil. Oil changes at 10,000 km intervals. I noted some clean oil dripping from the axle onto the brake disc when a rear tyre was being replaced. Is this indicative of an imminent catastrophic failure?
Issues I've had include window regulator, main light switch, and a clunking from the suspension when reversing under full or near full lock.
My 98 104K experienced a 10 sec squeal on start up a couple of times, I dropped the oil and my magnetic sump plug was a ball of fuzz! Got to it just in time! The bearing was fine at 99K when I had a cracked head. Sorted bearing myself with kit from pelican. Relatively simple job. Recommend the kit from Pelican. The bearing was still intact but rough to turn and obviously shedding particles.
99 C4 have had it since 2004, bought it with 18K just had my clutch + AOS done for the first time at 139K - Daily driver.
Decided to replace IMS for piece of mind and found the IMS bearing to be in perfect shape, no play at all.
1999 C2, 95K miles... no problems yet!
Of course, due to my other project, (
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-my-996-a.html
) I now have the motor out and available for sale... would make sense to finally replace it now before a new buyer installed it!
Just a thought... with so many owners replacing the bearing preemptively, it would be interesting to know how many issues there COULD have been. Seems that only about 10% of cars had this problem, of course, a fatal issue. How much greater a number of failures would we have seen if everyone wasn't replacing it. Guess we will never know...
2002 996 w/ 31k mi. Replaced original IMSB with LN for piece of mind. RMS was leaking so this is why I decided to do the job. Original IMSB was ok and makes a great paper weight on my desk now. 500 miles on new LN IMSB and RMS.
I had read enough IMS failure horror stories that I felt compelled to have the original IMS bearing on my '04 40th anniversary edition replaced with the LN ceramic bearing. Since the car now has a little over 69K miles I thought that I'd replace the clutch, too. When I took the car in to have both of those items replaced (as well as the RMS), I got a call from the repair shop and they told me that they'd done the IMS and RMS replacement, but in good conscience they couldn't replace the clutch and/or flywheel because they were in phenomenal condition. They said that the clutch disc measured 8.27mm and a new disc measures 9mm, and that they don't usually replace them until they're at 7.5mm. They also said that the dual mass flywheel was in great shape. For what it's worth, the original RMS was starting to be compromised but the original IMS bearing was in good shape. At least I now have peace of mind relative to the IMS issue.
1999 C2 Cab with duel row .. 64000 miles. All Original.. I have read 10 pages and find 2 legit failures. The rest had them changed proactively and found bugger all wrong with the ones they changed. That makes me feel real good. I have no intention of changing the one that came with my engine. Not even if I have to have a clutch changed (which I very much doubt, as I know how to drive a manual car correctly). Theres no guarantee the LN replacement WONT fail. Lets see how many of those fail 10 years from now as a previous poster pointed out. Sitting pretty here eating my pop corn haha
I don't know where the 19 fails in 211 posts come from at the top of this page???????????????????????
To my reckoning 2 failures in 154 postings makes a little over 1% so far. A far cry from the 5 to 10 percent claimed by the scare mongers. UNLESS people simply clicked into the fail or not button at the start of the thread and didn't bother to post. That to me just does not make any sense at all.
its the internet - it doesnt have to make sense
the poll is interesting, I have refrained from commenting as the OP asked that this NOT be a comment thread or a debate, just post facts - fact is I am a little surprised but also know that many people who have cars and are not regular talkers on here find it easy to click a button...and not say much
we call them lurkers
they still have a voice
lets keep this just factual (as can be) and if you want to debate, just dig up an old thread...there's plenty of them - most regulars wish you wouldnt though - just saying
If you click on the numbers in the poll (# failed or # OK) a list comes up with the user names that picked yes or no. So you will see the 19 people that said their IMSB failed them.
2002 996. Had IMS replaced with LN bearing at 104,000 miles for peace of mind while clutch and flywheel were being replaced. Bearing looked mint with no play
So, unfortunately yes, mine (2003 C4S coupe) just failed this past Thursday while on the freeway in slow traffic. I've only had the car for 3 months. It's in immaculate condition, never tracked with 31k on the clock. The car is at my local shop, and I'm debating what to do this weekend. Also, there was no indication that this was about to happen, the engine was bone dry underneath and the PPI came back with flying colors.
Incidentally, I did not burn my engine up. Oil is still in the case, there was no leaks. but with the sound coming from that bearing and gold metal flakes in the oil, it was determined to be the IMS. My shop gave me two options. 1. pull the engine and transmission, just replace the failed part with the more reliable aftermarket one, add a different type of oil filtration system (non-bypass) and flush the engine. (no engine guarantee)
2. Complete engine tear-down. Much more $$$$$$$. (recommended)
I'm inclined to go for option 1. mostly for lack of funds, and also because I don't see myself keeping this car for ten years+. If the car was more collectible, maybe. But throwing huge amounts of money doesn't seem to make sense. Unfortunately, the car is absolutely pristine with low miles, which is making the decision slightly more difficult. I paid top dollar for the car, more than the going rate, because of its 'show-room' condition.
Does anyone have any thoughts on how reliable option 1. will be for me, considering that my shop won't guarantee this route?
Also, as the third owner of this car, would I be a candidate for the lawsuit against Porsche for what is clearly a design flaw in the motor?
Thanks.
Ingiro
'99 C4 Aero. Engine replaced at 134,000 due to debris on highway taking out oil filter housing and starving engine of oil. Just bought car after engine replaced with 61,000 mile used engine by PO from a wrecked(t-boned) '99. PO upgraded IMS bearing along with other items on replacement engine during install. Technically, that's 2 engines without IMSB failure, but just voted once.
I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in, but I'm not sure why you'd have to pull the engine to flush the engine or install a new oil filtration system. Also, a high percentage of the M96s do not have failures, so that would seem to indicate that it would be cost prohibitive and ill advised to change the oiling system simply because you had an ISMB go out - especially because the new bearing should be good to go for a good long time with the stock oiling system.
How did your engine fail? Did it stall and then couldn't be restarted? That could be the end of an ISMB failure as it would indicate that the timing jumped and the valves crash landed into the pistons....in which case your mechanic would not be talking about a "clean out" and new bearing.
If you are lucky and your ISMB is just beginning to fail, you may walk away from this with just an engine flush (although that is pretty dubious and probably difficult to do properly) and a new bearing.
You're right, you don't have to pull the engine to flush the oil and add a spin on type oil filter, but you do to replace the bearing, the transmission needs to come out as well-that's what I meant. Although, the more I consider this, it seems like this (cheaper) way really isn't the way to go. I think I really only have two choices. Spend the $$$ for a rebuild ($18-20k) or sell the car at a huge loss. I feel completely defeated here, either option blows! Considering my current financial situation I think I'm saying goodbye to my pristine 911.
Regarding how it happened: initially I thought I caught this problem early, after all, my car was still running well when I brought it into the shop. It had a low grinding whine coming from in between my transmission and engine, like someone threw a small bag of pebbles into a washing machine. It wasn't very loud, but there no less. When the tech at the shop pulled off the oil canister the oil was filled with gold colored metal flakes-another bad sign. Although after retracing my steps, I actually think, in fact I caught this problem rather late, and feel lucky that my engine didn't seize up. A day before noticing this whine/grind I recall backing the car into a parking space at work and hearing a very loud bang coming from the engine. All seemed fine, so I didn't give it much thought-incredibly stupid of me not to be more concerned then. Anyhow, at the end of that day I drove the car another 17 miles home, and it drove incredibly well, until I started to hear the grind closer to home. Why I didn't put the two together is crazy. I owned a '64 356C that from time to time would make odd sounds from the transmission in reverse, and was an amazing trouble-free car for 15 years. I also owned an old R80/7 BMW motorcycle that used to sound like a tractor going through the gears. So, I guess I just chalked up this sound as German quirkiness, and in no way ever think that it was my engine breaking! Crazy. What happened to German "bullet proof" engineering!? Did I mention I only owned my 996 for 3 months, which just pours salt on the wound!
Anyone interested in buying my car? 30k miles. It still has the new car smell-seriously. Immaculate condition in and out, brand new Michelin PS2's
I guess the fact that I also just had the 60k mile service is of no help since the engine needs a tear down.
Ingiro - As this thread is not intended for discussion I will simply say I that I had a similar experience with my 2004 C4S and a good outcome. See this thread and go talk to a Porsche dealer or contact PCNA directly. Also review the thread on the class action settlement to see if your VIN is in range, you might, at minimum, qualify for 25%
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-for-pcna.html
I recently purchased a 2003 C2, with 101,000 miles. I had two mechanics inspect it, and there were no problems other than a possible air/oil separator that needed replacement.
But, after reading many forums, I decided to replace the IMSB (LN ceramic bearing replacement) and RMS, as preventative maintenance. Of course, once the engine was out, I quickly compiled a PM list of other stuff to replace (all hoses, belts, water pump, plugs, etc, etc.). So, $8,000 later, I have a car that feels factory new and I don't have to fret over a potential engine implosion due to IMSB.
I guess I have to be a paying member to post pix and an avatar? Maybe I will join after the Mastercard is paid off from the IMSB upgrade.
2004 C2 44k miles. No issues but she goes into the shop tomorrow to replace the IMS. Just bought it and haven't even gotten my hands on it since a test drive Sat. I've been travelling this week and have to travel again next week so I won't get to touch it 'till next Thursday night, and I haven't been able to sleep since Saturday!
2003 996 Cab with 40k miles. I found metal in my oil filter and decided to change it out as a precautionary measure. Once the tranny was out, you could see the IMSB was leaking from the flange. With the bearing was out, it had remarkably little play and appeared relatively intact but the bearing seal appeared to be leaking. I figured it only a matter of time before it failed. While we were In there, also changed out the clutch. The RMS was changed out about 18 months ago and was still in good shape.
Why did you vote that your IM$B failed? It did not fail!!! The leakage that you saw in the IM$ area is not unusual and was most likely NOT from the IMS.
This thread is total BS...
Re: "$8k!!! it is only 1500-2000 for the IMS, where did the other $6k go?
I had the AOS, LN IMS done for $2k by a very reputable indy."
The $8 k was the total bill for a variety of work I had done, not just the IMSB. New fron brakes & rotors, a tranny mount (there was a small crack), both front control arms & links,plugs, AOS, RMS, power steering hoses, all coolant hoses, air filter, cab filter, all three wiper blades, and some misc. other little parts.
A bit of the "as long as the engine's out I might as well.." syndrome.
2001 C4, 70k miles; no issues. Thinking about proactive replace using a new system that direct injects oil to IMS to keep lubricated. Waiting to see cost.
http://tinyurl.com/lmuqb5d
To you guys posting that your old bearing "looked perfect". Are you saying the seals are intact and oil was not in the bearing,,,,, or the seals are intact but failed because the bearing and tube had oil in them? Just trying to clarify because my bearing looked fine but bearing and tube were full of oil because the seals had obviously failed. If failed seals are added in the mix the failure rate just jumped from 9+% to about 50%, probably more.
1999 C4, 58K miles, replaced dual-row IMSB with LN bearing as preventive maintenance during clutch replacement. Other than being full of stinky intermediate shaft oil, the OEM bearing appeared healthy. Both seals were in excellent condition, and the bearing had no play.
1999 c4 cab 6 speed
Went to have the IMS changed at 38,000 and found it had almost failed. Metal shaving throughout the engine. Still deciding on rebuild or try to flush it out.
I had a new 2009 factory replacement put in my 2002 C2, after much research no one could tell me if Porsche fixed the problem in the new engine so I finally decided to go ahead and have it replaced. when my mechanic went in to do the retrofit he found that it couldn't be done and the bearing had been beefed up and should be good to go. anyone have any thoughts on this?
still confused!
I just had my IMSB replaced with the LN Engineering ceramic IMS retrofit. As a 2002 car, mine has a single-row bearing. It was replaced at 125,301 miles. I didn't personally inspect my original bearing, but my mechanic told me that it looked good upon inspection, and it didn't appear to be showing any signs of impending failure.
I just purchased an '01 C4 with Tiptronic and 51K miles. Before I purchased, I checked for maintenance records with the local Porsche dealer and found that they had done about $9,000 worth of engine work at 33K miles.
The reason for the work was vague and kind of indicated a cam chain failure. The engine had died on the owner and could not be restarted. The work included flushing the engine, new IMS, new IMSB, new oil pump, new camshafts and chains, new main bearings and rod bearings, and misc. other related to a complete teardown and reassembly.
Because they replaced the main and rod bearings, it leads me to think there were particles in the engine and this was done to be certain any damage from that was contained and corrected. Unfortunately, it seems like the new IMSB was a stock Porsche part. The work was done in 2011.
Does anyone know if this new bearing is of any better quality than the original?
It is interesting to note that this damage occurred at the end of the second owner's use of the car. This person had put only 6000 miles on the car in five years.
So just to be clear, your car DID NOT experience IM$ failure but yet you still voted in this pole that your car experienced an IM$ failure. Is that correct???
Quick question for the moderators(others please feel free to chime in as well). I've experienced an ignition switch failure on my car(one of the few problems I have had in 8+ years of 996 ownership). Does this qualify me to vote in the affirmative in this pole? If so, please change my answer from nay to yea. I only ask because at least four or so voters(I've lost count) did not experience a failure(by their own admittance) yet voted that their car did indeed experience a failure...this does not even begin to take into account the phony bull$^t votes.
Hey Dream Carrera,
Because the IMSB and the IMS shaft were both replaced and because there was metal particles throughout the engine, the Porsche service manager concluded that the IMSB was most likely at fault. He believed that the cam chain and cam damage were collateral damage from the bearing failure. Preponderance of evidence.....
You clearly state that the work order claimed "cam chain failure" as the reason for the engine issues...the IM$ bearing could very well have been replaced proactively. BTW, many issues could lead to metal in the engine.
Also, you just purchased the car with 51K miles but the work was done at 33K miles by the previous owner...did you speak to the service tech who did the work 18K miles(and presumably years) ago? If so, his memory could have been pretty vague.
My point is that you clearly do not know the exact cause of the engine damage but you chose to vote here on this pole that it was definitely the IM$ bearing...this is inaccurate and you should not have voted.
1999 996 Cab 100k miles, replaced IMS Bearing after finding metal shavings during oil change. Bearing was minutes from complete failure. Replaced with LN kit.
KrazyK; In Norway, this will cost you anywhere from $25.000 to �35.000. But yes, a lot of money and grief saved
I just bought the car from Germany, and before taking it home to Norway I made a shop in Germany just replace the bearing to be on the safe side. The car was otherwise in great shape.
Mine...2000 C2 with 65000 K and all original......need to replace clutch and it was recommended that the flywheel should be replaced with the clutch....will do the LN ceramic bearing upgrade and RMS at the same time.....
2004 996 Cab - 84K miles, 3rd owner; no problem
Local independent Porsche specialist advised against a proactive replacement..... except when comes time to replace clutch, then should do it then.
2003 C4S, bought from 2nd owner at 73k miles.
Did LN ims upgrade at Flinkworks in Campbell.
Slight rms moisture, but orig ims was fine when removed.
i was doing new clutch and rms anyways, so happy to spend $650 for the ims upgrade for peace of mind.
PL
99 C2 with 89k miles.
replaced the IMS bearing with ceramic upgrade when my clutch needed replacement. The original IMS bearing was very loose; mechanic said it may have gone another 5000 miles before grenading! Close call
My 99 had a new engine at 84K miles due to ims issue. LN upgrade done at that time. I am amazed what a great car it is. I thought I would drive my 91 cab forever but this car won me over. Kept cab for weekend use.
30k on '99 C2. Purchased in June 2013, two previous owners. Clean with independent PPI and dealer inspection. No IMS issues or oil leaks. Life is good.
Just removed IMS (Since I needed to do RMS and oil cooler water o-rings anyway) in my '02 with 63K miles - looked fine. LNE in there now - so hopefully good to go for another 10 years !
99 with 42000 miles, many on track with no problem. How much are people paying for the replacement installed.I already did the RMS and thought I was done.
Im glad to see the poll number.
You will only hear about the unfortunate 34 people which will scare you and the other 300 will not say a word
190k on my DD 04 C4S with original IMSB
My '99 had an engine replacement by the first owner in '05 at 50k miles. I haven't figured out why yet. The replacement engine has 28k miles. I installed a DOF from Tuner Motorsports. I went with the DOF initially because LN doesn't have a '99 Solution kit, during the install I learned about the replacement engine.
I see a lot of posters saying they upgraded their IMS AND FOUND NOTHING WRONG WITH THE ONE THEY TOOK OUT. Now I ask myself did each of these posters click the FAIL box... I THINK SO. All the thousands of 996 owners in the world. The fail rate is more than likely only 1% failure and they are all on this board haha. This pole is like asking " vote yes or no" if you think Jesus walked on water. IMHO I say no. lol
Hurdigurdiman. before you start guessing what you personally believe the IMSB failure rates are, you should read the Porsche IMS lawsuit documents.
During discovery Porsche provided its internal warranty replacement numbers. No guessing is needed.
The actual court documents including depositions from the director of Porsche's warranty department are available. Porsche has made over 3,100 warranty claims and paid out over $20,000,000 for IMSB failure's while the factory 50,000 mile warranty was still in place.
http://www.imsporschesettlement.com/...y_approval.pdf
Porsche produced over 4,000 pages of IMS data through court mandated discovery. This is real data.
Out of 57,000 cars sold, there were 3,100 warranty claims That's 5.4%
Bear in mind that Porsches 5.4% failure rate was for claims made during the warranty period. The poll on this forum does not have that limitation, so is understandably higher.
Hurdi - this is obviously a very touchy subject for you. I replaced an IMSB during a clutch replacement and I did NOT vote as a fail. At 75K miles the bearing looked fine, the oil in the tube, not so good.
That said, I later had a true failure on my other 996 at 37k miles and Porsche provided a crate engine as "good will". I didn't vote on that one as the poll only allowed me to vote one time. So add one more to the true failure column.
You don't really need to defend your position, nor berate others for their position. You believe the failure rate to be minimal (insignificant) and you are confident that because of your driving style and maintenance that you can prevent such failure. Let that be good enough for you and continue to enjoy your ride. I always have and still do enjoy mine.
I'm reading this a bit differently. It says and I quote:
"To date, Porsche has spent over $20M reimbursing customers for the parts & labors, necessary to repair vehicles experiencing engine failures as a result of the defective IMS shaft". Then, it adds: "This entails approximately 3,100 claims granted under warranty or good will."
To date
implies to me that the $20M would include all claims including double rows, single rows and bigger single rows up to now. This means that $20M would include a much larger fleet of cars than the 57,900 affecting only the single rows involved in this suit, having for results that the percentage of total failures is much less than the 5.4% you state in your post.
We will likely never know and it is still an aberration the way Porsche has treated its customers by not fessing up with a "recall", but I believe the ratio of failure to be much closer to 1% than your 5.4% if my reading of the meaning of "To date" is the correct one.
JMLavoie, Your 1% estimation is based on nothing more than your speculation that the "to date" numbers implies something other than what the lawsuit explicitly stated. But you decline to provide any actual numbers to support whatever your basis is in arriving at your 1% estimation. I agree the numbers provided by Porsche may not be perfect, but it's the best information out there. No way is it off by a factor of 5 as you suggest.
Additionally, your 1% estimate ignores the fact that these failures were only the failures which occurred during the warranty period. You need to adjust upward for all the cars which failed subsequent to the warranty which Porsche did not report because they were not a covered failure.
You better believe that by the 200,000 mile point, the failure rate is way higher than by the end of the factory warranty period.
1999, 996, with 75k, original IMS, getting the LN Engineering kit done in the next few weeks just for peice of mind. This is a great thread because you usually hear more about the horror storys.
Its great to see 996s out there with 100k + miles.
Hello Marc. 40th anniv #1306 ate it`s engine at 20,000 mi. Then original engine was fixed at Barrier Porsche near Seattle. I saw all the papers. Mechanic there logged a staggering 31 hours to do this job. Porsche paid the bills. Now car has 40,000 mi. and works perfect. I am convinced the recommended service intervals are way off. It now gets oil and filter every 3,000 mi. along with anything else that isn`t right. Having done research, the mobil 1 oil at 0-40 weight is too light. Hence valve noise at start-up. Have used 10-40 from another brand with great results. I know, touchy subject.
2002 Carrera
128 000 KM
Full service history with no engine swap
After buying this fantastic car I began reading posts of this horrible thing called the IMS. I got so afraid of this happening to my car that I ordered a new clutch kit, RMS and IMS kit. Delivered the car to my local Porsche Center and they did the work. Cost a hell of a lot of money but now I can sleep at night.
The mechanic told me after that the RMS had malfunctioned, the Clutch needed replacement, and the IMS was OK.
I purchased my 2003 C4S in 2009.
I was attracted to this particular car, as it had had an IMS failure, and had the factory engine replacement done in 2008, just as the warranty expired. I acquired the car with about !*K miles on the engine.
Falling victim to various scaremongers, I intended to install an LN bearing, only to find that my car had the larger bearing in place, much like a MK I 997.
As soon as the IMS Guardian was announced, I installed that for peace of mind.
Though I still have angst about a potential failure, in all my research, the likelihood of mine failing seems remote. I've spoken with many service managers and private mechanics, and this later bearing seems to be far more robust than the earliest 98,99 examples, and rarely fails.
I track the car about 15 days a season, and change the oil after 5 track days.
The car has been a joy to drive, and I've optimized it with an EVOM ECU flash, IPD plenum, -X pipe, and H&R springs.
Would an 09 or later 911 solve all fears? Probably not.
Am I still neurotic? Guilty as charged!
2002 carrera 2 Targa X51
Just purchase the car a month ago.The previous owner changed the engine under garenty in 2004.Now 60KKms and still under garanty for a year,I'll change the IMS at the end.
Fantastic car.
Replaced my IMS bearing with the LN ceramic bearing at 70k miles when I did the clutch. Old bearing was fine, though it was a little "tight" and didn't spin as freely as the new one. 1999 C2
1999 996 C2 cabrio. I was second owner since new, bought from local dealer with 63K in 2010. Upgraded to LN bearing at 77K, finally wrote car off with 115K on the clock in Oct 2013. There was nothing wrong with the original IMSB.
Voted "no". Acquired my 2004 base Carrera rag top with 14,700 miles on the odometer early in December as a 70th birthday present for myself. Reading the forums peaked my anxiety gene. Just had the single row IMS bearing replaced today. Original bearing was in excellent condition as is the clutch. Drove 50 miles round trip to Lake Lure, N.C. this afternoon reveling in the curvy road with a smile on my face, relaxed and humming a Buddy Holly tune.
In answer to the questions: cost of replacing the IMS bearing earlier this week was around $2,300.00 and the work was performed by Pete Martin of Stuttgart Motorwerks in Hendersonville, N.C. Am sensitive to the expense, but Mr. Martin comes very highly recommended and was painstakingly thorough and kept me advised throughout the process. I have confidence in him. Weather being propitious, I do believe I'll take The Porsche-ah (trying to break a life's habit and train myself to make that two syllables) on a meandering trip, visiting the various towns of upstate South Carolina Monday, and visit the superb South Carolina History Museum in Columbia. An excuse to get some windshield time.
Please forgive me for not reading all the pages, but according to the LNE info pages the 1999 - early 2000 double row and the 2006-on larger single row bearings had double the load capacity of the mid-term single rows.
Has anyone had a double row or later large single row bearing fail?
Perhaps this problem is limited to just those mid-term bearings.
I would hope someone who replaced a bearing and found nothing wrong with it would have the intelligence to vote "not failed" and give the mileage present at the time.
Why would they vote "failed," as you suggest?
'04 C2 w/68k. Only had it since August and no history. Will replace when the clutch is done. I'm probably more worried about it eating water pump blades than the bearing going south.
TC
I bought a 996 About a year ago that had the engine replaced due to IMS issue at 75,000 miles. New engine had LN bearing installed in it. I change the oil every 5,000 miles to reduce the chances of that issue again.
Just bought a 2002 C4S with 56K. The previous owner had the IMS upgraded when he replaced the clutch at 54K. Talked to the tech who did the work and he said the original bearing was in great shape. Let's hope the LN bearing is as good as advertised and they didn't replace a good bearing with a bad one.
So basically what I'm gathering here is that there is a lot of IMS replacement going on and it's not necessary. I do understand that it was an issue on some 3.4 earlier models, but for the most part the 3.6's are fine.
Clutch replaced at 72,000 miles. Tech inspected IMS cover and saw no signs of leakage. Asked about replacing bearing and was told the Shop refuses to get involved with IMS replacements...just doesn't do them preventively unless there is a failure...interesting!
2003 996 Carrera, 45 K. NO IMS bearing failure; the OEM was replaced with LN engineering retrofit recently, only as a prophylactic measure (the original bearing was in perfect shape).
2000 C2 Carrera Cab with 38K miles still on original IMS bearing. I didn't even know about this IMS/RMS issue when I bought the car from my brother-in-law and he replaced the clutch for me at 24K miles due to wear. Looks like dealer only replaced the clutch and nothing else. Until today underbody is still bone-dry (knocking on wood). I will continue to change oil, do oil-analysis and check oil-filter every year regardless of mileage to minimize the ISM failure. Cheers,
1999 (98) Porsche Carerra 2
48k Miles
No leaking from rear main seal
No issues with IMS bearing
I love my 911 so damn much it should be illegal, at least in Southern states.
2000 996 C2 Coupe. Replaced IMSB today at 54K miles. Replaced with LN Eng.
Bearing. No prior indication of a problem but bearing was near failure as indicated by rough spots and slight binding as it was rotated by hand after removal. Also, found small amount of very fine metal particals in the bottom of the oil filter cover, but nothing in the filter itself.
2002 996 3.6 cab 52k miles.
IMSB failure.
First signs: sometimes blue smoke driving steep up hill; blue smoke for couple of seconds after cold start. Eventually metal noise from engine.
First repair: replace bearing --> timing off
Second repair: opened engine and checked pistons. Changed piston rings.
Cost: $17,000
2004 C4S 84k miles. Original bearing, no signs of imminent failure. I have just bought the car so I am keeping a close eye on the magnetic oil drain plug I bought. Plan to DIY the bearing change, probably to TuneRS DIRECT OIL FEED (DOF) or Brombacher IMS kit this fall.
No IMS failure here. My 2000 996 C2 died at 46,000 of an intermix due to a cracked 1-3 head before it could develop an issue with the IMS, cylinder ovaling, D chunking, timing chain failure, or any of the 22 other documented forms of early engine failure. Mine was repairable. $12,000 later I had a sell-able vehicle. Took the remaining equity and bought a Mezger engine Porsche, a different kind of fun. Not indestructible but vastly more reliable. 69,000 miles on my 03 996tt and still drives like new.
Porque
03 996tt (current)
00 996 C2 (past)
obviously piston ring wear and not IMS.
SHNEL 1999 C4, 87k miles, preventative replacement of Dual Row with LN engineering, original bearing appeared to be in perfect condition.
What did you expect with a 1999 double race bearing?????
45K miles. First IMS failure at 21,800 miles and replaced by Porsche with a factory crate engine in 2001. Second IMS failure at 45K miles last week. The nut sheared off and caused oil to leak down out of the bearing. Both times the car was using OEM parts, without a retrofit. Was told at the time that the IMS bearing issue was resolved, clearly not the case. Going to have engine rebuilt with upgraded everything, including the LN Engineering IMS retrofit.
So, my 1999 Carrera C4 Cabrio has been hit TWICE by the same issue on a car that has been meticulously maintained and serviced. If the third engine tanks I am going to put lighter fluid on it and set it ablaze and will never buy another Porsche, period.
2002 996 6speed 84000 miles no ims or engine failure, still original clutch. I replaced ignition switch $14, brake switch $29, cracked coolant tank $120, battery $90 , tires and maintenane (Mobil synthetic 0w-40 one a year). I'll inspect the ims during clutch. You should own a Porsche if either rich or a DIY, cuz driving a Porsche under paranoia is not fun and you'd better owning a no headache Toyota Corolla.
Have about 22,000 mile on my '02 Targa, but have only put on about 1,000 miles per year for the last 9 years ... yeah, gotta drive it more.
Anyways, a bit of a garage queen so with the low miles and single row bearing thought I should do the upgrade.
Installed the new LN dual-row Pro bearing (for 3.6l engines). Original was in perfect condition, which I was actually very happy about - fun paperweight now on my desk. AOS was still good and clutch looked like new so did not change. Water pump (apparently another potential trouble spot as they age) was starting to seep so changed that out at the same time. RMS changed at the dealer previously and still good.
Great to have the piece of mind. Voted no issues on the poll.
2002 996 C2. Purchased used Nov 2012 with 28k miles. PPI found metal shavings in filter, deemed to be IMSB failing. Seller paid for replacement with LN Engineering bearing.
Thought that all was good; clean oil filters for the next 12k miles. However the shop did not clean out metal debris, did not follow directions from LN Engineering to qualify engine before replacing IMSB.
More metal shavings in filter at 40k, Jan 2014. Installed mag drain plug, drove another 500 miles -- massive metal shavings. Shipped car to Flat6 (Jake Raby), diagnosed as impending IMSB and main/rod bearing failure along with multiple locations of other wear; engine on verge of catastrophic failure due to debris from previous incompetent replacement.
Installed IMS Solution, repaired all other damaged parts of the engine after full teardown and clean out. Cost: $15k plus $2k of previous (incompetent) IMSB replacement.
Mike,
I should have my car back tomorrow. I had to have all bearings replaced as well, there was visible wear on the rod and main bearings, as well as the scavenger pumps, tensioners, etc. A little metal in the engine can cause a LOT of problems in a very short amount of time. I had the LN Engineering IMS shaft installed with the keyed paddle gear on top of the new bearing. I hope that their bearing is truly a lifetime bearing otherwise if I need to change it again, I'll need another full engine breakdown to remove.
Pay to play I guess.
Best,
R-
I recently purchased a used 2002 Porsche 911 Carrera Cabriolet, The car is
in beautiful condition with Forest Green paint and Savana Interior. The
high lite of the car is the elegant light wood interior accents through out
the car.
The car only had a little over 76,000 miles on it, when I acquired it 6
months ago. Recently it went over 80,000 miles.
On May 15,2014 I was at the Sonoma Historic races with the Redwood Porsche
club. I parked my car in the club parking lot on turn 2. I went down to the
pits to enjoy the action and came back to my car around 2:00pm. I tried to
start my car and it refused to start. After many attempts I had the car
towed to my mechanic. He found that the car needed a new fuel pump. I
picked up the car on Monday, of the following week. I didn't drive it much,
as I was detailing and prepping the car for the Porsche Parade in Monterey
the following week. Friday I had a Doctors appointment, at the VA
Hospital in San Francisco and since it was such a nice day I took the
Porsche.
I live in Cobb, CA and got as far as Petaluma, CA when a voice came on in
the car saying that I had no oil pressure. I immediately pulled off of the
road and called for another tow(2 tows in less than a month.
This time I had it towed to Sonnen Porsche in San Rafael, CA. They looked
at the car and found that the intermediate shaft bearing in the car had
gone bad. I had just had the car gone over 2 weeks prior and no indication
was found of this condition.
Now I am told that it will cost over $20,000 dollars to replace the engine.
Heck that is close to what I paid for the whole car less than 6 moths ago.
So now I have this beautiful car that is worthless. What am I to do? Tear
it apart and sell it for parts????? I have also now missed out on the
Porsche Parade Event.
HotRDVern, I feel your pain. Mine (6 months ago) was running just beautifully when an oil filter inspection showed it was shedding lots of metal. But for you that is all water under the bridge. Yes it will cost $20k or more to get it running to some degree. Apparently there is even some risk that Porsche doesn't credit you for the core -- I have no idea what the chances of that are, maybe others do. Maybe worst of all, its value on the market right now is zero.
But: getting a crate engine from Porsche will just start the circus all over again. If you want to keep this car (it is beautiful) I would strongly recommend getting a rebuilt engine with a better IMSB and get past this BS. Step 1 is get in contact with Jake Raby at Flat6.
I was lucky in that although my car is on its third (!!) IMS bearing, it never had a catastrophic failure. Both failing bearings were caught before total failure; the second was an LN Engineering one, not the fault of LNE but the fault of the shop that installed it. It lasted 12k miles.
I now have an engine with IMS Solution and full flow oil filter, billet steel rods (another nasty failure mode), higher grade timing chains, and replaced all intake valve seats. This is the advantage of a rebuild from a competent shop: I now have a substantially better engine than factory with (I expect) much higher reliability and little more power to boot. I expect/hope to keep this car for at least 100k if not 150k miles (or more). It has been painful in many ways but I now look forward to many years of less stress and more enjoyment, including some track days.
But you won't find more than a "short block" now from Porsche. The crate engine program was terminated a few months back. A of last Friday a total of three crate engines remained in the world supply system.
Try to find one in stock in complete form. You won't.
Only short block assemblies are available. Most dealers don't know this till they try to order an engine.
I sucked it up and scheduled the LN plus all the other engine updates so I hope to never have to verify that.
Thanks to the wonderful internet you can't even sell your car without it anyway.
I have been following this issue while I consider getting a 996 or Boxster.
It seems to me the lesson here is that metal shavings in the filter = the engine is probably ruined and it is just a matter of time until it fails.
Since as a buyer I have no way of knowing if the seller is getting rid of the car (or sold it to a dealer) BECAUSE he found shavings in the filter and knows the engine is going bad, it makes for a queasy stomach in buying one.
It seems to me you shouldn't buy a single-row IMS bearing car unless you find the car so enjoyable that you are comfortable with the idea of taking a complete loss on it.
I am not being facetious here. Ferraris of the 1960's were sold with no warranty at all. If the engine grenaded after 1000 miles it was assumed the buyer was wealthy enough that fixing it was pocket change to him and he wouldn't be bothered by it.
Porsche has just decided that as long as the car lasts until the warranty expires that's long enough because their original buyers only keep the car a few years anyway. This makes perfect business sense.
Personally I can't imagine that the Porsche engineers ever thought a sealed ball bearing would last long inside an engine, and I think it was the bean counters who said they couldn't spend the extra $ to make the design right. Such are the realities of marketing a product-- you have to reach a price point.
But leaving all the owners of the M96/M97 engined cars high and dry is pretty hard to forgive.
If I were an artist and could create an image of Ferdinand Porsche giving us the finger I would.
So here is my IMS Bearing from my M96 3.6L Engine. 196,500km on it and the bearing is like brand new. No Play No Signs of Wear. All the IMS failure hype on the internet, not for me.
NSK
Poland
6204DU17
917
I just had a failure in my 2003 C2 at around 37000 miles. The end of the shaft has sheared off (I was forced to drive it for a while; it's a long story), so the process is beginning for me.
I will probably scroll through all of the pages of this thread, but any advice on the rebuild will be appreciated. I have a mechanic who is extremely competent, honest and experienced. A bit of dark (VERY dark) humor- he kept the box and packing materials that he used to send off the block from the last Carrerra he rebuilt, to the folks who had to bore it out and sleeve the cylinders. I am hoping that I don't need that box...
My advice from having had 2 IMS bearings get very close to failure (you didn't say if yours was IMS related or not, do you know for sure??):
1) If anything has failed inside, the engine MUST be torn apart, all the way down to the bare case and all metal removed. Don't even start this project if you will not do this. Or, like my PO, you can do a half-a$$ed job, replace the bearing (if that's what failed), and pass it off on an unsuspecting n00b (like me) who will have the replacement fail again.
2) Replace known risky parts with better ones than factory. There is quite a menu depending on what your goals are.
3) The cost to do it right doesn't vary a lot, I believe. The cost to *not* do it right can be all over the map, with the top end being a new engine from Porsche (although apparently those are no longer available??).
The key for you is to decide what your goals are with the car. I plan on keeping mine a long time and drive it every day including occasional moderate track days. So I went with the best I could find and added a few reliability options. I would love to drive it to 150k like I did with my '87, or more. There are many lower cost options if you just want to put lipstick on the pig but then you have to live with that.
You are right to look over what others have done and decide what you want to do.
FYI, I also have a very good and experienced Porsche specialist mechanic that I've been going to for over 17 years. He even took a rebuild class from Jake Raby and rebuilt one engine. He's not doing any more because he says it takes so long that he will never make money on it unless he gets really experienced at rebuilds specifically. This is something to keep in mind, IMHO.
Thanks for the info. Yes, it was the IMS bearing that failed and seized. No warning at all. My mechanic has 30 years of experience. I live in a densely populated and relatively affluent area, and this guy is the "go to" resource for German cars. He has (sadly) done many re-builds, and even more pro-active bearing jobs.
He has explained to me that everything has to come out, to see the extent of the damage. In a best case, there will be no cylinder wall damage. In a worst case, I get to decide if I want to increase the displacement when it gets bored out for sleeves. It looks like upgrades are available for the timing chains. The clutch will get new plates, throw out bearing, etc.
I plan to keep the car forever. I actually need to drive it more than I do. I don't like driving it in traffic where I live, so I have only been driving it down in the Appalachian highlands, which is like being in Bavaria, but not easily accessible for me. My guy is very familiar with the ceramic bearings, and is steering me in that direction, but I am intrigued by the "Solution". It looks more permanent and, as a non-engineer, it seems more intuitive to me as a proper fix. I am not thrilled by the recommendation to replace the ceramic bearing at 50K. That seems like the main decision I will have to make. I am interested to know about available upgrades, particularly for stuff that will have to be replaced anyway. At this point, my loyalty to Porsche factory parts is less than total...
There seems to be a lot of information that can be gained from these failures. I am probably restating something someone else has brought up, but wouldn't it be beneficial to ask the persons with failures to fill out a questionnaire with thins such as:
Year, model
Any modifications
Miles driven per year
Style of driving
Typical mileage of daily drive
Time between drives
Oil change intervals
Oil used
Oil Filter used
Minor major maintenance performed, when?
Any leaks near engine/trans housing
Any oil filter inspections done prior to failure?
What were you doing when it failed (vehicle speed, vehicle RPMs, temperature of vehicle, miles into drive, temperature of environment, accelerating/cruise/decelerating?)?
I would think a standard form would be able to extract trends.
I am sure I am restating this, but worth a shot.
Well there you go. Jake or anyone else will tell you, you shouldn't have driven it at the first signs of any trouble. Who knows what kind of collateral damage you've done and what the original issue could've been initially.
BTW, I still do not see a pic of the end of the shaft that's sheared off, unless you mean the IMS bearing.
This whole poll is unscientific and useless so nothing can be gained except wasted time reading this and then worrying about this, which will keep you up or accelerate that ulcer you may already have.
Who's also to say someone didn't create multiple accounts and voted multiple times. Not to mention we have no where near 130k+ members on here which was the rough production numbers of the 996. So based on the total count of the poll, this equates to 0.003% of the owners chiming in which can hardly qualify as a "trend" in any sense. OK, rant off.
I got four significant upgrades on mine:
1) IMS Solution and full-flow oil filter
2) Billet steel connecting rods to eliminate both the loosening bolt and rod strength issues
3) Improved timing chains and new rails
4) Improved intake valve seats (two were loose)
These address my interpretation of the top reliability issues of the M96 engine to produce a reliable daily driver with modest and occasional track use. If I couldn't do that, then to me there is little point in having a Porsche, period. Even still, track use will require a high-temp shear-resistant racing oil (e.g. XP-9).
My cylinders, crankshaft, cam shafts, and most peripheral components were healthy. I got a new water pump, AOS, RMS, belt/roller, plugs, thermostat, heat exchanger, lifters, some hoses, and got the clutch inspected (had 50% left so I didn't replace it). So a load of 40-50-60k type maintenance items were also taken care of and I won't need to touch those for quite a while.
The shop basically did not follow any of the steps listed on LN Engineering's site. The worst is that they replaced a bearing that had already been damaged and was shedding metal debris without cleaning out the debris. Or, maybe even worse, they did the replacement with an obviously non-qualifying engine according to LNE's qualification process. Even if they had qualified it, they should have gone through a massive oil change program to try to clean out as much debris as possible and replace the oil filter with a full-flow filter (without the pressure bypass valve).
I could go on about more things the shop did like replace the RMS which was discovered 12k miles later to be hanging out of the engine block. And forgetting to tighten a suspension piece. Comedy of errors. It appears they just wanted to collect the repair charges and foist the car on a new owner (me) who didn't know better.
Put simply, this engine should never have been retrofitted.
Too many shops treat the IMSR like a brake job these days. They don't pre- qualify engines and they don't care. We've carried out 399 IMSR procedures and have never had a post- process failure. The reason why is because we won't retrofit every engine that comes in the door.
Pre- qualification separates the men from the boys. We developed the procedures, we can sniff out a bad engine a mile away.
I have a 2000 996 with 20,000 miles.... as of today. My breakfast run finally took me out of the teens. No leaks so far. I have a lift and check it often.
[IMG]
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Pulled my IMS bearing at 33,000 miles, still looked and felt great. Felt as tight and as smooth as the new bearing I replaced it with. I did have oil in the IMS tube. New bearing, 30,000 more miles till a new one goes in.
I just upgraded to LN Engineering IMS bearing. An inspection of the original bearing revealed no play and very smooth revolutions. Also did RMS, new clutch kit and bearing, new flywheel bolts, spark plugs, and some other work. Very glad I did it. Now I don't have to keep listening for marbles in my engine.
MK2 with 78640 miles
2003 Carrera; 44000 miles. NO IMS bearing failure. LN Engineering IMS bearing retrofit was installed prophylacticly ; the factory bearing was in perfect shape; just sold the car
2004 C4S manual, 55,000 miles, just installed LN Engineering IMS, factory bearing is very stiff to rotate, and I suspect on its way out (as was the technician who had done dozens and this bearing isn't happy). Did new clutch, clutch hydraulics (wow that improved things) and RMS, coil packs, plugs and had flywheel lightly stone ground.
2004 40th AE 27,000+ mi
had the IMSB and RMS procedure performed a month after purchase as I felt that the car
warranted it
the indy shop that performed the work said that it would likely have failed
What's the latest news on the LN original ceramic IMS bearing longevity?
I have a '99 with a dual row bearing. I replaced the OEM bearing with an LN a few years ago. I am wondering how they are holding up.
Any failures reported?
I pulled my imsb yesterday because my rms was leaking. I bought the l&n single row pro and tools. My ims bearing had 77,000 on it. It came out looking and feeling like brand new!
I feel kinda silly buying into all the hype. I thought about selling the l&n stuff and just replacing with a new stock bearing. I went to the local dealer here in Cleveland and was told the bearing only comes with the shaft. ? Really?
The l&n dual row bearing is a pain to install... the damn little circle clip they use snapped in three pieces on my first try. They sent me 5 more for free. I will try again tomorrow...
I don'tuunderstand the loyalty of these porsche owners who thinks that as long as their engine runs with all replaced IMS bearing and said that no failure is an idiot. Why would any one spend hard earned money to update an engine parts when you paid outrageous price for an car. To me when replacing any part inside the engine is a failure. And most of these porsche owners don't put that many miles consecutively like their daily car. Honestly. The IMS is fail engine design. Porsche should pay for to replace all engine with ims.
I don'tuunderstand the loyalty of these porsche owners who thinks that as long as their engine runs with all replaced IMS bearing and said that no failure is an idiot. Why would any one spend hard earned money to update an engine parts when you paid outrageous price for an car. To me when replacing any part inside the engine is a failure. And most of these porsche owners don't put that many miles consecutively like their daily car. Honestly. The IMS is fail engine design. Porsche should pay for it to replace all engine with ims. Mine engine did fail and cost me lot of money to rebuild the engine. Along the way to rrebuild my engine I went to place called motor meister in Downey California. They took 2 years and 6500 dollars to give my engine in 4 boxes and said they claimed bankruptcy. Lot of missing pieces. Finally took it to 9 xx place Iin long beach to rebuild within few month. The 2004 996 is really bad experience for me and still waiting on class action law suite settlement.
I have a 2002 996 with 55,000 miles on it. I am the third owner.
I replaced my stock bearing because I needed to address a RMS leak. I purchases L&Ns "Single Row Pro" Retrofit kit and the Faultless Tool, plus I had access to the original tool kit. It is all beyond top quality equipment.
I wanted a little conversation before attempting the install which I felt confident I could do myself and I had questions about the wire retaining clip.
Jake Raby, the creator extraordinaire, probably doesn't want this known but he is a great guy! I actually got a call from him personally when I asked for some tech support!
After Jake's few tips, I had a "faultless" installation. The key is to make sure you have perfect alignment of the tool and the bore, push the bearing and clip into the tool about 3/16 so that the clip is past the taper before you start and use lots of light lube.
That dual row bearing and the related hardware L&N supplies makes the stock stuff look really insufficient. The wire clip retains the bearing extremely well, too.
I'm very happy to have made the investment. I enjoy working on my own cars and have been wrenching on them for over 40 years. Even though the IMS kit and tools are not recommended as DIY, if you have the experience and resources this is a straightforward procedure.
I will be posting my experience with some pics as soon as I get some time.
That's a sad story but not typical. Its more of a worse case scenario when you don't do enough research on an older used semi-super car. Sorry for your experience but I'm sure you learned a lot about the 996 NA engine.
Bought 1999 Carrera with 71K miles, original clutch and no IMS update. After purchase, drove straight to shop for clutch and IMS upgrade (and other maintenance stuff). Bearing was toast and about to explode. Shop said it was going to let loose anytime. Dust and light debris in pan. All good now. Great shop. Great car. The toasted bearing now sits behind glass on a shelf between a Hemingway collection and OMC repair manuals....
Car is excellent for those whom question value. If you buy one without the upgrade, please take it straight to a good shop for upgrade and any other repairs. The car and myself got out lucky. Please take note and not risk it.
Lol, more of the fluff that propagates Rennlist. If you haven't taken off the seals and inspected the internals, your story is just a fairy tale at this point. You need to post pic of your paperweight fully dissected to have a story.
If your mechanic found light debris, I sure hope he flushed out ALL the debris from that motor or else that new IMS "safety" blanket of yours really wouldn't do any good either.
Members here have blown motors even after the IMS was done because it wasn't prequalified or it wasn't flushed out completely of debris.
Alpine003 and I seldom see eye to eye. Thats not the case with his last post, as he is spot on!
Once an IMSB is found to be failing, the task is no longer of a "preventative" nature, and it changes dramatically to a reactive event. This means that measures must be taken to determine the extent of collateral damage that may have stemmed from the debris laden oil, and that you must also employ short service intervals, and a better oil filtration measure as well. Filter magnets and sump removals and inspection are also added measures.
These things must be done, especially if the material in the oil and sump are found to be "light", as this debris is by far the most damaging of all as it becomes suspended in the oil easiest and then is delivered to all internally lubricated components within the engine.
The 99 engine is fitted with a dual row IMSB, which is great, until it does begin to fail. Why? Because it has twice as many wear components and will run twice as long before the bearing finally fails. People say "how can that be bad?". My response is "because the bearing takes too long to fail, and the engine continues to operate with a debris filled sump and oil system, and that debris will wear the rest of the internal components".
Collateral damage, leading to extensive engine wear is probable when a dual row IMSB is at stage 3 failure. The chances of that debris taking out the new IMSB is also very great. We'll need to document the details of this vehicle's VIN and the owner's name for the ledger, in case the bearing does fail that the warranty will be void.
Any engine with debris in the sump is not pre- qualified for a standard IMS Retrofit.
I just spent 16 hours this weekend in a class room with 30 Porsche technicians, and I could not beat this into their heads well enough during my Porsche M96 Engine Mechanical Class.
Ditto. There are too many installations being done improperly and on engines that should never be retrofitted. We currently have an individual from New Zealand threatening to sue us and Pelican Parts. He bought a retrofit kit from Pelican Parts, had his local dealership put it in, did not drop the pan, and even reused his original engine oil and then didn't change it after installation and had the bearing fail over a year later. We good-willed him a new intermediate shaft only so we could get the original one back and do a failure analysis, but now he wants us to pay the whole rebuild when there wasn't a warranty to begin with since the procedure was carried out not to proper protocol. It's easier to blame someone else to accept when you are the only one to blame.
The dialogue from the person in New Zealand is laughable... Re use oil and then run that oil for another year before ever changing it? Failure should be expected.
In the words of Tony Callas, as he states in every class we instruct together: "its easier to be a victim, than a failure."
One of those members is right here. See my signature. Incompetent shop that followed none of the requirements for IMSB replacement. LNE IMSB on the verge of failure after 1 year and 12k miles. Jake even took a video of the thing rattling around.
Documented the whole thing.. Those people won't be doing any more installs, unless they buy the parts on the black market.
Unfortunately Mike's debris was all throughout the engine and hurt most everything that sees lubrication. His cylinders were able to be saved, so I could carry out an extensive repair by pulling the whole engine apart to remove the debris via ultrasonic cleaning of every component.
Mike had a classic example of an engine that should have never been retrofitted. It was only his own situational awareness of the condition that saved him from a complete engine failure, beyond repair.
Wow, you must have one big cleaner. The best I could do from a grassroots consumer level is to get a jewelry cleaner but really only good for injectors.
Very large, it will fit a block half from an M96 with plenty of room to spare. A pair of 10,000 watt generators, some application specific solution, and 190 degrees of continuous heat make our parts cleaner than they were when they were new..
I have always been driven by the saying "partial implementation yields partial results". In medicine and dentistry it is constantly stressed in courses and seminars that case selection, deciding who is a good candidate for what treatment or procedure, is essential.
I have a single-row, had the LN bearing installed about 3 years ago. Car had 31K, bearing was undamaged. Have put about 25K on the LN since then in daily driving. My extended warranty requires that I change oil and filter every 5K miles or 6 mos, so for me it's the latter and the mileage works out to between 2500-3K. Hoping to get another 25K out of it, we'll see what to do by then, as my warranty will be expired. Maybe take a nice drive up GA way and have Jake do his thing. If he's not sitting on a yacht somewhere by then retired
Jake at Flat 6 - looking to get a used 996 - 1999 to 2004. I am assuming the C4 has the same issues as C2? Secondly, are there shops in Dallas, Tx that I can buy your parts from and they know how to install it? or do you only do your parts in Georgia?
Yes, bearing was starting to wear so replaced it with LN ceramic in May 2014. Grease seal had failed and all grease had washed out of the bearing. 2003 C2 Cab with 40K miles.
Hello everyone,
I recently purchased an '02 C4S that was once a CPO. This 996 has 38k miles and in the service history, it shows a RMS replacement back at about 11k miles (8 years back) done by Porsche. Service shows the tranny was removed to proceed with this repair. I called the dealer to inquire if they serviced the IMS but they could not verify. How can I look further into this? I have called Porsche and they are unable to help. I've driven this 996 @ relatively high RPM's prior to inspection and after. Runs solid...no leak.
Is there a way to determine if this 996's IMS was addressed by Porsche back when the RMS was replaced? Why else would Porsche remove the tranny to service the RMS?
Thank you in advances to all responses!
The transmission needs to be separated from the engine to gain access to the RMS seal, no other way around it.
If the record doesn't show any IMSB work/replacement, then it likely wasn't done.
By far the most likely outcome. The '05 Boxster we got last year had the RMS replaced by a PO (3 POs back, actually) due to leakage. The work order showed an additional 3 hours of labor marked with IMS something or another (don't have it handy right now) but no IMSB in the parts list. '05 was a transition year between the M96 and M97 IMS bearings, the latter being irreplaceable without taking the engine apart but a sturdier bearing. I called the shop that did the work and they said the only way that would happen is if the owner asked for an IMSB replacement "if it was the old style", and after taking the flange off it was found to be an M97 style.
The point being, there is always a trace of IMSB replacement in labor or parts on the work order. If it's not there explicitly, the work was very unlikely to have been done. With an '02 you have the M96 single row bearing which at least can be replaced, which I would strongly urge you to do especially if the car was not regularly driven and has low mileage (and has no metal traces of any sort in the oil).
I had the car go through my longtime indy. He said everything checked out fine when servicing the oil and other components. However, I was thinking along your suggested advice as well. When you say to replace the bearing, am I looking at the LN kit or is there better options available for the '02 models?
You'll get endless opinions but mine is LNE's IMSB kit. Together with Flat6, these are the folks who have studied the issues the deepest of anyone outside of Porsche. But just as important is that the mechanic who does the work follows the specs and procedures on LNE's web site, including making sure your engine qualifies for the work in the first place. As you can see from my sig, mine didn't, the shop did the work anyway, and 12k miles later the LNE bearing was toast.
I recently took a 2000 in trade on another car. The previous owner bought the car new and it only has 18000 miles on it. The previous owner has several exotic cars so the Porsche was not driven very often. He did have the oil changed every year which equates to an oil change about every 1300 miles. I love the way the car looks and drives so I decided to keep it for myself. I came on this board and read about the IMS problems and have decided to just ship the car to Jake and have him do whatever it takes to keep it from becoming a problem. Hopefully it has yet to spew metal thru out the engine. The RMS and the IMS have never been touched. Its seems to me as a newbe to the Porsche world that this particular model is a crapshoot. Many have no problems but many do. The cars aren't worth much but they are beautiful and if they don'r blow up they are fun to drive and a great value at todays prices. To me they look like not a good car to buy as an investment but a great car to own and drive if the IMS issue doesn't bite you in the ***.
I received a formal response from one of the administrators in the class action lawsuit on the IMSB:
"Based on the information provided to us by Porsche in discovery, the failure rate of vehicles with our version of the IMS, from 2001 to 2005, was in the range of 4 to 10%. Porsche began using that particular version of the IMS that was subject to the higher failure rate as part of its production runs exclusively as of May 4, 2001. This same IMS model was used through February 21, 2005. The failure rate of the IMS in Porsche vehicles pre-dating May 2001 and post-dating February 2005 was documented at less than 1%. The higher failure rate between May 4, 2001 and February 21, 2005 is the reason why some vehicles are included and others are not."
So there you have it...
So, how do we run across 2000 model cars with original owners and no engine replacements that have single row bearings?
Then, why do we run across 2005 models as late as October reduction dates that have M96 diameter single row bearings in their original engines?
How do we run across cars that have VIN that are within the range of the class action suit that have the later, M97 IMSB that are not supposed to be covered by the class action suit? Again, original owners, no engine replacements.
Believe nothing of what you hear and only 1/2 of what you see.
Jake, I think the key word in the paragraph is "exclusively", right? There was likely a mix of bearings used sometime between (late?) 2000 and May 4, 2001, but after that the single-row bearings were used exclusively. Similarly for the transition to the M97 bearing. My wife's '05 987's IMSB was inspected (by a PO) and confirmed to have the M97 bearing with a build date of April 2005.
The answer is clear.. They kept horrible records. After all there were no IMS issues, right? So why keep track or care about which engines had what.
You can guarantee that the accounting records per engine would prove which engine had what.
Also, the 8% single row failure report was as of 2012, that number didn't stop..... We've entered 21 engine failures in our failure log since October 1 of this year... No one knows how many of those were the IMSB. We won't see most of the cars, but I do have the reports and symptoms of the failure.
It must be remembered that the build date of the car does not represent the build date of the engine. For obvious reasons, the engines were built first and then waited for final assembly. And as a double wammy, if the engines were built in Stuttgart and the transported to Valmet in Finland, you can have an even further delay between engine build date and final assembly date.
My 2001 Boxster S was assembled in March but had the dual row bearing fitted.......
2002 C4. Daily driver, used occasionally for DEs, Always driven as spiritedly as possible while staying out of trouble. Oil Mobil 1 or Castrol Syntch 15w 50 changed every 5-7.5k miles.
While replacing clutch (2nd) at 125k miles i pulled and replaced the IMS bearing. Bearing was in perfect order, no binding, degredation or other signs of failing. IMS tube did have some oil present. Replaced with pelican parts IMS bearing...
Here's hoping that the replacement lasts half as long as the original!
Again, never judge a bearing by it's cover.. Disassemble it to see the real story.
That said we hope your OE bearing was perfect, those make the best retrofits for sure...
I was in the Victoria Porsche dealerships new facility recently and asked the Servicing Manager for a quote for clutch, RMS and IMSB replacement. I was surprised when he stated that they were reconsidering recommending to their 996 customers replacement of the IMSB due to two recent failures on the LN bearings installed in the Vancouver Dealership by an exceptionally experienced head mechanic. Given the small sample size of LN bearings installed on the BC lower mainland I was wondering if the failure rate of the LN bearing would exceed that of the OEM installation??? Just sayin!!
The first thing that comes to my mind is were those engines pre- qualified for the procedure? I have instructed 2 classes in Canada in the past year and when I have asked for a showing of hands of those who carry out a pre- qualification before an IMSR, I have yet to see a hand raised. These classes were both sell- outs, that means more than 80 technicians attended. Just sayin.
Experience doesn't matter with this, often times the seasoned technicians understand the engines well enough that they'll assume and take risks that first timers, or newbies will not. I'd much rather have a fresh technician at a typical shop install an IMSR than one thats installed 50, because that guy has learned tricks and his enemy is the clock in so many instances. The typical way a shop operates and pays their employees is a catalyst for rushing through jobs.
Some facts:
-The shop that has installed the most IMSR products in all of Canada has not had a single failure.
-Here we have installed more than anyone worldwide, and we have also not experienced a single failure.
The reason for this is because engines that do not pass pre- qualification are not retrofitted, and also because we refuse to use the IMSR as a repair product for an engine after it's OEM IMSB has failed, or is caught in the middle of failure.
I have failed at least a dozen cars for IMSR procedures this year, all because they were found to have some other issue, or they had debris laden oil; which will take out the retrofit bearing. The debris laden oil suspends tiny particles within each drop of oil and delivers death to everything internally lubricated, IMSB and all.
We've been carrying out the IMSR since 2007; I installed the first one and that first one is still alive. Put simply, if an engine has an IMSB failure post retrofit, it is almost always due to a pre- existing condition that was unknown, or because the IMSR was being used as a repair product.
Just sayin.
"-The shop that has installed the most IMSR products in all of Canada has not had a single failure."
Jake: Would you care to be more specific ref above statement? East Coast, Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver?
Both Fanny and I are from Vancouver Island (1.5-hr-ferry-ride to Vancouver) and would certainly be interested in further pursuit, if said shop were on our Coast. Thanks Jake!
I'll be the first to admit we've had a few failures. As with anything mechanical and especially with a human being involved, there will always be failures, no matter what you do or say.
I do have record of one bearing having failed from Victoria Porsche back in 2012. If there have been any others at Victoria Porsche, I have no record. In fact we supply to quite a few Porsche dealerships in Canada with no issue.
If one of our bearings is going to fail due to a defective bearing, they won't make it more than about a 1000 miles. There are probably about a dozen or less failures total where the proper procedures were carried out and we can with some certainty that the bearing was likely the cause. All the others can be written off as collateral damage, from installations gone wrong, or engines already compromised.
The problem we do find is that procedures are carried out when they should not be and furthermore, the steps outlined in the retrofit procedure for qualification of an engine are also ignored. These steps are there for a reason - as we use an open bearing, debris can take out the replacement bearing and the IMS bearing is not the only source of debris. We have seen countless times when the oil sump has been dropped that all kinds of debris both magnetic and non-magnetic that will if the engine is not disassembled, will result in a complete engine failure and the first component to be blamed is the IMS bearing.
If you are looking for someone to do a procedure properly that Jake has trained and certified, need look no further than here for BC:
http://www.juans.ca/
Many thanks, Charles!
I was not aware of those guys in Richmond (right next to Vancouver by Airport).
Appreciate your frankness and honesty about your product!
Hard commodities to witness these days!
Martin
Juan is a sharp guy.. He has attended both my classes. In class he had the answers that no one else had, and he actually noticed a deficiency in the hands on class that me, Charles and 5 other people had missed.
Juan is one of about 3 people that I'd hand one of my engines to and tell them to install it, and I'd not have to worry at all.
As for bearing failures, the IMS Solution has had zero...
So, if an engine has any debris floating around in it, such as from a failing bearing, it would then be better to rebuild such an engine with a sealed bearing like the OEM part?
Maybe this is why Porsche sealed the bearing in the first place - to protect it from oil borne contaminants??
The bearing was originally sealed, so it could be permanently lubricated. The seal creates its own set of issues.
Remember, debris floating around will take everything else thats internally lubricated, too… So the idea is to eliminate the debris, and then you have one less issue to worry about. The stock oil filter housing, with its retarded bypass valve is responsible for part of these issues, too.
There are compromises both ways, thats why I invented the IMS Solution, to eliminate all those compromises and hit the ball bearing completely.
I shipped my 2000 all the way to Georgia for Jakes shop to do the IMSB procedure. I did this because he has had NO FAILURES on the cars he pre qualifies. I just felt real comfortable with that record and it was worth it to me to pay a little more to ship the car to him then to always wonder if the procedure was really done right by someone closer. I'm not saying no one else could have done it as good but that in my head I would only be SURE with Jakes shop doing it. I have an ultra low mileage 2000 that was normally not driven very hard, just the kind of car many have said is the most likely too destruct. I got lucky and there was no damage yet at all, with the new bearing, oil filter, magnetic plug, low temp thermostat etc the car should go for a long time. I like the way they look and drive and think they are a steal at todays prices. I actually like the fact that they aren't worth a whole lot so the temptation to sell and retire on a beach isn't there. Best thing is to drive it for a long time and just have fun.
Thanks!
Here is JD Arthur's 996 during my post IMS Retrofit evaluation today. It was a great day to put 60 test miles on the car on one of the best roads in the country!
This one turned out great, passed the pre- inspection and post evaluation with flying colors . Ready to head home as soon as we can get it loaded on a truck!
JM, my car had the dual row bearing as do most 2000 models. According to Jake my bearing was still ok. This made me happy because I think its best to change the damn bearing before it starts to come apart and spew metal particles thruout the system. Even if it has not failed completely once it starts it does damge that can not be fixed without rebuilding the engine. The engine bearings will not heal by themselves even if a new IMSB is installed. Its a chunk of change just to have peace of mind but if you're going to do it you should do it as early as possible is my thought. The 99 and 2000 models with the dual row bearings had a very low percentage of failures, I think I read somewhere that it was only 143 failures in total for the dual row bearings at the time the article was written. Jake has never had one fail and that of course is my favorite fact about his shop. I get my car back on Tuesday and I'll look at the door tag and let you know if it says when it was built. I think I'll drive it to Los Angeles from here (Las Vegas) next week to have a little fun with it. I make that trip often, sometimes on my motorcycle and sometimes in my truck but now I have another option.
Thanks JD for the feedback!
It is certainly on my mind to have it done. My problem is that I'm a bit removed from that kind of Porsche expertise unless I go to the bigger cities such as Vancouver.
In the mean time, I treat it with respect to attract good karma.
JD isn't exactly our neighbor... His car traveled 2,000+ miles to reach us, one way... I have received cars from Vancouver, and have an engine on Vancouver Island. If there's a road between us and anyone, its not too far for us to work with.
It doesn't stop with a road, we ship cars (via ship!) internationally as well. The record so far was a car that came from New Zealand, and its pretty hard to get much further away than that.
I got my car back from Jakes shop today. After unloading it from the truck I drove it to the car wash as it had hit lots of bad weather and was dirty. I had it washed, it looked great. Judd from Jakes shop called me while I was at the car wash as the shipper told him it was delivered. He wanted to make sure everything was ok as far as the shipping went. I told him everything was fine and as soon as the car gets washed I am driving it to Los Angeles for Thanksgiving. Either Jake himself or Judd kept in constant touch with me by phone or email since the day my car left Las Vegas until the day it arrived back. They were always there to answer any question I thought of and to let me know how things were going as they did the qualifying inspection and the work. It was amazing to me how much effort these guys put into keeping the customer happy besides doing the actual engine work. I drove the car to Los Angeles with a few hi speed bursts and it was great, no problems and no leaks. Jakes shop also gave me all the old parts that they replaced and a couple of quarts of DT40 oil should I need some before I order my own. I left for Los Angeles within a half hour of unloading the car, I didn't check the radio until I was about 150 miles from home and when I turned it on it said radio code on the screen. I think my battery was disconnected and I'm guessing I now need to enter the radio code back in but the code is at my house in Vegas so I guess I have to wait until I get home to do that. The prices Jake charged for the different packages he offers seemed to be about the same as most indie shops. I spent about 1900 dollars for round trip shipping but it was important to me to get it done by the shop with the most experience and knowledge that I could find. All in all I'm happy with the whole ordeal and now feel much better about the car.
This option has certainly been on my mind as well, Jake. We are likely talking of at least $3k for shipping alone from Vancouver, notwithstanding the ferry trip from Vancouver Island (Comox Valley).
I always meant to ask: There is an indy called "European Specialty Car Services" in Nanaimo on Vanc. Is., which is 1.5 hrs from where I live, that do a fair amout of work on Porsches. Did any of their technicians take one of your courses, by any chance? .. if, of course, you are at liberty to share this information.
In closing, having lived in NJ for 3 yrs, I realize how important Thanksgiving is to you folks, so I want to wish you and your family excellent festivities tomorrow.
Martin
If you drive the car to the US border, it all gets simpler and cheaper to ship. This is always an option, as so many shippers won't cross the border.
The only Certified Installer we have in western Canada is Juan's Auto Service, in Vancouver. Juan has attended all of my classes and excelled. He impressed Charles and I so much that we invited him to be evaluated for a Certified Installer. He passed with flying colors.
Unless we've Certified someone, I give no endorsements.
I posted earlier but wanted to give an update. Purchased 99 C2 with 46,000 miles. I had put my first 1,000 miles and decided to get a post-PPI as I did not get a PPI before purchase. The seller had an oil change prior to my pick-up of the car, so I only put 1k on the odometer. I can only imagine, the 1k miles I drove the car were the hardest the car had ever been driven, on the street anyway. Over-revved (purly by accident twice) and power-shifting, engine braking, etc. Needless to say, after reading the bearing hype, I figured I'd rather have it seize around town rather than on a road-trip.
My mechanic performed the PPI and cut open the filter as part of his inspection. He could find no metal with his magnet or visually. So now, I can rock on down the road. Peace of mind and were headed out on the highway. Cheers all.
Can anyone tell me at what year this ins problem was finally fixed presumably with a new engine design? What years 911 is the ins a non issue?
Also do the turbo engines have this problem also?
Thanks in advance!
Joe
Great! thanks for your response. I think I'll probably go the safe route and try to buy one that fits these categories. I just can't imagine driving around worrying about an engine failure!
Please explain what IIRC is to a "newbie"
thanks again, regards,
Joe
I just got back from Los Angeles, am now in Las Vegas. This was the first time I drove my car since I bought it and had Jakes shop install the IMSB and RMS and low temp thermostat, also a spin on oil filter and mag drain plug. I just want to let anyone who is interested know that the car ran perfect. No leaks after 830 miles. I drove mostly 80 to 90 mph until I got to LA but also once to 130 mph which seemed like nothing for the car but I was worried about police so I quit there and didn't do it again. I love the car, it now has only a couple of hundred miles over nineteen thousand on it so its still like new. I won't be using it as a daily driver as I have a 3 year old pick up truck that I use for that. It probably will always be a treat when I drive it. Thanks to Jake I don't stress about anything blowing up even though the likely hood of that was minimal. Now I don't even think about it and the car should last for than me. I like reading the stuff on this forum and have learned about lots of things by reading here. By the way m ths car was made in June of 2000 and had a double row IMB in it.
So, has anyone done an analysis on the failure rate of the aftermarket IMSb solutions? I recall reading about a failed replacement bearing within 6 months of the launch of the first one. My suspicion is that the fear-marketed aftermarket bearings likely have a far higher failure rate than the factory part, but it would likely take the evidence discovery process of a lawsuit to uncover the real stats.
From what I could gather. The only failures were caused by improper installation or mainly because the bearing should not have been installed in the first place, it was to late. Metal was still present after a failure and other bearings and parts were already shedding metal and would continue to do so even after a new IMSB was installed and would wipe it out anyway. Many indies will just clean it out as best they can and pop in a new bearing, unfortunately there is more to it than that.
Correct. We have very specific procedures outlined to try to minimize failures as a result of improperly carried out retrofit installations. Most recently we make two big charges - to the Pro Toolkit we changed the bearing driver so that you could not fit the 12 pt nut to retain the bearing and center nut. We discovered some shops were using a zip gun to fit the bearing to the driver tool.
Another recent change to the classic single row retrofit was the omission of a snap ring, requiring users to retain the new bearing with the original clip. The only reason a shop wouldn't have a usable clip would be if the original bearing had failed.
No matter what we do to make this as fool-proof as possible, we still have shops call every week that botch installations and need to be bailed out. That said mechanical systems can't always be made perfect. There are humans involved. Mechanical things will fail.
I don't know about "fear-marketed aftermarket bearings", but our failure rate (excluding those bearings we could prove as having been collateral damage or due to improper installation) is below 0.05 percent (so one out of every 2000) across the 6 going on 7 years we have offered our IMS Retrofits publicly. This is compared to 1% on original dual rows and 8-10% on original single rows. We can probably attribute the very low incidence of defective bearings to the fact they are all hand-assembled and blueprinted by our supplier in CA before they come to us for final assembly.
1999 C2 Tip 65,500km
Nothing yet.
As my car has the double row bearing and the quoted failure rates in the resent law suit were below 1% I was not going to do the bearing upgrade.
I did an oil change and saw about 10 tiny metal particles in the used oil.
I fitted a magnetic drain plug and I will change the oil this weekend (installing the spin on oil filter adapter) and see if there is anything on the plug, if it is all aluminium I will not bother with a bearing upgrade. If there is metal on the magnet I will do the upgrade.
The car has done 17,000km in the last 5 years but most of that was in first two years with less than 1,000km per year for the last 2 years. The car is my daily driver and I have put on another 700kms.
I bought the car two weeks ago and I love it. So much car for the money. I will do most of the servicing myself but don't have the time to do an IMS bearing upgrade.
Does anyone have a recommended installer in Auckland, New Zealand? I don't want this mucked up?
2002 C2, no aftermarket modifications.
purchased as 2 owner car, in 2010, with 21,000 miles on the clock.
first 8 years average ~2625 miles/year
currently, 79,000 miles
years 9-12 average ~14,500 miles/year
not driven daily. many, long, multi-thousand mile road trips. ~1x per week 300mi highway road trip. many spirited shorter trips in between.
no failure or indication of failure of IMS.
throwout bearing failure, at 79,000 miles. currently at independent shop for clutch, flywheel, slave cylinder, aos, ims (LN), rms, and expansion tank replacement.
2002 996 c4 cab 3.6 98k miles still on original bearing no issues. Just cut the filter open and still no signs of metallic particles. At the shop now having the oil changed and ims guardian installed so I can keep a closer eye on it though just in case.
Question for you guys. I have been looking at 996 C4S's and a couple of them have had the Porsche dealership upgrade their IMS. Lets assume it is Porsche's upgraded part. Is this close or as good as LN Engineering or would I need to factor in replacing that for piece of mind??
Interesting. Thanks for clarifying Jake. I did not think that was the case. So - the 2005 997s that have the upgraded Porsche bearing (I realize it is still not the fix and a weak point) is not a part they can use in the 996's? Sorry for my dumb questions. I have read all about splitting the engine case on the 997.1's unless it is an earlier build. Was just confused if the Porsche dealers had an upgrade for 996s that was their part and not LN's.
Ok. That clears it up. So more than likely the 996's I am looking at they say that Porsche upgraded the IMS - it is probably an LN Engineering one. I also assume they would put the sticker in the door that says LN and the date of install.
I think the dealer may be telling you Porsche updated the bearing meaning it has the new larger bearing that can not be replaced without tearing down the engine. If they say that they actually replaced the bearing then that would imply that it was an earlier style motor with the smaller single row bearing to begin with and it is able to be upgraded in a couple of ways. Ask them for documentation on exactly what was done.
The larger Porsche bearing that debuted in about 2006 can be installed in the 996 (M96) engine.
That's the bearing my '01 C4 currently has.
The Porsche dealer installed it for the prior owner in 2011 when something went wrong in the engine.
To install the larger bearing, the engine case must be split in half.
I would think that in order for the late model larger bearing to be installed in an earlier case the case would require machine work and I don't see any advantage to that but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Jake will add something to this.
I'm not aware of any machining that is required.
From what I have read Porsche factory remanufactured engines from around 2006 and later used this larger bearing as did all M96 engines coming from the factory beginning sometime in 2005.
There are at least hundreds, probably thousands of these remanufactured engines out there in 996s; 986s; and even early 987 Boxsters and 997s.
There have been a couple of threads on this forum commenting on these engines, denoted by the letters "AT" included in the engine number.
I am open to correction if I have misunderstood any of this.
Also, I am not saying that these newer larger bearings are better than the LN bearings or any other replacements on the market. Thus far history has shown them to be much better than the earlier single row Porsche bearings, but I have read of a couple failing in 997s as well as one in a Cayman.
I am just assuming that since the later model cases have to be split in order to replace the bearing that they wont fit in an earlier case because the hole in the earlier case is to small. It seems to me that early and late case's are different in at least that area and some machining would have to be done to make them alike before the late model bearing would fit both.
To facilitate the M97 IMSB being fitted to an engine previously outfitted with the M96 diameter bearing, the engine must be completely disassembled. It goes further than splittinge the case, as the IMS is the 3rd part thats installed into a freshly assembled, and the 3rd from the last to be extracted when disassembling. We do a handful of M97 IMSB preemptive retrofits every year, fitting the IMS Solution to them.
The standard procedure would be to replace the entire previous IMS shaft assembly with one from a 2006 or newer engine, or a new uinit from Porsche. The later unit was developed to be applied retrospectively with all engines built before mid year 2000 when the IMS drive changed from a duplex style roller chain to an internally toothed type chain.
So.. If someone owns a 99 or early 2000 996, they'll get a nasty surprise when they take the engine apart for this procedure, as they'll learn that their crankshaft is not compatible with the later IMS assembly.
There's nothing magical about the M97 bearing, its 26% larger diameter, and the surface speeds the bearing sees at lower RPM is more favorable to unloading of the bearing. All the M97 IMSB did was move the failure point from lower RPM street cars to higher RPM track cars, as the IMSB then operates at a speed thats not optimum for it's diameter. We have notoriously pulled apart m97 engines used for Grand Am and World Challenge and replaced their IMS assembly with a M96 style.
The later M97 IMSB cannot possibly be fit to an earlier M96 IMS shaft, as the housing bnore of the shaft cannot be modified greatly enough to allow for this.
So - dumbing this down for me - could a 2004 996 C4S owner have had the upgraded "Porsche" bearing installed with a rebuild of his engine? He is adamant this the case from Bruma Porsche in Jacksonville. He had a major oil leak and dropped it off at Bruma - he has all the receipts. After that he had a second leak and then took it to your shop. Jake - this was the car I had PM'd you about your shop took a look at. I will email the gentlemen next week you told me to that worked on it. This is key in that I am not interested in the care unless it has an LN IMS that is replaceable. I am also probably staying away in that he had a leak before he changed the IMS out and then he had a second leak. If I could feel confident about this car - I may make an offer but sounds risky.
Car is below (a lot of great upgrades -tracked about 1/4 of the time):
https://www.pca.org/classified-ad/304522
Yes, once the engine comes apart, anything is possible in regard to IMSB.
I had directed you to Jud, my General Manager. The first thing he will do before releasing any info about the car is gain consent from the current owner, who had the work done here. We release no information without written consent. Once we receive this, the documentation can be linked via Dropbox for all our procedures.
My car (C2, 2004, IMS failure at 46k) passed 35k miles on the updated bearing without no problems and very good used oil analysis reports. It's my daily driver, the broken engine was repaired by porsche San Antonio.
That definitely fits with the science. Another thing is that the increase in diameter magnifies the lateral force of any imbalance which might happen to be present.
I bought a 1997 Boxster with 43K miles a few months ago. I had seen so much about the issues that suggested that low mileage cars were more susceptible to having a problem that I decided for the peace of mind that I would change out the IMS, RMS, water pump, belt, plugs and tubes, AOS and filters @ the same time. I searched a lot on the IMS issues and what would be the best way to go. My indy mechanic who was factory trained in Germany and worked for a dealer in Jacksonville for 14 years suggested the EPS repair. I had it installed and it seems to be running fine. Here is a video that convinced me.
EPS IMS Oil Lubrication on Vimeo
My mechanic only charges $1400 for the complete EPS IMS repair.
I replaced mine in November, 996 Mk2 with 56,000 miles. Original looked and felt like new!
But I have much more confidence while driving and I sleep better at night knowing I eliminated a potential $15K meltdown
The L&N Dual Row Bearing is much bigger, beefier and just badass!
Just a data point:
In October 2014 I picked up a 2003 996 (Mk2?) C4 Cab. At just under 100K miles the maintenance history was a little sketchy at best.
For peace of mind I took it to Lufteknic in Richmond, VA, and had them do the RMS, IMS and Clutch.
The IMS they pulled out was in very good condition. I had been worried about this, not knowing the condition and maintenance record. There was evidence that the clutch had been replaced at some point, but the IMS appeared to be original.
The original's out. A new LN bearing is in, with a new clutch and RMS seal. I hope I'm good for another 100K!
...sjs...
'03 C4 Cab
Richmond, VA
Failed IMS bearing @ 70,000 miles, no warning.
Religiously checked filter and strained oil through a cloth. Still no signs.
Wife was driving car when it happened and she didn't even notice anything was wrong. I got home and noticed a pool of oil coming out of the garage! I new exactly what it was when I saw the oil.
Removed engine and heads. Scoring inside the cylinder walls, IMS bearing completely shredded, etc. Couldn't tell if it was a single or dual row [probably single], it was too damaged to tell.
You get lemons? Make lemonade! The engine is going down to Vision Motorsports for a 4.0 liter makeover plus some fun enhancements.
Too much money into a 996? You bet!! At my age, this will be my last Porsche so I might as well make it the way I would like it!
Just purchased an 02 C2 last week with 70k on the clock.
Had the clutch, ims bearing, RMS, and water pump done for peace of mind.
Have all service records, and bearing was the original.
Mechanic said bearing looked OK.
'99 996 built in late 1998 with 64,000 miles. Unknown IMS history but an LN unit was just installed. The old piece looked original but did not display any visable wear. Just dirt and grime from the mechanic's hands on the piece in the pic.
Just had my IMS replaced with IMS Solution at 73k. Although I voted "no" on the survey, the bearing seals had clearly failed because when the seals were removed there was no grease and motor oil was lubricating the bearing. Not sure whether or how much longer the stock OEM bearing would have lasted.
2004 40th AE - Single Row OEM
No failure. Vehicle is a 2004 Carrera with 10030 miles. Was a garage queen befor I purchased from original dealer. All records with annual fluid flush and maintenance due to low miles. Purchased a warranty so am sleeping well...for now.
I bought my '00 with 13,800 miles on it. Under recommendation of local Indy I put in a magnetic drain plug and I have been changing the oil every 6 months.
I just passed 21,000. The last oil change had a small metal flakes on the drain plug. Nothing big. I changed the IMS bearing without a second thought. Cheap decision compared to a blown engine.
My IMS bearing is the top one in the pick. The bottom one, done at the same shop at the same time, comes from a car with only 12,000 miles on the clock.
Guys, these external pics of the IMS don't mean jack. You need to take the Seals off the IMS and inspect it for oil contamination along with condition of each ball bearing for signs of gauling and look at the condition of the races too.
My response wasn't directed specifically at you..
I just don't want misinformation spreading on this sensitive topic by peeps that say their IMS was in pristine condition just by looking at the outside of it. I can have a clean car battery too but doesn't mean it's in great condition.
Lighten up too, it's all good.
I would'nt call the actual Guardian a "silly thing"... I would call the people who bought this crap as 'Silly Things"...
COPILOT... I was wrong but still would have liked to have seen the original as stated in my post. I still think his posting was all BS. A worn, ready to fail double race bearing. ??????????????????????????????????????
Hurdi,
You should have known better by now that, YES, 1999 model year M96 engines jaboykin has do have double-row IMS bearings, and LN does sell double row ceramic IMS bearing replacement for these applications.
This makes your accusational comments far more B.S. than jaboykin's comment you were addressing, he also has no obligation to show the bearing, it's his car, his bearing, what he does with it is his business alone.
BTW, long after the original post here, but the statement above is wrong. Blackstone performs molecular analysis using spectrometry; this identifies molecular structures that filter light by wavelengths; it does not see metal chunks in the oil. It is a valuable tool for the analysis of chemical composition of the oil, but it does not see particles. At least use a mag drain plug if nothing else, but even that will not detect some forms of wear, see below.
I have several emails with Blackstone on this topic because I told them that although my oil looked fine to their analysis, it was full of metal due to failing main and rod bearings and IMSB. Their analysis saw none of it, only a slightly elevated iron content but well within their comfort zone and they recommended driving another few thousand miles and retesting.
At that point my engine was very close to catastrophic failure, and the car was already on its way to Flat6 Innovations for a repair. Copper was evident which meant the main and rod bearings had worn down to the inner copper layers. A massive amount of ferrous metal was stuck to the oil drain plug; the copper was evident in the filter housing.
Here are Blackstone comments in emails discussing the results of the oil analysis done on a sample taken just before the car was sent to Flat6:
So relying on Blackstone for detecting bearing wear is completely the wrong thing to do. Yes, it is useful for finding leaks, intermixing, poor detonation, etc., but not for particles. A different analysis must be done.
That's pretty high of yourselves.
So are you stating in your opinion the double row IMSB can never fail? If so then can I send you the engine repair/replacement bill if my double row IMSB ever decides to fail on me? I would feel much better if you'd agree to this.
Ask any Pilot thats saved his aircraft and those on board due to MCD technology just how "silly" the technology is. I have personally been onboard a helicopter when a "chip detector light" has illuminated on the master caution panel. That instance found the aft transmission sun gear failing.
That said, if you inspect your oil every 5K miles, and the IMS Guardian is constantly monitoring the oil for every single one of those miles, whats so "silly" about that?
We get reports of failed engines that consumed themselves inside of 5,000 miles all the time. At the last oil service it was clean, but it didn't make it to the next one. Lots can happen in 5,000 miles or one year, thats enough time for conception and birth to occur for a human, or death for an engine.
Shouting "Hey, Hey, Hi, Hi, Dual-Row Bearings Never Die" while spraying a fine mist of WD-40 on your inoperable convertible top may make you feel good, but you're just...wrong. How can you spend as much time online / on this forum as you do and still be convinced that the dual-row bearing is beyond reproach? YES, it's more robust than the single-row - but no matter how much you shout and how hard you thump your chest, it's still a part that can fail.
If you feel like you have a point to make, cool...but at least try to dial back the belligerence a tick or two when people are posting legitimate comments. Why would jaboykin lie about the condition of his bearing? What does he have to gain?
Here's a photo of Hurdi's Unicorn - a failed dual-row bearing (photo credit: IMSretrofit.com):
87,000 miles, no issues on my 1999 C2. Car is going in for IMS/RMS update, Koni Sport Adjustable Damper/K&R Lowering springs kit, Porsche OEM Short Shift Kit, Low Temp Thermostat, Porsche OEM Center Radiator, water pump update/replacement.
Update - my car has had the IMS bearing and RMS update performed. Installed the LN Dual Bearing. Mechanic said it was starting to leak a little, I brought the stock bearing home to show my buddies how a bad bearing could cost 15k
Bearing honestly looked just fine though, absolutely no deterioration of the bearing ***** themselves, absolutely zero fine metal shavings found anywhere
I did read that the dual row bearing seems to be holding up better than the later single row, but did the update anyways. After having the bearing in my hand and looking at it, have much less worry that Porsche didn't install a good product here. Its substantial and well built, but I suppose the idea of sealing it wasn't the best idea. The stock bearing is actually made in Japan, where the housing is made in Germany, and I would think assembled by Porsche during build. Bearing was very smooth when turned, felt absolutely nothing rough when turned it. But perhaps a different story when being turned at 5-7k RPMs right!! Maybe replaced it before the leaking turned into something more serious, not sure and who knows, didn't want my engine to get destroyed...Clutch was fine with a lot of tread left so I didn't need to replace that saving me some $$.
Can we create a sort of standard measurement for all these "good" IMSBs that are removed, so that we can gather a feeling for wear? Here is what I would propose: 1. Remove both seals from the bearing and note the inside condition. 2. Clean all the grease/oil out of it. 3. Hold the inner race and spin the outer and see how quiet it is. 4. Hold the bearing down by the inner race on a flat surface with something under only the inner race so the outer race does not touch. Then use calipers to measure the amount the outer race moves up and down. 5. If you are a closet engineer, cut it open an take 10x 50x and 100x pictures of the inner and outer race and ball surfaces.
2003 996.2. Yes, IMSB failed.
I preemptively replaced IMSB with LNE ceramic bearing. It was fine for 30 kmi. At the last oil change I found metal flakes on the magnetic plug and oil filter. I had to pay for a rebuilt engine.
I put detailed information in a new thread at
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post12217659
2003 996 Cab - IMS failed resulting in total engine destruction in 2012 at 15,000 miles (yes, just 15,000 miles) while cruising on highway at 60 mph. I purchased this car new and had all regular maintenance performed on schedule at the selling Porsche dealer. After a number of claim rejections, Porsche finally sent brand new engine from Germany at no cost to me as a "goodwill" response. Dealer charged full labor cost to install the new engine, but I recovered 100% of the cost from IMS settlement check.
This is not quite accurate. Your replacement IMSB failed, not the original IMSB. This survey applies to OEM bearing. I don't believe it is fair in your case to vote Yes ... eventhough, I still feel sorry for you.
Agreed; this was not the original IMSB that failed.
Maybe someone can start a count of failed
replacement
IMS bearings of different types. I am curious to know.
Replaced factory IMS bearing with LN Engineering unit while getting a new 3.4l --> 3.6l motor and new clutch following a (probable) AOS-caused intermix.
Todd
99 coupe
Rudy;
Just curious as to when your Millennium edition was assembled?
Also what difference your Millennium would have over a plain-Jane C2 like mine?
I have a 2000 as well and it was built in Aug 99 with last 4 numbers of VIN: ...0220. I don't know when my engine was assembled though. Not sure how to find this out!
Just got off the phone with my shop and although they replaced the original 2001 dual row bearing at 71k miles it was showing normal wear and wasn't an issue.
So I voted no.
I wasn't too worried about it, and have only had the car a month and a half, but it is an expensive engine and with unknown clutch wear and bearing wear it was a good time to have my shop really go through things and give me a baseline on the car.
I was told the manual is easier to check for ims during clutch replacement.
Toyota had an oil sludge problem causing engine failure on v6 and 2.2 engines from 1997-2001 and still rated the most reliable car company. Early 2000 Honda accord V6 had transmission failures and still considered one of the most reliable models. There are so much fake online reviews and myths in order to either bash or sell snake oil. You'll never meet millions of healthy people inside a hospital saying how great they feel.
No Internet hype here, a friend of mine has been a Porsche Mechanic for 30 years for a local dealership here in NC and has helped me with my Boxster, with both advice and a hand when I felt I was over my head. We went out to lunch yesterday and I was telling him about a 2002 C2 Cab with Tiptronic registering 76,000 miles. The car is in nice shape, no garage queen here but it looks as though it has been taken care of and I can get it for $17,000. I told my friend I have a few concerns, namely according to CarFax it has had 5 owners and I have no history to read through. I also brought up the IMS (my Boxster was upgraded to LN) and I was surprised at his answer which is why I asked about transmission type and failure.
He told me, of all the IMS failures he has seen come through the dealership shop, not one of them had a Tiptronic, they were all 5 and 6 speed manuals. I thought that fact interesting. We only had about 30 minutes for lunch so the discussion didn't go any deeper as to why the Tips had a lesser occurrence.
My Porsche mechanic told me he can not guarantee the LN or any upgraded kit cuz he has seen those actually fail sooner if poorly installed. I don't see why a tiptronc has less ims issue, unless your mechanic lives in a manual shifter neighborhood. As I said before, if you're over 50, then you have a greater chance of getting cancer than ims failure.
I had a chance to ask him more on the IMS bearing and he said the manual transmissions tend to put more stress on the shaft and bearing with all the clutching and shifting whereas the tiptronics apply more consistent loads. I thought I would do a little more research so I called a couple more Porsche dealers and neither dealer has seen a tiptronic come in with an IMS issue.
When I had the clutch changed in my 1998 Boxster I had them do the LN upgrade, the double row bearing they took out looked great and that was at 125,000 miles. My concern was the single row bearing in the 2002 C2. Anyway, I have a PPI scheduled for next Thursday with the local Porsche dealer, its $139 but they will look at the code history and do a thorough inspection.
I heard the same information about the TIP being easy on the bearing but I was told that by the previous owner who had not touched it and he bought the car new. I never had any Porsche before I got this one and the internet made me uncomfortable with the issue. My car had a TIP and the double row so I guess the odds were pretty low. Now it has a FLAT SIX installed LN bearing and a TIP so the odds are even better. The issue is that to replace the bearing and it usually means replacing several other things at the same time a chunk of money is spent on a car that isn't worth to much regardless of the upgrades. That fact is what makes most sensible people hesitant to replace anything unless its absolutely needed. Keep in mind that the odds are actually in favor of the car not self destructing even if nothing at all is done. For me and many others we made the choice to upgrade anyway and I for one am fine with that decision. I like the car, am not wishing it was something else, and when I drive it I think its a 80000 dollar car(sticker price) that I'm lucky to own.
I took the car for a PPI at the Porsche Dealer and found out a lot of parts have already been replaced, water pump, alternator, brakes, rotors, CV boots and plugs. I bought the car and now it is getting the IMSB and RMS replaced. Hopefully I will have it back on 05/20. I will have to order some dye and redo the floor mats and the carpet between the rear seats looks a little faded. I had to dye my Boxster Pink back to Boxster Red using Leather Magic Dye and it came out nice. The 996 is Lapis Blue and Savanna Beige with option hard top.
2002 C4s; 122,000 Kms./ 70K miles. Just changed IMS for LN dual row, as well as new RMS; the old IMS looked OK, and there were no issues, except some oil beginning to leak around the area. I didn't want to worry about engine failure while driving.
65k miles developed a consistent knocking sound coming from the engine. Actually had an oil change done at 63k inspected the oil filter all was good. Took car to local mechanic (who is also a Porsche enthusiast and has several race cars he build). His first impression was I am in trouble basically what this thread is all about. Turned off the engine and called in the flat bed. Spoke with Porsche dealer about my options - engine renuild? New engine? Donate the car to cars for kids? Long story short - turned out to be a failed driver side catalytic converter - phew.
Last week had fabspeed install the x-pipe cats 200 cell. Noticeable improvement in power, and the car sounds Amazing deep throaty sound paired with their competition air intake and the PSE. Couldn't be happier I sound like a cup car. Best scare ever resulted in best sound ever
. Back to the forum topic - no problems here - have about 10 friends with 996 not one had the issue.
Mine just went out on my 2003 c4s. Seldom driven, I had 20,000 miles on the vehicle.
I would recommend changing yours now because my rebuilt engine will be $25,000 installed!
I was unaware of this frequent problem. Didn't Porsche owe it to us to tell us of this chronic problem? Pretty disappointed, has anyone had any luck getting relief from Porsche? Class action?
Thank you,
John
Sorry to hear it, John. Unfortunately, even if your car did qualify, you're out past 10 years of in-service, so I don't think you'll be able to recover anything. Congrats on deciding to get it running again instead of just dumping the car.
Had my '02 C2 with 55k miles IMSB done (LNE, single row, with serial number sticker) last week, along with the clutch, pressure plate and bearing, and RMS, at Lufteknic in Richmond. IMSB was perfect, seals intact, and full of grease. Smooth as butter. On top of that, RMS had already been done and was bone dry, but it was a red & blue aftermarket, so I had the latest Porsche one installed, AND the clutch disc had been replaced as well! It had an '05 DOM on it. So, in essence, all the work was unnecessary! But amazingly, the engine shifts, feels and sounds significantly better! Of course you get a fresh oil change with that, which may account for a lot of it, and they use Liqui Moly Hi Tech 5W-40, which I've never used. $3300 out the door, but documented peace of mind, now..
I decided to get the clutch done because I thought it was still original, and disliked the way it was grabby, and feeling. It has been degrading in feel since I got the car almost 7+ years ago. So while he was in there..
I love how smooth and easy engaging the Clutch is feeling now.
Just had the IMSB, RMS and clutch done on my 1999 (72k miles). Original bearing was pristine. Going into this, I was well aware of the failure rate on the early 3.4 engines. However, that LN sticker is like a fuzzy security blanket that cuddles me at night.
2001 C4 Tip with 32,XXX miles, bought used with no service history. So.........
I took it to the dealer to discuss full 40,000 mile service + IMSB. Service manager said he probably wouldn't even worry about the IMSB since it was a Tip.
I then took it to an Indy (about $2,000 less for all the work) for the full 40,000 mile service and decided to go ahead and do the LNE single to dual upgrade while I was at it.
Factory bearing looks great.
Indy told me that in all of the IMSB replacements he has done he has not found a single factory bearing that was bad.
I'm sure that is a very small sampling compared to the tens of thousands of 996s produced but still.....zero is zero.
I think the replacement is good insurance and it will keep me from constantly listening to the engine for the sound of a failure and just let me enjoy that flat 6 snarl.
If a tech hasn't seen a failed, or failing IMSB, there's twonreasons for it:
1- They haven't seen enough M96 powered vehicles
2- They don't know a failing bearing if they see one.
If I have a class with 40 Techs, and I ask how many have seen a failing bearing, usually 1/2-2/3 of the class raises their hands... Most pull out their phones and share the pics with the class.
Like I said, I had the IMS replaced and I am glad I did. But my overall observation has been...
Companies that sell bearings, "It's going to fail, they ALL fail, 2/3s of the techs have seen them fail, your engine will be toast, you must replace NOW! But we still can't warranty the new one for more than 30 days."
The rest of the world, "Yep, some have failed. Possibly as many as 8% and if it does its going to cost a LOT for a new engine. So, you should probably go ahead and replace it when you put a new clutch in. Unless you drive a Tip then its really doubtful you will ever have a problem." Hell, even the DEALER told me not to worry about it since I have a Tip.
In 2007, and before, that same dealer would have told you that it was impossible to extract your IMS Bearing.
Tips only see less failures, because there's less tiptronic cars in service. The failure is not prejudice to manual cars.
Gnat;
Just curious! When was your car assembled in your MY 01?
Glad you had a dual row!
It seems the most comments from people replacing their dual-rows are: 'was in great shape, pristine shape, etc'.
I'm sure it happens for dual-rows to fail but I have seldom heard of it in the past 3 yrs.
I'd be curious to see if your vin number was included in the lawsuit. My assumption is that only single row's were included in that. I have an '01 too so it could swing both ways for me but I'm leaning on the side that mine has a single row since my vin# was included in the suit.
So where are people putting the LN sticker with the bar code? Door, frunk, or bonnet?
Interesting theory. No our VIN was not in the list, but the law firm explained that was due to the in service date when I asked them.
Build date has nothing to do with it in 2000, 2001 and 2005. In these years any car can have either changeover bearing.
Every directive, list or etc isn't accurate. In the real world 35% of the time the directives are accurate as to what we see here.
Y, Fail, 2003, 996 Mk2 C2. I asked my shop to replace my IMSB when I had my clutch done at 89,000.
The replacement bearing failed 6,000 later.
Shipped the car to California from Washington for a replacement rebuilt motor.
This was an LN single row IMS Retrofit. Both LN Engineering and Flat 6 Innovations were notified of the failure by the customer. Upon further investigation, the customer has requested a Single Row Pro, which was not what was installed, bearing installation was not qualified, and also not registered. The serial number could not be identified as the shop doing the install did not put on the serial number anywhere on the vehicle or note it on the work order.
Although out of warranty and documented as the engine not being previously qualified for a retrofit procedure per our directives, we offered the customer and still do a replacement intermediate shaft and bearing no charge.
All we requested was documentation of the engine failure so we can attempt to identify that the retrofit was indeed the source of the engine or if the bearing failure was a secondary failure. The shop with the engine currently was quick to identify with IMS as the source of the failure, but without documentation, we can't validate that statement.
Great service. Wondering why OP left that part out. Would just an IMS shaft repaired the motor or was there more extensive damage(collateral or otherwise) to the OP?
I already posted the failure for the stats, but I had a dual row failure found during a routine change. Luckily didn't have any engine damage. Maybe the dual row gave me more time? Still cost me $10,000 but that's better than $20,000.
Been posted somewhere here before, so you get the short version. $2000 for the IMSB. Tons of metal around the bearing and in the pan. Car ran perfect. Car could not pass certification. Had it buttoned back up and flushed frequent oil changes. After a few thousand miles metal started to show up again in the filter/plug. Rennlist panic set in and I send the car to UFO in California for the $7500 refresh/rebuild. Diagnosis was engine/bearings/IMS/cylinder heads all perfect. Was just some of the old shavings showing up after the engine being used. I guess there are places you can't really flush without taking the engine apart. 20,000 miles later car is perfect.
Hi all
My 1999 C2 coupe with 113000km on it has just undergone its second IMS bearing replacement.
The first one done under the first owner at 80000Km. At that time they also replaced the liners with 3.6L nikkies and also did the RMS.
Now, 6 years and 33000kms later I've just replaced that one with a new dual row version. The reasons for doing this are based on the advice from a long term Porsche workshop who state - "the IMS bearing MUST be replaced every 4 years regardless of distance travelled in that time".
So, being 2 years over this advised period, I did as advised... my workshop initially tried to install the "IMS solution", which when fitted was sitting 2-3mm proud and wouldn't fit properly... many calls/emails later it was removed and sent back. They then used the dual row option which, again, will have to be redone in 4 years time... personally, I find this a serious drag and a clear design fault from the get-go - and I think most would agree!
Interestingly, the IMSB that was removed was 100% fine - no bits missing and no metal in the pan or anywhere else that it shouldn't be either!
However, I don't have to keep the car, theres always the option of selling it etc. But, I'm prepared to do it so far as I love the car.
Anyway, no real gripes here, I just thought I'd share my story with you all to see if anyone has had a similar experience.
AT
OP here. F6I/LN had not made the offer clear at the time I posted. I'd simply notified them of the information provided to me.
Glad to have a spare IMS and bearing.
I am getting the the IMS bearing back so that I can send it to F6I/LN.
Re: engine damage -
Current theory is the Seattle based mechanic installed the single row IMS incorrectly causing it to fail prematurely (@6,000 miles).
In discussing the failure with Vision Motorsports, the bearing seized at high RPM. The exhaust valves were stuck open during "valve float" and struck by the pistons. The valves then struck the exhaust cams. The exhaust cams were broken on both sides of the engine.
EDIT - to clarify, Vision tore the motor down to make this diagnosis. - OP
I purchased a rebuilt motor from Vision Motorsport and shipped the car to their shop to have the dead motor removed and the new motor installed.
Drove it back to Seattle over the weekend. Happy to have the car back.
Dwain and the team were exceptionally knowledgable, helpful and professional. I highly recommend them.
Oh yeah, I remember your thread now but my impression was there was some damage. Interesting to learn that it was just residual debris. At least now you know for sure you got a healthy and long lasting engine after the rebuild.
Nope, no damage. I guess the concern was that the shavings would cause premature bearing wear or get back in the replacement IMSB and cause it to fail early. I am interested to see if this bearing fails. Knowing the first double row failed early I wonder about whether my car has an IMS "alignment" issue and whether this was a factory build problem or a defective part problem that can't be fixed by a rebuild or whether I just had bad luck. I don't worry about it anymore and just drive the car like I stole it.
Hi
I bought a 1998 996 Tiptronic with 92 000 km on. (about 50 000miles)
I have no way of knowing if the IMSB has been changed as the car has had multiple owners. I have been panicking about the bearing ever since i bought the car and i am even tempted to just replace the car with a 997.
This response regarding a 3.4 engine not needing the IMS solution caught my attention.
Please explain. Are there 996 models that are immune?
Where would my 1998 fit in this picture?
Do you need the VIN to determine this?
much appreciated
1998's all had double row bearings. The only replacment from LN is a dual row ceramic bearing with I think a 75,000 mile replacement life. The solution and single row pro will not fit.
The double rows have a 1% or less failure rate. So don't panic. Drive the car. Check and change the oil looking for metal.
The 997.1's also have an upgraded IMSB, but still have a 1% or less failure rate - so unless you upgrade to a 997.2 with the 9a1 engine you are going to be in the same place.
Yeap and yeap. Was going to do the solution in our 01 until they pulled it and found a perfect dual row. If we had known it was a DR I would have left well enough alone, but oh well.
I now have a nifty desk toy though
I was told 5yrs/75k on the new LN bearing. We'll see how I'm feeling 5 years from now (it won't be near that milage unless something significant changes
).
We finally received an order from a distributor that would order a large quantity of
dual row
IMS Solutions. This has been the only thing that kept the IMS Solution from going to market.
I am accepting vehicles for dual row IMS Solution retrofits now, here at our facility. Everything always happens here, first.
Interesting, Jake!
Given the dual row has shown more reliability over the years by an order of magnitude (my very rough estimate), I'm surprised the demand for dual-row Solutions has made it worth it for that distributor to issue that call.
I never thought it would happen, either. We made prototypes and a limited run of the dual row units long ago, which I consumed here on special occasions. It took a bit of work to fit the Solution into the real estate inside the dual row engine, BUT new processes related to putting internal oil pathways within the IMS Solution flange made it a reality.
That said, we have seen dual row bearing sales triple in the last 18 months. I believe the dual row cars are being bought by new owners and they just want to address the IMSB, no matter what.
The demand that led to the large order is the only thing that made the dual row Solution come to pass. We had zero intentions of ever bringing it to market.
We'll have the technology for at least 4 months before it gets to the consumers, so get in line now! LOL
I'm not a new owner by any stretch, but when I finally did the swap a couple of weeks ago I was going to do the Solution until we found out that we had the dual row. I would have rather done the Solution, but such is life. Next time if it's indeed available, that's the route I'll go.
Just lost my 98 Boxster to a bad head gasket and I'm looking to replace it with a 996. I'm most interested in the MKII engines and a 2002-2004 is in my price range.
How much should I expect to spend on an IMS retrofit for a 2002-2004 996?
Any difference in IMS price based on model year? I've been told that in mid-2003 there was a change made that makes the late-2003 and all 2004s more difficult to work on than the 2002s and early 2003s. Any truth to this?
Update. I now have 88000 miles still original ims and clutch but the alternator failed had the original alternator rebuilt($120) and a new serpentine(contitech) belt and did a DIY which wasn't hard but the alternator metal washer was rusted and needed a tap and wd40 to remove. I'm still waiting for my clutch to slip for the ims inspection. Don't feel like spending 25% of the value for a 8% failure rate yet until the clutch goes..
I have a 2004 c2 manual with 37000 miles 60k kilometres
I just had replaced the rms and installed the l&n bearing as a preventative measure .
Did the clutch and new single mass flywheel while in there .
I view the ims bearing as a wear item . Swap it out when you buy a 996 if it hasn't been done and then with every clutch job .
60,000 1998 Carrera white, NO IMS issues, everything is running smoothly, recently changed the fuel pump.
I see worse problems with the S5 V8, BMW 1 series diesel etc.
of course, i am located in Hong Kong:
it has the chassis # WPOZZZ99Z..........Engine#66W13........
the fuel pump failed causing repeated stalling and was replaced a week ago,
other than that i really enjoy the NA sound of the boxer engine above 4000rpm, its a magical sound and addictive
Car reached 88000 miles still original IMS and clutch but alternator failed and had it rebuilt for $120 and installed it including a new serpentine belt. Took me 2 hours because one of the bolts was rusted so little wd40 and some pouding I fished out the alternator. Dealer wanted $1200 for a new unit and Pelican parts has rebuilt for $600. Auto zone rebuilt $150 so I had my original done at the alternator shop.
Bought my 1st Porsche, 2002 Cab w 42k miles 2yrs ago, IMS failed 20hrs after driving off the lot!!! Thank God Dealer was good guys, they sent back check and picked up car!! Yes, I bought another 996
I guess as engine failures go that has got to be one of the least painful stories I've read!
Sorry you lost your first pick, congrats on the replacement.
Good to hear the dealer took the car back! I'm amazed you still got another 996. That situation might have scarred me off...or at least made me buy a car that already had the IMS addressed.
I did homework on 2nd one! Called dealer from Carfax report and they gave me history of 1 repair that included IMS and IMSB and a boatload of other stuff under warranty.
the Carfax report listed a lot of general fairly major work, so I called for specifics. I gave s# and general date of work and they gave me a lot of info w part descriptions and they were very nice. Dealer in Charleston, SC.
2000 - C2 - 94000 miles - No issues whatsoever.
Now the caveat - I purchased the car in CA from a dealer friend who had been driving it and picked it up at an auction (The car was originally from NY). This was in 2014 b/c I did not want to take either of my cars to Italy with me. I run Castrol synth 5-40. Most driving is a high(er) speed between here, Germany and Croatia. So, what this means is I do not know if there has been any prior problems with the car. The only original info on the car was via CARFAX which I take with a grain of salt. No record of clutch replacement/RMS either. GREAT mechanic here and not expensive.
No issues, replaced RMS, clutch and IMSB with dual row pro 2.2 at 73k (kms) as preventative.
Old IMSB was in perfect condition now at 81k (kms). Fingers crossed no engine issues to come.
Always serviced at the dealership annually with M1 0-w50.
Hi all, Interesting read. I have a 2001 996 112k miles, IMS catastrophic failure. Bought a 1999 60K mile core motor with Variotiming tensioner failure and dual row IMS in the process of failure.
I was told my original motor had a IMS failure but instead spun a rod due to Connecting rod bolt coming loose. IMS was perfect.
Purchased my 2000 Cab last December. Seller was up front about "slight oil leak", PPI stated either RMS or IMS leak. Drove car 2000 miles then replaced IMS-it was fine -no problem and RMS-which was the source of my leak-as expected.
While back there-replaced clutch kit, found water pump showing singns of leaking-replaced and Oil Cooler also showing signs of leaks-replaced as well as well as all fluids and belts-including trans oil.
Been enjoying for a full year and looking forward to many more!
I have a 1998 996 with the standard? 3.4 300hp engine,
No failures of anything yet except the manual seat button doesn't work on one of the seats not that I use it but its noted, she has done 114000 kays so its still quite low as a matter of course the IMS was upgraded by a PO so I guess she will be fine.
2001 C2, 93k miles, full maint history from previous owner. No issues, IMS bearing had not failed, but went ahead and replaced the IMS, RMS, clutch, flywheel, etc, so I could get it all out of the way at one time and just drive it.
Replacing mine now - it is 2004 C4S 66k miles and I was leaking some oil - probably from RMS. I am replacing all and putting the LN Pro dual IMS bearing. No noise or metal in the filter but hate to drive and worry.
Those aren't appropriate terms in this context. Either you have solid evidence that it was done or it was effectively not done.
To the best of my knowledge Porsche never proactively replaced a bearing under warranty. Either it failed and the motor was replaced or they wouldn't have touched it (under warranty).
"Intermediate shaft " was entered in Porsche Plano's service history for the vehicle at 16,000 miles. The service advisor ran down the history for me concerning a car I am purchasing.
Could they give anymore details? That is pretty vague and doesn't seem to fit with IMS(B) related warranty work.
The only related work I could possibly think of would be to change the seal from the original single ridge to the triple ridge, but on a 2004 it should never have had the older style seal on the IMSB.
It's always possible, but I've just never heard of them replacing the bearing like that under warranty. Either it wasn't touched or the the motor was replace as far as I know.
Hi
I am in South Africa, and having recently purchased a 1998 996 tiptronic with 92 000 km (60 000 miles), i was anxious re the IMS issue. Imported a vertex fix kit and fitted it together with doing a transmission flush and change of filter.
Turns out the old bearing was perfect, looked like new, but peace of mind now.
Since then the car has a whining sound in neutral when stationary or in gear and moving. the sound rises with engine rpm.
What could this be?
1999 996 double row IMS failing with 75k miles. It hadn't yet reached complete failure, but was almost there.
All the details are here:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...st-failed.html
The engine needed to be disassembled and flushed due to a bad water pump failure that circulated plastic impeller debris throughout all the coolant passages (I didn't want to take any chances). It was very fortunate that I was advised to do a full teardown in order to properly clean out the debris, because the builder found that one of the two rows in the IMS had failed, and the resulting metal debris was destroying the rest of the bearing, such that it was very loose. The metal part of the seal was still intact, but the inner rubber part of the seal was completely gone, so the metal was most likely mixed into the oil as well.
I saw that LN offered a dual row to replace the vehicles that had single row. Any data that shows their dual row is better than the single row?
I have a 2005 C4S and am deciding on if I should be proactive or reactive in the whole IMS issue. I typically do not "fix" things that are not broken- especially since so many have had it "fixed" just to fail later. But considering the car value to fix ratio and I think it may be a worthwhile investment....
Where are you getting your data that "so many have had it fixed to just fail later"? For cars that got the IMS retrofit done at an approved installer, I believe the amount that failed later is extremely small.
To my knowledge that number is zero for Certified Installers.
We've performed near 600 IMS Retrofit procedures, including the very first one. To date we've maintained a perfect score without a single post- process failure.
The issue has been shops not pre- qualifying engines as well as engines being retrofitted after a bearing has already failed.
OK, so I went ahead and took my C4S into Precision Motion today to get the IMS, AOS, RMS and clutch done. Figured I would do it now so that I would not have to worry about anything for a while. Really just looking at it as insurance. The people at Precision are all involved with PCA.org Riverside area and seemed like good people. Garage full of Porsches.... old and new. Cool stuff.
I've been told by a reputable and large Porsche specialist garage in the UK that much of the IMS bearing panic has been created by those selling kits to replace the standard bearing and making lots of cash through the unecessary panic.
The fact is, so they tell me (and if I'm getting it right), the the real issue is the size of the bearing (you need a larger one) not the metal used or the number of bearing runs.
I've also been told by another company that there are a number of unscrupulous garages charging for the (often unecessary) work and not even changing the bearing itself.
So think very seriously about your own situation before rushing into doing anything to your 996. And don't talk to those who flog the kits but either a Porsche main dealer or reputable specialist who doesn't depend on this type of work to exist
I've just bought my second and was looking into the whole IMS thing when I spoke to this specialist and who gave me his insights.
Anyone who has experienced an IMS Bearing failure will disagree with this. Their experiences will be fact, not fiction, or opinion.
Let's not first that here in the US the issue was substantial enough to lead to a Class Action Lawsuit where Porsche admitted to an 8% IMSB failure rate in the single row equipped cars. Thats the percentage that was "agreed" upon when the settlement was initiated.
Believe what you want. Hopefully you'll always be listening to the opinions of others, rather than telling others your story from a first hand perspective.
We don't depend upon the sales of any IMSB Retrofit kit to survive. In fact, we benefit when people fail to address the problem preventatively, either because they don't know the issue exists, or because they fail to believe that it can happen to them. What drives our business is failures of engines, and people wanting to carry out elective reconstructions to get more power, and a more robust engine.
Everyone has some opinion, let them answer my phones for a week here, and I'll bet that their outlook would be different.
I'm not quite certain what you're saying but I'm sure you'd agree that its important for those with 996s that are concerned, to seek advice from either Porsche main garages or reputable Porsche specialists that don't depend on this type of work to exist.
You may not be sure about what I am saying; but, I am very sure that I understand exactly what you are saying... That we have fabricated all these stories and issues.
I challenge you to find one single thread that has been started on a forum from my company, or LN Engineering about this topic. I challenge you to find one single article that we have published about this. You won't find one. You will find some articles where we have been interviewed, but these were occurrences where we were asked by a publication for input.
Absolutely not. Why would you ask someone a question about this who does not see the failures? The only reason you would, is IF you were looking for Unicorns or Rainbows, wanting not to believe the issue occurs.
Further, if a Porsche specific shop has not seen IMSB failures, you don't want them to work on the car anyway, because they obviously lack first hand experience. These are the people who mis- diagnose the failures, and waste the owner's money. You want someone who has been there, and done tat, and learned the hard way before your car ever finds it's way into their shop.
That said, my company has been in the engine building and development business since the days that the 911 was aircooled. We NEVER have depended upon any water cooled Porsche engine to stay in business, and we have never depended upon the 996 "to exist".
I just finished installing an engine into a 600 thousand dollar Speedster, I have a 964 based (4.1L) engine on my bench, a 993 based (4.1) engine in machining, I just finished a 930 engine, and a 4.8L Cayenne Turbo and have two 996 Turbos apart being built into a 3.8 and a 4.0L. Thats just whats apart and has just been finished, it doesn't include any of the backlog for the next 13 months.
If we never sold another 996 engine we'd keep right on trucking along. I wouldn't be able to be quite as selective with the other work that I accept, but the bank account would look the same.
Keep in mind, aircooled Porsches paid for 100% of the development of the M96/ M97 engines that we have to offer today.
What I will say is important is to use ALL the resources available to you before you make any decisions about what to do. This includes articles, forums, and local shops (not just one).
Remember, the posts on these forums prior to 2007, when we developed the IMS Retrofit procedure used to be "My IMS Bearing is failing, shops says I need a new engine". Thats right, times have changed, but the one thing that has always stayed the same has been the critics that are never happy with the fact that some dedicated, hard chargers worked their asses off for years to offer every owner the option of retrofitting the IMS Bearing.
At least you have an option, but its easier to criticize, and blame. Isn't it?
Other than the statement about carefully selecting a shop to maintain your car, the rest is extremely poor advice. A ball bearing is not a permanent, lifetime solution for anything. It has moving parts, and it wears. Many of these IMS bearings fail, and the result is catastrophic.
I have no shop and I don't sell anything, I'm just another owner who has the (more reliable) double-row bearing almost come completely apart at 75k miles, and had to have it replaced. I was lucky that I still have my engine. This problem is very real.
The engine shop I used (top tier experience with both race cars and daily drivers, all years) also highly recommends the larger stock bearing be retrofitted to 996's by using the 997 IMS shaft and stock bearing, with the bearing seal removed. It's not an option for all 996's though, because the chain sprockets are different on the very early 996's. An early 996 crankshaft sprocket will not be compatible with the later 997 intermediate shaft. However, the large 997 bearing is not a guaranteed, foolproof solution either. You'll also hear that some of the larger 997 IMS bearings have failed too (don't know if those bearings had a grease seal, or had it removed as recommended by numerous Porsche specialists). The shop I used removes the IMS bearing grease seal on every 996/997 engine they work on (even cars that are just in the shop for a clutch and new seals), and they have never had one come back with an IMS bearing failure.
That was , in fact, the ONLY advice I gave.
I'm glad that you seemed to confirm one point of mine however - that it's the size of bearing that's more important than the number of bearing runs.
One thing owners need to look at is the value of getting their bearing changed relative to the cost of failure.
Say the odds of failure are around 12/1 and the cost is, say, �8-10,000 (?) and, in the UK at least, the cost of changing to a new bearing is �3-5,000. Is there value in changing the bearing without a reason ? On the face of it, no. Not if you're a good gambler at any rate.
However, what the odds don't reveal are the relative odds of failure compared to mileage done. It would be interesting to see that breakdown if anyone has the data.
Well, to be fair, you went well beyond that to insinuate that this bearing problem is an overblown fabrication designed to make money off of peoples' ignorance and is not worth the trouble to address preventatively.
Your financial analysis isn't comparable to what we see in North America. A complete bearing failure essentially means a completely ruined motor, with few exceptions. A new motor from my local Porsche dealer is $24k installed. Preventative maintenance EXCLUSIVELY for the smaller, replaceable IMSB would be less than $3k (under reasonable circumstances where you can drive your car to a nearby specialist).
The cost ratio can change significantly if you buy a rebuilt or salvage engine. The cost of preventative bearing replacement can go up significantly if it's a later engine with the larger bearing or you decide to do a LOT of other 'while you're in there' jobs, such as chain tensioners, AOS, coil packs, clutch & RMS seal, etc. etc. Many of those usually need to be done anyway.
Dealing with an engine failure would be financially impractical to a lot of 996 owners in the US. We see a lot of 986's and 996's go to salvage due to motor failures because of a combination of the cost to replace the engine and the decline in value.
The question/gamble is, can you realistically recognize an IMSB starting to fail before it damages your engine? I couldn't, I only had a suspicion that there was a problem due to oil leakage on the case in that area of the engine. I just got lucky that I had to take my engine in for unrelated maintenance, and the shop recognized that my IMSB had almost completely failed. They opened the case and pulled out the IMS assembly in one piece so we could see its true condition before the bearing was removed from the shaft (
Spinning IMS Bearing from 1999 996 3.4L with 75k miles - YouTube
). Mine probably failed because the car sat a lot, due to circumstances beyond my control (moving around a lot).
With regard to your question about failure vs. mileage, there is no direct correlation and you'll never find any hard numbers, but the anecdotal evidence overwhelmingly shows the opposite of what you'd expect - that a rarely driven car is more likely to have an IMSB failure than a regularly driven car.
Yes, I agree. With your risk/reward ratios changing the bearing is a no brainer and it seems there is a difference between the US and UK. Changing the bearing over here costs a great deal more, yet the repair of a failed one appears to be cheaper.
The garage also mentioned that one of the problems is caused by Porsche themselves advising long periods between oil changes, especially early on in the engine life. Seems you can help things along and do preventative maintenance by changing the oil more frequently, especially early on.
As others have said, its a crap shoot but I still maintain its wise to be cautious, particularly when it comes to choosing the garage to do the IMS work.
So the 2002 Porsche ims failed at 22k miles and engine replaced in 2012 that makes 2200 miles per year in 10 years. Something fishy about this Krazy post.
Hi
I bought my 1998 C2 Tip with 92 000 km. At 95 000 km i fitted the Vertex IMS fix. Old bearing looked good as new. At the same time i did a trans fluid flush.
Now the car has a whine like a spaceship. Not a loud whine but just a slight irritating whine from the rear of the car. Tech cant figure it out.
Not sure if i should have just left it alone and not fiddled.
I guess it is time for me to chime in here. A new to me 1999 996 C4 with 48K miles and the shop just called and said that the IMS was in the process of failing. It has the dual row bearing in it. I am glad I decided one of the first things I was going to do on this car was get that done. Costly engine repair avoided.
Marc
If you ask them to check the IMS, of course a lot of shops will tell you it's failing to get the extra guaranteed work. I mean what consumer is going to reject that work order or diagnosis, whether true or not. You should always ask for the original bearing back so you could inspect it yourself.
These types of tactics further skews these types of polls, rendering it next to useless IMO.
I absolutely inspected the bearing that was pulled out of the car. It is a bit loose and was doomed for failure in the near future. I had asked that it be replaced anyway as a preventative measure but am very glad that I did. You do have a good point that if someone just wants it inspected and not replaced that the shop could take advantage. I personally don't know why anyone would want that anyway as if you are already in there just go ahead and replace it
Marc
Actually, everyone needs to read Krazy K's newest post. Apparently, his nice low miles CS4 gave up the ghost at an intersection. He only had the Porsche for three weeks and had it towed back to the dealership which states it was catastrophic torque converter and transmission failure. A "$25,000 repair for a car that was just purchased for $26,000"... I wonder if his mustang is snickering in the background?
You just happen to be leaving out that he's getting a replacement transmission for less than $2k though. Still not fun after such a short time, but it's not the end of the world.
And his transmission failure has nothing to do with the IMSB which is the subject of this thread.
He commented many times on this thread and thought it would be interesting to others to follow up on the story of his car which I find painfully fascinating given the service history of the car which included an IMS replacement.
And I fully agree, it's not the end of the world, maybe the end of his "Porsche world", but definitely not the end. He always has his mustang as backup!
2002 C4S, purchased 4years or so back at 98,000km, did clutch and LN IMS bearing replacement right away. LN bearing failed after 35,000kms
Now looking to do a 3.8 rebuild and a few other 'more interesting' mod's :-)
May as well turn it into an opportunity right!
[QUOTE=gartaylo;13120015]2002 C4S, purchased 4years or so back at 98,000km, did clutch and LN IMS bearing replacement right away. LN bearing failed after 35,000kms
Now looking to do a 3.8 rebuild and a few other 'more interesting' mod's :-)
May as well turn it into an opportunity right![/QUOTE
Either a bad LN bearing install or something else caused the failure.
2003 C2 with 44K
Had the OEM IMS replaced while having clutch and flywheel replaced at Porsche dealer in Roswell, GA.
MANY
issues with the dealer and some very anxious days while trying to resolve the mess they had created by miscommunicating what they had and hadn't done.
Extremely
thankful for the guidance I got from Jake and Charles during some very scary days.
In the end the original bearing had been fine, I got some more money back and I can enjoy my car again.
Word to the wise: Don't assume that because it says Porsche on the building that they know what they are doing.
Glad you're back in action. Porsche dealers don't like to install non-porsche parts and they certainly won't warranty them. Little unclear what you had installed - IMS Retrofit??
And how do you prove that? I had the same thing happen to me.
The hard ceramic coating on the LNE ball bearings wore into the bearing racing, shedding steel particles into my engine.
'01 996 130K. Bought car...changed oil...found steel and copper bits in filter element. Pulled engine. Caught it just before failure. Replaced IMS with "continuous oil feed" bearing from Vertexauto. No problems.
If you found metal then it wasn't "just before failure". It failed and if the motor wasn't torn down, cleaned up, and repaired properly this motor is very likely to experience a catastrophic failure in it's future.
Look up Ahsai's and AWDguy's build threads. One of them (I think it was Ahsai) has a good picture of how the debris can get trapped where no amount of flushing will get it out. It just stays stuck in there until one day it finally decides to come loose much like a blood clot
For your sake I do hope you got it in time and your motor will have no more issues. History and the experience of trusted builders like Jake says otherwise though
2004 C2 MT w/70K miles that I bought just 2K miles ago. Removed IMSB and it seems perfect in every respect - tight and smooth like a new bearing. Intermediate shaft tube was also very clean so frequent oil changes may have been a contributor.
Well, I could have probably slapped it back in! But...so much work to get there, I replaced it. And, anticipating the next question, I went rogue and used the RND roller bearing.
voted no as I'm a few miles in with an 03 C2 with 73k now. Got a PPI no leak or signs of an issue. Runs very well on the high speed roads in the west. Working on an appointment to install the solution in CO this month.
2002 C2 purchased in April 2016 with 82K miles. No issues with IMS. Proactively replaced IMS bearing with the updated Pro Dual Row LN bearing (service completed by 911 Design in Montclair, CA).
I just bought my car (2002, C4S). 48k miles, clutch done at 37k and tech said bearing looked good. Not sure what I am going to do for preventive action, other than listen to engine every start up and change oil every 3-4k miles. Might use the cheap 0W-40 mobil 1 because I drive over 20k miles per year and don't really think the $600 in oil will be any better than $300. I drive it hard but also do long commutes. I am guessing that will be a good thing for this car. Last owner did 3-4k per year
"USNA1970".....Keep in mind, many drivers never experienced any warning signs. I completed the IMS bearing service for "Peace of mind"! Just my 2 cents........
Roger that ntouched. I would like to just upgrade the bearing, but probably not happening just yet. so short oil changes and drive it hard after it warms up
2002 C2 with 109,900 miles on the original IMS bearing. No failure, preventatively replaced it with a LN Pro bearing. The RMS was leaking and the clutch was getting close to worn out, so it only made sense to do the IMS while I was already paying for the labor. Nothing in the oil and no signs the original bearing was bad.
'99 C2 w/ 6 speed
Replaced at 119k while in for a worn clutch disk. IMS wasn't original to the car (had a billet flange), but did have a slight leak. Otherwise, the bearing was intact and spun well.
Original engine? I selfishly want to know because I have practically convinced myself I am going to discover a milkshake in my coolant tank...damn forums.
1999 C2 6 Speed 165K miles. Original IMS bearing and the motor was never opened and is the original engine. Came out looking in excelent condition.
Had to rebuild the engine thanks to a Cyl 1 Crack. IMS was perfect. Added and EPS unit as well as an EPS upgraded clutch.
I just purchased a 2003 C2 with 19700 mi.
Had the IMS Solution installed, RMS and clutch replaced. The original bearing was OK. Clutch really didn't need replacement but since it was apart I only had to pay for the clutch kit so I had it done as well.
I'm also trying to decipher some Porsche Plano warranty servicing language to see if my IMS bearing was changed at 30k in 2004 on my '99 C2 Cabrio. Exact text is 'r+r trans & replace leaking rear main seal with intermediate shaft seal housing'
Clutch was also changed in same service visit.
Any ideas?
Apparently Porsche Plano was sold to Boardwalk a while back and they don't have further file data.
A 99 definitely would have had the old single ridge seal so I would interpret that as them taking care of upgrading that seal while they were in there for the leaking RMS. Chances of the bearing being replaced at that time are pretty low I'd say.
I'm not the right person to ask so take my response with a grain of salt
My understanding is that the change was simply to reduce the chance of leaks and nothing more. I don't even think the leaking old style seal was an actual problem, just generated complaints and warranty work.
for the record, I just had the IMSB replaced in my 2000 C4 cab tip, 2 137,500 miles.
The original equipment seemed fine. very VERY minor seep at bottom of flange.......... cannot even tell if it was from the seal...... might have been road grime for all I could tell.
Yes, dual row.
I viewed this intervention as an insurance premium......... I like the car and intend to drive it as long as either of us lasts. The cost of this preventative maintenance item seemed more than acceptable to me given I have already gotten 137k and 17 years on the clock.
Does this forum track aftermarket kit failure as well? Occurs to me that that is necessary too for a good picture, but may be too early yet for many to have gone bad (if in fact any DO go bad).
If it helps I put an LM ims at 25k in my 1998 Boxster and it still looked good when I had my clutch changed at 85k miles, but so did my OEM ims at 70k on my 2000 C2.
2002 C2 with 102k, replaced single row bearing and clutch etc myself. Bearing looked new, no signs of wear or failure. No metal in the oil or filter. RMS was original and had a bit of seep. No seepage from IMS housing.
Just got my 2004 996 with 53K miles, had the LN bearing and RMS replaced within a month of owning it for piece of mind. The removed IMS had some minor play in it (not sure if this is normal). Driving the car now without having the IMS thought in my head.
Just bought a 2003 911 Cab Tip with 81,000 miles. No IMSB failure, no replacement.
It would be great to get a run-time (mileage based) report on when the IMSB failures occurred if anyone is up to it....there appears to be a mileage threshold after which the incidence of failure declines but this would need to be verified.
No failure. 2000 C2 Cabriolet.
Bought used, first thing I did was drive it over the weekend and then drop it off for IMSB, RMS, clutch and a few other preventative items.
IMS bearing came out and was in seemingly perfect shape.
How many miles and did you upgrade the bearing? The IMS forums are like visiting the emergency room where everyone is complaining, ignoring the millions of healthy people outside doing their daily living.
I bought very clean, unmolested car with 93k miles, but no service history aside of one receipt for a new alternator install. Car ws running fantastic, but there was some chain rattle. Mech found little bluish-green rubber o-ring bits in the oil. Bearing has been upgraded to the Vertex Eternal kit w/pressure fed cylindrical bearings. Clutch, RMS, chain tensioners, and a host of other things are being done to get rid of the rattle and put me at ease. Also, to re-establish service history with longevity in mind.
Bought a lovely 2004 40th AE, 62k miles, no IMS service. I wanted the peace of mind, so I immediately had the LN dual row kit installed, found the RMS leaking and water pump leaking. Replaced both. Clutch and flywheel were near perfect. The original IMS bearing was pretty "sticky", not turning or spinning smoothly. Felt like it was clearly a good time to make the change. I can't help but feel I may have dodged a bullet.
Congratulations on the purchase and getting the PM done. I just bought a 2003 C2 Cab with 81K and am thinking of doing the same. What did the work cost you? What kind of shop did the work?
I voted a year ago, no IMS issues. After driving in fear for a year now, I elected to have the preventative maintenance swap done. Installed IMS solution kit, $1,800. Also installed clutch kit (disc, pressure plate, throwout bearing). Rear main seal had a drip on it, replaced that also.
Ready? .... original bearing was in PERFECT shape. 1999 with 51,000 miles.
Congratulations on getting the work done. Did you have a shop replace the bearing or was it a DIY? If you had a shop do the work, $1800 sounds like you got a great deal, assuming they did it right. Or was that just the cost for the solution, and not the labor, tool charges etc?
Well after dropping the motor due to plastic particles in my oil pan, which turned out to be some very worn VareoCam pads and IMS chain paddle guard. I decided to have a look at the state of the IMS and IMSB and do some upgrades. Good thing I did because after removing the Dual Row original NGK bearing with 100k miles on my 2000 911 Tip I noticed the bearing had excessive play and the inside of the IMS looked like a bag of silver glitter had exploded inside. There was some oil and really thick grease splattered on the inter walls of the Intermediate Shaft. I assume that's what kept all the metal shavings in place. Because I had no metal shavings in the filter, after the DIY removal of the bearing it looked like I had partied with Kesha. Hands and work area full of the silver glitter. Now I will have a $450 paper weight to display on my desk. I plan to replace the IMSB with EPS cylindrical bearing replacement. Which is already in the mail and on its way.
mean while I will be cleaning out all the metal shaving or glitter
.
Not if he doesn't tear down the motor and clean it properly.
He didn't catch it before it failed, it already failed. It just hadn't taken the motor out yet. That debris is all over the internals of the motor working it's magic and no amount of flushing the oil will get it all.
Nope. In Ahsai's or AWDguy's build thread there is a good pic of where/how the debris can get caught up in some areas and never get flushed out.
Much like a clot in your blood stream it just hangs out until one day it finally breaks away. Much the same result of throwing a clot too...
The only proven method for getting it all is a complete disassembly and cleaning.
+3
Finished my evaluation of this one about 10 minutes ago.
Single row failed, AFTER the IMS tensioner failed, making the bearing failure secondary collateral damage.
In this case the bearing failed only because the shaft the timing chain loads went through the roof after the IMS tensioner failed.
Tertiary damages include cylinders being scored deeply on all 6 holes, as well as the trauma of the bearing failing taking out the front support console for the IMS shaft assembly. It did not seize the shaft to the plain bearing, but the vibration and shock from the bearing failing snapped it off.
These are the reasons why resurrecting an engine after an IMSB failure is often times a total and complete wasted effort.
Enjoy... Not all IMS bearing failures are IMS bearing failures. This one was a classic.
Classic failure from collateral damages..
Front console suffered damage from trauma and vibration from tensioner and bearing failures.
Even though trauma snapped off the journal of the console, it still rotates freely on the plain bearing end of the IMS assembly
Deep cylinder scoring. Nickies cylinders will solve this.
Global cylinder scoring from debris laden splash oil
The mechanic and owner of a Porsche Audi shop in San Diego owns a 2003 996 with over 140k miles on the original IMS bearing. He has never seen an IMS failure in his shop and all the ones he upgraded were in great condition. Mine was in perfect condition at 90k miles but upgraded during clutch on a 2002 996.
2002 C2 Cabriolet with 27500 and original OEM bearing
No noticeable issues, crystal clear oil which I change every 3 months since I became owner
Contemplating preventative IMS upgrade but expect the bearing will be intact.
My research on cars.com and auto trader.com searching for all Porsche 996s built between 2002 and 2004 show approximately 7.2% of all vehicles for sale have an IMS upgrade. Either a) the ones with upgrades are being held longer, b) not many are upgrading theirs or c) those statistics basically back up what is being used too estimate the number of failures. The problem being most bearings are upgraded before they fail and I see a lot of owners flip their vehicle after the IMS has been upgraded. That makes it look like the owners either have little faith in the IMS upgrade or they want to make a short term profit off of it.
My choices are
1) EPS Roller bearing with splash oil only
2) EPS Roller bearing with oil feed
3) LNE Single Row Pro
4) LNE Solution
If i have to change clutch every 50 to 75K miles then the LNE solution makes little sense because I doubt will ever drive it long enough to need 3 clutch jobs to break even on the IMS solution cost vs replace the bearing each clutch job be it a RND roller, LNE Single Row Pro or EPS roller.
Anyone have issues with any of these options other than the bearing sales people whom I would expect would defend their products.
Unfortunately there have also been bad actors that take the car in to do the swap, find that the bearing is already failing, finish the swap, and then pawn it off on someone that believes all is good because it has the new bearing.
There have been enough of those now that a car for sale with a fresh bearing change is a big red flag in my book.
If this car is a keeper for you, then Jake is right. It's less about breaking even over 3 clutches than it is about solving the core problem. If done by a certified installer the process will leave you confident that you have a solid motor with minimal risk of the major issues.
With a sub-30k milage it really is a prime candidate for the Solution since it should have so much life ahead of it.
Thank you! It has indeed failed already. We would call this a pre-qualification failure.
If someone chooses to replace the bearing still and take their chances, please don't put in an IMS Retrofit or IMS Solution. I don't want to take that call when the replacement bearing fails because it shouldn't have been installed in the first place.
'99 Mk I w/83K miles. Just had the "alphabet" replaced. The old dual row IMSB still seemed "like new". Also, the original clutch appeared to have another 20K miles life remaining.
So maybe I spent money too soon. But now I sure sleep better.
relinuca
I read your post and a single row bearing is not an upgrade. I speak from experience of having a single row bearing detonate after only 4000 miles. My engine is going through complete rebuild and adding the LN Solution. Has this been the original option, even spending 3k...... The car would have been bulletproof and no need to wonder anymore. However, now I'm out 13k on a rebuild and am now having the LN Solition as part of the 13k rebuild. Reminder...... The IMS bearing was replaced 4K miles ago. Invest in your car. This IMS bearings gets zero oil and you expect it to last on the grease put inside it?!
GIESE639: I have no doubt the accredited Porsche racing shop (and Porsche mechanic) performed the repair perfectly. Yes, he said he has the price down due to the number of repairs they have performed in recent months.
A Porsche mechanic told me yesterday that Porsche fixed the IMS issue in 2003 and depending upon the manufacture date of the car it may not have the bearing issue at all. This was the first I'd ever heard that. Is there any truth to this? I thought the issue was completely resolved in the 997.1.
This guy has no clue.. 2003 was right I the middle of the worst IMS bearing problems. This is confirmed by the Class Action suit, which covered (some 2001) 2002-2005 engines.
Nothing was "fixed" in 2003.
I hope you don't allow this guy to work on your car. He is clearly less informed than most enthusiasts on these forums.
Guys, I've got an'03 C2 6-speed w/ 105k miles on it, IMS/RMS replaced by previous owner and it's run perfectly in the last 1.5 years/6k miles of my ownership. I've noticed in the last thousand miles or so a slight engine knock (sometimes) on throttle tip-in (only pump shell premium fuel), along with a bit more oil consumption (~3/4 quart redline synthetic every 1k miles or so) and just this last weekend I heard a modest tick-tick-tick from the engine. My guess is the latter *may* be a lifter collapse, but not sure. I've spoken to a couple independent shops and they, understandably, can't confirm, but are not particularly concerned unless there were more pronounced symptoms. It's a 'weekend car' and driven spiritedly, but not dogged by any means. Any ideas?
I would say those unconcerned shops that can't confirm what it is are places you should avoid. Find a good shop that knows water cooled Porsches. They'll know about bore scoring and how to diagnose it without removing the motor or some other silliness.
Recent thread on the subject with good info:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...king-help.html
While there are other things that can cause your symptoms, burning oil and ticking is commonly signs of scored cylinders. If that is the issue then you need the cylinders relined and new pistons, but there are also people that have successfully kept driving such cars for long periods of time after getting the diagnoses (but that's something that will be determined by your tolerance of risk after talking to your shop).
gnat, thanks for the advice.
I should have clarified: the car has not yet been in to be seen for these symptoms by a respected local shop -- they've so far offered a couple (of the typical) scenarios to the cause only. My next step is to get it in to be properly diagnosed in the flesh. Let's hope it's not scored cylinder(s)!
I currently have 65,000 miles on my 6-Speed, 2002 Carrera Cabriolet. For peace of mind I had the IMS changed at 48,000 miles. The car has been fantastic to own and drive for the past 14 years! The only real problem I've experienced is a couple of power window failures.
FWIW, another Porsche mechanic (not my own) mentioned that IMS failures were much more prevalent in Tip cars than manuals. Any truth to this?
Here's a couple of recent shots of my machine taken on CA Highway 1 in Pescadero. LOTS of top down days where I live!
IMG_6056_zpsfn7wwpqh.jpg
IMG_6057_zps3vwfwq05.jpg
Bill
2004 C2 3.6 tiptronic 55k km Right hand drive made for Australia - LN IMS Solution (sleeve bearing with its own oil feed) installed. I'm the 3rd owner, not tracked so I was told. So far do good
Mine is an '02 Cab with 37K miles. Bought it in August. I don't think the IMS bearing was touched and it was not mentioned in the transaction. So I'm gonna get it done before I put her away for the winter. My dealer, Paul Miller Porsche in Parsippany NJ wants to quote me on the LN bearing. I already have a quote on the IMS Solution from another Porsche specialty shop in the area. Is there a preference on which replacement bearing is the best one?
In my opinion, other than cost considerations, the IMS Solution is best...but I would want a certified installer to do the work. You can check who the certified installers by going to the IMS Solution website.
Thanks, the local specialty shop is a certified installer. I'm probably going with them, I was at the dealer yesterday and they wanted a chance to quote, but they use the LN version. That's why I was asking. Thanks for the confirmation of what my gut thought.
Without a doubt it would be the IMS solution, as it is a permanent solution (pun intended) vs. the standard LN bearing which still needs to be replaced at certain point in the future, as it is considers a serviceable item.
The answer is, it depends on how long you plan to keep it. The bearing replacement is considered a maintenance item that you should plan on replacing with each clutch job (or X number of years, whichever comes first), but it's far cheaper in the short term. The IMS Solution is considered to be a permanent fix, but is much more costly.
Well my thought is to keep this one a long time. Been a lifetime desire to own a 911 and I finally got one. I'm in love and I tend to keep things I like a long time. (Married 40 years LOL). So I think i'll stay with The Solution and do it once. Just the lack of anxiety should be worth the cost.
2000 Carrera 68k mi. Build date 2/21/2000.
Original double-row bearing was in perfect condition, replaced with EPS roller bearing kit and oil pump modification.
The IMS Solution turns out to be very expensive and though that's what I'd prefer the cost is just too much fior my wallet. So instead I'm going for the LN Ceramic bearing from a local Porsche Specialist who says they've done hundreds with 0 failures so far. That's good enough for me. I spoke with one of their clients and I'm confident this is a good alternative for me at about 1/3 the cost of The Solution. Wish me luck please!
Hundreds? Only one shop outside of Flat 6 Innovations has done more than 100 of these retrofit procedures, and thats Callas Rennsport in California.
If they've done "hundreds" they certainly haven't registered them.
PM me the name of this shop, this must be researched.
Labor for install of Solution or LN Ceramic should be about the same. Solution part is about $1725 so you're getting the LN Ceramic bearing for about $575 - is that correct?
So I'm not 100% sure that this guy's labor is the amount you quoted, I was given a total cost quote part and labor included. I bring no it in next week. I can always back out when I get there if I'm spooked but the reviews on the place and the owners is really good, they were even recommended by the local Porsche dealer so I'm giving them a try. I will report back after I meet them and again if I decide to move forward with the project.
Why not hold off on the preventative maintenance (IMSS) until you can afford it? You'll have to replace the retrofit bearing down the road whereas the IMSS is a permanent, non-wear part. It's designed to last the life of the engine.
1.7k today then another 1.7k in a few years + small risk of the bearing giving out (7-20k fix @ x% risk) =
3.4k for 2 retrofits + unknown risk of engine failure
versus
3.5k when you can afford it + eliminate risk of IMSb giving out + no replacement down the road =
3.5k for 1 IMSS install + eliminate IMS risk
If you truly understand risk I don't see how you can affirmatively choose the former.
I hear you Tony. I'm 63, the car is 15. In 6 years when the other bearing needs replacing I will be pushing 70 and the car will be over 20 and probably not worth much since the 996 is so "loved" by the community. So I believe I'm looking at 2.3k now instead of 5.6k now (these are the actual quotes I received) for a product that has a good reputation and a length of service that should suffice for the remainder of my ownership of this vehicle.
fair enough - congrats on the car
5.6k sounds absurd for the job (unless it includes a bunch of other work). The part is 1.7k and requires a tranny drop. Before abandoning the IMSS plan I'd introduce a bit of competition. A nice benefit of spending a little extra on the solution is resale in my view.
Whatever you decide, good luck and enjoy your Carrera-
177K or so miles on the orig IMSB on my 02 Targa. Have a ticking sound, and will scope the bottom of cylinders and send for oil analysis. If it's a lifter, OK, I will replace the lifters.
BUT that is IT: not going to bother with rebuilding the engine or preventive maintenance on the bearing.
Too many other better cars out there nowadays, 15 years younger, and updated, even in the area of performance.
Never get the money out of the car, and a car is a damn car -- 66 years old, 50 cars or so, and I have yet to find The Ultimate Car that I want to keep forever.
So, look for a good deal on this Targa if the engine blows. (Great interior - garaged its ENTIRE LIFE!)
Put in an LS engine (but this is a Tip).
I've read that the double row bearing was installed on some 2000 and 2001 cars. Can that be discovered by engine number? If so, has it been recorded here somewhere?
Engine number is a very poor resource for this. It is inaccurate more times than it is accurate in my experience.
Read more about this in my writings at www.imsretrofit.com
For any 2000, 2001, or 2005 engine, visual inspection of the IMS bearing flange is required to determine which IMSB the engine is fitted with.
Just brought mine in for an IMS installl. Going with LN ceramic bearing install. Car runs great, only 37K miles but since I bought it used I am doing preventive maintenance. Wish I could afford the IMS Solution but I don't know this is a permanent purchase so I'm going this route. Should be good for 6 years or 75K miles, more than I will likely need. Will report back when I get her back.
Once you pull the transmission you can see the flange. If it is a factory flange you will see one of 3 things:
1) A shallow "bowl" indicates a factory dual row.
2) A deep "bowl" with a small nut indicates the original single row that can be replaced with the motor still in the car.
3) A deep "bowl" with a large nut indicates the upgraded single row (in a 996 it means it got a replacement motor after the 997s were out) that
can not
be replaced without tearing down the motor.
Left is a single row flange and right is a dual:
When you start talking about the aftermarket replacements, I don't know how much you can tell from the flange.
Had Jake complete on 5/06/11 a deluxe preventive maintenance package including ceramic bearing install on 2002 Carrera at approximately 45k miles. Original bearing was in process of failing but had not failed at time of install. Now at 61.4K and car is running great. Only use DT40 oil and correct filter per Jake.Will install IMS Solution in coming months. Happy camper
If the double row bearings were installed on some '00 and '01 cars, I can't believe that Porsche doesn't have record of it. There must have been a reason for it other than having leftover double row bearings mixed in with single row in the parts bin and am not sure that they were interchangeable since the IMS itself was changed.
It's a shame that the tranny has to be removed in order to discover which bearing is in the car. As an owner of an '01 Cabriolet C4, it would be important information for me to have when considering an upgrade.
Sorry, thats reality. I find the factory VIN and engine code directives to be wrong all the time. I haven't even looked at them in the last 2 years because of this.
Remember, this was all supposed to be a moot point to the factory. These bearings were not supposed to fail, and in the early days I was told by everyone that the "IMS Bearing can't be removed, its a lifetime part". Since this was the case no one needed to take great care to ensure what engine had what bearing, and what car got what engine.
When I extracted the first bearing, and invented the tools this was all considered black magic, and for the next half- decade people would still proclaim that the bearing could not be extracted. People are dense, they listen to other people, and the manufacturer too often.
According to Porsche electronics catalog.
Up to engine # M 661 14164 = double row.
From engine# M 661 14165 = single row.
I got this info on pelican parts site. The engine # not vin #.
Recently changed mine for an LNE ceramic bearing. Mine was a single row bearing but in great shape so it may have been one that could have gone 200K miles with no issues but I feel better having done the upgrade. My car is an 02 Cabrio 2WD Carrera with 37K miles.
My 2001 had the clutch go. IMS was okay, however had a new one installed. Found metal shavings in oil pan.
Mechanic says it's bearings. Should I panic. Sugguesting a new/rebuilt engine.
Should I panic.
Have a 2001 Porsche 911 Carerra. Mechanic found metal (non metallic) shavings in oil pan. I only have 35.5K miles
IMS checked out okay. Should I panic! Is my engine going to blow up.
Very concerned.
CarlosM
How can anything metal be "non- metallic"? Maybe non- ferrous, but all metal is metallic.
So after finding metallic debris in the oil sump, they moved forward with an IMS Bearing retrofit?
Which IMS Retrofit kit was supplied for this job?
After the work was done, what instructions did they give to you for the interim, and extended future??
I meant to say non-ferrous, I went in for a busted Clutch and they suggested a IMS Retrofit. I agreed and asked the mechanic to find a oil change. After metal shavings were found, I said to only fix the clutch. They took the IMS off and could not put it back on and the mechanic went ahead with the retro-fit.
Mechanic said to be careful with the car and not to drive it at high RPMs. Mechanic has been fixing Porches for 40 years.
Just confused am not sure if I should dump the car. Sugguestions?
40 years, or 40 days, or 40 hours. Makes no difference to me. Guess who normally calls us with the most bazaar issues? Those 40 year guys. Guess who I can't beat this engine's operation into the brains of during hands on classes? Those 40 year guys. They are great with aircooled engines, but never became proficient with the M96, as a general rule.
Which IMS Retrofit product was installed? What is the name of this shop, and where are they located?
NEVER "dump" a car, karma is a real B-I-T-C-H and the next guy might hammer you in Court. I've seen a dozen of those cases in the past few years, and it gets ugly fast. Making your problem someone else's is never the proper choice.
GOOD DAY EVERY ONE , FIRST TIME TO THIS FORUM , I JUST PURCHASED 2005 911 CARRIER WITH 17,675 MILES ON THE CAR AND PUT ABOUT 1000 MILES (6 MONTHS) SINCE . THE DASHBOARD SAYS NEED SERVICE NOW , TWO DAYS AGO I TRY TO TAKE IT TO THE PORSCHE MECHANIC AND I TOLD THEM I NEED TO GET OIL CHANGE , UNFORTUNATELY THE MECHANIC TOLD ME IF MY CAR DID THE " IMS" INSPECTION , SO HE LOOK IF ANY STICKERS IN THE TRUNK AND SEE NOTHING . HE SAYS I SHOULD GO BACK TO THE PLACE AND ASK FOR IT BEFORE HE CAN DO THE OIL CHANGE .... ITS VERY ALARMING FROM MY SIDE AND VERY SAD AND DISAPPOINTED ABOUT TELLING ME ABOUT THE IMS ISSUES .. PS. HE TOLD ME IF NOT DONE TAKE THE CAR BACK OR SELL IT .. ITS MY DREAM CAR AND TOOK 30 YEARS FOR ME TO HAVE THIS CAR AND BROKE MY HEART ... THANKS ... HELP ...
Well the IMS issue is so well documented if you did not know this before buying then the seller has no reason to talk to you again. I was also unaware of the IMS "issue", in quotes because it may never happen and it may destroy your engine in a heartbeat. How does your car feel? Mine felt fine but I did an IMS replacement for peace of mind. They vary between $2000 and $5000 depending on which bearing and shop you choose. So, my recommendation is to find another Porsche qualified mechanic. Have them look at you oil and filter when changing it and see if there's metal in there. If so, you have issues and must address them. If not, then the choice is yours whether to stay with the factory bearing or replace it. IIRC the '05 has an improved bearing and suffers less failures but I'm sure others here will chime in with recommendations and ways to diagnose the health of your car.
2000 996 C4 with 106K. Took car into Franz Blam Racing for a good look over and a few routine maintenance items. While in the shop and after reading Flat6 Innovations "Pre-Failure Directives," I asked Franz to check the IMS. Good thing is did. Failure was imminent. I now have an expensive paper weight. Replaced with a LN Engineering IMS upgrade with ceramic bearings.
So, the original Bearing was found to be failing, and Franz performed the Retrofit anyway?
What special instructions did he provide you with for the future?
LOUD NOISES
-- yeah, but to be more specific, it is a Loud, "sounds like a bearing going bad, heart clenching, WTF-is-happening-can-it-be-what-I-have-feared-even-though-I-replaced-the-damn-thing??" noise........
Replacing IMS bearing on 2002 911 c4 tip convertible with 31k miles as preventative; a highly recommended indie shop who has done many replacements is replacing it with DOF system. I didnt want to go down this road bc it feels like i am bastardizing the car but got way too paranoid to enjoy it. (scaremongers got me) Hoping I am doing the right thing here. I would love to hear back from anyone who had this replacement. Feels like a no win situation.
Don't know IMS bearing status thats why replacing it as preventative but just voted 'NO" since car seems to run fine.
I have a '99 996 and did the LN dual row IMS replacement about 5 years ago. When I bought the bearing I recall it was called the solution or something similar. Since it was the solution I figured "one and done".
From what I am hearing now it's being considered a wear item to be replaced concurrently with the clutch. Is that the current status? Is their a mileage limit?
Maybe this has been discussed, but it seems that among many likely factors, one of them is the machining of the case for the IMS bearing. Could off center machining locate the bearing off center and impose unintended loading on the bearing leading to bearing wear, seal failure, grease washout them imminent demise of the bearing?
Did you buy the "Solution or the Retrofit"?
Copied from their website.
Its pretty simple to make the best decision in regard to choosing which form of IMS retrofit that you choose if you use the above factors as a guideline. With the IMS Retrofit being rated at 6 years/75,000 miles of service for the Classic Dual Row and Single Row Pro IMS bearings and requiring proactive replacement at that mileage point, people who want to keep their cars forever have been looking for an absolute solution to the IMS Bearing failure issues. If you want to keep the car forever then the IMS Solution provides a lifetime of service, because the wear components are removed. Using the Classic Single Row IMS & RND Roller bearing kits will give you a 4 yr/50,000 mile service interval.
The IMS Solution makes the most sense when rebuilding your engine. Jake Raby and his team at Flat 6 Innovations equip all their engines exclusively with the IMS Solution.
No way to repair it.
The spec that we have seen come into play most isn't the shaft (though it does happen) but more the bores that are machined into the crankcase to mount the IMS flange, and to hold the crankshaft carrier.
I have at least 10 blocks that look perfect and have no issues, but this dimension is out of my spec, and therefore the case is junk. Anyone else would use them, because they don't have the spec, nor do they have the proper tool to measure for it. Moreover, they don't know to look for it.
^this^ is interesting. Is there a way to re-machine those blocks - to make the bores for the carrier end and IMSB end larger, and then use an "insert" (that fixes the offset/runout) that will accept the IMS/IMSB ? Perhaps it's a lot of work, but considering what these blocks go for, might it be worthwhile? Obviously it would be a custom made per block sort of thing...
I'm sure this has been talked about before, but is there a certain milage point where the risk of failure actually goes down? I have over 91k on my 02 now and so far it hasn't failed. Probably a stupid theory...lol! I'm just trying to justify not doing it. I just figure if it hasn't gone by now that maybe I have a good one (if there is such a thing).
Any answer you're given is just a guess maybe a slightly informed guess at best. Swap it out when you get the clutch done, sooner if you want piece of mind. Single row are more prone to failure statistically compared to dual row. So based on that IMO get it done and drive happy 😊
After having zero orders for the Guardian units in 2015 or 2016 from distributors, I have pulled the plug on the Guardian. Cheap, copycat IMS Retrofit kits have killed it, since you can buy the bearing kit for 1/2 the Guardian cost. It didn't help when the switches used for the Guardian went up in price by triple, and they only had 20 in stock worldwide.
No one that I know of has any in stock. We will keep supporting the thousands of units that are out there, and we do have spare parts available to do this, but don't expect to ever see another kit produced.
No other reports. We are making our annual run of sensors now, they will be finished at the end of January.
Jake, so this^^ post you made a few hours earlier is not true?
Absolutely not.. Note that I said "run of sensors", not systems.
These sensors are used for much more than the M96 engine/ IMS Guardian. We make a run of sensors annually for replacements, and for other applications outside the Porsche world.
The IMS Guardian systems won't be made again until I receive orders for a 500 piece run; which probably will never happen again. I refuse to sell things directly, as well. How I hate that!
Thanks for all the info on this thread. I am likely going to finalize a purchase in the next week of a 2000 911 coupe with tiptronic. 33k miles. Original IMSB. It seems ideal to do an IMS retrofit as this is a lifetime solution. I hope to keep the car a long time... if it's super expensive I'll go another route, which from what I gather, is a ceramic bearing? I live in central Connecticut... can anyone recommend a shop in CT they have used that can competently do either option? If I do purchase my plan is to drive the car for a bit (say 3k miles or less) and then get the IMSB addressed. Is that ok or should I immediately have the IMSB addressed? Will a Porsche dealer be able to provide a IMSB retrofit or will they only offer other solutions?
Also there are very few shops that are approved by Jake. So if you decide on the IMS Solution, make sure you deal with an approved shop or Jake directly. Other shops do retrofits. I, myself, decided on the LN Ceramic bearing but there are now many choices.
what is jake's username/contact info? Is there a list of approved shops anywhere?
What is the lifetime of a retrofit LN... 75k miles?
because the car is an auto does that close certain IMSB solution options?
Is there any member living in Connecticut who can recommend a shop???
When I do get the car i understand that there are people who have had no issues with their IMS at high mileage... if you're me in this situation how long do you wait to address the issue... is this a do immediately item or can I enjoy the car a little while before addressing.
How long does this work take... I've seen 18 hours of labor... is that how long it actually takes or what is charged?
Anestheticg,
There is so much information on the questions you are asking. I would do a few searches on IMS Bearing. You will have about 10 hours of reading, some of it will be interesting and in the end you will know much more. However, it might seem like a typical oil thread. No wrong or right answers but you will be able to develop your own strategy that fits your budget and risk level. You will also learn how to drive you car and maintain your oil (check oil filter and magnetic drain plug) so that you are at least doing things that can help your IMSB survive longer.
Btw, I live in Hamden, CT. I know "My Garage" in Naugatuck, Ct have been working on 911s for a long time. I have had work done to my M3 there and they are pretty good. Once my clutch needs work, I'll have this shop do the whole deal, AOS, IMSB, RMS, clutch....
I doubt any dealer will install any aftermarket parts...IMSB, search and read, read, read or you'll be flogged for asking the question!
PS
I'm in the same boat as you, good luck with your purchase.
Here in SLC I was offered a quote on an LNE retrofit from a Porsche Dealership ($2700), but went with a certified IMS solution shop in Colorado for my 996. Good thing as the tech did some good work to refresh peripherals, and that dealership missed an oil cooler leak during my PPI. Now +6k miles since the servicing and all is well
My Porsche dealer suggested I install an aftermarket IMS bearing - they just won't warranty it. I don't believe there is a Porsche part for replacement...at least none that my dealer suggested. I ended up getting a certified installer to do the IMS Solution for me - couldn't be more pleased.
how much roughly was the IMS solution? I've looked at the website and the closest installer they have on the site is around 450 miles from me (Maine) I'm in CT so that's kind of a deterrent. Driving the car Monday and will check out the manufacture date... hopefully it's early 2000 and as I've read on this forum models in early 2000 possibly has the dual row bearing... fingers crossed. If I end up buying the car, which is highly likely, I'm going to drive it for a while and eventually I'll probably have a ceramic replacement fitted. The car is priced right so I feel like that is a good solution to get peace of mine for a while before having to do it again or selling for car in the future.
About $1,800 for the parts + 13 hours of labor (slightly more for a tip). Most folks have other work done at the same time and save on labor for RMS, clutch and AOS.
Yup my Porsche dealer offered to do an IMS replacement with an LN ceramic bearing but they were quite a lot higher for labor than my local shop. I ended up spending less including a few other upgrades going with the local shop who has an impeccable record. BTW I'm in Northern NJ.
nice, there's a UOA thread that some helpful people comment on. Feel free to post there for feedback:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post13810498
2001 C4 71000 miles. The car is new to me and no service records are available. Believed to have the original IMSB. Scheduled for replacement in April when it comes out of winter storage.
Good plan for peace of mind, though your car may have the dual bearing original IMS which has proven to be quite durable. Which replacement bearing are you planning? IMS replacement or The Solution?
You are way ahead of me on this. I haven't really researched the options yet. I was largely planning to rely on the advice of my mechanic at European auto sport in Gardiner Maine. They have a very good reputation and I'll probably use whatever they are most comfortable with. Being without any service record, I wonder, too, if they may get in there and find the bearing has already been replaced. Is there a consensus on the forum?
Look on the door jambs and the trunk lid to see if there happens to be a "LN" sticker. This would indicate that it has already been replaced, well if they used an LN bearing and put the sticker on anyway.
As you can see there are many opinions on this thread and they are all valid. On mine I did the LN double row ceramic bearing and clutch when I got it just for piece of mind. I would have done the "Solution" but no one in my area did them and I did not feel like shipping the car off to get it done. If you have that option I would recommend it but really have the feeling the whole IMS issue is a crap shoot at best. Yes your odds are good but are not guaranteed.
I think this was directed at me? Eventually I will do a replacement. "The solution" isn't practical for me as the nearest shop is around 375 miles from me. I plan to drive it for a bit and feel pretty good about it given it should have dual row IMSB (12/99 build date). Once it gets time for some maintenance will get new seats, bearing, and whatever else.
I had posted prior regarding my 2000 996 Carrera and the fact I had no issues but I was living/driving in Europe where the IMS does not seem to be as big a problem. Upon my return to the U.S. and now having to drive extremely slow (in comparison) I began to think of the IMS. Subsequently, at 108,000+ I decided to have it replaced. There was no indication of failure but I am still convinced the driving habits/conditions in the U.S. contributes to the failures.
OK, I've done some research and the shop I use (in Gardiner) is certified for "The Solution" so I suspect that is what they will recommend. Since I'm at 71000 miles and have the Tiptronic I'll ask them about other options and we'll see what they say.
2000 C4 Cabriolet. For peace of mind I had mine replaced last year at 100,000Km by Flat 06 in Cagnes sur Mer. The cost for the replacement with a ceramic bearing, new RMS and oil and filter change was 1800 euros and I had the car back the same evening. I cut the old bearing open. It was dry with just granulated lube/carbon remaining. Wear was appearing, probably no more than another 4 or 5,000Km and BANG! I really feel that I dodged a bullet there. Some posters here seem to be pinning their hopes on double row bearings... take a look at mine.
Hey - I did a similar path to you. Bought a C2 with 71k miles and had a certified shop install the solution. It's understood that 71k miles is a little long in the tooth to pay for the IMSS but my plan is to drive this car a lot of miles out west & enjoy it until a rebuild is needed. Now at 81k miles and she purrs as a healthy m96 should
GL with your adventure-
Is it possible to take more detailed photos of the races and *****? I'm certainly seeing discoloration from the oil but I'm not seeing any spalling or anything.. but to be fair my monitor on my tablet sucks.
I am sorry, I threw the bearing out, this is the best photo of the race that I have. The black specs you can see in the original photo are remains of the lube, nothing resembling grease remained. The inside of the seals are covered in that muck. You can see a piece of the bearing cage is missing. Many of the ***** were slightly pitted as were the races. The bearing was completely dry with no sign of crankcase oil ingress. It would not have lasted much longer.
Classic photos of a dual row IMSB. If this one would have been a single row bearing, it would have completely failed. This bearing is at stage 3 failure, and the single row pretty much skips that stage and goes straight to stage 4, which is the end of the line.
I see corrosive wear in this one, for sure... It must have had some long oil service intervals sometime in it's life.
Looks like it was barely caught in time, BUT you still need to ensure that the oil system isn't debris laden. Employ a spin on filter, with filter mag, magnetic drain plug, and a few very short oil service intervals, backed up with used oil analysis to see how much iron remains in the engine.
This one would be a tough call for me if a Certified Installer was doing the work. I'd likely down the job, and DQ it, but I'd need to see the parts and an oil sample first before making that call.
car is in the shop for IMS. Around $2500 (tiptronic). Going to get the AOS done along with whatever else (coils, belts, etc) and new tires. Going to get a LN bearing. Even though the car has 378xx miles given it hasn't been driven much in 17 years I didn't want to risk engine failure and what would be a loss of the car (doesn't make sense to get a new engine or engine swap). Hopefully after this wallet hit she's good to go to be driven hard for a bit. Looking forward to getting her out in limerock park for some DE come spring/summer
My exact conclusion. I changed my original bearing at 36,500 miles for an LN ceramic bearing from a well regarded local shop. For my planned use of the car I expect this to last the life of the car. Good Luck and have fun at one of my favorite tracks, Limerock Park.
Always remember that the products (with the exception of the IMS Solution) all have a "recommended time in service" as well as mileage for being serviced. This means that while you may not ever see the 50-75K miles the components are rated for, you can "time out" the product as well.
If you plan to go a very long time (calendar time) with a product, shorten the service intervals and approach with care. Corrosive wear is the thing to avoid, so watching TBN levels in the oil will help with that more than anything.
Hey Jake, I have put in a magnetic drain plug and I plan to change oil twice a year, before summer and before winter. I have done this with my last 2 Corvettes with low mileage and almost no winter mileage with great success. Is this a good schedule in your mind? Of course, I change the oil filter as well.
This is the minimum that the oil should be serviced, if you are one of my customers. Always determine the oil service interval that your engine needs through used oil analysis.
I find that some of my customers could go longer than 6 months on an oil service, while others with the exact same car, and the same engine can't make it more than 4-5 months without the oil losing TBN, or having high TAN.
If you are going to ask the bearing to live longer than the recommended service interval in calendar time, then you'll need to do a little bit more.
The less it's driven and the less frequent the oil is changed (even though the miles don't justify frequent oil changes) - the more the bearing is likely to fail. Low mileage and any periods of storage appear to be just as much a contributing factor as high mileage.
My dual-row IMS failed at 75k. It was in the "3rd stage of failure" as Mr. Raby described above, so it was just barely caught before destroying the engine. Did a full teardown, but the internals looked (and measured) perfect. Mobil1 0W40 might not be the best possible oil for our car, but it did a pretty spectacular job for 75k miles on mine. The piston rings even still had most of the black coating.
this is why I opted to do the IMSB. As others have said it's a crap shoot. Dual row didn't buy my much insurance. Just have to eat the cost which is worth it for peace of mind. Changing our AOS as well.
It's hard to believe that bearing didn't get any engine oil inside. Seems like sitting in oil while stopped would eventually result in oil seeping past the seal.
Looks to me like the factory lube was very much compromised by oil, which is what JR was referencing above if I'm not mistaken. Removal of lube and subsequent lack of proper lubrication compromising the operating condition of the bearing. Chronically low TBN = chemical deconstruction of certain vulnerable internals, like the ball bearing imsb.
'99 C2 convertible, no problem w/ IMS. I had to replace the transmission at 69659 miles, so I had the dealer install the LN ceramic dual row for peace of mind.
2000 C2 with a 12/99 build date. I was thinking of gambling and just leaving the IMS alone given it was a dual row but because the car has just barely 38k miles I decided to get it done while getting other work done as well. Here is the dual row that came out. The mechanic said that there was some oil leaking from the back seal.
IMG_9794.jpg
IMG_9793.jpg
IMG_9792.jpg
IMG_9791.jpg
Add me to the failure list... bought a 2000 996 30k miles in 2015 (Garage Queen). Put 20k miles on it; multiple oil changes; filter busted each time -- no metal; Clutch replacement at 50k miles; IMS Solution ordered (keeping the car); Oil changed about 5k ago -- drained oil -- METAL. I think I caught it in time. Pulling the bearing next week. IMS soltuion arrives Tuesday.
I've read about several mechanics installing the IMS Solution after metal has been found in the oil. At that point, according to LNE, it's too late. They say about inspecting the filter that "if ANY debris is present, the procedure must be aborted." They go on to reiterate this in all capital letters. See
http://imsretrofit.com/pre-procedure-qualification/
.
Example of what? You said "I've read about several mechanics installing the IMS Solution". Post #735 doesn't reference the IMS Solution - entirely different product than the Retrofit. A "certified" shop will not install the IMS Solution if the pre-qual fails - metal in the filter is a fail. Here's some info on certified installers:
http://theimssolution.com/certified-installers/
What is the "time" (not mileage) life expectancy of a LN ceramic IMSB? I've read all or most but don't recall a live span based on timeline and not mileage.
Hate to say this but once there's metal, they can trap in places only a full tear down can clean up. Have you checked the inside of the sump and see if there are more debris? Despite a new bearing, the lurkering debris can come back and haunt you later.
So... I pulled the bearing; put the flange off to the side; and looked over the bearing and it looked good! I am thinking... where the heck did those flakes come from... nothing from the bearing... tore it apart... looked good inside... damn! No smoking gun... no root cause. Three days later... I thought about the flange.. hmm. Nah.. the bearing internals or race fails, right? Nah... take a look at the photo... Well, that metal went somewhere!
So I think I caught this a just a few short miles before catastrophic failure!
Thats not a wear surface. Looks to be a less than perfect flange casting. I don't see any debris generation from what the pic shows. That's a very early flange, hence the O ring instead of the triple lipped seal.
Have you seen that type of imperfection before? If it didn't come from there I am at a loss. Could be something else internal. My option is now is to put it all back together... and check the filter every couple thousand miles. Thoughts?
1998 C2 133000km (80kmiles) IMS bearing replaced with LN Engineering ceramic bearing together with clutch. Bearing came out clean, no issues.
Inspected the bearing today, pulled the seal. The grease was gone, it was lubricated only by engine oil. Bearing itself was still perfectly smooth. Glad I put the ceramic in without the seal, will be good for the rest of the car life.
Volkert
Repair complete. New Clutch/Flywheel. IMS Soltion installed. I have about 500 miles on it now. One oil change, dropped the pan again, added a deep sump kit -- no metal in the Pan. Changed the oil filter twice since the oil change. Some, ever so slight bits. The last filter inspection hard to notice at all. I will change the oil once more but prognosis is good, I think.
One thing I have noticed is the car is MUCH smoother now. idles solid, accelerates smoothly... could be the IMS tube empty or the dual mass... either way it is a great improvement.
I hear that all the time from IMS Solution owners... I never make the claim that its the reason for the smooth running, though I know what I've measured from test engines on the rough running index, and vibration meters with the same engine fitted with different bearings, back to back.
Sold my 2003 C4s with 120km on it all original IMS bearing. I am in the boat of preferring a stock car not one that has been refit.
Hope the new owner is as lucky with the car it was flawless for me.
2001 C4 Cab
63,395 miles took it to Indy and got the LN Retrofit and a bunch of other work done. Upon examination, Indy said there were no issues with the stock IMS bearing. Had to replace one scavenge pump as it was "gritty" upon inspection. There was ferrous metal in the oil filter which sent me down this road but that is the subject for another thread post and it apparently wan't RMS related.
Cheers,
Debo sends.
So, debris was found in the oil filter and oil, and the scavenge pump was gritty from debris, and the IMS was still Retrofitted? How did they justify this vehicle to be qualified for an IMS Retrofit?
2003 C4, 99000km - still running original bearings.
I do think I will get it replaced in the near future - I will just sleep better, one less thing to worry about.
I was recently quoted a price of $20K for a good used 996 motor. For that kind of money, I could buy the whole car.
What are you looking to spend for the used motor?
20k?? Im looking at motors from 5 to 7.5k with 2 month warranty. 50 to 80k miles.
I'll do my own labor.
I can order a motor freshly built from vertex for 10k
1999 C2 6-speed coupe 89,400 miles. A low option car, but it came with the Sport Chassis options (014, 030, etc). I am the third owner. Original owner was Michelin Research and Development. Car spent first 42,000 miles of its life with a roll cage and GT3 Euro seats. I am sure it was only driven to church on Sundays by a little old lady. Roll cage was removed before second owner bought it, but seats are still installed. As far as I can tell, it still has its original bearing. Second owner believes the clutch was replaced before he bought it, but he had no documentation. Looking under the car, it doesn't look like the engine has ever been removed. Engine number leads me to believe it is the original engine. Car was built March 1998 and engine is a low serial number 1998 build. It runs great and I really enjoy it.
Question:
My indy mechanic who has a lifetime of racing and mechanic experience with Porsches, told me that IMS failures are much more prevalent in cars with TipTronic trannies.
Is that true? If so, is it because there are more Porsches with Tip than Manual trannies?
Thoughts?
Bill
One can't make this connection... Period. The vast majority of these cars are manuals, and we see an qual percentage of manual and tiptronic engine failures based on production numbers. Gearbox doesn't matter at all.
Most of his lifetime of experience was probably spent with aircooled engines, and doesn't pertain to this topic. I say that, because my 20 years of aircooled experience doesn't help me at all with the M96 engines, or anything newer, either. Often aircooled experience creates hurdles for the person working with the M96 engine, I know, as I lived through the same thing many moons ago.
The technicians that attend my classes, and fight the hardest with the M96, are those with a lifetime of experience that gets in their way of learning, adapting, and evolving. I have had over 1400 attendees in my classes over the years, and can state this with great confidence.
Most of the more respected Porsche mechanics conclude the infamous IMS failure in the 996 and 997.1 are due to two primary reasons - weak bearing design and oil starvation. There has been no valid evidence to point to the transmission as being a part of the equation.
IMHO, this is based on your indy's limited experience with the cars he's dealt with and if my memory serves me correctly, the tiptronic transmission only made up a small percentage of cars in the 996/997.1 generation of the 911.
Either my Indy told me, or perhaps I read it somewhere, that the Tip cars have a higher failure rate because they are typically run up only to 3,000 RPM and no higher. And this relates to the "oil starvation" problem.... that the IMSB, after seal failure or unsealed replacement, gets more scattered/splashed oil at higher RPMs. Can you comment on that (possible) myth please Jake? Does running my Tip car periodically up to redline in 2nd or 3rd, does this help in lubing an IMSB that doesn't have seals?
Thank you!
It's been observed on this thread that 996s driven harder tend to have a lower IMSB failure rate than those driven gently. Splashed oil lubricating the IMSB is consistent with this theory.
I drive tiptronic cars like manuals. I always control the shifting myself, even in my own 993 Tiptronic.
Remember that the IMSB was designed to have permanent lubrication. The issue with the bearings is not, and has NEVER been related to oil starvation. The major issue comes from the bearing being overloaded.
Everyone is an expert on these topics, even the guy sitting in his "library" shooting videos on topics about things he has no idea about, and has probably only done once.
The bearing needs surface speed to unload the *****, so the tiptronic when driven in automatic mode does not favor this.
People keep looking for the best car to buy/ own that won;t have a bearing issue. They make up wild and crazy stories and listen to people that no less than they do on the topic whole trying to gain the information that they want to hear.
Buy the damn car, and omit the ball bearing with an IMS Solution. Spend the money once, and be done with it, then it won't make a single damn difference how the car is driven. Can't afford that? Don;t want to spend that money? Then buy a freaking Miata.
And for someone like me looking at a Tip C2 that wants the Salution, can afford it but has no one within my state of Hawaii certified to put one in...Jake, need a little vacation?
I can only work in my world... take me away from here, and I get all confused!
The local dealer we work with has a 996 tiptronic that needs an engine... buy that, and I'll build you what you need, then ship it to Hawaii. No problem. That solves it all.
Let a friend drive my 996 last fall. Guidance before we took off "keep the car between 3k and 5k, it's already warm." Guidance after letting him shift a few times "keep the car between 3k and 5k, it's not a Honda & needs to spin." I don't know why but people love to lug the sh*t out of their motors.
Wow, Jake maybe I was high on meds at the time, but from reading the many technical articles from sources like LN, insufficient lubrication of the IMSB was a top contributing factor to failure. Maybe "oil starvation" is
not
the best term to use in reference to the IMS problem?
Just had my IMS Bearing replaced in my 2002 996 C2 - 6 Speed
Car had low 28,300 miles. Original bearing was in excellent condition (so much for the low mileage scare tactics).
Replaced it with LNE Single Row Pro. Also replaced the clutch, RMS, Water Pump, and AOS at the same time and had plugs and coils changed. My vehicle is almost like new now so I hope I can drive it for a long while with just oil changes and brake pad swaps.
I probably paid for a service that was not needed for a few years but possibly will enjoy my car more now.
I had a lot of questions whether or not changing a perfectly good bearing is necessary or introduces more risk. As they say better is sometimes the enemy of good. I will be very upset if my LNE bearing should fail given the original was in perfect shape and the shop used all of LNEs tools and procedures.
Would an oil analysis and a inspection the oil filter and pan not have been the tests done to make the decision in regards to changing the bearing now at so few miles vs later?
I was in a similar situation. Bought a 2000 C2 tip with 34xxx miles and swapped out the bearing immediately. Original IMSB came out intact(early dual row). I felt too that maybe I jumped the gun but had other work done at the same time like you. Was it premature? Maybe but I figured if I didn't do it and had a IMSB failure I would feel like an idiot so be happy in your decision. Drive the hell out of it
+1. It's not like these cars are cheap to begin with. If you're going to put 50-100k on one it's worth it to install the solution & be done with it. If you get a chance to rebuild down the road, you can reuse the solution for the rebuild assuming no detonation event inside.
Most of those articles I wrote.
The issue is the seal failing, and engine oil washing the permanent lubrication away.
Lubrication "starvation" was never brought up till a person that has no idea what he is talking about had to invent a problem for his "product" (that I developed first in 2007 and is actually covered by US Patent 9,416,697) to "solve".
Thats what happens when you are a practical Engineer and lose your job, and then copy someone's idea from a forum.
Got my 2001 C4, 61K miles. LN bearing done at Performance Auto in Malvern, PA. Photo of the bearing below. No issues with the bearing. Got a clutch, RMS ( which had failed ), coolant tank, and A/O separator done. Glad to have the bearing done. For the 110+/- miles I drove it, I was worried the entire time.
Doing some 40K maintenance on my C4S last week. This one was fine. I hesitate to say more for fear of being reprimanded by the being, perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the (IMS) universe.
184495
Had mine done (LN kit) along with RMS, clutch, and a few small other small things. '03 C2, Bought the car with 70k less than a month ago. Bearing and housing look good. I do feel better now that it's done. I know the failure rate is low. But I plan on keeping this machine for a long while. I still have a smile on my face from my morning canyon rip
I would post a picture, but see above. Looks just like that..
Just did my 2001 986s with 40k miles using LN Single Row Pro. Bearing was fine but full of engine oil. Did RMS also (leaking badly). Followed the LN instructions which are good but I learned a few things along the way that are a bit unclear or not in the docs.
If anyone needs to rent the LN Faultless/IMS Pro tools and Factory RMS installer tool - I now have those. PM me.
It's this little gem. The PTFE seals need to be held in place for several hours to seat properly. This tool does that in addition to setting the correct depth and alignment to the crank.
Can anyone verify this? My car has a replacement engine from Porsche. The PO took it to have a new bearing installed but they said at the dealer (after taking the trans off) that it had the updated bearing. I'm not worried about failure, I'm just curious.
Only by seeing the flange. And if it was not a complete engine replacement, where you would get the larger 2006-2008 bearing, it is very likely to be a new single row
Yes it's a very high quality copy of the factory RMS tool and $500. I'm willing to rent to help recoupe my cost on it - PM me. Also have all the LN IMS tools including the faultless. They all worked great and I have several thousand miles on my 986 fix.
What year was it installed? You still cannot tell for certain unless you see it with your own (or your mechanic's) eyes. Did they take a picture at the dealer? Since they did not offer to replace it, it is likely you have the 2006-2008 bearing. Sadly, this still fails.
Unfortunately I don't know when it was installed or at what mileage. The PO didn't even know it had a replacement engine so I found that out myself. I'm not worried about it failing, I really was just curious. I'll just check it when it's time to do the clutch.
2001 Carrera 4 Cabrio with 105k miles. Had RMS leak, decided to have LN Engineering IMS installed as well as a new clutch since my mechanic was already in there (among other things). Original bearing was still fine at 105k.
Quite the opposite. I could barely afford to change the oil last time I did it. A 911 is something I probably shouldn't own, but the kids and I are having a blast. I have a cheaper car that I can drive if death were to strike.
Well, one reason (I think) the percentage reported failing is dropping is because people fix their IMS before they fail. I have been watching the 997 forum and there the percentage is creeping up, now above 6%. Which is an amazing high number given the fact that 997.2 have a different engine with no IMS and the S and later Mk.1 all have the bigger bearing which should have a similar failure rate as the double bearing....
I know the percentage has nothing scientific behind it but it is an indication with both polls over 1000.
66k miles on a 1999 C2 with original IMS and RMS. No leaks, no noises, no issues. Frequent oil changes at very short intervals (averaging 1,500 miles) has likely been a big help.
I own 2 996's
My First Love 2003 Targa, Aero - 124K miles, Never any issues
2004 996 Cab - 102K miles - simply perfect, I drive both all year round, Winter (Snow Tires)
My son has been driving the Targa, more than I but I drive it once a month. To me, they are best best cars to own, if it works, why mess with it!
This so called "Poll" should be taken down by the Rennlist admins because it breaks at least 3 common rules for evidence gathering and unfortunately, can not be taken serious.
1. The poll should have a time limit. If it's an active on-going poll, then users should be able to change their vote and/or delete when they sell their cars. Wonder how many users that voted "No IMS failure" only to experience it AFTER their vote? The poll should reset every year. The poll is approaching 5 years old with no resampling!
2. There is no way to guarantee voters are legitimate 996 owners. Anyone can sign up for RL (multiple times) and vote over and over. This is not totally fool proof, but one way to minimize this error is to require the S/N section in the VIN# be entered with each RL account. Proof of ownership would be a huge help, but I'm sure the privacy nuts would bonkers.
3. The sampling size is too small to warrant any validity. 175,262 Porsche 996 cars were made. See the problem here? The margin of error is shooting out the roof.
Well, I posted much earlier on that mine was fine.
That never changed, it was fine all the way up till my car suffered
D-chunk about 14 months ago.
I guess now it can't be used in this poll.
The poll is statistically a joke but could give some indication if entries are managed. It is weird lately that all posts are positive (ie. No issue with IMS) but the poll is going more negative. You'd think if your IMSB failed, you'd mention it in the thread. I also think unless controlled and more specific (engine type), OEM bearing or retrofit the outcome is still pretty useless. So agree with you there.
Then to top it off, the causes for failure can be many and often ANY failure is caused by the IMSB according to whoever (indy or dealer) is picking up the car. It would be interesting anyway to track how many IMSB failures happened after somebody just bought the car. Really sad, or should I write criminal?
I collect data in our engine failure logs when we receive calls about failures. The vast majority of those who call us have never heard of Rennlist, and don't know what it is.
Maybe if they did, they would have performed an IMS Retrofit, and they wouldn't have ended up as a statistic.
Also just changed out IMS, AOS, RMS, clutch, and a few other bits at 27,000 miles. IMS was a dual row and still in good shape with very minimal play. Cest la vie.
i am a proud owner of a 1999 996 C4 Roadster with 151.000 kilometers and original IMSB. I learned that all mechanics, I asked for a replacement, recommended do not touch a well working 996.
'99 at 100K. IMS was replaced at 81K weeks before I bought the car when one of the heads was replaced due to an intermix issue. I totally expected the car to go BOOM for the first year I owned it. 3 years/ ~19K miles later and after way more fun than I paid for, it runs like a top! I did add an X51 oil pan and pump, which made a huge difference in oil pressure on long sweeping turns.
Vario-cam engines don't like thicker oils. My 2002 ran on 0w-40 and the bearing was fine at 90k. The original bearing is sealed. Porsche never approved 10w-�. Too much Zddp can harm your catalytic converter.
2003 C4 Tip, sold at 858xx kms, would be on its original IMS. I detected a layer of oil at the area between engine and gearbox from about 3 years ago. Didn't know whether that was from RMS or IMS. To know for sure I'd have to drop engine and gearbox and do all of the preventative maintenance that would have come up to $$$. I had spin-on oil adapter with magnetic sump plug. Both were checked at oil change time and were always clean.
Hi, could be different approvals in different territories.
I've got "Oils of viscosity 0W-40, 5w-40, 10w-40 and higher if they comply the ACEA A3 specification" in my Drivers Manual WKD 996 020 03 4/02.
I've been aware of the potential for cat damage but my 928 must have burnt 20 litres of oil and the cats are still fine.
I'm partly thinking a higher quality oil will help protect the bores. Also a bit sceptical thinking they may err towards thinner oils as a package to enable them to advertise better fuel economy.
Actually my 1986 Porsche 928 with 180K miles has been running on 20w-50 Dyno oil in California because it's a different engine than 996 and still has the original cats. 928 cats are not that sensitive compared to others and small amount of zddp helps the engine. Vario-cam plus engines are oil grade sensitive and if you live in a cold climate 10w-50 is a no no. Just pour some 10w-50 or 20w-50 in a cup and put it in the freezer. You'll get a yellow tar.
Being new here, I'll post to help track our cause...
1999 (7/98 build) C2, No failure of Dual row IMSB, but preemptively replaced with LN at 34,000 miles in 2016.
Original IMSB still sealed and showed no signs of wear when removed.
This info is all based on records and my speaking to the tech that did the IMS last year. The car was a very low mile car with partial service records, so I don't know how it was driven and if there were more oil changes than what the car fax shows.
2002 Targa - Engine was replaced by Porsche at 55 000km due to crankshaft out of spec in 2005 with a remanufactured M96 motor. At least that's what the records say. I'm sure you all have heard that that was during that period when the rear mains were leaking a lot and Porsche just replaced the engines instead of fixing them. I bought it at 72 000km and now it's at 128000km and runs perfectly. Im hoping that the remanufactured motor in 2005 had all the issues addressed. I still hold my breath everytime I cut open the oil filter though.
Just bought a 2002 Gen 2 996 C2 with 85k miles. No problems so far. Paperwork states that no signs of IMS problems, presumably no bits of seal in the oil change.
2003 C4s with 99k on it's original IMSB. Car is bone dry underneath, no smoke at start up and an oil change last weekend revealed zero particles in the pan, on the magnetic drain plug or the the cut open oil filter.
This is an update to my 09-29-2014 posting...way down below.
At 81K miles (August, 2016), the original IMSB was replaced with the LNE Dual Row Pro. The original bearing was not leaking and it turned freely with no discernible play. At the same time, the clutch, AOS, RMS, DMF, clutch thrust bearing, one tensioner, and main input shaft seal were replaced. (The original DMF was definitely worn, and the input shaft was leaking.) I may have spent too much money/too soon, but it now drives like a new 911, and I sleep like a baby. Life is good.
relinuca
Has the failure rate data been broken down
by year
and type of
original
dual- or single-row bearings?
I've read that Porsche settled its lawsuit without necessity of repairing/replacing such bearings on pre-2001 cars, reporting that such failures were quite rare with dual-row bearings in the early cars, and the trouble is pretty much limited to later single-row bearings post-2001. I'm considering purchase of a 1999 car.
Are the original early-version dual row bearings still available? Price and source?
But what about the original factory double row bearing-
-is that or generic equivalent still available?
After all, Porsche litigation data said less than 1% of the early double row bearings were faulty, and looking at data on this thread seems to corroborate that such double row bearings have been found to be good, when replaced with expensive aftermarket units.
Granted, the aftermarket bearings have been well researched and developed,
but are they really necessary in the early 996 cars whose factory bearings historically seem OK?
-----------
PS: fwiw, I once rebuilt the alternator in a BMW 535i, replacing the bearings. Local auto parts stores quoted ~$26 for the main bearing, and ~$12 for the small one. Curious, I took the old bearings to a Case farm implement store, and they had the
exact same
bearings in stock for $6 and $2, respectively. Similar prices quoted at John Deere tractor dealership. These were not cheap Chinese knockoffs, but the exact same maker (Timkin, I think) with the exact same serial numbers. Farm equipment has to be pretty reliable, else Old McDonald doesn't get paid for this year's crop, so Case and Deere sell reliable stuff. Moral of the story: There
may
be excellent, high quality bearings suitable and sized for this application out there somewhere at very reasonable prices, we just need to find them.
From what I read, Porsche doesn't not sell OEM replacement IMS bearings.
And I agree with you, that the research seems to indicate that early `99 motors were less prone to problems. That's why I jumped on the `99 that I just bought. Oh, and when the PO had the bearing upgraded as a preventative measure, the tech who did the work said the OEM bearing looked great at 35k miles on a 17 year old engine (a combo that would presumably be hardest on the IMS). I spoke with him personally before buying the car.
As for buying cheaper versions of the part, sure, that would be nice. But at this point, $700 every 6 years for a dual row IMS is not that bad IMO.
No we don't, someone on here tried making their own bearing and installed it, it didn't work out.
Save your time and effort, this is an engine not an alternator.
Bought my '02 C2 Cab in October with 67,000 on the clock. I drove it home from NC, 1,000 miles, being very worried that the IMS would fail on the trip...it didn't. I immediately made an appointment to have the IMS changed along with the failing clutch and leaky RMS. The OEM IMS bearing looked brand new with no noticeable deterioration of the seals. IMS was replaced with the EPS version. The car is tucked away for the winter in my basement and cannot wait for spring to wring it out!
Bought my 03 C4S last week, Tip and little over 82k miles. IMS not replaced and no issues underneath or with exhaust. Still may upgrade, but haven't decided yet. This was a short-distance DD for the last few years so opening it up this past week has 'loosened it up' a tad, or it feels like it anyway. Will be changing oil at every 5k miles just in case, as I've read that's advised to do.
If it's been doing short trips i'd make sure the gearbox oil has been changed, I change at half the book distance and the oil comes out tired.
5k for engine oil could be slight overkill but see what you think at next change.
I will certainly add that to the list of things to check when I take it in for it's next service, in another 3k miles or so.
I'd just read from various sites and magazines that non-IMS replaced vehicles probably will have more longevity with a 5k service, but I know the book says 10k, so maybe if the next inspection comes out looking clean, I'll bump it up to 7k. I plan to only drive mine 2x a week or so.
That's what would make me sleep better at night, and what everything I've read in Excellence, Total911, this forum, etc. have said for a non-changed IMS bearing.
'03 3.6. 61k stock single row IMS. Zero play tight as a virgin. Lots of life left. Replaced today with LN Engineering IMS Pro Retrofit, single row ceramic bearing
Rather than rely on the statistic someone gave me that the failure rate for the 1999 M96 mated up to a tiptronic was .4%, I took the car to my long time shop to get an LN replacement. It was the best decision yet. My guy at the shop said I should defitnitely buy a lottery ticket this weekend. The IMS bearing was intact, but there is about 1/8" of play - the beginning of the end. Caught it just in time before any badness happened.
We found a few small chain guide chips in the pan, so we're doing upper guides and maybe new tensioners. New rear main seal too, just in case. AND and air/oil separator...preventative replacement I guess. At least the water pump had already been replaced!
Dodged a bullet with the IMS.
It sounds like this one should have failed pre- qualification.
Debris was found in the oil sump, along with what sounds like a Stage III bearing failure in process, yet the shop continued with the IMS Retrofit?
I am sure that LN Engineering will want to know what shop did this work. What was the shop's directives for you moving forward?
Perhaps I did not state the facts correctly. Before we start a witch hunt on my local shop, there was no pre-buy inspection. A cardinal sin, yes...but the price had all this factored in. This was elective surgery. There was no metal in the sump, just enough plastic to warrant checking the upper guides. The bearing housing is undamaged, so whatever the hell a Stage 3 failure is - it was not happening. The IMS had a little wobble. It's in the shop to get it replaced and the removal found that it was time. The new LN bearing should have arrived yesterday. My guy has done many, many LN fits. More than qualified.
SO....I am going to leave it at that. If you want more details, you can send a private message and I may be able to supply more details.
He wasn't referring to a "pre-buy inspection" but to a detailed qualification process installers are supposed to conduct before replacing the bearing. Not sure if this is the most current checklist or not:
http://imsretrofit.com/pre-procedure-qualification/
LN does not �qualify� installers. Their preferred installer program is a paid service.
Mr. Raby Certifies the IMS Solution Certified Installers. These shops are required to perform their work via a very specific code of conduct. The biggest issue that will lead to a Certified Installer losing their certification is poor judgment when executing Retrofit procedures. Retrofitting an engine that has debris laden oil, or an in- process bearing failure is strictly forbidden.
If this shop is a Certified Installer, I know what�s coming their way, and it will not be pretty. Second chances are not extended. Taking these sorts of risks puts the reputation of the Retrofit products in jeopardy, as nothing can live through debris laden oil.
Do do not regret posting. There are practices that can be carried out to lessen the chances of the new bearing being damaged by residual debris from the prior bearing. Had you not posted this would not have been known.
This does impact the product warranty. I�d recommend calling LN Engineering for directives.
You sir, are assuming a great deal. The checklist was followed....I asked...but I will not further participate in your 'trial by web' of an independent shop.
Good day.
I won't jump to any conclusions here. You may have dodged a bullet, but there are plenty of instances where an original bearing, even if not omitting debris or isn't completely failed, wouldn't be the only item that could disqualify an engine from having any procedure carried out. We commonly turn down cars to carry out jobs because there could be other problems that compromise the work or parts to be fitted. I don't have all the facts, so I'm not going to say that this is the case in your instance, but all parties need to go into this wide open and understand the consequences if something goes awry, as it has before, and then I'm the one to blame for making an inferior product.
If you can please can do the the favor of PM'ing me the shop doing the work, I would like to keep an eye out for your registration so I know which shop to expect it from. I would like to first hand see the bearing that came out (which is a normal part of our registration process). Likewise, if I don't receive the registration, I can reach out to you and let you know.
If the shop is a Preferred Installer, we still require them to register installations and carry out the proper pre-qualification to ensure customers have a positive experience and we have revoked installer's status for not following our procedures and recommendations.
Spot on. There are reasons we have pre-qualifications in place. When an IMS bearing is fitted in an engine that shouldn't be installed and it fails, I'm the one that gets the demand letter. It's easier to be a victim than a failure.
Correct, the Preferred Installer program is a paid program. However, we do require pre-qualification and registration of installations. We field dozens of calls daily for customers looking to have a bearing installed, and the piece of mind of having shops that follow our directives is added value. But no, we do not train the shops.
The training provided by The Knowledge Gruppe by Jake Raby and Tony Callas and subsequent certification they provide for IMS Solution installers is on a whole other level.
And no, using a Preferred or Certified Installer isn't required, but it does add a level of safety when choosing a shop. You still have to do your homework and make the decision of who does your install and make sure that they follow through with the required procedures, even though it will cost more money than a fly by night shop that low-***** the IMS job.
Isn't part of being a certified installer and the warranty involve sending the bearing back to LN? If this is the case, LN will be receiving the old bearing and can analyse whether it was failing to the point that the car should have been disqualified or not.
To LN, how much play in the bearing constitutes failing pre-qualification? If the bearing isn't shedding any metal but has play in it does that disqualify?
If the bearing has any indication that debris has been generated by and released into the engine, there is a chance the foreign object debris can damage something else. The original poster mentioned non-metallic debris which can be one of many wear pads or chain ramps. It's certainly a judgement call about whether or not you can can retrofit an engine based off what you find during the pre-installation qualification. A good litmus test is cam timing deviation - if more than 5 degrees, the engine shouldn't be retrofitted.
The truth of the matter is that most shops don't register installations and if the bearing is going bad, we rarely get those sent back to us. I'd probably say once in the last decade have we had a shop be honest that they put in a bearing when the original one was failing and supply us the bearing and even then, the engine did end up loosing the replacement IMS bearing within 1000 miles.
Looks just like the pics on the web. No carrier left whatsoever. About 6 ***** in the general location. Cover was not leaking. The engine was replaced and it failed over a year ago. i finally inspected it on the weekend.
It is a transition model year and this is an earlier engine. The receipt for the work said single row but it was definitely a dual row that was in there...
Unfortunate that it failed, but that is a single row, not dual row. Seen it before. If I recall from the original poster's email to us, the original work order for this job did show a single row bearing, however the engine was certainly not qualified as they didn't even change the oil and filter (and obviously the pan was not removed for inspection). Obviously not registered either.
The previous owner also didn't used DT40 oil not did they really understand what was being done to the car. The fact that the wrong bearing is on the work order made me second guess if the bearing had even been done. It had... just not well. LN Engineering have been extraordinarily helpful especially since I have another engine that is not going to get the "IMS Solution". The RMS of the replacement engine is walking out and so we need to access the bell housing area again anyway. Thanks again Charles et al!
Glad I can finally cast my vote. IMS replaced with Single Row Pro on my 120k mi 2002 Targa. No issues with original bearing...was still serviceable. Oil stuck in the IMS shaft behind the bearing was gross.
Replaced my stock IMS bearing at 90k miles, bearing was in excellent condition with no play. I have a 2002 Targa, so I believe it�s a single row.
Cheers,
Chris
2003 996 bearing failed in 2005 at 20,000 miles - replaced by Porsche under warranty (entire new engine from Germany installed).
Still have the car, now at 70,000 miles. (I am the original owner.)
Just got a 2002 996, with 98,000 miles, engine was replace by Porsche at 42,000 miles, so "new" engine has been on the car for 56,000 with no issue. I am dropping the pan this weekend and doing an oil change. Also upgrading to the LN Spin on filter.
I replaced the stock single row IMSB on my 2004 C2 with 90k. Original bearing looked good but there was a slight leak at the bearing cover. Hardest part of the job is reinstalling the 6speed transmission. Drilling out a snapped pressure plate bolt took some extra time...
Kevin
2004 C2 with low miles. Replaced bearing last year with Solution for Peace of Mind. Bearing in the car was fine. Done by Solution certified installer here in Maine who I would highly recommend.
148k miles with no evidence of IMS replacement. bought at 142k (cant be sure it wasn't done already). Keeping an eye on it! So far bore score is more worrisome, because oil consumption (this was at >130mph on a german autobahn though)...
Unfortunately it seems to be the low mileage cars that always grenade. If the oil was changed every 5000 miles, and the car only has 33,000 miles, then that means it�s only had 6 or so oil changes over 20 years. That�s sorta nuts. Old oil eats the IMS bearing seals up.
I�d recommend that you go to Mayo�s instead of Zims. No offense to Zims, but Mayos is a certified installer for the IMS Solution, which is no small feat. I�d also recommend that you consider doing the Solution instead of a ceramic replacement if you plan to keep the car for 5 or more years.
I appreciate it. Thats a good point on the oil changes I will review the paperwork I got from him. I know of Mayos, I will use them instead. Thanks for the update. One last question: What it the "Solution"? I do plan on keeping my car.
996 new owner & noob, 156000 km, 996 mk1 from 1998, no ISM issue (AFAIK, nothing "special" has been done about it and it's stock engine). My next PC is for the 160000 km service, I do have a proper history with the service book (from germany), I will ask the PC to get in details about the car history and eventually IMS work.
2003 C4 Cab... IMS bearing replaced with LN as preventive measure at 93K. Rod failure during DE at 112K with catastrophic results. Installed IMS solution during rebuild. Man was that a $ project.
No CEL - No RPM change - No Oil Pressure drop - Nothing on the Durametric ...
And that noise at a traffic light a mile from home (a guy knocked on the passenger window telling me my car was making some strange noise).
Any of you guys with an idea?
Can't be sure but my Y2000 C4 made a similar noise when I bought it. I don't know if I have a standard exhaust but mine has some vacuum activated flaps in there and the shaft from an actuator to the flap broke allowing it to rattle around inside. Hope that is it, a relatively painless problem!
I'm far from an expert, but based on everything I've read, that sound of "marbles in a tin can" is your IMS ball bearings rattling around. Jake Raby would tell you to turn it off and never start it again. Tow it to him or a qualified shop and tear it down. Otherwise, every second it runs the engine is doing more damage.
Someone with more experience can correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks for posting the video as I have never heard it before, yet I have read about this sound.
Oh, and, I'm sorry for your loss. (AND I HOPE I'M WRONG!)
Thanks for your answers.
Tovasco : Standard exhaust on mine - No flaps - Looking good
AdamIsAdam : I'm taking it to a shop asap. Bought the car 2 years ago with the IMS bearing supposedly changed ... Gonna wait for the expert to tell me the truth
10000 miles on the "new" bearing.
Gonna have the car inspected by an independent expert before calling the seller.
Hope the guy will be able to tell me if the bearing is the original or a new one.
If it was one of LN's kits and was registered, you can look up the install by VIN or by serial number:
http://imsretrofit.com/ims-check/
I would ask for a copy of the work order showing what exactly was done.
Charles I just checked the invoice.
The only reference regarding the IMS bearing is 014002 "Kit Roulement IMS Double" which translates to "IMS Double Bearing Kit".
Rings a bell?
14002 would be a serial number for a dual row IMS Retrofit, manufactured July 2014, so it is possible that it has one of our bearings fitted, but I would have presumed they would actually put the part number fitted. If I were the customer who paid to have it installed, I would have questioned the lack of detail.
If it is kit sn# 14002, it was not registered with us, so I don't know what the condition of the original bearing was or if the job was properly qualified. Bare minimum, they should have dropped the sump which you will find sealant listed on the workorder which is a likely indicator that the sump was dropped. Usually most shops will charge several hours extra labor for these extra checks, depending on how thorough they are, and indicate cam timing deviation numbers on the workorder or other notes from the inspection, like "sump was clean."
If you don't want to publicly share the workorder, you could always PM it to me so I can look it over. I could also see if we sold a bearing to the shop that put it in, etc.
That said, it's likely not an IMS bearing noise as we've have never seen one fail in over 10 years of offering the dual row IMS Retrofit. I would first pull the filter and also sump to be sure and go from there. There are lots of things that can make this noise. I've seen catalytic converters make the same noise.
Someone had to "knock on your window" and tell you that your car was making that noise? Seriously? Do you have a problem with your hearing? Let me guess, you had your favorite Gwar CD cranked up to 11 ? I wouldn't start that engine again until you figure out what's going on there...
I did a search and found a kit with the part number 014002:
https://cupspirit.com/roulement-arbr...le-rangee.html
It looks very much like the shielded dual row bearing kit from FVD that there was a thread about with a similar failure about a week or so ago. If not, it's a copy of their kit.
2004 C4S with 16k miles and original IMS. Purchased at 13k miles from original owner. Changed the oil twice already, once a year or 3k miles, whichever comes first. Plan to do this until clutch replacement or Indy recommends IMS replacement. So far he said it's not needed (I'm sure the board won't agree).
I'd really re think this as an owner, you should have this car pre-qualified for a IMS Solution or at the very least a replacement ceramic bearing
Not to say it's going to fail, but to enjoy the car for years to come
In comparison, its a small amount of money in the cost of ownership to the alternative
I don't believe so. Previous owner said he changed it a few times himself (not yearly though) and the records show two changes performed by the dealer.
copy that, I bought a 26,000 mile 2004 Anniversary car in 2014
after a thousand hard miles, I decided I would keep the car long term and had the IMS changed
X51 engine is an expensive replacement
The shop owner dropped the gearbox today and confirmed a failed IMS bearing (see pics).
Installed bearing is a FVD dual row as noted on the invoice.
Question is : How can a new IMS bearing fail after 16000 km (10000 miles)?
The car had 3 oil changes, the oil filter was cut open after each change and found free of metal shavings.
Just changed my IMS at 52000 miles, it was fine with no issue but now I have peace of mind.
At the garage there was an exact same 2004 C4S and my mechanic told me that the IMS just blew on it at only 23000 miles...
Welcome to the club, my FVD Dual Row failed too, 13k km:
link
. I luckily caught it in time, I'm sorry you didn't...
The bearing failed because the bearing is inherently not suited for the application. FVD sells what I identified as a ~40$ off-the-shelf SMT 5204 ZZ bearing that by design acts like a Porsche sealed bearing that has a failed seal on both sides. They just sourced the part, shipped it for a good (giant) profit and did little to no R&D on their actual bearing. A ZZ metal shielded bearing should never ever have been considered.
Edit// I've only just seen your vid, and if I'm correct you removed the bearing before it skipped timing? So no bent valves / engine damage? If so, there is hope. I had the same issue, started making horrible noise, metal everywhere, but no skipped timing. By sheer luck their kit keeps the IMS in place even if a portion of the ***** was ejected, as the inner ring is held firmly onto the cover plate.
Since you have metal laden oil, you'll have metal in there for a while. If your filter wasn't clogged and none of it went through your pressure channels through the oil filter bypass, the engine can be saved but you need a
sealed
bearing since there might still be metal particles in the oil for the first few oil changes after replacing the bearing, which could reach an open bearing and destroy it. For a dual row, there are basically no off-the-shelf options. I sourced my own sealed bearing (70$) that could be used with the remnants of the FVD kit, and it's been doing well for 3000 km so far, no new metal in my oil. You can contact me if you want to know more about the exact things I did.
My 'solution' is the cheap fix, but with a lack of sealed aftermarket kits, it's either the cheap solution or a complete engine teardown / cleanup / rebuild ($$$, expect 10K or more) so you can qualify for a proper LN Engineering bearing.
Sad to read the bad news.Such an expensive faiure can be a financial disaster for some enthusiasts.
I wonder what proportion of failures -with any IMSB or the FVD ever reach this Forum? It does make me very skeptical about the engineering validity of claims by some vendors. The sad part is the 'consequential damage'. When this happens to Boxsters, the repair cost may exceed the value of the car. A bitter introduction to Porsche and perhaps FVD for some who upgraded from Miatas . It would be useful if FVD would comment on these failures. They were quick enough to use Rennlist to promote their IMSB for Porsche M96 engines. They also roundly dismissed those of us who questioned their engineering. .Is this standard of engineering typical of their other products also?
To be fair, FVD and others never promoted Pre-Qualification procedures so some replacements may have been doomed regardless of the IMSB specification.
I gave FVD a call about my issue.
the answers the guy gave me:
(1) Product warranty is void if not installed by FVD
(2) Porsche 996 engines were made in East Germany and are therefore worth nothing.
End of conversation...
i am thinking of using them to upgrade to a 3.8L but with the cost I have to decide if I love my 996 enough to keep it forever vs one day buying a more modern 911
00MY C2 manual. Owned for 9 years, bought on 57k miles, now on 169k miles... all engine internals original. No bore scoring when scoped 18 months ago. Still pulls very nicely.
Seems like with regular oil changes and driving them, they last longer. It's a continuing theme here that many engines that fail are those that are not driven regularly. Of course there are always anomalies.
2003 Carrera 2, TipTronic, 102,000 miles with original IMSB. No issues. I'm new to Porsche ownership, recently bought the car and had PPI done at dealer. I asked about IMSB replacement. They didn't recommend replacing it. Dealer said after 102k miles just keep driving it and doing regular lube service.
I always get the revs up a little when pulling away. I figure if my clutch wears out faster I can justify doing an IMSB. I am at 84k and have clocked the last 37k miles in just over two years. The other reason I don't proactively do the IMSB is because my car has had a little knock for last 24k miles. I figure I'll save the $3k for the engine rebuild that might be coming soon. Car runs well and uses about a quart of oil per 1300-1500 miles.
Is the knock only on startup? Probably a lifter, no biggie. No engine rebuild required, they can be replaced without disassembling any of the �bottom end�.
What year car? The oil usage seems high to me. You might have a scored cylinder. Do either of your exhaust tips have more soot on one side?
2002 C4S. Possible lifter. Driver side exhaust has been sooty since I bought it with 47k miles. Knock started around 60k miles in January. Maybe cold weather helped score cylinders. I drive it all year.
My local mechanic said these cars can make this knock noise for a long time with anything going south. I know some people have little to no oil consumption but I was under the opinion that oil consumption will get much worse as my scoring gets more pronounced.
I've been using Ceratec and changing oil every 3 months or 3-4k miles. I am sure that is helping. Oil filter is always clear and the magnetic drain plug has only a very thin iron paste on it after each oil change.
Sooty single tail pipe is typically a sign of a scored bore that has progressed. If you don't have oil consumption yet, the Ceratec must be helping. I've seen some other members on with Cayennes that have scored bores swear by the Ceratec delaying the inevitable.
I would guess that using a 5w50 would also help as the slightly higher HTHS visc will reduce the consumption and also provide a bit more cushion. Driven has a 5w50 - it's FR50.
Thanks for the feedback. I have added two bottles of Ceratec twice now. Once at around 65k and again at 78k. I typically use Motul 5W40 but I tried Redline 5W50 last oil change. I got a little worried as my warm oil idle pressure was 2.5 bar. Normally it is about 1.75 to 2 bar with 5W40. I am back on 5W40 for now. But I can certainly go back to 5W50 if the common thought is that over 2 bar at idle is not anything to worry about.
Btw, I am also keeping revs between 3k and 5k. No lugging and no excessive WOT pulls. I figure it may help longevity a bit and it's still a fun car to drive this way.
The idle pressure being 2.5 cold with the 5w50 is not a problem. Porsche has a 5w50 on the approved list, so the viscosity shouldn't be an issue.
What are your fuel trim values?
In shop for other motor work and had bearing inspected. Intact but cracked, so had it changed out along with clutch. With 112,000+ miles on my 2000 C2, I feel like a lottery winner.
1999, 996.1 Carrera 6 speed manual, running strong at 186' km/116k miles.
Checked the IMS bearing (double row) and found no play at all, cage intact and no noises or rough rolling of the bearing *****
Left it in there and only pulled the seal.
My clutch was shot after 5 years of owning my '99 Carrera 4. I had the factory bearing replaced with an LN hybrid dual-row while the clutch work was being done when I first purchased the car. Hindsight being 20/20, I would not have replaced the dual-row bearing, but back then, every factory bearing was, seemingly, a stick of dynamite with a half-inch fuse.
I do most of my own work, but "big stuff" is done by a very reputable San Diego indie shop. To date, they have not seen a single failure of a dual-row retrofit; they are not recommending periodic preventive replacement for hybrid dual-row bearings they installed previously unless a customer specifically requests it. I have NO idea how many they've done or what kind of numbers they've crunched to arrive at this position, I feel like I've done right by them thus far, and I don't feel inspired to second-guess their advice.
TL;DR: My dual-row LN hybrid bearing was installed approx. 5 years, 30k miles ago and I'm leaving it alone.
Oh, and I currently possess the gold-plated IMSB...
I'm curious what 'very reputable San Diego indie shop' you use? I too, am a hands on guy and very rarely use a shop for anything but I figure sooner or later I will need to do so with the 996. The PO used Dieter's downtown and AFAIK, they have a pretty good reputation. They are also the only shop listed on LN's site for IMS replacement.
Tech at dealer also opined that the 996 cars with TipTronic suffer fewer IMSB failures than do manual transmissions due to normally being operated at lower revs, thus less stress on the bearing. Anyone else heard that?
Actually, according to Jake Raby's video on PCA and his site, that's the opposite. He said lugging these motors around at low RPM's put more stress on the IMS. He goes on to compare driving styles to that of air cooled engines, where you kept the revs up to keep the cooling fan spinning at speed and how you should basically drive at around 3,000 RPM most of the time rather than 2,000. He said don't use 6th great unless you are truly at highway speed also.
Exactly. The reason we see less failures with Tiptronics are that there are less of them. It's a fact that as surface speeds increase, wear and lubrication requirements for ball bearings and roller bearings decrease.
The reason they went with the larger 6305 series bearing in the 06-08 cars is that that increases surface speed as well as load capacity, restoring load rating to that of the original dual row bearing.
Can you explain this to us non-engineers? Is it because at higher speeds the parts start to float a bit? Maybe centrifugal force kicks in? Just curious.
The bearing operates in boundary and mixed lubrication regime, meaning the ball or roller has contact with the race and also where it's riding on the oil film. For a given load, the faster the bearing turns, the less oil film is required to maintain boundary lubrication.
Does that help?
No! It just makes me wish I paid more attention in high school. ;-) lol
Seriously, I do believe I understand the general idea.
On a related note, the Shelby GT350 Voodoo engines are experiencing some premature, unexplained (and unidentified) engine failures. I'm reading all the forums (because I have a new one myself) and freaking myself out. I thought to myself, now I have TWO cars that could suddenly and without warning explode into a million, expensive pieces! On the Shelby forums there are more than a few 911 owners. I've been trying to draw analogies between the two cars. I figure, one day when we have much more info to analyze (ie, failed engines that are out of warranty (right now Ford just confiscates the entire bad engine from the dealer and sends a new one rather than allow anyone to open it up!)) someone will have more knowledge like your team does about the IMS issue.
It seems most of the engine failures are related to a lack of/reduced amount of oil. These engines mysteriously develop an appetite for consuming oil. People report that they never burned a drop of oil, then they hear a noise and mysteriously, the dipstick shows no oil! It takes 5 quarts (holds 10) then later find engine damage. But some of these engines ARE actually consuming oil at very high rates even when they are checked regularly. Ford checks consumption and replaces as warranted (and warrantied). So my theory is that somehow, some of these engines are getting low on oil one way or another, and then there are issues. I check mine before every drive (it's not my DD).
Getting back to you and Jake, I've been trying to follow the your recommendations in terms of how to drive and maintain these engines. Basically, don't drive it if you can't get it fully up to temp (no short trips). Don't beat on it cold. And CHANGE THE OIL every 5k or 6 months regardless. Maybe that will keep them from developing a thirst for oil in the first place. And if it does take a qt every 1 or 2k miles, fine. Just don't let it get 5 quarts low! (I will say that there are folks who report that they really were on top of things and still, the engine suddenly started consuming oil or suddenly something failed. But since Ford just takes back those bad engines whole, we don't know what's going wrong.) (Oh, some theorize that since the engines are individually signed by the two man team that hand builds each one, they don't want anyone else opening them up to protect their reputations/jobs.)
If you're bored, here's the 63 page thread on engine failures (on one forum):
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/thr...thread.104010/
Sorry for the digression, but I wanted to share the similarities, especially since the GT350 seems to attract so many 911 owners.
I'm actually working on a directive for checking oil level now. Across the board, engines are getting thirsty. GM's latest bulletin states 1 quart per 2000 miles is normal and expected and 1 quart in 500 miles on performance models. Manufacturers have gone to 2-3# oil controls and surface finishes we consider a mirror finish on bores for friction reduction for fuel economy, however with thinner oils and fuel dilution, it's no surprise we end up with problems.
What should I do?
My new to me 996 with factory replaced engine and BIG IMSB is my DD. Short 12min commute gets up to temp and then I'm there. Same on my trip home but it's up hill and curvy so I'll stretch it out every chance I get.
I'd love to hear about your directives on that.
Ford Performance engineers said up to a quart every 800 miles while on the track, or more, is normal. I seem to recall my 996 manual also making claims like that related to track driving. It's the street high consumption that's nuts. Interesting comments about friction reduction in the cylinders. Thanks.
First post so be kind:
2000 996 C4 Tip Cab. Don’t really know provenance or service history past last owner. Now has 204,000 km on the clock, I drive it “with spirit” and it runs like a dream.
I saw a post earlier where someone stated engine numbers to IMS bearing fitted (Single/Dual) Went out to get engine number and lost post.
Can someone point me to that post?
Great site guys.
Thanks.
Welcome Rick! Make sure you get onto the PFA as well for some local get togethers
Being a 2000 with near certainty yours will have a dual row IMSB. Check out the PCNA videos with Jake for a really good run down on the IMSB.
Change your oil much more frequently - at most every 3k miles or every 3 months. You really need to pencil in there some days where you can drive it an extended period of at least 30 minutes, if not longer, if the weather is cold outside, as it will take significantly longer for the oil to get to get to temp. Ideally we want to see oil temp once in a while above 220F to get moisture buildup out of the crankcase. That's why when that can't happen, shorter intervals are needed for oi changes.
Cool, I got to be the "996th" vote in the poll for No IMS issues..
1999 996 C2 78,000 Miles
Recently I pulled the engine and trans to replace the clutch, AOS, etc. Pulled the factory original dual row bearing and it appeared to be in perfect condition with no noticeable play or damage.
Will probably replace it anyway with the LN or RND roller bearing. Love this car..
Happy Hollidays
My new to me 996, 2003, with 45000 miles or 72000 km, just had the IMS Solution installed. And AOS, clutch, flywheel, RMS, water pump and thermostat.
Hefty bill. I factored it in when I purchased the car 4 weeks ago. IMS bearing was of course fine.
Was as it a waste of money?
Yes, if I get rear ended tomorrow. If not, then it was worth it. I kept my mustang for 13 years. I bought a 996 because of the plain interior and spare tire. This will likely be my forever car. Hence why I did the solution.
MY01 C4 48k miles, no IMS issues. Oil changed annually.
I haven't checked in here in quite a few years. Back in the day, it was all about the RMS.
A couple questions (I watched the PCA & Jake's vids ): It seems the failure rate is higher for a car like mine, single bearing, sometimes sits for months. I do drive it hard when I drive it, coming from an air-cooled 911.
How worried should I be? Should I drop the $$ now and get it done? When does the clutch typically go on these cars? It seems a lot of people wait until the clutch needs replacing. How much should I expect to pay to get it done? How much if it's done w/the clutch? Is there a shop in the Seattle area (preferably north) that does these?
Anyone sell insurance to covert this? I heard there was a class action suit. Anything come of this? I bought the car new.
Reading all these threads has me a little scared to drive the car when I was just starting to enjoy it again.
It would be foolish not to address it now. If it's a car you want to keep, get "The Solution"!
We just had a member buy a low mile 996 and ignore the advice only to lose his motor 2 weeks later...
99 996 replaced at 97,000 miles, no problems. I just found the invoice for the repair from the previous owner. He sold the car at 99,000 miles to me so I am happy as a lark.
It was replaced with dual row LN. Receiving a copy of the work invoice has made my whole week! I was told that "all the updates were done" but I really had no proof or any work. This guy bought the car, did the RMS and IMS and a few other little items totaling $3700 and then sold the car 2,000 miles later. I'm happy!
3.6 M96 D Chunk failure @140k C4S, (which is delivered with bigger radiators). IMS looked "Ok" just a little play but some oil had made it past and into the tube. Was starting to notice plastic ramp/guide material in filter. California car relocated to South Carolina for last 15k of its miles. The engine was 100% stock, set-up factory thermostat, factory oil pan, factory radiator set-up. Factory PSE. Well documented maintenance and oil changes, (Mobile-1, best know at the time), Previous 2 owners appeared to spare no expense for routine maintenance and repairs.
Jake is right. It's not "if" it's "when" .... In my eyes, it's not a robust package, -I didn't expect it to be. The cost of engine failure however, is still a toss up for me as far as over-all value of the car. it's really not worth it but once you're in, it's a tough to give up, cut you loses, sell a roller and walk away... (probably what I should have done). But, who knows what future surprises are in store for us on the 991 direct injection engines ....
I went for a Christmas Day drive yesterday. Decided to exercise the AE. Off the battery tender, moved the Cabriolet, dropped the four post lift, checked tire pressure and headed out. Low T and new water pump last year brought temp up nicely. After a 3,500 RPM max 10 minute drive I push my 32k mi well maintained ride to redline.
Sad thought popped into my head as I sat at a stop light on PCH heading north to Malibu. IMSB Failure.
This thought quickly faded. Replaced by the 4.0L build Jake would do. The year long wait to get in line for the build was a blissful thought. The wait to replace all 51 modes of failure would be worth it. My wife would understand. She would, really.
Then I woke up in a cold sweat. I was dreaming.
It seems like a lot of owners got the replacement done before their engines/bearings went bad. I am glad many of you did not have to pay the high cost of a new engine. I have a question about the replacement bearings and was hoping someone could answer it for me. Before replacing the bearing for preventative reasons, does the car have to go through a qualification test of some kind? I thought I saw a video or read somewhere that it is important to do this because if the original bearing was going bad their could be some metal shavings in the engine that could damage the new bearing. I am not sure if I read that right or not as it was some time ago. This is kind of important to me because I am very interested in one of two 911s (a 2004 4S and a 2005 Carrera) and would also want to get the IMS bearing replaced, but it would suck to get the PPI done and buy the car only to find out that the car does not qualify for a replacement because the damage has already started and I.
Is the information I posted correct or did I get my facts mixed up. If I did, my apologies, still learning about the 996 and early 997. Just want to make sure if I ever do pull the trigger on one of the babies, I have a game plan in place to really enjoy the car.
Thanks!
Also, check the manufacturing date on the 05, I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but in 05 Porsche made a change where the IMS is not removable without a complete tear down but then again, they also used a much more robust bearing at that time.
Hi, thanks for that, I appreciate it. Yeah, I contacted the dealer and the manufacturer date was December 2014 so I would think it is the smaller single row bearing which in my opinion is a good thing because I can swap it out but if the prequalification can�t be done during the PPI then that could pose a problem.
Dec 2014?
You're playing a guessing game until eyes are set on the bearing. How do you know that these cars have not had there motors replaced at some point like many others?
Do you have documented service history and if so how far back?
Update: many oil changes and 25k Miles since the IMS solution. HPDE'd a few times. Car is running strong -- early oil changes had a few flecks in the filter. Nothing in the latest changes and nothing ever on the magnetic drain plug. Love the car... Never selling it
I just bought my 2001 996 a few weeks ago. It has 104k miles; pretty sure it's the original engine - the IMS/clutch was done at about 90,000 miles. I have a bar code kit from LNengineering - I THINK a shop in South Carolina installed it but I can't find the paperwork confirming that right now. The engine sounds strong, if that counts for anything, but I've only put about 30 miles on the car, so it may be too early to tell. I'm too cheap to buy the Carfax report - may splurge for the Blackstone Oil Analysis test later in the year when it's due for an oil / filter change. This car is way out of my league in every sense, but what an awesome car.
Yeah! I've noticed that you don't see too many Porsches out during the winter, and I don't want to subject it to rain and snow and salt and whatnot.
Another issue - it has what's called a "Muffler delete" system installed on it, and the ****er is LOUD! It's really not my style - I love the sound of the engine, but I'm not a big fan of people who make everyone around them share their liking for loud cars - don't want to be one of them. I have the old mufflers and plan to put them back in as soon as we get a couple warm days. -
02 C4S that just got its engine pulled after 52000 km / 32300 mls
IMS is clearly leaking, car was driven 10000 km / 6200 mls in the last 6 months, how far you guys think total failure was away?
I've called Squire's in Bellevue for quotes and I will say James who typically answers was amazing over the phone. Worth a call if you're not too much farther north. My 996 is in the shop at the dealer's expense but when I get it back it's going to Squires.
Hello and thank you to all who have contributed to here for us noobs to the Porsche family. I have recently bought a 2001 carerra 4 with 116k. Bought the Carfax but no signs of any major work on the car. My brother is a certified Porsche tech and is fearful that the IMS has not been done yet. I knew the IMS issue going in but is there any way to inspect to determine if done or not? Also with the amount of miles would stock clutch and IMS last this long. Car is totally stock and very clean to boot.
Hi Guys,
I bought a 996 C4 Feb/2001 with 160.000km three month ago. The car runs very fine no noises etc.
But I�m afraid about the IMS, so I�ve spoken with Charles Navarro to give me an address at Germany.
The bearing of LN Engineering was installed two weeks ago by a shop at the Netherlands (because there was no shop in Germany with bearings from LN Engineering).
In my car was a double bearing installed. Looks good and no noises after 160.000km. The bearing was full of oil (not anymore grease in it).
See the pictures of the old one (closed and opened):
closed
opened
opened without Clip
Charles, thanks for the support.
Hey
1999 996 I changed the IMS at 90,000 along with the AOS and the Tip transmission fluid.
The double row bearing had metal "grist" in its oil sleeve though the bearings were strong so I think I got it just in time.
TPS
Quick update...just because. 104k no failure, no noise no indication of any failure. But, I added a 2003 Turbo to the stable so the 99 C2 might be scared she's gonna be shipped out soon.
I've had the car now for two years. I didn't stay up nights worrying about IMS issues however I was curious about the bearing,as it was never serviced as it should have been. (A car with original shocks @ 90K miles in New York is no fun.) I have no reservations on breaking out tools and manual.
That being said when I changed the wheel bearings, shocks, springs, AOS , RMB, IMS bearing, cats,antiquated head unit and speakers. I figured that I was just catching up on the maintenance. Having owned domestic and other vehicles over the years I would have disposed of in a minute, this vehicle, short of a total destruction, is a keeper.
Aftermarket trolling for IMSB failure is only second to new, first time posts; what oil should i used in my _____________.
Sleeping better or worse after removing a perfectly good part for a new, but now a wear item parts?
Not according to anyone that lost a motor because of it. Seems like a no brainer to me. Except, I would go with the LN Solution and never worry about IMSB again. Do it once and forget about it!
1999 C4. Original dual row bearing was replaced with clutch at 94K miles in 2015. Bearing was fine with no signs of wear. New dual row LN IMSB installed at that time. Currently at 125k miles.
2001 C2 cab with 50k miles, dual row bearing, 2nd owner. Replaced my IMSB with the LNE Solution, replaced original clutch/pp/fw/bearing/lever (clutch worn 40%). Everything was perfect: no leaks, clean oil inside the IMS, lovely 2 row bearing in pristine condition. I drive 3-5k / year and use Motul 5w40. I did have to replace bank 1 variocam pads that were pretty badly pitted and the cam deviation was running about -8 degrees (no code). The most noticeable improvement is smoother uptake when releasing the clutch in first - although the original clutch was lightly worn and the flywheel functioned according to specs, the new hardware seemed to make a significant difference. The second most noticeable difference is that I no longer worry about the IMSB failing, but I worry about that little oil feed line chafing. Ill get over that - the IMS Solution is a nice piece of kit.
"
but I worry about that little oil feed line chafing."
Chafing on what? It shouldn't be making contact with anything. If it is, adjust the fittings until the line doesn't touch anything. If you can't, just put a piece of rubber tubing around it...
The ticking could be a sticky intake valve lifter. I had that on my 2003 996.2. My indy dropped the engine and replaced all six (two per cylinder) on that side.
04 C4S cab 50k m, original owner, original everything except tires, alternator and convertible pistons. All I've ever done is change the oil and run it at least once a week.
My 2002 Carrera had the LN IMSB replacement at 36,000, miles prior to my purchase. My previous Porsche was a 2001 Boxster S which I purchased at 39,000 miles. During my Boxster ownership I read anything I could to educate myself about the potential problem. I changed the oil myself every 3-4 thousand miles using an OEM filter and I inspected the old filter for metal bits. I used Mobil 1 synthetic oil with that car. Prior to selling the car at 56,000 miles, I had my local shop replace the IMSB with the LN product, even though there was never a hint of visible material in the oil. This definitely helped the resale value. My advise, to those who are considering the purchase of a 996 is to have a PPI performed. If possible, have an oil analysis performed. If the car has not had the baring replaced, try to negotiate a lower price to offset the cost and have the RMS and clutch replaced at the same time. To me the 996 represents the best value available in Porsche ownership right now. These cars are lightweight, still very "analogue" with regard to overall control. The brakes are excellent and they are plenty fast. The headlights were pretty enough for the GT1. Just sayin. Cheers!
2001 Porsche 911 Carrera C4 in Cobalt Blue. 53,000 miles, no IMS failure, car built in November of 2000. Tiptronic, runs great, no plans to replace the IMS bearing. Porsche collector and mechanics advised me to leave it alone. I was asked..."Would you rather own a 911 with an engine built to Porsche specifications by German mechanics or have it taken apart by some local mechanic?" It's like cracking your chest open and having heart valve stints put in "just in case". Most of the IMS fear is generated by the companies selling the replacement bearing! By the way, get your flu shot or you could die.
Do you have health insurance? ^^Tell that to anyone who's had their IMSB fail!
A couple thousand dollars is cheap insurance if you ask me.
53K mile in 20 years/ why don't you drive your car more?
just lost my Ln bearing I had replaced on my 03 3.6
new motor time , Joe anselmo is doing the motor
he is doing the eps ims, he told me he is seeing
more and more Ln failures and they need to be
replaced every 30,000 miles,
wish I new that earlier,
Sorry to hear you had a failure. This is the first I hear especially since I find interesting that Joe Anselmo is "seeing LN failures", but he's never once reached out to us. Not to take anything away from your situation, but many failures are misidentified as IMS where it's collateral damage - it's all too easy to blame the IMS or our product for that matter.
Service intervals have been clearly stated since inception. If bearings are taken past their service interval, time or mileage (whichever comes first), it's time to replace. Every bearing with a serial number of 10000 or earlier is past their service interval. Most every classic single row IMS Retrofits are all past due as well as we haven't made or sold any since July 2017, as it was superseded by the Single Row Pro when existing stock of the older kit was depleted.
There have been posts of failures of LN, EPS, Insaro, FVD, other bearings on Rennlist. Nothing mechanical last forever or is 100% fail proof. The IMS Solution is the closest thing to fail-safe and the only permanent fix.
watch out, ims police are out.
Original owner 04 c4s, everything original (except alternator) and runs like a bat out of hell. Just got a clean bill of health from orbit.
some of u guys are a little overboard with the IMS Guyana kool aid mentality.
Hi
I got a 1999 911 Carrera (built in 1998) I replaced the IMS double row bearing with another double row bearing along with the rear main seal. Hell, It lasted 90000 miles which is more than many cars last nowadays. Why not replace it with another one? The bearing cost 28 bucks by the way. Hope I didn't rain on someone's parade but if you conduct maintenance at service intervals or sooner the stuff should last.
Not sure where you get 5% from when the RL poll is up to near 10% and not all IMSB failures are even reported here.
On that note, if you can't afford a full rebuild, treating the IMSB as a wear item makes sense don't you think?
RL is a small sampling to be used as the bible for this issue and I believe a majority of 996 owners on here are garage queens and not everyday drivers( or frequent 2-3x a week) which I believe is a major part of the issue.
Sure once a car gets to 100-150k miles it's a maintenance item. I have an 05 6.0 diesel excursion. Similar to the porsche there is an engine issue that affects a small percentage of vehicles. I had the issue and addressed it and now the engine is one of the best diesel's I've ever owned. The 996 is my third 911 porsche and I've driven them all hard and never had any issues. Between the 89 targa and the 86 turbo, the 996 has been my favorite. I've done nothing to it but change the oil and the alternator.
So yes, in my opinion it can be considered a wear item at a certain mileage and the oil should be monitored religiously for foreign matter but to run around preaching the sky is falling is not in my wheelhouse.
Its hilarious how on BAT anytime a 996 is listed the ims guys come out of the woodwork even though 99% of them aren't bidders.
To each his own.
"
I believe a majority of 996 owners on here are garage queens and not everyday drivers( or frequent 2-3x a week) which I believe is a major part of the issue."
Oh you do? What is this "belief" based on? Certainly not your massive post count of 7?
@doporto.. really? Ur basing a conversation on how many posts I have on a forum? So I'm not a keyboard cowboy like you with 20 pages of posts in the past 6 months (I guess I have a life) but I have been the owner of 3 911's since 1993 at the ripe old age of 28, so maybe my years of ownership and variety of rides counts for more than how many posts I have in a sub forum of a relatively small enthusiast's website.
Checking my history on here I see you also are misinformed, my post count has to be at least 20 since joining in 2016! So by all means if your excessive participation here makes you feel like a "winner" then keep it up. Maybe one day you can aspire to be a Rennlist moderator.
Forum members, Sorry for hijacking this thread with this bs and I won't respond any further to dporto.
Nice! I asked you what you based your "belief" on... Hmmmm, doesn't look like you answered the question, just bloviated on what an expert you are based on your past ownership...and OH you owned your first Porsche at age 28... WELL! You must be an expert...
Keyboard Cowboy indeed!
25 months of ownership, ~11k miles driven, multiple track days, just hit 93,4xx miles, regular maintenance, etc. IMS has not decided to attack on it's own for another year, so if I could vote again, I would! Oh well. Hopefully one day.
05 C4S 996 29k miles, bought it 7 months ago. IMSB was replaced at 18k miles by the previous owner. I know low mile examples are not what this thread was really for...According to some other posts I didn't buy the right 996 because it has low miles and could have issues... Time will tell!
Btw I like this thread even though the IMSB discussions have been beaten to death ultimately lining the pockets of the aftermarket sellers... That being said if my car came with the stock IMSB I would have also purchased a retrofit or solution.... Peace of mind is nice. If someone can enjoy the car without worrying about all these things I envy you!
Rick
My car had 127000 miles when I bought it in 2014, so I removed the ims bearing to change with a standard like for like replacement, (which i bought from Bristol bearings for about �8.50!), but with the seals removed. The bearing removed showed no signs of play, but was slightly rough sounding when rotated. I sold the car last March 2019 and the car now has around 135000 with no issues.
Just became aware of IMS issues after 20 years and 32k miles of ignorant bliss. Had my indy mechanic take a look and listen and test drive recently, and his net recommendation after an hour with the car was "drive it, enjoy it, don't bother with IMS proactive replacement". Still pondering that advice, but in the meantime, frequent oil changes, blackstone UOA each time, audio recordings, cam variation tracking, oil consumption tracking, etc. are all part of my no-longer-blissfully-ignorant engine vigilance program. And happy to report I am now using more right foot driving higher RPMs as a result of many "drive it like it was stolen" recommendations on this forum.
Kelly
Think about your post and what you're hearing (or reading) from whom... That should kind of tell you something IMO. In Houston we have some of the best Porsche techs in the country and their advice on this issue (of the numerous I've asked and used), especially at my mileage with no issues arising, was a consensus that most of us arrived at a long time ago. Your preventative maintenance is even above what I do, which I think mine is still pretty solid, so go back to driving in bliss and just have fun with it. My car started responding and IMO needed less maintenance the harder I drove it. On my HPDE weekends I let it click to about 6000-6500 before upshifts and it handles like a champ all weekend. Even around town I'm at 3k as soon as possible to get some power. It's not a $580k Aventador 'lying in wait' to explode on you on the way to Dunkin Donuts like many here would have you believe, unfortunately... Just enjoy it!
The IMS/RMS Monster is a sleeping beast. It could literally happen at any and every second to 100% of every 996 ever made. Ever. I just want viewers at home to know I made it another few miles without harm. Hide your friends, hide your wife. IMS Monster all up on erry'body here.
Tony Heyer has been my indie for about 25 years now and I wouldn't doubt what he says. However, it's a probability thing. My 2002 came "this close" to a massive failure. It was caught during an oil change after I installed a magnetic drain plug at Tony's recommendation, shedding metal like there was no tomorrow. There's a long story attached to this, but that's the summary for the topic at hand. Yours is a 1999 with a much stronger IMS bearing. I've done a lot of research and talked extensively with Jake Raby while going through this with mine, and from my understanding, for your case, I would recommend 1) Magnetic drain plug, 2) Spin-on oil filter to eliminate the stock oil filter bypass valve. But if you haven't had a failure yet, especially given you have a '99, it is unlikely you will, even with the low mileage.
@RSBro
Actually, I moved on from Unimogs a few years ago. I shifted my focus to armor, and tracked vehicles. Yeah, tanks and half tracks are more effective around here. Looks like you must be one of those "Must be nice" guys? What isn't "nice" is dealing with people that think like you-
Anyway, you are so misinformed that it isn't even funny.. Well, it kind of is funny.
I haven't sold IMS products, or had anything to do with the IMSB sales since 2011. I buy my IMS Bearings from LN Engineering just like everyone else does, and I also buy the tool kits like everyone else does. I did my part as the idea guy, and the developer. When that part was done, I checked out, and have not looked back.
Today what pays for tanks, and half- tracks isn't people that are afraid of failure buying products, its actually the contrary. Failure is what drives my business, and business is good.
The more people that don't address failure before it happens, the busier that we become.
Today these people are part of two groups, the ignorant that had no idea these engines failed, or the ones that choose not to address things preventatively. (They think that it's "hype" or "fear mongering") I deal with the former, and latter on a daily basis, but the one things we no longer do here is preventative IMSR work- we don't have the time.
So, you might want to alter your signature, to be more accurate. Thank you.
BTW- I took the Sabre to Caffeine and Octane yesterday, and left the Porsche cars at home.
It was a good time, and I actually enjoyed myself, which is much different than when I show up driving a Porsche~
I bought a 2002 C2 Cab with 24,800 mi and replaced IMS with Single Row Pro as I recall. I now have about 50K mi .
I keep seeing �only 10%� failure rate for 996 IMS. I think that is actually a very high percentage. I don�t know what the real number is but a manufacturer that puts out a supposedly high quality product with that kind of failure rate seems pretty darn incompetent, irresponsible or malevolent to me .
When failures were happening under the warranty period, the data was closer to being accurate, but now that the newest of 996 are 10+ years out of warranty, most of these cars are probably NOT being serviced by the dealerships; therefore, an accurate percentage of IMS bearing failures can NOT be achieved. Hopefully people will get their head out of the sand and replace them as a precautionary step.
The percentages always have been, and always will be nothing more than vaporware.
The data that is required to create a sum doesn't exist with any degree of accuracy.
The engines that were misdiagnosed are one big factor in this equation.
Today we see just as many failures reported as ever, and the majority of these people had no idea that the engine had an IMS Bearing, or what it even is. It seems the only folks that are experiencing failures today are the ones that aren't informed.
Every now and then someone that was "on the fence" about IMS Retrofit will have a failure. The one group that never admits they were wrong is the camp that says this is all hype, and then it happens to them. They never admit they were wrong when it happens, they just crawl under a rock, but I am able to figure out who they are from time to time.
1999 original dual row at 88k miles, replaced proactively. I say 'maybe' because 2 things seemed off when I pulled the bearing. First, there was pretty severe pitting on the inside of the flange, maybe normal, I am not sure. Second, although both seals were in place and looked good, when I pulled the bearing quite a bit of oil came out of the IMS, and it definitely had an off smell, not like normal motor oil. If the seals were truly working I would have expected no oil behind the bearing.
Nonetheless, replaced with the LN ceramic. The LN toolset worked great for pulling and installing. I am also replacing the AOS, water pump, oil hex drive shaft, and RMS while the engine is out, so a little while longer before its all back together. So much of the plastic has gotten very brittle over 20 years of heat cycles.
Sorting out my new-to-me 72K 2002 996 C2 Cabrio Tip that had an RMS single row classic retrofit back in Sept 2013 at 59K. The service interval says replace the bearing at 4 years or 50K. Can someone explain to me why IMS Retrofit would advise replacing a bearing before achieving less than the rated mileage? A 50K bearing service life makes sense to me, but an apparently arbitrary expiry time does not. The car being a Tip means there is no periodic clutch replacement anticipated, so I would obviously prefer to wait until the odometer hits 109K or thereabouts before replacement, unless I am missing something? These bearings are open bath or have had the seals removed, right?
I advise you to contact the manufacturer/seller of your bearing for an answer to your question.
Or google it and you'll see many links to the topic of discussion...
Based on what I�ve read, that suggestion is because of the potential for oil problems in cars that are not driven regularly. The seals can only take so much, and then they start to degrade. With partial degradation, you end up with a mix of oil, grease, and water (from condensation) within the seals, which begins to corrode the bearing races, leading to pitting and ultimately to failure.
Guess I am surprised it would have any inner seal at all, making it an open bath bearing lubricated by the engine oil. Forget using the factory bearing grease for lubrication, that's the root cause of the problem in the first place so I would think any retrofit kit would throw the inner bearing seal away. I replaced a 986 IMS bearing with the Pelican Parts kit several years ago and the inner seal was simply removed. That kit has just a mileage limitation - I think it was 30K, but no mention of a time limit since the lube is constantly being renewed each time the engine is run.
Anyway I reached out to RMS engineering for their thoughts on the subject. I'll be bummed if I learn that the classic kit is just a sealed bearing replacement with factory lube. No better than the Porsche original so what's the point?
Definitely let us know which one it is. I had a new OEM single-row installed about three years ago (because the engine was apart anyway for cleaning due to a bad water pump failure and he was able to source a full OEM intermediate shaft with single-row bearing for early 996�s) and the engine builder pulled the grease seal on that one. Said he�s been doing that for years on 9x6/9x7�s and never had a problem with any of them. But there is still a risk that any crap in the oil (plastic wearing off from chain guides) could lead to its destruction as well, so I still plan to replace it regularly as a maintenance item.
Hello. Is there anyway of knowing if the IMS bearing has been changed? The dealer that is selling the 2003 911 has no clue. Its not listed on the carfax. I do have the vin number but was not sure where to start. Any ideas?
In a word...nope. If there are no shop receipts or an LN Engineering sticker on the door jam (replacement bearing registered with LN Engineering), there is no way to know. Sorry about that. Just buy it and plan to have the LN Engineering Solution installed...then you will know for sure.
Bought mine from a dealer in October '18. Had it checked out, looked fine, dealer didn't know if IMSB was replaced or not, Carfax didn't say. Brought the car in a few weeks ago (I do change the oil but have only driven 3K miles since getting it) to diagnose a high-pitched gear noise of some kind. Thought it was tensioner pulleys - nope. Now, seeing metal in the oil filter... IMS was original and is failing. So there's one data point...
Dang. I have to wonder whether the previous owner or the dealer saw metal in the oil and changed right before the inspection so it would look OK. If the oil has under 1000 miles on it, it'll look closer to the clear brown color of fresh oil than to the black color after 5000 miles.
They looked for traces of metal in the oil filter. Nothing much more you can do short of paying many dollars to drop the transmission etc and open it up.
I wonder the same thing. Unfortunately 18 months have passed, dealer sales department is closed for pandemic, and even if they were open they'd likely tell me they were given no information about the IMSB. I'm trying to think positive, that I'm doing what's right for the car (and next owner), hoping I don't get any more "I've got bad news" calls from my mechanic, and looking forward to more years of driving enjoyment. Because until now, it's been a hoot to drive. Yeah, "hoot."
Yup, you got burned. We've seen this happen so many times, thus the reason we preach getting a "Proper PPI" done. Sorry.
What's your plan? I hope your mechanic knows how to proceed otherwise you be here again.
I didn't get a PPI but I had 10 days to bring it back, no questions asked. I don't have the paperwork in front of me but I did get it inspected within a few days. Compression check, checked the oil and other fluids, saw no traces of metal, oil looked good, he drove it, and found several "little" things that would need attention over the years. Play in the water pump, damp oil sump, small leak in cam cover gasket... nothing that screamed "RUN AWAY". I haven't heard or read anything on here that comprises an IMSB test. My indy mechanic has a 996 also - we both knew of the IMSB liability but said we would keep good tabs on it. It's hard to cover up a failing IMSB.
In retrospect I don't necessarily think I got burned by the dealer (who listed the used car) or by anyone else. The option I could, perhaps should, have taken was to walk away from a 20-yr old porsche where I was the third or fourth owner and had no info on previous owners or what they did with the car. I could/should have also just replaced the IMSB on day one.
Sorry I should have said the dealer got burned as we've seen this happen over and over. Previous owner discovers metal in the oil does an oil change and immediately trades it in.
Either way it sucks and I hope you get it sorted, These are great sports cars once up and running!
The question is; What stage of failure is it in, and can it be replaced without a complete tear-down/clean-out of the motor... see here:
http://lnengineering.com/files/2019-...-rev.06-21.pdf
and here:
You Tube
Good Luck
Metal in the oil doesn�t always mean IMS.
I hear quite frequently about the chain wearing out. It also seems chain tensioners stop doing their job after a while, and perhaps give more play to the chain, hence earlier chain wear? I�m not sure. Just an internet mechanic here.
my .02
01, manufactured in October of 2000. Double row. Replaced with IMS retrofit at 129,xxx miles because the clutch was getting done and why not? The bearing showed no signs of wear.
You can check the LN Engineering retrofit registration page and see if your VIN is listed. Normally the installer would apply a retrofit decal in an easy to find place like on the door sill, but in my case it was inside the owner's manual in a small plastic packet. I checked the decal number against the LN registry and found it was indeed registered correctly at the time of the retrofit. The registration will confirm which type of retrofit kit was installed as well as the date and installing dealer. Good Luck!
Actually LN engineering has a registration page on their website where you can look up your VIN number and see if a kit was installed by an authorized dealer and when.
Here is the link to the registration data base:
https://imsretrofit.com/ims-check/
Purchased my 03 c4 with 48k miles in 2016 in Winter Park, FL from North Northam Collection. Sales invoice states IM Bearing replaced with LN Engineering Kit. Unfortunately, cannot find registration of said kit at LN website.
Repair documentation notates:
Dual Row IMS Bearing Replaced
Rear Main Seal Replaced
Cam Plugs Replaced
Left Chain Tensioner Replaced
63k now and seems to be going strong.
Looking to buy a '02 8000Mile Carrera Coupe. 3.6, does it need an IMS bearing check? How much would it take to replace, apparently the tech at Porsche said not to be considered at such low mileage is that correct?
112k, 2 owners ago put the IMS retrofit in at 80k, 6+ years ago. Past the time change interval as per LN's website but still within the mileage on the bearing. Previous owner just before me replaced clutch at 99k, but didn't touch the IMS while he was in there. Economies of scale would have made this a no brainer job with clutch, not sure if worth it for just the bearing. UOA continues to come back positive, nothing visible in the filters. Will likely drop the sump next oil change to poke around.
Thinking of moving from Blackstone to Speediagnostix going forward, any thoughts? Is their analysis worth it or just extra money for a few colored cells?
UOA's are about building a trend log. One here and one there is not showing you the whole picture.
As far as retrofitting, it's time or mileage...Which ever comes first!
Just ask the guy that lost his motor because he waited on a low mileage retro fit that timed out!
Replaced the clutch and flywheel in my 2003 Cab C2 with 90,000 miles this weekend. Changed the RMS and IMSB while I was in there. The original IMSB was perfect. I’m glad I changed it anyway. One less thing to worry about.
Currently having the IMSB done on my 2002 targa with 123K miles at local Porsche shop. Mechanic said it still had the original IMSB. Also getting RMS, Clutch kit, Flywheel, AOS, and transmission mount done as well.
The front of the LN bearing is open, the rear has a seal. This presumably allows the oil that splashes in the bearing/flange cavity to saturate the bearings & races and remain somewhat collected in place. I also understand that the air itself within the engine has oil particulate suspended. I suspect that with regular & quality oil changes we�ll get a great many years out of the LN Dual Row bearing.
01. C2 single row
Had a leaky ims.. was the seal.
Bearing was good, limited play in shaft and no noise or resistance. after a couple days oil was seeping out.. grease was all washed out.
Went with EPS /vertex bearing.
Atleast My mind is at rest now. Had been dreaming of broken ball bearings rolling all over my engine for weeks.
So I picked up my 911 yesterday the car drives amazing now night and day difference. As for the IMSB my 911 has about 123K miles on it and it still had the original Single row IMSB in it. The new IMSB installed is the LN engineering single row set. I also replaced clutch kit, flywheel, RMS, coolant hoses, water pump, thermostat, AOS, trans mount, and had new fluids done all around. while it was there i took advantage of them having a muffler shop next door to them and had the gundo hack/fister mod done to the mufflers and I am 100% happy with the outcome. The car sounds amazing now, in all this whole project was a great idea. I enjoy my 911 even more especially because of the peace of mind I have now when driving it. Attached are photos of the old parts that were replaced and their condition, I have had this vehicle for about 6k miles and since March 2020. It is currently my daily driver and will be for at least another year, which is why I went ahead and did this project.
Just bought a new-for-me 99' C4 Cabrio with 25K original miles. Didn't bother doing a PPI, it looked too nice. Got it in late February. As soon as I got the smog cert taken care of, I went to my indy (Precision Motion, Colton, Ca) and he did is "996 care package"...new clutch, AOS, coolent tank, RMS and IMS. Curiously, the IMS bearing had "Japan" stamped on it--he said this was the original.
On my recently purchased car I learned the IMS was actually replaced with an LN one. It was about 55k miles ago and about 10 years. Car has 79k miles now. According to LN site it's due for service again based on time passed but not mileage. I'll probably have it done sometime this winter but probably no rush. Thoughts? I'll probably do a clutch at that point too. Perhaps RMS too?
Definitely agree about time in service being an important part of the equation. Had it been the original OEM one I'd be a bit quicker to get it done asap but with the LN one in there, albeit older, I'll probably look to have it done in coming months.
Not snark but genuine curiosity, why is this? What is the wear mechanism over time rather than miles? Only thing I can think of is corrosion or lubricant break down with age.
To keep it simple, internal engine components that are exposed to extreme load and high temperatures will age even when driven infrequently. Many Porsche shops like Flat 6 Innovations have reported that low mileage "garage queens" are more prone to IMS bearing failure than cars that are driven regularly with more frequent oil changes. Engine components like the IMS bearing that see long drain intervals can be exposed to oil contaminants (e.g. combustion byproducts, moisture, etc.) which in turn negatively affect the bearing's life span.
If you need a more scientific explanation, I encourage you to download many of the technical articles published on the subject by LN Engineering or you can follow Jake Raby's video series on IMS Bearing failure. He demonstrates the problem with a one-owner low mileage Porsche 996.
You Tube
2003 C2 Cabrio I just purchased with 48,000 miles had a catastrophic failure at 39,000 mile. Spoke to the mechanic who tore down engine and replaced both shaft and bearing. Used EPS bearing.
The quote above was made in Feb 2013. In the past 7 years, failure rate reported in the poll has become almost 10%.
Most....almost all...comments come from those that either had no failure, or had replaced the bearing. Wish that those that suffered the failure would post about the symptoms before they found out.
i think failure is considered as a leak or mild play once removed as maintenance.
i thought my rms was leaking.
Nope, ims bearing flange was leaking .. bearing was still fine. 120000km.
[QUOTE=bamaboy473;17025128]The quote above was made in Feb 2013. In the past 7 years, failure rate reported in the poll has become almost 10%.
Most....almost all...comments come from those that either had no failure, or had replaced the bearing. Wish that those that suffered the failure would post about the symptoms before they found out.[/QUOTE
Yes, but 10% of what? /X3
[QUOTE=exthree;17028943]
I'm not the greatest numbers guy, but if the poll shows 10%, that has to be the bare minimum. How many people lost their engines and just junked their cars/parted them out, and went on to another brand that wouldn't give them opportunity to ever vote in a poll? How many got new engines and went on with life, but they aren't forum types, so they wouldn't vote, either?
What if the number is a good bit higher? Sobering thought.
[QUOTE=bamaboy473;17028978]
The number is much higher and that's a fact....I've seen/read reports of at least one a month (some on other forums and social media sites) since I joined Rennlist. Take that for what it worth.
^^^It's a sealed bearing (if original). That means if oil is leaking past it, the "permanent" grease in the bearing has already been washed out and replaced by enginge/crankcase oil - which also means you're already well on your way to stage one of bearing failure... you should have replaced the bearing while you had the flange off.
My understanding is that the more we drive our cars the better the chance to avoid failure. Seems to be a combination of design and the storing the cars for the winter. So when. Bought my car I had the bearing replaced with an LN 6 year warranty bearing. And I drive the cat 12 months and only driving in winter when the streets are dry. I did not go with �The Solution � because the LN was half the price and at 6 years give or take I could do another LN bearing for another 6 years. Also I thought I�d need a clutch somewhere down the line and I could do another LN bearing then. Meantime I�ve put 20K miles on and the original clutch still feels good so I think my decisions were good or lucky.
2004 C2 with 48K on the clock. Just got the car back from the shop this morning after preemptively having the LN Solution installed. Original IMSB in perfect condition.
No idea unfortunately. I just bought it a few weeks ago and wasn't taking any chances so I took it to the only LN certified shop in Texas to have it all inspected and replaced. The tech who worked on the car said the cylinders were some of the best he's ever seen after having done "many many" IMS solution pre-qualifications and installs. It was expensive but the peace of mind is worth it for me. So again, no idea how it's been driven in the past but I can tell you, it's going to be driven the way it was designed to be driven from here on out!
I had my IMS bearing replaced with an LN retrofit bearing in November 2019, about 10.000 km ago. Last week I heard a strange whoop-whoop type of noise from the engine, stopped to hear what's going on, and then the sound of metal on metal. I had the car towed to my indy (who didn't do the bearing replacement) and just got the message that most likely, the bearing has failed. The oil filter is full of debris. I am quite disappointed to see this happening after having done a preventative replacement! The old bearing was in good shape and the engine was running just fine up to last week. Mileage is 106.000 km, around 60.000 miles.
I'm going to have the engine taken apart to make sure any damage is repaired properly.
Edit: it turns out the replacement bearing was not an LN retrofit bearing -- the shop that installed it lied to me.
Will do! I'm very intrigued to see what happened to the bearing. It's possible it was installed incorrectly -- I did notice a more whining sound from the engine after the replacement, but I only did a test drive before so I'm not 100% certain about this. Hopefully the rest of the engine is still OK. And what type of bearing should I have installed? Probably best to just go for the IMS solution right away.
@frederik
For the sake of data integrity in this thread, if it
wasn't
the bearing the failed, please edit/update your original post so that this doesn't remain on the Internet. Either way, this will be an important data point. If it is an IMS failure, it would definitely reduce the number of people choosing this path.
FYI, I have no vested interest in LN. I personally chose to replace my failed double-row IMS bearing with a new Porsche part that includes an original double-row bearing mounted on a new shaft, with the grease seal removed from the bearing (at that time, the 'IMS Solution' was brand new and there was no history on it, so my engine builder wouldn't use it). This is almost definitely going to induce more wear and forces this to be a standard maintenance item that I'm going to have to replace at some point, but it protects against the worst-case scenario of the grease seal leaking enough to let out the grease while storing acidic moisture within. Someday, I will likely replace it with the 'IMS solution' that uses an oil-fed journal bearing.
Nope! I didn't know anything about the M96 engine at that time otherwise I would have proceeded more carefully, but I negotiated the bearing replacement into the sale. I do know the old bearing seemed to be fine. I will update the original post once I know more.
The LN IMS Solution is onerously expensive at ~$1800, but you can find it on Ebay for $1365 with a "best offer" so you can probably get it even cheaper.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/17477105656...IAAOSwP25a3J~3
$1365 is still a LOT of money for what you're getting, but if you're spending the ~$1500 in labor to have the IMS bearing changed, you might as well spend the $1365 and get the "it supposedly ain't ever gonna fail" bearing. For the record, I paid full retail for the IMS Solution (didn't know better at the time), and it ran me about $4500 for it, plus labor plus a new clutch. The original bearing on my '02, with 38K miles on it, was in perfect shape, and the clutch was okay as well, but the engine felt a bit smoother and the new clutch felt a lot better, after the upgrades.
Expensive? Do you have any idea how much money was spent to come up with the "perfect" IMSB replacement? I'd say it's cheap insurance that could save you $10-$25K in the long run!
The forum support of LN bearings is quite the phenomenon.
So, you buy a "ceramic" bearing for $900! (wholesale value = ~$50) to proactively replace a perfectly fine OEM bearing hoping for a better life for your M96. The new ceramic bearing is so fragile it requires some kind of onerous, expensive "pre-inspection", then, you must install it with nothing heavier than a feather or "warranty void". Oh, and then you must return your old bearing (wtf). When the new bearing fails (research shows them failing quite a bit) in not too many miles, the company tells you "it wasn't installed correctly". THEN! the usual suspects in the forum community parrots ad nauseum "buy the IMS Solution" for a whopping $1900 FROM THE SAME COMPANY! Then, pay even more money for more labor to a "certified installer". Seriously, can anyone sane find the flawed reasoning here?
Oh, and by the way, that original ceramic bearing has the poorest warranty of any IMSB you can find. It is actually less than half of what Porsche's factory warranty was on their original flawed bearing. Way to stand behind a product.
When looking for my 996 I put ZERO value on a car having a ceramic bearing. I researched a ton and self installed a cylindrical (roller) bearing that the company stated it had no failures. I'm diligent by nature so I searched and couldn't find a single failure of ANY brands* bearing of this type, None, Zip, Nada. Cost was a third less. Warranty was double, unlimited miles. No stupid "prequalification's". Great customer service. No sending my old bearing back. Self install was easy. You don't get a sticker though.
Did I miss anything, any mistakes I need to correct?
*And, before you ask, my relationship to any bearing or parts company (or any company)? None, Zip, Nada.
This is nothing new. The haters are going to hate.
As I've stated in the past and likely even in this same thread, the pre-qualification and registration requirements are there for a reason. There are many people and shops putting bearings into engines that shouldn't be retrofitted. If the warranty requirements which aren't that difficult to adhere to aren't followed, there is no warranty. If you do it right and register it, there is nothing really to argue about and in the few instances where likely there was a quality issue with the bearing, we took care of customer. Likewise, if the bearing was done in 2008 (yes, the IMS Retrofit has been around that long) and it fails, it's out of the recommended service interval. The IMS Retrofit was never designed as a permanent replacement like the IMS Solution was (which carries a much longer warranty).
I'll repeat as I have done many times before. There are literally tens of thousands of cars out there that have bearings far beyond the service interval. We even offer a mail in rebate for those needing to service their IMS again with a larger discount for those who opt for the IMS Solution which basically knocks them down to our cost. Remember, the majority of all these kits are sold through wholesale channels and there are minimum margins that have to be built into these parts, just like anything else you buy, even beyond car parts.
The other guys claim their roller bearing kits are permanent and have had no failures, but that's simply not the case. Their kits haven't been around long enough or enough sold to have any meaningful quantity in service. Hartech among other shops have shared pictures of them on some of the Porsche Facebook groups. Here is just one I grabbed just now:
Remember it's this same company that tells people it's ok to bore out their 06-08 blocks to change the IMS and they think it's ok for all that debris to go into the engine. They've conveniently removed off their YouTube channel that showed all the metal going in, but I'm sure many of you here have seen it. And what about the guy who had his engine fail after doing it - they said it couldn't have been the procedure. Engine had to be rebuilt and we fixed his block and offer this as a service with a part to correct the block even.
And since everyone's memory is quite short these days, I'd like to point out that Porsche's own replacement IMS bearing is a ceramic hybrid, just like our IMS Retrofit:
Wow, name calling right from the start, please, I'm a sensitive guy.
I believe the EPS bearing picture was posted in January? I just looked and don't see it on Hartech's page now. But the bearings and cage are intact. It does actually appear that other debris ran through it and it did not fail catastrophically as ball bearings do. That's what the inventor of the retrofit always says about all the ceramic bearing failures. It is NEVER the bearing failing, it is always "something else" or "installed wrong". There are "thousands" of cylindrical/roller bearings installed too, yet, aside from industry competitors (LN), there are no customer reported failures (unlike ceramic bearings) that I have found. If there are, please direct me.
Since the cylindrical/roller competition doesn't require a prequalification and any unqualified wannabe mechanic like me can just plop them in, shouldn't there be 100's of failures by now?
Regarding the Porsche ceramic bearing that WAS offered, my memory is not so short. This is the one that Mr. Raby stated it was offered for a very short period of time several years ago and he bought two, correct? This doesn't help the case for Ceramic bearings. Porsche saw fit to pull it and not offer it to their customers or dealers and actually preferred to not offer any bearing at all. Even their dealers won't install any bearing as a mater of course. A patent infringement perhaps? I don't recall that being discussed as an issue either.
I ask you, if your ceramic bearings are so great, then why the ****-poor warranty? Seriously, 24 months and 24k miles, with that kind of faith why bother with any warranty.
You can't even warranty it for the mileage life of a clutch
!
I ask you, why do you offer your RND roller bearing if they are so inherently bad by design and again with the poor warranty. it has the same thrust control as the others (regardless of your claim), not that it ever was a thrust application. Any "pre-qualification" required for the RND bearing? The competition doesn't require it, despite your finding one failure claim that is suspect.
To summarize: LN bearings equal maximum price, maximum labor installation, poorest warranty and, in case of failure, blame it on some other part that failed (but you do get a cute sticker).
I never said it was on Hartech's page. There is an IMS group and several engine building groups on FB with pictures like these taken from engines that were previously fitted with the EPS bearing. I'll be the first to say that maybe they were installed wrong or there was debris, however, on every single one you can see where the bearing has machined the flange and all of them have wear internally, point to a design flaw (Lee from Hartech has pointed out) knowing there have been several major changes to the EPS bearing since it was released. These are the newest revision:
The above pictures were from an engine sent to us by Speed Sport Tuning several years back. Engine was a rebuilt Vertex engine that they put in (at the customer's request) and engine failed in the first lap and no warranty.
Likewise, the engine that Vertex themselves bored out the case to replace the 06-08 bearing also failed and they said it was not the result of the work they did to the engine and we had to fix the block and the engine had to be rebuilt:
These are people who aren't on the forums, so you'll never see them here.
Although I have seen a few claims of failed Single Row Pro and Classic Dual Row IMS Retrofit bearings, I have yet to actually see one returned back to LN so I can send it to the bearing manufacturer for a failure analysis and actually verify is there was indeed a failure. What failures there have been (which I have never denied) have been are classic single row which was replaced by the Single Row Pro in 2014 once Jake came up with a procedure and the tools to be able to install the dual row bearing in its place. We have not made or sold a Classic Single Row IMS Retrofit since 2014, and all of these are beyond their service life at this point.
We supply IMS Retrofits and IMS Solutions to dealerships around the world. Most, if not all, the Porsche dealerships in Chicago purchase and install them, and were some of the first to do so. In fact, it was Porsche dealerships who jumped on board first since they knew it was a problem. I had a friend who worked as a tech and there was an internal discussion board for techs across the dealer network and the IMS was a hot topic there for years.
The 2/24 warranty we provide is standard aftermarket which goes for the clutch, flywheel, and every other component anyone purchases from Pelican or any other source, expect Porsche. Porsche doesn't offer a warranty on any part that isn't installed by a dealership. If the warranty is your selling point, the IMS Solution has a 5/60 and has been an option from us along side the retrofit for over 7 years.
SSF Auto Parts was getting requests for a roller bearing kit and was not happy with the other bearings offered. Jake and I had evaluated a roller bearing option when developing the IMS Retrofit and had a bearing already tested and picked out in the eventuality that we went down that route. Again, this is public knowledge and is probably on another post I previously made in this thread.
The RND bearing has the same pre-qualification requirements. Not every engine should have the IMS bearing replaced. I stand by that. The Porsche shop next door to us fails about 50% of the cars that come in for a bearing.
I'll repeat there are many shops installing bearings in cars that should not be fitted with a new bearing and an equal number of shops that aren't qualified to be doing this work in the first place, given the number of phone calls we get. Again that's why we have the pre-qualification and registration requirements. If someone isn't happy with this, it's a free world and there are other options out there that might be better for you.
And if you decide to go with an EPS, know what you are getting, like with boring out the block to change your 06-08 ims. The claims they made in their ads and on their website are downright false:
"The cylindrical bearings have over 12 times the load capacity of other ball bearing solutions making the EPS IMS bearing the clear choice."
When in fact, here are the load ratings of all the popular bearings used:
The factory single row 6204 bearing a dynamic load capacity of 2900# with thrust max load rating of 1450# (Factory single row & Pelican IMS)
The NJ or NU204 cylindrical bearing has a dynamic load capacity of 3750# with thrust max load rating of 375#
The custom dual row ceramic hybrid bearings used in both the Single Row Pro and Classic Dual Row IMS Retrofit has a dynamic load capacity of 4000# w/ thrust max load rating of 2000#.
The RND RS Roller's NUP204E bearing has a
5800# dynamic load capacity w
/ thrust max load rating
of 580#.
A deep groove ball bearing as currently used in the IMS Retrofit can take up to 50% of the dynamic load in thrust; a traditional cylindrical roller bearing with thrust control can only take up to 10% of the dynamic load in thrust.
I'll weigh in here just a little bit. DSC800 did make some good points.
Going back to the beginning, the reason why I walked away from all the association with sales of bearings, and etc was due to warranty. Charles and I had a bit of a disagreement about this, because I hate warrantees and didn't think that any of the products should have one- not even the IMS Solution. A good reason was I knew that a group of people would buy the product just to get a warranty, and in my experience I wanted to steer clear from that particular group of people. In those days the IMSR was young, and most people didn't even know that the process could be done. Those were the days here on RL where someone would say that they had their bearing replaced, and people would tell them that doing such a thing was impossible.
I believed that people should understand that this procedure was not something that the factory stood behind, and did not authorize.
I wanted no warranty, and instead of fighting over it, I considered my part was done, and I agreed to only continue training the Certified Installers of the products. The Certified Installer program was another that led to some challenges in the early days, since my idea was to only allow Certified Installers to perform the IMSR jobs. This would mean that 100% of the engines would need pre- qualification, and bearing registrations. I had limited experience with retail, and had only developed, and sold engines, so I parted ways with things and LN took it all over, including taking over my Aircooled engine retail parts division.
I cannot think of a single ceramic bearing failure that has occurred when the product was installed by a Certified Installer, the product was registered and the pre- qualification was carried out. I created this because I knew at the time that these engines had 24 modes of failure (now 31 modes) and that many of them would be confused as an IMSR issue, or would inflict damages to the IMSB that was fitted. I wanted to avoid issues and finger pointing at all costs, so going through hassles with the installs would just be a part of that. I still believe this today, and will only allow these same Certified Installers of IMSR products to perform remote fitments of Flat 6 Innovations engines as part of the "Premier" program. We make sure these installers are constantly re- trained, and that they have the right tools to do their jobs. I will be scheduling a training seminar with them to go over bore scoring evaluations in the next few weeks, since we have identified some additional indicators in the recent past that some of them have yet to be exposed to.
Most of the time, if an engine fails in N. America, it gets reported here at some stage. This includes those who have other bearing kits installed, so I have seen a fair share of failures that have gone unreported on these groups. The Certified Installers have removed a host of the opposing products that were in process of failing, usually leading to the engine needing to come apart. It is pretty much like anything, if you do enough, install enough, or build enough, mechanical things are going to fail. Those that have small numbers of installations have limited exposures to the chances of failures, due to the law of averages. When something has been installed in tens of thousands of engines all over the world, by installers of all backgrounds, many of which don't even read the instructions, you can expect a number of issues. This is proven by the number of engines that fail pre- qualification, and have VINs flagged by Certified Installers, only to go elsewhere to have the job done, with the VIN popping up again in the registration queue, clearly retrofitted when it had an issue that should have DQ'd it, and it did with a certified Installer who is mandated to follow the procedure verbatim.
Again, I'll state that I don't know of a single issue where an IMSR was fitted by a Certified Installer, then went on to have a failure. A good example of this is the 740 IMSR bearings of all flavors that were installed here at FSI, before I stopped doing the work to focus only on building engines.
Of these 740, none have failed.
100% of these were pre- qualified, and proven to be healthy, and keep in mind the oldest bearing fitments in the industry are included in this, since we did the very fist commercially installed IMSR procedures here, even before anyone knew it could be done.
This is exactly why I was so focused on no warrantees, and only having Certified Installers able to source the components for the retrofit. I believe the installer needs something to lose to be fully vested in what they are doing. As time went on the IMSR procedure has become like a brake job, with technicians racing to get the work done as fast as possible, not as well as possible. This poses two issues:
1- Technicians are paid on commission in lots of cases, and no matter how long it takes them to do a job, they get paid the labor rate that the job calls for. The universally accepted time for a classic IMSR is 10 hours of labor, so if the tech can do the job in 5 hours, he still gets paid for 10 house, and he has 5 hours left over to quickly get to the next job. This is how some techs can get paid for 70 hours of work per week, when they only work 40 hours. This promotes neglect, no matter what repair job is being carried out, and it is a horrible part of the automotive repair industry- yet, perfectly legal, and universally accepted nationwide.
2- Technicians don't want to find issues that "down" the engine from an IMSR. If they do look hard enough to find an issue, that means that they are losing 10 hours of labor for their paycheck just because they did the right thing. This means that issues where debris is found in the oil/ filter can be conveniently "overlooked" or "weren't there when the IMSR was done" do happen. Shop owners also lose when an engine is DQ'd, so they don't push the process very hard unless they have something to lose, like a Certified Installer rating that they had to work for, and can instantly lose with just one infraction.
As time goes on I have seen shops like "truck services", Midas Muffler, and even full service car washes installing these products. This is because the process has become widely popular, and people are looking for the cheapest price for a retrofit to be carried out. They go with a more expensive, and proven product thinking that matters most, then they have it haphazardly installed, compromising everything.
Also lots of dealers do, and have installed these bearings, of all flavors. None of them are Certified Installers, and never will be. In fact one dealer sent out a mailer to all of their customers that basically said that their engine would fail without being retrofitted, and this was when the only bearing kit available came from LN. We still have a copy of it around here somewhere. Dealers still do this work today, and one contacted us last week to get some paid technical consulting when the engine "skipped time" during an IMSR procedure, when they failed to lock the camshafts.
Finally, what I have learned is people don't complain when their choice to go a cheaper/ less proven route does not work for them. They know that if they go public with a failure of a product that was cheaper, and haphazardly installed, that the community will likely tell them that they got what they paid for. I have seen this happen with engines over, and over again. If I have an issue the buyer can instantly get traction in a group because the engine was the most proven, best, and most expensive thing they could buy. If and when it has an issue people try to prove that with this one issue there's others that are viable. By the opposite token, the cheap guys that have failures over, and over again don't get the press, because buyers don't want to admit that the following was correct, and they should have bought a better engine.
People know how the forums work. They will only admit that they made a mistake IF they bought the more universally accepted, more expensive, and more exclusive product. If they go cheap, they admitting in a public forum that they made a mistake that was driven by their wallet, and they don't want to admit this. In private I see this happen all the time, with both engines, and products that are not limited to Porsche's. As a product gains traction, and becomes exclusive, more and more people want to support that its not the only way to go. They are fast to support something else that is cheaper, easier to install, and has a better warranty, but they are slow to admit that their decision didn't work out for them. Often the threads go quiet, the bragging stops, and the person climbs under a rock, only to privately share their story with shops that document it, and get it back to me. This is really good when the person chooses a username that's the same as their Gmail address.
Failures are happening, and there's more to the story than what is posted to forums.
I just figured I'd weigh in here with some back story, and some facts from my perspective. I am positive that if all shops doing this work were bound to the same constraints with IMSR procedures that the Certified Installers have, that no issues would have been experienced with any IMSR procedure, given the product is replaced at the specified intervals, and serviced as directed..
I have followed the FB IMS page for some time. That original photo was from Lee Jenkins (Hartech). It actually looks half inserted, which seems impossible. That bearing indicates wear that could be troublesome but not enough info was provided to be called a failure and he didn't. In fact, it could have been other debris and that bearing saved the engine. If this is the only example you have I STILL have not seen a conclusive failure of ANY cylindrical bearing. You are the competition so ANY undocumented failures can only be anecdotal. To put this in perspective, on that same FB page for March there is a catastrophic failure of an LN dual row with photos and only 20k miles. You did not respond to that person yet you responded to an other person and said they "were full of it" for posting so often. And there was another report in March too. So that's one documented failure and two anecdotals in ONE month for the ceramic bearing. Because of these kind of reports (there are several on RL as well) I put zero value on a ceramic bearing back when I shopped for a 996.
Do you see what I'm getting at? The worst reports are catastrophic failures for ceramic bearings vs pointing to "wear marks" for cylindrical bearings, but with unknown cause. I almost want to see a failure of a cylindrical bearing. I don't really but if there is a failure I'd like to know how they fail.
As far as the load rating this is a non-issue. EPS* indicated a lower load rating on their first bearing, then they increased the roller diameter so they have a custom larger size designed specifically for application to Porsche and this is a huge credit to them. You don't know what the load rating is. It has 11 rollers vs 8 ***** so it surely is a multiple much greater than any ball bearing assembly plus the cage is much more robust. I actually talked to an engineer (I am not one) about other benefits of roller bearings related to how they fail in a gradual way but I'm trying to keep my word count down plus if you ask me for specifics I won't recall the technical terms. As far as the "boring of the case" another non-issue and deflection from what we are talking about. They tried to come up with a solution and you are applying it to the bearing issue. I am ONLY looking at the process and cost to replace a bearing and then the odds it will be successful. If stuffing a jelly donut on the IM shaft did the job I'd evaluate that option too.
*I do not want to be a commercial for EPS - I think ANY cylindrical bearing with a track record is the best option, but EPS does appear to be the leader, have been on the market for 8 years and you referenced them. Maybe RND roller bearings are the best, but I haven't seen data either way.
Comparing your 24/24 warranty to other "component parts" is just weak. Your $900 bearing is more than double the cost of a basic Pelican bearing and you ONLY match their warranty?! Why not have faith in your product enough to match the EPS warranty. Even Porsche's original 4 year/ 50k miles is double yours. Your warranty is so detailed and specific it is unlikely anyone would be able to, or has, successfully made a claim anyway.
I appreciate the exchange. My opinion has not changed: Cylindrical (roller) bearing cost a third less, dont require an expensive "prequalification", can be easily self installed so no "certified installer", have a much better warranty, and I still have not seen a documented catastrophic failure. Ceramic bearings cost more, essentially require an expensive prequalification, shouldn't be self installed, have a poor warranty, have a failure rate that appears about equal to OEM and tend to fail catastrophically. I haven't forgot about the IMS Solution either, but sorry, you just priced it too much for my consideration. Price not considered it's probably the best option although it's a little new and I'm not too fond of routing oil outside of my engine. The jelly donut option is off the table though.
My attention span is waning so I'll just make a quick response. First, developing any solution was GENIUS, BRILLIANT, huge KUDOS! But, jumping to the IMS Solution, it's just too expensive. It's an assortment of parts with a product cost of a couple, maybe three hundred tops. Really, in volume, more than $200 and someone is not doing their job. Even if you spent $500k on development that was covered long ago and I'm guessing royalties are generous 10-20%. Huge guesses on my part, but at $1900 along with this expensive "certified installer" program, I don't see the value vs other options that essentially have similar results.
You do have a way of blaming "something else" for ceramic bearing failures. A chain guide piece, thrust bearing particle, etc. NO ONE is claiming that for a cylindrical. They must be more robust.
Should my IMSB begin to fail and I catch it in time, I want the product that will fix THAT problem. Change the oil a couple times, inspect sump a couple times and NOT default to a full engine rebuild.
I want a product I can install myself and not have a warranty that excludes me in the first paragraph. Non-mechanic me installed mine myself along with a bunch of other stuff and it was very rewarding.
Forums tend to concentrate and magnify problems. People go there with their problems and complain. This is why the Twitter mob is 2% of the population yet get so much attention. Same for RL.
If there was a cylindrical failure, it would certainly be on RL with photos.
I don't get not wanting a warranty at all: "here's out great product, it's better than Porsche, but we don't stand behind it". The LN 24/24 warranty is essentially worthless anyway.
People won't report cheaper failures?! That's a head scratcher for sure. How many complaints of failed $200 expansion tanks are there? Failed AOS? Cheap WP's There are tons!
The cylindrical options are NOT cheap. They are still 200% markup or greater. Competitors definitely benefit from your highest of high pricing.
Forums always have their sponsors that have an advantage. I'm on an off road forum that was sponsored by King shocks so they are over represented with vendors and employees so forum members spend $2k+ on shocks to get to Starbucks and talk about how great they are. But RL is different. You guys dominate more than any other forum. RL is frequently called the "marketing dept" of LN, FSI, Driven (and now Speediagnostics, Blackstone is not good enough for us anymore). I've seen members degraded by presenting counter opinions. Some posters even warn against making counter comments in their OP. Others say "just buy the solution" ad nauseum, regardless of all I've talked about here, they are true cheerleaders. On post like this one I fully expect to get shouted down by at least one of them and surprised I haven't been yet. Quite a cult status you have achieved, but it does detract from a free exchange of ideas and considering there is more than one "solution".
How about this - you developed the RND bearing, correct? How many failures? Any reference to those failures? I'm going hazard a guess it is a great product as I have seen no failures, although still too expensive, still a poor warranty, but if it is as good as I think it is why not highlight it as a best option. I would pick it over any ball bearings. I'm guessing there's not enough money in it. Always follow the money, right?
There are certainly anecdotal ones I've seen posts for. And yes, I have to be skeptical because every M96 engine failure is always blamed on the IMS bearing. Although you aren't happy with the answer I have given already on this, if the installation is qualified and bearing registered, there is little for us to argue about. But there is a difference between someone making a post about a failure anonymously and actually substantiating such claim and going through the process to investigate such claim. As far as not replying to someone on FB, I'm no longer on any and has been that way since at least March. If someone has a problem, they should contact LN directly.
As far as the EPS/Vertex bearing appearing to not be installed completely, that's how they all are. Rather than having a bearing that is model specific, they use a longer bearing that hangs out of the shaft and by that same token, they do not use any retention device to hold the bearing in place, like a snap ring or equivalent. It's a universal product for both dual and single row bearing ims shafts.
The photos I posted with wear were from an engine that literally had less than an hour of runtime on a freshly rebuilt engine assembled by Vertex that they did not warranty for the customer. The reason the bearing had that wear is that when you torque the EPS bearing assembly, it locks up and will self clearance itself. We purchase one of their bearing kits when they were first released to have our bearing engineer and several other experts evaluate it (as I'm sure they have done of ours) and made this observation along with several others.
I do see what you are getting at. Just as you stated, the photos I shared from the EPS bearing only had wear and wasn't a catastrophic failure. As I said, there have been no catastrophic failures of any of our dual row bearings that are documented. I have seen one with wear in the races and it was swapped out for an IMS Solution for the customer.
I posted the load ratings for all the bearings, the EPS one included, in a previous post. Yes, having extra roller count does make a huge difference, but not 5, 10, or more times stronger. I stand by the fact that their claims are false and grossly exaggerated. The RND bearing is an expanded load capacity roller bearing with added rollers, so that does boost the strength significantly which does put at the strongest of the bearing options out there (other than say a roller bearing to fit the 06-08's 6305 bearing which would be even stronger just because of the size of the bearing).
Again, not to change the topic, but I do point out there is a huge difference between the way a roller bearing and a ball bearing handles thrust. The roller bearing can only handle 10% of total load as thrust, where a ball bearing can handle 50%. All thrust is controlled by the IMS bearing as the plain bearing on the other side cannot handle thrust. Roller bearings also typically can only handle thrust in one direction, however the bearing selected for the RND kit is unique in that the center race is captive and can handle thrust loads in both directions internally. Something that no other roller kit can do.
And no, there have been no reported failures of the RND roller bearing kit either.
Most every product sold requires registration for activation of warranty, if one is even provided. Yes, our warranty is indeed specific, but not difficult to comply with. For the effort of registering the bearing, we do inspect and photograph the original bearing and maintain a publicly accessible database for these installations along with any paperwork submitted at time of registration.
As far as I am aware, the Pelican IMS kit is not offered with any warranty and back when Wayne introduced it, I believe he had stated a 3 year / 36k service interval for said bearing, although I don't see any specifics to that posted on the Pelican site.
Here is the Porsche warranty, right off their website:
2-year warranty for genuine Porsche parts, exchange parts and accessories, which are used or sold outside of warranty work. The warranty period for Porsche parts which are used in connection with warranty work ends contemporaneously with the warranty period for the purchased item which has become defective;
What is missing is that their warranty is valid only when a Porsche dealer does the work.
For a part to have a warranty at all in the automotive aftermarket is rare. Anything you buy from JE, CP-Carrillo, Mahle Motorsport, and countless other companies, even parts costing several times that of an IMS Solution, are sold as-is, where-is, with no warranty. If a warranty is provided, it's up to the shop doing the install to warranty their own work, so it's in their best interest to not cut corners and put blinders on. That's why we are so strict with our requirements when providing a warranty as we know what is actually going on in the field.
Jake typically doesn't deal with other shops and end consumers since he doesn't sell parts. Even though LN doesn't sell IMS bearings for the most part to shops or end users direct as they are almost exclusively sold through wholesale channels, we do get the calls when installations go south, and that's often on a daily basis. Like I said, not every engine is healthy enough to have a bearing installed and not every shop or person doing the work should really be doing so. This reinforces why we do what we do.
The dialogue is welcome even though I do not expect to change your opinion. I myself am still here as is Jake where the competition is nowhere to be found. Vertex (and a few others with their own ims kits) spammed a few times and were asked valid questions about their products and did not care enough to answer or participate and contribute in any meaningful way to the Porsche community. Many of you were not members of this forum going back as long as Jake and me, but we had to run the gauntlet and faced an almost constant barrage until about the time of the class action lawsuit. And for the record, just because we're sponsors, that doesn't mean we get admin privileges or get to silence people.
As far the costs of making these parts, the estimates thrown out here are far below our actual costs. There are other cheaper options out there being direct to consumer. I'll repeat, the wholesalers and shops make more than we do. That's the nature of the business and selling through wholesale channels. We accepted losing a huge chunk of our profits in exchange for streamlined operations which also gives shops faster access to product. We can focus on manufacturing the parts and they do the distribution. For shops, this is a bonus as many get daily deliveries from wholesalers and some even can get parts delivered within an hour or two which reduces their need to stock parts and also minimizes delays with completing jobs.
Thanks for the detailed response and your time. Anything further and we'd be in the weeds. Yes, my opinion is about the same, but I consider the RND bearing a stronger option than before because I believe, as you stated, there are no failures and I have found none. Maybe other's reading this exchange can benefit too.
Btw, I'm pretty generous with my costing estimates. It was a big part of my career. For example, the original EPS bearing (NJ204) is less than $20 wholesale for single units. Ceramics are a fair amount more, but I just use $50 to not argue. The carrier flange likely cost more than the bearing. I'd almost be happy purchasing an NJ204 equivalent that would fit the OEM flange but could you imagine selling a car and telling the buyer "I purchased an IMSB on Amazon for $20, so no worries". There are also hybrid ceramic roller bearings but I've never heard them brought up but that's a whole other discussion.
�..I thought I would add my experience here.
I own a 2004 Porsche Boxster S �50 Years of the 550 Spyder Edition� that I bought in 2015 with 25,000 miles on her.
I immediately shipped her to Jake Raby and had him install the �IMS Solution� and a new water pump, A/O separator, and a few other items.
She has 65,000 miles on her as of June 1, 2021.
Zero issues.
Expensive?
Priceless!
What value can you place on peace of mind?
When my wife and I are in the middle of the Canyonlands National Park �Needles District�, on a Sunday, and don�t have to worry about the car grenading, that is priceless.
If you have any engineering knowledge at all, how could you look at the IMS Solution design compared to the rest and NOT immediately conclude it is superior?
An oil fed plain bearing is inherently more robust than a roller or ball bearing-ceramic or steel.
Ask yourself this-Why is every bearing on every crankshaft and every piston big and little end, a plain bearing on every engine in the world today?
Expensive? You bought a mid-engine, German, exotic car. She is NOT a Hyundai Veloster.
Get busy livin�.
The value of "peace of mind" for me was $600. I saved $3500 over your choice and deployed that capital elsewhere. We both did all that other stuff but I used my labor. Both our "solutions" have "zero issues" to date and have been in the market for about the same time. The "solution" I picked has the same track record as the RND roller AND the IMS Solution but without the egregious warranty & qualification requirements.
You are not a mechanical engineer either. If you were you would know that a plain bearing is the only effective way to float a crank, otherwise you would have to split the bearing or go modular on the crank. Both have been done, even a Porsche racing engine, but are very expensive and VERY bad in practice. Even F1 doesn't do it. Roller bearings work great for straight shafts, axles, transmissions, etc, and the IMS.
I didn't buy a mid-engine car, you did. Minor detail but neither are exotic nor expensive.
The bearing I bought, at $600, has a perfect record just as all the roller bearings do, but it WAS VERY expensive. It is a $20 bearing, and a few $ of other parts packaged up. They are not cheap nor the cheapest but they are the cheaper option yet deliver the results of the MOST expensive option. The ceramic bearing is the most popular, it is MUCH more expensive and is failing more and more. Performance wise it is about equal to the Pelican bearing, IMO.
Lastly, your bearing is now 6 years old with 40k miles and you are out of warranty. Because peace of mind is so "priceless" to you, you need to get it done again. It might last, but it might not and "priceless" means "priceless", right?
*edit - meaning the value of a bearing with a warranty is greater than the value of one without, but not challenging the "no service interval" claim.
Best,
You clearly "listened to reply" on this one, or you fail to properly understand the IMS Solution.
The IMS Solution has no service interval. It does not need to be "replaced again" as stated in your reply.
That's all.
Forgive the �mid-engine� mistake. I had not read the initial post. I was late to the party. Sorry for that.
As far as the bearings go, the �IMS Solution� is one and done. You never need to replace it again. As a matter of fact, if you buy another M96 engine vehicle, you can transfer it over.
We have a long enough track record as of June, 2021, to plainly see that the �IMS Solution� is, indeed, the only permanent �one and done� fix for these M96 IMS issues.
I am happy that you have had a successful resolution for yourself, but as a service to the collective, all the forum-ites out there deserve to know the facts as new folks start buying these cars on the used car market.
That�s the problem with �cheap� old Porsches. New folks come into the market and scoop up a $10,000 Porsche and then they are punched in the face by a catastrophic failure because they tried to live on the cheap.
Cheers.
Priceless.
With everything you said, this is the only piece that matters. You're not going to purchase an LN product, so why keep beating your own dead horse? None of the questions are pertinent to your own situation because your mind is/was made up, and you've made a decision.
The "IMS solution" messes with the oil distribution in your engine, like every other
oil feed
IMS bearing. The IMSB might be fine but you are putting other bearings at risk due to stealing oil. You might also have exaggerated pooling issues causing oil pressure losses.
I'm an engineering, used to work for SKF and I've reversed engineered the IMS bearing design. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE ORIGINAL DESIGN. no need for roller bearing. Read that as many times you need to believe it. I've written about this in the other IMS sticky thread.
The original bearing dies because it was faulty from manufacturing(as stated in the class action suit) or the owner have miss treated his engine. A new bearing cost you less than 20$. ONLY replace if yours shows any signs of wear, otherwise leave in place.
You have GOT to be kidding.
It only �shows signs of wear� when it grenades your engine!!!
How the heck are you supposed to check it for �wear�?
You have to drop the transmission to see the darn thing.
You are outta your mind.
As far as ��messes up the oil distribution in the engine�, well your �check for wear� comment ought to be enough for everyone to know you have zero credibility.
Wow.
Just�..wow.
Objection, this is speculation.
I spent a solid year testing this element of the IMS Solution. I used oil taken from 7 different places in the primary oil system before determining that just filtered oil that was taken at the SPOFA location (and included as a novel art in US Patent 8,992,089) proved to make zero impact on the engine oil pressure ANYWHERE within the primary oil system of the engine.
Due to internal clearances of the IMS Solution, less than 1cc of oil per minute travels through the IMS Solution feed hose which was verified with a data logged fluid flowrator. This was based off using a 5/40 engine oil, with an oil temperature of 230F.
If 1cc of oil volume loss makes a difference to the remainder of your engine internals, you have more of a problem than the IMS.
When oil was taken from the SPOFA location zero measurable loss was data logged in both volume, and pressure, even at the furthest extremity of the oil system, which is the B1 valve train.
I even played with an electric oil pump to feed oil to the IMS Solution, from an external reservoir that collected secondary oil to provide the film of oil to the IMS Solution totally separated from that of the primary oil system to further prove this.
I also made a potentiometer to read the position of the oil pressure relief valve, and log that data, to watch the pressure relief open, and close at various temperatures with different IMS Solution bearing clearances, oil viscosities, and temperatures to dial in the perfect clearance.
been there, done that. You haven't.
"typical Nick bonehead hypothesis ", his latest being the main oil pump by-passes into the sump.
The IMS Solution is clearly the best design available hands down. No If's, and's, or but's..
You can check it when you change clutch. The reality is they hardly every fail now days. Your way more likely to have an accident taking your engine out than the bearing grenading. Your way more likely to have a bodge IMSB bearing replacement also. Read the other thread to learn more. Ask any source you think in credible about their calculations of original and their replacement(Hint, they will give you ZERO numbers). Post it here and I can tear it apart.
1cc(or whatever the real flow is), is more than zero. So, no, it's not speculations, it's the reality. Jake, of all the elaborate testriggs you claim to have built, can you post some pictures of any of them?
Just go ahead and put your $20 SKF bearing in and shut up about it, stop giving people bad advice.
You can pull your trans ever year and "feel your imsb" and never catch it failing, but "you do you".
Just a 3% failure rate on something like an imsb is HUGE in the automotive world where parts normally have a 0.03% failure rate.
I worked for a large FoMoCo dealership for two decades in the 70's-90's that sold 300 cars a month, and if there were a 3% failure rate on "anything" it was huge, much less something that destroys the engine like an imsb.
Interesting discussion that flared up again. I'll introduce myself; my name is Boxman,
called an idiot by some
after
suffering a $700 FVD Brombacher IMSB failure
but
catching it in time
, who then decided to not go ludicrous 2000$+14000$-*****-to-the-walls but rather
fit a 70$ off-the-shelf
generic and sealed
dual row bearing, sourced by yours truly, in his 996 after thorough cleaning.
This was over 2.5 years and over 20.000km ago.
'Some' people want you to believe that that was more like winning the lottery than doing science, and that my engine would not have lasted 1000km because 'glitter' will come and destroy your gonads. Yet here we are, and I am not even the only one.
'Some' would not even have sold me their 800$ bearing unless I had taken my engine apart, had it ultrasonically cleaned and basically rebuilt ad 14.000$ first, because their bearing was so good and strong that it 'only' needed that amount of work to not grenade immediately.
People can laugh and ridicule mentions of using off-the-shelf parts instead of a heavily marked-up set.. Yet here we are, with my 70$ off-the-shelf replacement apparently doing what neither the 800$ nor the >2000$ commercial option is capable of reliably doing in my dirty, foul and impure non-rebuilt engine.
Yes, I will document the inspection at the 40.000km service interval.
If you pay much more than $20* you are just being ripped off, that is the reality. You can pay as much as you want, it won't be any better, you are just paying the middle man.
Porsche was unfortunate to have a few bad bearings in production, other mfg also have problems with poorly produced parts. That doesn't mean the design and use of a ball bearing is wrong.
Some of the "advice" here (like removing the grease seal) is directly bad for the longevity of the bearing.
If you have read my investigation I arrived at pretty much the same conclusion as Porsche: Generally don't do anything. If you have the gear box off for whatever reason you can check it and replace if it's worn.
Look in this thread how many have pulled a perfectly fine bearing, gives a nice overview of the misadvise people are getting. This IMS thing is way overhyped.
*for a 6204 bearing.
Boxman glad your risk taking paid off for you. If you place a low regard/value on the engine, you can save a lot of money taking risks like that.But advising people to take those kinds of risks is a recipe for disaster.
I survived a near miss by lightening one time that knocked me to the ground while putting my boat away in a lightning storm.
Nick, using a pressure oil feed to the IMSB has no consequences to the oiling system. I did this over 40 years ago to pressure feed a turbocharger (and set 2 World Records with it) and has been done millions of times since to just about every engine design on the planet with no consequences to the oiling system... You are nuts and know nothing of what you talk about..
Funny how every non-LN fix is classified as a 'risk' and winning the lottery. I do not consider myself special enough to win lotteries, these decisions are made based on simple mechanical understanding and reasonable risk-reward. What is your basis for calling my approach a 'recipe for disaster'? That implies a near-certain failure rate where I just got 'lucky', is this what you mean, with your almost-struck-by-lightning remark? Can you substantiate any of that? Can you also point me to some anecdotal stories that went (roughly) my route and had a catastrophic failure afterwards? Basically the same approach as mine.
Do not take the confirmation bias too lightly. With how people are fearmongered into installing an LN bearing + pre-qual, these forums by definition are not heavily populated by people who go my route, regardless of their bearing having grenaded before it. Then again, can you point me to abundant failures of the Pelican bearing approach?
Just because this is an LN engineering echochamber, doesn't mean that not coughing up 14k $ for fixing a 1% failure mode
of the original IMSB
(for the dual row at least) permanently is suddenly a 'risky' decision. Especially when these engines D-chunk left and right at the same time. You might fix 1 failure mode, but this engine has countless.
So please substantiate what anecdotal evidence (of other forummers unaffiliated with LNE) you are basing calling my approach 'risky' and 'disastrous' upon.
Yes, I have seen that done successfully and also seen it done unsuccessfully. Yes it is very risky and the owner must have a low regard for the engine.IMHO it is bad advise.
It would be similar to taking a 1/2 teaspoon of brake shavings from a brake lathe and dropping it down the oil fill tube. If you did that to 10 M96 Porsche engines, even after flushes and multiple oil and filter changes, how many do you think would be unaffected by it? Would your answer be 10?
Show me the unsuccessful stories, please.
Quantify �very risky� please.
No offense, but your statements are baseless, grounded in gut feeling and nothing more, until the time you quantify them and provide sources for your anecdotal evidence.
I have no low regard for the engine, rather I was very meticulous in the process. You are entitled to your opinion but let�s not mistake that opinion for a fact.
This again, hm. You are assuming broken or clogged oil filters, starting in subzero temperatures and/or malfunctioning bypass valves. We�ve been over this.
Added to the sump, with oil filter system in good shape, the grit will not see the journal bearings. It will not see the IMSB since it is sealed. Frankly, it will eat an LN Retrofit in no time, who would have thought...
If grit in the sump was so incredibly critical for this engine, why bother with the filter at all? According to you it�s game over whenever any wear metal hits your sump oil.
Then again, what would your answer be? How many engines? You seem uncomfortable quantifying your statements, why is that?
I was really looking for to your answer, it was a simple question that you have undoubtedly though a lot about and should have been able to give a 1-10 answer to very easily, why did you avoid it?
No I don't carry around evidence/pictures to back up my statements unless I am going to court to be an Expert Witness, so your out of luck.
Yes the debris from a failed IMSB will be thrown around by the IMS and timing chains and land on the lower part of the cylinder while the piston is up top and will lodge between the piston and cylinder wall rubbing up and down even before it makes it to the sump Then it gets picked up by the pick-up tube and carried to the oil pump where it is crushed between the gears before finally making it to the oil filter to be caught.Even then the filter will only catch particles of 20 microns and bigger.This is not opinion, it is a fact.
Yes I have seen this damage from the debris with my own eyes.
Now how about that 1-10 opinion?
I'll wait for your anecdotal evidence - a link to a thread will suffice - and otherwise bury the discussion with you right here. I think I asked you to substantiate your claims before you asked me about your hypothetical, but you had not answered any of my questions yet - fair is fair, no?
Debris laden oil, even if you have it, doesn't flow upstream of oil flow, period. Go have a look at the diagrams yourself. Splash might make it to the cam sprockets and no further - the IMSB is mostly isolated from the crankshaft with splashguards (
quick source of a teardown for you
), and splash will not make it to the cylinder walls like that. And even if you would hit the astronomically correct bump and a piece of debris (metal, tensioner pads) makes it on there, there are still pressurized oil squirters constantly providing a flow of absolutely clean oil to the walls which washes that away in just 1 stroke. If you had actually seen the block from the inside, you would not have made the rest of your outlandish claim.
yea you won't me tp prove what I already know, put the burden on me, yet you have so many opinions, but when I try to coral your opinion into something specific that can be analyzed, like how many engines out of 10 do you think would suffer no consequences from 1/2 teaspoon of debris, you balk.
Yes the IMSB debris will make it into the cylinders mainly number 6 because it is closest to the IMSB. You should have seen the 40AE with 30k miles on it with a failed IMSB, Number 6 cylinder was scratched all to hell.
Not only will the cylinders get scratched but it will travel up the timing chain to the bank 1 head and go into the bank 1 scavenge pump and scratch it all up, all this before going into the sump and oil pump and finally the oil filter.
And if your not really up on debris damage it can do even in particle sizes smaller than the filter can catch, the most damaging partical size for bearings like rod and crank bearings is 10 microns. 10 microns will not be caught by the filter, is too small to lodge outside the bearing, too big to just flush through the bearing clearance, but just right to be trapped in the bearing and cause damage.
You can choose to ignor these facts and consider yourself lucky, but repeating it might influence 10 others to ignor the facts and would be the same as giving your 1-10 opinion as a 10 meaning that your opinion is that 1/2 teaspoon of debris poured down the oil fill tube would cause no harm if you just flush it out and change the oil a few times.
Bad advice
I will not waste my efforts on someone who only asks questions in return but never answers any to begin with, yet attacks his opponent for not answering as a result of that. I know your type. You balk first, then tell the other they balk
. Little substance, usually.
You answer my questions, and I'll tell you how many engines I think will die.
You won't, so nice day to you.
Sue I will answer any question, we will take turns, but don't ask for "evidence" like in a court room. Or third party stuff, just you and me and facts and knowledge.You can ask for a fact or an opinion. GO
The questions were already there, just read back. You either answer them or you don't, just know that your unwillingness to provide any source for your claims is not a valid defense, for it is merely a cop-out. I highlighted them for you in my self-quote above. You didn't / wouldn't answer them, so I repeated them one post later:
show us those unsuccessful stories and quantify what you mean with "risky" and in what context to read that struck-by-lightning remark.
Quantify means put a number to how risky. Certain to fail? A 0.1% chance to fail? Within a year or within the next 100.000 km? You get the point.
'm more than happy to address your question, if you don't cop-out.
Wait, just one question at a time....and no I'm not going to look up "evidence" for you, you either believe me or not, You can even call it a "lie" if you see fit.
Maybe we should start out with presenting our Curriculum Vitae, what is yours?
Nah mate, I'll pass on your little kindergarten dance. You have nothing to show, that's okay. My questions were clear, you continue to dodge them, try not to be so surprised about my unwillingness to answer any of your questions in return.
"Either believe me or not" - well that's an easy one. I have little reason to believe loose claims from randoms on the internet at face value, especially if they actively refuse to substantiate them when asked. I don't consider you an exception, hope you can live with that
I doubt this conversation will go anywhere constructive so I have no intention of continuing it - you're behaving like a child, to be honest. Have a good one anyway.
Yea, well I figured you would cop out. No Curriculum Vitae to substantiate your stance I see...
And you trying to ask a buck of questions at once to deflect and not get cornered into a definitive stance. You are just a person who got lucky once, and got a pat on the back, now trying your luck again to get a pat on the back for being smart, but no dice from me.Your stance and opinion is Bad. I gave many facts, none of which you denied except the saying the debris can't get to the cylinders, (which is a lie). So just feel lucky and be done with it.
If you were really interested in "evidence" there is an old thread on here where someone failled doing just what you did as evidence, and NO I will not go looking for it just for you. You are too lazy to do the work yourself..
Huh? Not allowed to discuss after I've made my decision. I gotta re-read the rules to find that one.
Your situation (I followed the links) and spirited exchange with Porschetech3 solidifies my belief that any ball bearing is the poorest choice. An M96 can make non-IMSB metal that can circulate in the sump and this metal can take out the IMSB ball bearing, which pretty much means the entire engine. Think about a Variocam pad failure and the chain hitting metal that otherwise might not be terminal. A sealed ball bearing is probably a better choice but subject to seal failure for reasons discussed.
Explained to me by a mech engineer in summary IIRC: a ball bearing, having a single point of contact with the race, once it has any damage, that damage will hit the race over and over, only getting worse. A roller bearing or plain bearing, having a cumulative contact point area many times greater, if damaged that single point generally doesn't get worse, at least not to the point of self destruction. Also these bearings are more likely to fail over a longer period of time due to a stronger carrier, more bearings and in case of failure, the bearings take up more than 180* so the shaft is less likely to go wild.
IMS Solution = No failures. Cylindrical (roller bearings) = No failures. Both many thousands of installations so the statistics are valid. I will say that if the IMS Solution was approved and warrantied for self installation it would be a best option worthy of a premium price however prequal and installation at $150 hr are not a best option for me. I bought my 996 to wrench myself for enjoyment (and therapy). Avoid the indy and never go to the dealer I say, so far so good.
Lastly (for this post), I highly doubt there is any oil distribution risk. I'm pretty sure the inventor R&D'd that to death. Having oil leave the engine at the very bottom of a street car does bother me a little though.
Seriously? The more you talk, the more you remove all doubt.
You need to stop, Boxman. You keep talking in circles.
Trying to compare yourself and your knowledge with Skip (PorscheTech3) is a fool's errand.
Who are we to believe? You, a person that says he's named "user 63031" and called an idiot OR a real person that hasn't had a problem sharing his real name and his real 40+ years of experience in automotive mechanics... more than a decade of that time with Porsche racing and as a Gold Master Tech? A person that just invented a Porsche part that will save a countless number of M9X engines from AOS associated engine failure?
https://ultimateaos.com/
Seriously Boxman?
B3freak, you're the resident internet-expert of this forum. Remember that time you tried to tell me how sealed ball bearings are greased?
Maybe we need to clear that you're also working for the aftermarket making money off selling these overpriced bearings, so that people know you're biased in the question.
That's a lot of ad-hominem to hide the fact that you address absolutely nothing, haha. You do you.
I have no reason to stop addressing this topic so long as cop-out's like Flat 6 Innovations
et al
, who are always overly verbose and sometimes aggressively defending their product,
suddenly
do a 180 degree in their approach and turn to complete radio silence so that they don't have to discuss the inherent weaknesses of their product, like in the
other thread
where I pointed out that his glass bearing that was installed in an otherwise pristine engine needed immediate replacement after that engine shed a small amount of ferrous debris following a track day. I find that sudden silence telling.
Oh, we're going down memory lane? Ok, I'll play...
You worked as a janitor for SKF, you loved taking pictures of aircraft, and then tried to become the resident mechanical expert of all things Porsche here on Rennlist.
Way to go Nick. Give yourself a metal!
Boxman, I've tried to see your side of the story like a lot of people, but if you think it's wise to install a cheap "$70 bearing" back in the car, go for it! Just don't expect groves of people to rally around you as virtual cheerleaders. We don't even know who you are. You'll respond and say, "That's irrelevant!" However, when you're trying to compare your knowledge with people that have spent the last 20+ years dealing with these issues, it is relevant.
I'm often slightly amused when people are more interested in a 'knowledge pissing contest' than discussing the specific issues at hand. I'm not interested in 'comparing my knowledge' to porschetech3, lol. I care not for anyone's background. I care for the topic at hand and the arguments provided. "I'm smart" or "I have all this experience so I'm always right" or other appeals to authority don't fly for obvious reasons. That said, when silence ensues from those otherwise extremely vocal and 'ultra-knowledgeable' people as soon as the finger is put on a sore spot, then that is telling.
Why would you need to pull out appeals to 'status', CV's and references (and ad-hominems, the grown-up version of what once was "name-calling" on the playground as a last resort before stomping your feet in frustration) as the only defense against some very simple and easily understood notions? If I'm such an idiot, then it should be child's play to poke the holes in the reasoning and explanations I shared. I find those sudden cop-outs and evasions telling..
1. because I or anybody else doesn't know who you are, what is your experiance/knowledge
2 it would save time in getting to the bottom by asking questions to on on your level, what ever that is
3 to see if your quoting things from personal experience, some you learned from a third party, or something you read
4 a little knowledge with a big ego can be a dangerous thing because you don't know what you don't know
5 i have little patience to try and figure out your knowledge level or experience level is to ask questions on your level that would reveal your faulty opinions and assumptions
6 You believe the oil filter can catch ALL the debris from a failing IMSB
Haha, why pretend to suddenly be so accommodating to me and my 'level', especially when so hostile in your other posts? Just rip me a new one publicly at whatever level you feel comfortable, if I'm so glaringly wrong. This pretense is such a sophism to evade answering. Besides, you already copped out before playing the 'derail-an-argument-by-invoking-phallic-measurement-rituals'-card. I'm not here to throw mud or derail the topic into some personal vendetta - we were already done, have a good one mate
I need to know your knowledge/experience level so I can judge [EDITED BY MODERATOR] when I get you cornered, just to stop you from spreading bad advice and wrong assumptions. Like you saying the oil filter will catch ALL debris from a failing IMSB, telling people not to worry about it. You have I great way of deflecting and side stepping the direct questions,(and asking mutiple questions at once0 and with your "mystery background" that cannot be assessed or evaluated.
And yes it feels personal to me as a professional when people like you make wrong claims and assumptions about important topics than can effect the longevity of the engines., "pretending" to be knowledgeable..
You, on the other hand you may not take it "personal", it's" just a thing to you"..you believe "your opinions is just as good as anyone else". So you can tell lies like "the IMSB debris will not land on the cylinders", and think no one will call you out on it.
I'll play 20 questions with you, ONE AT A TIME, and expose your true stance , opinions and motive and lack of knowledge. I have nothing to hide, and the truth cannot be backed into a corner. I have nothing to gain from this exchange, but you on the other hand want to gain knowledge that you don't have by demanding "proof/evidence" which I really have no interest in educating someone like you, and will NOT be providing "evidence" for you that you are too lazy to find for yourself.
Gentlemen, IMHO I think this one is played out. Porschetech3...suggestion...put Boxman on ignore. I appreciate everything you contribute to this forum, knowledge, experience, etc. You share unselfishly and we all stand to gain more knowledge from your experience. Like the old Beatles song...Let it Be.
I totally, 110% agree with Joe on this one. Most of the people that have been on this forum for years know of your expertise and contribution to the Porsche community. I wouldn't waste another minute of energy on these two people.
Don't fool yourself in thinking I'll play your silly game. You're obviously not capable of having an online discussion without getting overly emotional and desperately marking your territory first. Yet you make outlandish and irrational claims that you don't even dare quantify or elaborate upon when asked.
You move goalposts around. First it's metallic shavings which, no, categorically don't make it through the filter. Then it's 10-micron sized metallic dust, next thing you know an IMSB grenading equals half a cup of 3 micron-sized dust. Be concise. It's possible you mistake the typical oil filter efficiency ratings (99.9% at 20 microns) for an absolute limit. Like you think an oil filter catches 99.9% at 20 microns and suddenly 0 % at 19 microns. Those ratings are for single-pass as well and nonzero efficiency extends quite a way down from the rated size - albeit not 99.9% but a tad lower. Move the goalposts some more.
Please do let me know if you will double down on your claim that
sump
splash oil will hit the cylinders, and whether or not the pressurized splash feed of clean oil would wash that away in a single stroke. Jake fell completely silent when I contested him on that claim.
While you're at it, regardless of the origin of the debris, which will survive the longest? An open ceramic bearing sitting in oil laden with metallic debris, or a sealed (intact seal) generic bearing?
Because Jake doesn't give a damn about arguing with a person that hasn't never completed the build of an M9X engine himself.
user 63031 has proven to only cause problems on this forum. He has targeted all the technically experienced people here, and clearly has a motive for his conduct.
Your ad-hominems are becoming transparent, Jake.
It's a fact that you can't help arguing with critics of your products ad nauseam,
right
up until the point where you're forced to give the answer that will
not
speak to the benefit of your product or activities anymore. We have landed at this point before, you stopped responding then too. My motive is to educate people about an inherent weakness of open bearings and the hypocrisy of dubbing it 'the strongest bearing ever' in your PR while the fineprint says it wouldn't even survive the tiniest amount of metallic debris.
Yes, I know I am doing so in the largest LN echochamber on the internet. I'm not sure what 'motive' you're insinuating I have, do speak up. Your motives, however, are 100% commercial in origin.
Stefan,
We know why you are here.. The same reasons why you have contaminated the Facebook pages with the same actions. We know who your friends are, and we know why you are saying what you are saying. Several people have picked you pout of the crowd, and messaged me. We were all thinking the same thing, and at least 6 of them nailed you.
That said, you have zero first hand experience. You have sat around and read posts, and talked to your local buddies and you want to help them. We all get that. You hate posts from professionals, even though we are the ones who have to pay so we can come here to argue with you. I am sure that makes you smile.
FYI- LN performed 100% of the ceramic bearing development. My role in those days was to develop the tools, retrofit procedure, and train the certified installers. When you call the "open ball bearing" mine, it isn't. The single row pro bearing also wasn't my concept. LN developed the bearing, and I came up with the Faultless tool, method of delivery, and the adapter sleeve to compress the internal wire lock to retain the bearing. The reason that I have not commented on the ceramic bearing is because that aspect of the development was never my department.
How can you "educate people" when the people you want to teach already know more than you do? Even the biggest novice here that has performed his own DIY IMSB Retrofit knows more about this process, and pulls rank on you when int comes to first hand experience.
Stefan? Hahaha this takes the cake, who might that be? Are you going full conspiracy mode now?
Let's have it. I provide full identity proof with the cooperation of the mods and when I turn out not to be this 'Stefan' you will send me an LN Solution kit free of charge. Deal?
Stefan is your other alias, so of course it won't match up with you here.
The IMS Solution isn't mine to give away. I have to buy them just like everyone else does. Why would you even want a Solution? I guess you'd sell it, or trade it for a roller bearing, since you hate the Solution so much.
Hahah, this is absolute gold. Let's set it up bro, whoever this 'Stefan' is. Let's make the bet. We'll figure out how to manage proving it after, but put your money where your mouth is. You buy me an LN Solution kit and dropship it, and if somehow I turn out to be affiliated to this 'Stefan' I'll come sit in your class and pay for it too. Lets goooo!
Honestly, I'm not expecting you to bite. Big silence from here probably, or a massive cop-out. Again, willing to reply and argue ad nauseam
right
up to the point where you might possibly actually be wrong about something. My offer stands. Have the guts to put your money where your mouth is. Show some bite with all that bark.
Regarding the Solution; you should dive back in my post history, on pure technical grounds I have only ever criticized your glass bearing and spin-on filter adapter.
You'd never attend my class, and I have no parts to give you/ bet with.
The best thing we can both do is stop exchanging information with each other. You clearly have an issue with everything I am about, and will stop at nothing in every post to create drama.
What a cop-out.
You make a pretty wild and embarrassing accusation which shows exactly what's wrong with your modus operandi (assuming to always be right instead of assuming even the best might be wrong about some things), and now you come with this massive cop-out
again.
�'m a man of integrity above all, if I'd lose this bet I'll attend your class and wear the dunce cap. You probably realized you are dead wrong on this one by now, so at least have the decency to apologize for your ridiculous accusation.
If you stand by it, make the bet. We'll make it into a bottle of good whisky for my part. But have some character. If you're so confident to go all out with accusations like this, have some confidence to show your backbone or own up to your mistake for once.
There's no way to prove who is who, especially with the troll on Social Media, and you know that. If you are not "Stefan" you carry yourself the same as he does, write the same way he does, and support the same things that he does, and I'm not the only one who has noticed it.
You won't attend my class, and you won't buy an IMS Solution. You will continue to do what you've always done, which is cause trouble, no matter who you are.
Nonsense, mate. And absolutely disgraceful. You're dead wrong and apparently not man enough to admit it. I can likely have it proven within the hour if you link me to one of his posts.
Here's your first clue. From what I gather based on your posts, "Stefan" hates your LN Solution. Would "Stefan" have said
this
? I'll quote;
It seems you keep jumping high and low that your remark was justified even if factually 100% false. If this is your true character, then maybe others will start understanding why I have problems with your absolute refusal to admit the existence of
any
weak point on that beloved glass IMS Retrofit. Because even if you yourself would know you were wrong, you would still not admit it.
I want to make sure I understand what your argument is all about.
Is your beef that the ceramic ball bearing requires an inspection before install that certifies there is no metal in the oil before the installation and then if metal appears after the installation, the ceramic oil fed ball bearing IMS needs to be yanked out and replaced with a factory sealed unit because the metal in the oil will make if fail and the sealed unit can survive with metal in the oil?
Is that it?
I assume that nice bearing is full of engine oil. Hard to believe the original grease could survive 99k miles with hot oil always trying to sneak by the seals.
Just revisiting this thread since it's been unlocked and I see this....
user 63031 is now "User 63031"???
You changed your username? What is that, your zip code?
Nice anonym dude!
'03 C4S w/ 39,850 miles ... I'm the new owner (#4) ... car came with little service/maintenance history. Original IMS bearing replaced by an FSI approved disciple in my area after borescope qualification. No damage or issue with the OEM IMS bearing I decided to install 'the solution"
I wish I had known this car had a dual IMS, as I would not have replaced it. Oh well now I have a new clutch assembly etc. so I'm good to go for many years.
New IMSB will help with resale if you choose to sell in the next 5yrs. New,
informed
, 996 buyers will always ask if the IMSB has been replaced regardless of dual or single. It was a good while you�re in there investment.
That 5-year guarantee confuses me. Is it just marketing, or did the shop install something just as fragile as the OEM part? Why a limit on life for the new bearing, regardless of miles?
The bearing design is a serviceable/wearable component, which is nice they even put a guarantee on it. If you don't feel comfortable exceeding that warranty period, then have the Solution installed. I had a dual row LN bearing installed, will probably extend past the "warranty" period because I'm not worried about it. I trust the design and will replace the next time the trans needs to be dropped.
I think of it no different than a belt changes on a Ferrari. Can a 10 year old belt with only 5,000 miles on it be fine, sure, but it can also still fail. It's up to you as the owner to decide how to address these nuances. It is a sports car after all.
1999 C2, early build. No issue w/IMS bearing. At 98,000 miles the bearing was replaced as part of a 100,000 mile service; replaced w/an auto-oiler. Currently at 110,000 miles.
New to me 2001 C4 Cab with 56,199 miles. Bearing seals were not in place, zero grease and race cap had come loose. Inside one end you could see the spalling on the bearing raceway. Like I said, got it just in time.
I am in a similar situation. 2003 C4S 40,500 miles. No symptoms at all. No oil dripping. at all, and no contamination in the oil filter. Everything seems fine. I am planning to do the clutch, IMS, etc. over the winter.
My question is did you have any oil dripping, or foreign material in the oil filter?
Thanks
Rick
Had my 1999 Carrera 2 (4/98 build date) for a little over a year now. 106k miles on it, I put 2k on in the last year. Original IMS, no issues yet. Probably going to do the bearing whenever the clutch needs doing next.
Just completed a LN Solution, RMS, clutch and flywheel on a 03 with 31K on the clock. The IMSB was definitely in stage 1 failure, no grease, but oil inside the bearing. No metal shavings, so I caught in the beginning stages of failure.
I have nineellebin's car and can confirm after 10 years and ~20K miles since he had it, that this statement is still true. No IMSB failure, however I do believe this is a bore scoring issue.
I am convinced IMSB is borderline a non-issue and the real issue with these cars lies in the woes with bore scoring - dare I say inevitable bore scoring.
Edit: also if anyone knows the guy or knows some sort of history of the car from his ownership, please do contact me. I tried texting him but got left on read, rofl.
Bought a 2002 996 from BaT in May 2019, major reason for purchase was seller had LN Engineering IMS Solution done in May 2019 at 85,000 miles. Put 7,000 miles on car over next 3 years, no tracking. Shop noticed oil leak while in for oil change, ultimately discovered IMS failure-see pic. Bearing had nearly sheared off, if it had, toast. Shop thinks they over torqued the IMS during install resulting in failure. Shop installed a new LN IMS Solution.
Got lucky - could have easily been a $20,000 ticket instead of $5G.
996 owners - Don't sleep on oil leaks! Nonaction can be fatal!
Would it be possible to find out who did this install and get the serial number for the installation? If you can send any pertinent info to
[email removed]
that would be greatly appreciated so we can look into this. We've never seen anything like this so I'm wondering if maybe the bearing was installed crooked or maybe they aborted and pulled it out and reinstalled it - something to compromise the bushing. We have seen multiple instances where shops have pulled and reused the bushing when it should be replaced and we have sold shops replacement bushing in these instances.
What I can tell you from the number of phone calls we get on a daily basis there are many who are carrying out these installations that really aren't qualified to do an IMS bearing let alone work on any Porsche. Sadly, just because the bearing has been done doesn't always mean it was done right.
We get calls regularly where the installer drove the bearing in crooked which requires them to apply greater force to try to straighten it out (which never works) or having to pull the bearing to try again. Problem is once you've screwed up the bearing shouldn't be reused. You'd be surprised how many do so anyways.
Interesting. Haven't been on RL for awhile but it seems this failure didn't get much coverage and it failed in a pretty bad way. Would be good to hear the outcome of any analysis of the part, especailly a follow up from the OP and what he decided to replace with. Anyway, this would be the first "Solution" failure I've seen reported but I don't get around as much as I used to, and from my count the score looks to be solution failure: 1 and roller bearings (any brand) 0.
I've also wondered why roller bearings never got much traction. They're definitely more durable. Maybe, since they were designed to withstand lateral loads and aren't as free-spinning as ball bearings, they just didn't seem like the right fit for this application. Maybe space is an issue. I'm also not aware of any roller bearing failures. But, it seems like the ideal solution is still the oil-fed journal bearing used in the IMS Solution (it just needs to be installed correctly).
When I had a problem in 2016, I tried to get my car in for 'The Solution', but there were no installers in my area and the wait time for getting my car in to Raby was many months - just to get started and ship the car to them. One side of my dual-row IMS bearing had already fallen apart, so it probably wouldn't have passed the pre-qualification anyway. I had to end up going with a local mechanic and I think I have a pretty solid solution (an original, new-in-the-box dual-row bearing and shaft were found on a parts shelf in a Porsche CA dealer in early 2017, and we grabbed it). The engine builder pulled the outer seal on initial installation to provide oiling as the lubricant (as he does on all IMS bearing engines that come in for an oil change, and he's never had a failure). That was over five years and 50k miles ago, and still no oil leaks or any significant metal in the oil filter. I cut up every oil filter after an oil change, and never find anything more than a few minutely-small specs of metal or plastic, which is normal. This situation is more susceptible to problems if you run dirty oil, so I change it often, usually around 3k-4k, even though I'm using full synthetic oil (5W-50).
Just bought 2002 C2 996 with 38K. Proactively replaced with LN dual row because I'm a nervous about everything in general. Old bearing was in great shape.
I replaced my IMSB in January with 41xxx on the clock. 2003 C4S. Examining the bearing on the bench it looked fine but when rotated by hand it was not smooth at all. Much friction. It felt like something was out of shape, whether that was the race, separator or the bearings themselves. Even with lubricant injected, it was not smooth. I did not disassemble it as LN asked hat not be done. But I believe that bearing was on the way to failure. There was no metal in the oil filter or sump. There is a magnetic plug in the sump and it was clean. So, who knows? It may have lasted another 5k miles, but I seriously doubt it would have made 20k more.
Just back from shop. RMS had a small leak since my purchase 10 years ago.
RMS, clutch and flywheel along with the new LNE solution done for peace of mind.
Old bearing looks perfect , but doesn�t really spin as freely as I would think it should. Will send old bearing off for analysis.
All 1999 and most (early builds) 2000's have the dual row. The build date will tell you more. The seller represented it as dual row and my indy feels the same - says it is a waste of $$ to change it.
Wasted money vs. 'cheap' insurance. Earlier in this thread I saw a photo of a disintegrated dual row, pretty sure it said the car had 64k miles. It's a rare failure, but costly. I strongly dislike throwing away good money on unnecessary repairs and my bearing was fine when removed, but I sleep better knowing that what I saw won't be happening to my engine.
I did mine last year. I installed the Solution, RMS, clutch, throw out bearing and flywheel in my manual 6-speed. The parts were about $2500. The shops around Portland Oregon wanted $5-6K. I ended up doing myself. If you have a tippy, you will need to remove the engine which will add another $1000-1500 in labor costs.
I am the second owner of a 52,000-mile 2002 Cab that I bought sight unseen in 2021 from Westmont Napleton Porsche outside of Chicago, sight unseen. I had it trailered to Motorworks in Millerton, NY to have the IMS bearing replaced with the LN Engineering Single Row Pro. As part of the LN Engineering warranty process,
Secret trailer hitch behind plate holds bike rack. Photo at Lime Rock Park.
I had to send them the old IMS. I can tell you with pretty much certainty, that it was in perfect condition. Indeed, looking at the CarFax, I can see that the transmission had been removed and put back in 2004 at Manhattan Motorcars, so I suspect my car is now on its third (and final) IMS!
Really? You had them replace the entire IMS (intermediate shaft)? Wow! That's impressive. Or, did they replace the IMSB (intermediate shaft bearing)? Just wondering...most replace the bearing and not the whole intermediate shaft (IMS), which requires an entire motor tear down...
I bought a �99 C4 almost exactly a year ago with 109k miles. I had always planned on doing the IMS bearing with the next clutch replacement. But clutch has plenty of life so I assumed this was a ways out.
Left town for a few months and returned home to two big puddles under the car. One right beneath the bellhousing. See photo � the smaller of the two large leaks was the one under the RMS, the larger was actually a cracked coolant expansion tank.
Decided it was a big enough leak to investigate even though primary suspect was RMS.
Dropped the tranny, and decided to replace the IMS bearing proactively with the LN retrofit kit.
Good thing too� IMS bearing was completely shot. My car is a very early MY99, with a dual row bearing. It was MISSING ball bearings, and there was a ton of play in the bearing itself. Honestly a miracle that the failed bearing hadn�t led to anything catastrophic. It was truly a ticking time bomb.
I�ve done Blackstone oil analysis with each oil change since my ownership and never saw any sign that the bearing was failed, save the leak in the garage.
Bullet dodged!
Weepy RMS leaked onto the IMS bearing, at this point not clear where the source of the leak was.
Failed dual row IMS bearing. Engine survived.
New LN engineering bearing.
I have 165,000 KM on my 99 C2. PO receipts indicate that the RMS and IMS bearing were replaced at 117,000 KM.
I notice that there is some weepage at the Bell housing and like you, suspect that the RMS needs replacement. After just doing the water pump and thermostat I think I'm gonna drive the car for a while before considering the RMS and inspecting the IMS bearing.
One way to think about the cost/benefit of replacing the IMS bearing is this. You have an 8% chance of a total engine failure so if the cost of a replacement engine and labor is $30,000, 8% of that is $2400. That is about the labor and parts cost to replace the IMS bearing. If you replace the clutch at the same time, and allocate some of the labor to the clutch, it is cheaper to replace the bearing than it is to risk the 8% chance of disaster. Your costs for a complete engine replacement may vary, so adjust as needed.
Yes, I'm in agreement about the bearings replacement beats a new engine, but if you own a 996, it can be viewed as a negative lottery ticket. You have an 8% chance of paying $30,000 which you can avoid by paying $2,400. Is it worth it? The risk was not worth it for me, but for some, the risk is worth it. I'm just suggesting a way to calculate the risk/reward.
(Previous Owner)
2003 C2, Failure at 37,581. (2013)
Engine Rebuild with LN 106-08.2
<car then hardly driven for years>
(Me)
Bore Scoring Identified at 45,945 (2022)
During rebuild, LN Retrofit bearing was on it's way out. Sounding like baby rattle.
LN 4.0 (yay), installed with EPS bearing.
I have a 3/98 C2 35K, the IMS was replaced with a LN Dual Row in 2018 and has only 4500 miles on it since, should I be concerned about getting it replaced next year as recommended after 6 years.
Yup. I knew the previous owner for the duration of the ownership of the vehicle as well. It was well loved but I don't believe that the bore scoring and cylinder ovaling issues were well known for the first rebuild in 2013. Only 1 cyl was reconditioned by EBS. Bore scoring was inevitable. I knew what I was getting into when I bought it from him. Planned on going 4.0 anyways.
I would get advice from LN directly on that. I know the part number I have on the 1st rebuild paperwork seems to be an older variant. I believe there was an update.
The 106-08.2 IMS Retrofit had a 4 yr/50k service interval when it was originally released in 2008.
The 106-08.2.2 Single Row Pro IMS Retrofit came out several years later only after Jake developed the Faultless IMS tool which then allowed us to install a dual row bearing in the place of the factory single row using an internal wire lock like the dual row bearing Porsche originally used. The last of the 106-08.2 Retrofit kits were manufactured back in 2012, so basically all those bearings are well past their recommended service intervals at this point.
All dual row IMS Retrofits (Classic Dual Row and SIngle Row Pro) have a 6 year/75k mi service interval.
I'm less concerned with mileage than time. Lack of use is the #1 killer for these engines following poor maintenance and not driving the cars as Porsche intended. That's why it's time or mileage, just like other manufacturers state for critical timing components like a timing belt.
I am the 5th owner of my 99 Cab 6MT with 93k miles, and I think I am running on original IMS. However, in looking over service records from first owner, he had the entire transmission replaced at 15,700 miles in April of 2001. Is it possible the the dealer replaced IMS when they put new transmission in?
I hope you don't mind if I piggy back on this question, since I have an almost identical situation. I've had mine for a bit over 6 years, the 3rd owner, purchased at 80K miles, now 118K miles. . When I got the PPI done they found that my transmission (Tiptronic) does not have a serial number. Evidently the reason is the trans is "new", or was new, and at some point was a replacement. But there are no records on when that might have happened. Anyway, I am rolling the dice on the IMSB that if the trans was replaced, that would likely be because it had broken, which should have happened some years after it was new, and by that time the IMSB problem was well understood, so they probably replaced the IMSB at the same time. If anyone can shed some light on the "missing serial number" for a new trans, that would be appreciated.
In 2001 no one outside a Porsche dealership probably had heard of IMS bearing failures. At the time, the RMS was the #1 issue that engines were being replaced for I'd wager.
The first replacement IMS bearing kit was the IMS Retrofit which was released in 2008.
Thanks for quick reply. I figured it probably wasn't a known problem in 2001, but wasn't sure if it was part of the transmission assembly that would be replaced in the event of a failure.
Charles is right on this issue not being well understood in 2001, but I have a follow on question for Blue Devil. Is the service record indicating a transmission replacement an actual receipt or a CarFax report? Back then, there wouldn't have been a CarFax code for an RMS or IMS replacement so they would code the transmission removed and replaced.
In 2001, it would have been under warranty (<3 yrs and 36,000 miles). If there was any suspicion of an IMSB problem, the dealer would have replaced the entire engine. The concept of replacing that bearing without cracking open the case was not an approach used by anyone at that time. Also, keep in mind that the bearing was not even available as a separate part, it came as an assembly with the entire Intermediate shaft.
I just had my IMS bearing and rear main seal replaced for the first time since owning my '99 996 C2. I tracked the car a couple times a year every year for the last 10 years with no issues. It just crossed the 100K mark on the odometer. So I decided to have the oil analyzed, which showed some small metal flakes in the filter. So to be cautious, I went with my mechanic's recommendation and had him install the LN Engineering single row bearing replacement. Everything is working great and the engine has never run more smoothly.
I should mention that my '99 996 had an engine replacement with its first owner in 2003. That included a double row bearing. When my mechanic opened up the IMS assembly, the bearings looked good. But there was some oil in the shaft and I had a very small slow leak from the RMS. That was enough for me.
The cost of the work was about $2600, which is about what I expected.
I own a 2002 996 Carrera 4 cab I bought second hand in 2005.
During some transmission service I had the IMS replaced at 100000 miles.
My shop owner retired , and the replaced IMS failed with no warning at 14ok.
It appears the LN IMS was never registered, so no warranty.
I decided on a dealer engine rebuild which cost $24k. I know this sounds stupid .
Now have 154k an the car, and still enjoying it.
It is quite possible I would never had an issue if I didn't preemptively replace the IMS.
Food for thought.
Exactly what happened to me, except in my case the replacement bearing was not an LN one and most likely installed incorrectly. I think it is very important when replacing the bearing to be sure the installer is following all LN guidelines to the letter. And I agree that with the original bearing, it would probably still have been purring along nicely.
After all this, I moved on to the Turbo because I was so fed up with the M96 issues.
Yes -- LN bearing kit failed
| '02 Carrera 4 Cabrio, tiptronic, no other significant mods
Bearing installed ~Feb.'13, so 10+ years and about 100k since installation. Started car late Sept this year and running rough, could hear a "tick tick tick" (RPM related) still didn't suspect the bearing given the LN kit had been installed.
Sent to shop though and confirmed, engine "muerto"!
Spoke to two different shop managers, including one who works closely with Flat-6 Innovations. Both said
the IMS (even LN kit) should be considered a "maintenance" item
, and replaced periodically. I had never heard this before and certainly hadn't thought about replacing it again.
In any case, pay attention to yours... ours probably could have been caught with more frequent oil changes, and perhaps a magnetic drain plug. Car wasn't being driven that much either, which may have contributed.
Regardless, loved having & driving the car for 10+ years. Sold to shop and probably moving up to 997.2 or 991.1.
It's documented the LN IMS replacement bearings are a wear item with a specified service life. The only solution that is permanent that I am aware of is the LN IMS Solution, an oil fed plain bearing system.
-Tom
Here is what they have published for the current versions of the product:
�The IMS Solution is designed to last the lifetime of the engine and does not have a service interval. The Dual Row IMS Retrofit� and Single Row Pro IMS Retrofit� both have a
6 yr or 75,000 mile
service interval.�
I believe the older versions were 5 yr or 60k mile, but not sure when the change happened.
The original Single Row IMS Retrofit 106-08.2 had a 4 year or 50k mi service interval. We have not sold any of these kits since 2014 when it was superseded by the Single Row Pro 106-08.2.2 which uses a dual row bearing with a 6 year or 75k mi service interval.
https://imsretrofit.com/service-intervals/
Thanks for clarifying / jogging my memory. Point is, these are a serviceable component and need to be serviced according to the lifespan of the part � it�s not one & done. With the exception being the IMSS (LN solution).
https://www.porscheclubgb.com/legacy...sion_codes.pdf
It looks like a normal model year 2000 engine. (The 'replacement' motors have "AT" in the engine code.) As you noted that is a transitional period for IMS bearings. With no symptoms and a decent maintenance history I would be inclined to wait until it was time for a clutch. YMMV of course!
Changed mine out at 112k miles and after close to 24 years of operation April last year. Never had a problem but was down there anyway, showed no wear apparently (but garage was evasive about single or dual row so lost my trust). 996 millennium first registered Nov '99, 2000 MY, M9604-66Y engine. On the registry only one of the 911 millenniums has been reported to have failed FWIW.
1998 dual row , OK it's a Boxster but dame bearing, failed at 180k kilometers. Lots of metal flakes in oil filter, bearing all stll in one piece but very rough. Replaced with Pelican single row kit and run for 10k kilometers and about 5 oil changes. Then removed the little single row and put in an FVD Brombachet steel dual row. The single row oozed oil when it came out.
Engine runs grate, no metal flakes in oil.
2001 996 C2, 82K miles, bought slightly used in Sept. 2001. Original bearing and almost everything else. Runs great, suspension is toast. Will have an engine-out service sometime soon and replace the IMS bearing along with all the usual stuff. Hoping for another 23 years of fun!
1999 996.1 , 6spd with original dual row bearing at 112135 miles.
Rms had been changed by me at about 30k miles, the car did not burn oil at all. Base model coupe with almost no options other than auto dimming mirrors and sunroof
2002 C2 Mfg Date 11/2001, Svc Date: 4/2002, Purchased by me 6/2008, 30k miles
Failed in first 1k miles, I drove it like a maniac, hardly let oil warm up, but I think the kicker was the previous owner had DEALERSHIP fill with 20W-50 oil before I purchased it.
I swizzled a CPO warranty on it right after purchase, and it kicked in to replace the power unit with a Porche rebuild in 7/2008.
Extra facts:
New power unit always seemed to have more power... consistently confirmed by other 996 owners / hardcore PCA folks at track and autox events... Turns out after some belt failures, it was a rebuild of an automatic engine (which has different pully takes slightly different belt) but my car is manual. Convinced that the engines for automatics were powered better from factory (totally unproven).
Pic shows non-serviceable MY06-08 6305 series IMS bearing BEFORE being serviced 10 years later. Not sure if tech removed the grease seal as recommended by LN...
2002 996.2 C4 tiptronic cabriolet purchased September 2024. Very very pleased with it.
On original IMSB and RMS at 85k. PPI showed no metallic particles in oil filter and no borescoring engine runs extremely well with no smoke or noises and plenty of power.
Tiptronic has a leak at engine/gearbox flange so it needs dropping and engine/transmission separation for new gasket. Will replace RMS while in there. Workshop advised this -
IMS Intermediate Shaft Bearing Upgrade Eternal Fix for
M96 Engines and Early M97.01. Made by European Parts Solutions and supplied by Design911.
If the original (I would think single row) IMSB is found to be in good order, do I leave it alone, replace with Porsche IMSB or go for the EPS Eternal Fix at around �600?
Will also be getting a full suspension rebuild done (it’s all 22 years old) with all new suspension links, front top bearings and bump stops, Bilstein B6s and H&R springs.
Grateful for any thoughts/experience on the IMSB quandary. Thanks.
Could only vote once, but I have had no issues with either one of mine.
'99 with 120k miles
'00 with 54k miles
In all fairness, I don't have a service history for either vehicle, so it's possible that one or both has had it replaced. Given that they both have some oil leaking, my guess is that neither has, but they are 25 years old.
I just took the '00 on an 1800 mile drive. No mechanical issues. Just a few electrical gremlins.
The '99 currently has a blown head gasket, and needs the engine removed. It's an automatic, so I'll probably just sell it as is.
The '00 has a date with destiny to receive an LS swap. That project is likely a year or two out, so in the interim, I may go ahead and drop the trans and do the IMS and RMS. I'll see how motivated I am this winter.
I would certainly get a second opinion on which way to go.
For the record, Design 911 was removed as an authorized reseller and is on our do not sell list. I would refer you to
Custom Concepts
which is our European agent and he can make a referral to you if you are looking for another vetted shop to have this work done at.
With how nice that car is, assuming it's a keeper I would personally recommend an
IMS Solution
, which is the only truly permanent fix for the
Porsche IMS Bearing
.
You want the engine to be in perfect condition before you change the IMS bearing. Ideally you take it out and after looking it over, ask yourself why am I doing this? The answer is so that your engine stays in pristine condition. I went with the LN Engineering IMS pro replacement rather than the IMS Solution only because it was a budget issue, but you can't go wrong with either that or as Charles suggests, the IMS Solution. I will add that one of the benefits of the LN Engineering product is the Registry. If your tech follows all the instructions, your new bearing is registered to your car's VIN so any buyer can verify the work was done. It also comes with a sticker that identifies the bearing replacement, but the Registry is a real benefit. I have to replace mine in another four years, and I will go with the Solution, which they offer at a small discount for those of us who already bought the replacement option.
Also, very good-looking car you have there.
Update: 2000 Millennium Edition (late 1999 build year). Service history since new. 120K miles now with original IMS and no issues. Liqui Moly oil changes once a year or every 5000 miles, whichever comes first.
I always let the engine get to operating temp before exceeding 3000 RPM. After that, spirited driving with regular higher revs. Cruising is usually around 3000.
Ideally the old one comes out looking like new. That's what you want. Do take pictures or a video if the old one makes noise as it spins. If getting the LN Engineering route, be sure to either have the shop follow the registration process or give you the old bearing so you can send it in and get the new one properly registered.
It wasn't mine when it happened, but in 2018 at 138k, the IMS bearing in my 10/21/99 built 2000 911 Carrera 4 catastrophically failed requiring a $15k engine rebuild. I do not yet know if it had the dual row or single row bearing in it. (I just acquired it with 155k, drove it 800 miles home and having it checked next week. I believe it has some version of the LN bearing in it, and am sure it is within the mileage service interval but think its well outside the time service interval.)
Pro-actively changed my 1999 dual row to the LN ceramic. I have no idea how to tell if the original was bad or not, but here it is. 76k miles.
Going to turn it into a paper weight or something.
Oh well, i guess if I want the LN Warranty, I have to send it back to them. That's lame.
I removed (and then replaced per Charles' request) the seals before sending my dual row back. From my untrained eye, it looked in perfect condition. 76k miles.
I have a second early build 996, which has 103k miles on it with original bearing. And I have a tad more peace of mind now about waiting for clutch before I do that bearing too.
I recently purchased a 2001 911 with only 37,000 miles. This week the IMS bearing was replaced with the IMS Retrofit Kit from LN Engineering. The replacement gives me piece of mind, and is well worth the money for that.
IMS Solution is a spectacularly good choice, especially for a 40AE. However I don't think they had the dual row bearing. That was an early 996.1 thing.
How are you capturing those replies that:
1. Pre-emptively replaced the IMS and had no failure
2. Replaced the IMS (with non-LN part or with LN part) and had a subsequent failure?
2001 3.4 C4 6 speed
51k miles
Original dual row.
Not failed.
Inspected during RMS change - was perfect, smooth, zero play.
Removed seal, fresh oil flowed out, no evidence of original grease.
Not changing something for the sake of it that is working perfectly and has a c.1% failure rate.
Better watch out man, you will get flamed here lol.....Good for you man, I feel the same way but there has been improvements and some are making $$$ of that 1%. Driving around in my Targa 80k miles and no clue of the IMS, engine is strong did some oil analysis in my 2 year ownership. Clutch will be needed soon, at that time it will be checked.
Nah..he wont get flamed...just think of how many in this thread marked " still on my original IMSB " ...since 2013 .... but have snuck out the back door quietly....lol ......We should start an " I told you so " Poll ............
I've done a lot of research, read a lot of articles and focussed a lot on what the guys at Hartech have to say on the matter - Hartech are 1 hour away from me as luck would have it (UK based).
If there had been any 'feel' to it, or any play, I'd have changed it, but it felt like the volume **** on a top end audio amplifier.
It's got 17 stamps in the service book and the oil has been changed religiously from day one, often with only a few hundred or thousand miles on it.
My own unfounded, worthless opinion is that if the original grease has long washed away, and therefore so has the opportunity for this grease to hold on to wear particles from the bearing that would act like a grinding paste and exponentially lead to premature wear and failure. Because all the grease had washed away, this tells me it's been getting nice fresh oil from early in it's life and therefore probably contributed to its survival.
Hartech mention the risks involved in pulling a perfectly good bearing out of the case halves which on balance can do more harm than good from a preventative maintenance perspective, so I made my choice and each to their own. Changing it would have been no issue at all as I've git it all stripped down in the garage whilst I detail everything.
Note 'shallow' cup cover pate to facilitate deeper dual row bearing. Single row bearings had a deeper cup cover.
I removed the seal as a matter of course.
If it lets go, that's on me and I'll rebuild with a Hartech 3.7, but I like my odds.
<waites for the rods to come through the case>
IMS failed June 2008 at 54k miles. Looks to be a late 1999 build. SoCal car. I had an aftermarket power train warranty that I had purchased in 2005 when I got thr car with 1k miles on it. It now only has around 50k on the new engine (about 104k miles total). I�m currently doing major maintenance service and the engine is a M96/04AT66� sealed single row bearing which is part of either a 3.4 or 3.6L engine. Ripped off the outer seal. Conflicting info on whether it�s a 3.4 or 3.6. The Porsche dealer installed the replacement crate engine part no 996-100-996-CX. I have the original record. Good news is this engine is ionly .01% failure rate.
QUOTE=Marc Gelefsky;10194928]As requested I have posted this poll.
Many have been asking to understand how many of the 996 cars have had IMSB (intermediate shaft bearing) failures. Although the people on this board are not necessarily a random sampling of 996 owners many have asked to see a poll to get a better sense of it.
Please vote only once for each 996 you own (yes or no).. you can post multiple times but only vote once
Please include details of your car and engine if it failed via IMS and when.
Please let us know if there were any mitigating factors (low oil, overheat, etc) that might have led to the failure
Please post only about IMS failures, this is not about RMS failures
Please post only for your car, no heresay or posting for a friend who doesn't frequent the board
Please post what was done to rectify the failure if your car failed (CPO engine, engine out of pocket, used engine, sold, insurance fire, pushed it into a river etc)
Please ONLY POST DATA HERE. Not discussion.
Hopefully this will help owners and soon-to-be owners get a sense of how frequently this occurs.
*Thanks*[/QUOTE]
Well as someone who is part of the 1% - meaning I experienced a catastrophic engine failure caused by a failed IMS while driving the car - I would replace it with the solution asap. It�s 25 years, the cost of failure is too high, and the fix is not overly expensive. And I�m a risk-taker. But that�s just me.
Been here since 2001 and at that time the IMS was getting talked about and ramping up to total catastrophic engine failure. When I had my aircooled it was the headstuds if you dont change to APR from the boards your headstuds will cause catastrophic engine failure lol. Its crazy to think the 1% rules these boards while the rest of us drive around in our 996s with no issues. I do agree theres been many upgrades and to quite the 1% one should look into many different IMS solutions to see which one works for them. BTW your not a risk-taker until you drive around for a year in half in a daily driver 996.2 and have no clue if the IMS has been done or not. I will get to it when the clutch needs it...
Good point about driving around in a 996.2 being a risk taker. As you know the reason why anyone doing that is a major risk taker is because the failure rate for those cars is 8% (reported). That is absolutely ridiculous for a company like Porsche to not replace at no cost all these expensive engines that obviously come with a major design defect like that . And honestly, 1% failure due to a known design defect that if it occurs is a very expensive fix (perhaps too much for many) is not the same thing as risking failure of an item that is not exceedingly expensive to fix. That is not ok or acceptable to me. And I had purchased a powertrain warranty so it did not hurt me personally. I don't know how to say it any other way - you are driving around in a car with a known design defect that could be catastrophic for you and anyone driving these cars at any time.
I told you what happened to me because I had a 996.1 that I took care of and drove it and the IMS still cratered. And I too have been around here lurking for years and years (I reported my IMS flame out on this board under a different account number long ago).
You forgot the AOS, RMS, BORE SCORING, WATER PUMP, PLASTIC COOLANT TANK, ETC....I've already repaired the WP and PC tank.....The fact that my 21 year old Targa hits 6k to 7k on the freeway and doesn�t explode by your accounts is a miracle and I am grateful for that...If you have been here long enough you have heard the bitch about Porsche and this catastrophic 996 design and flaws, you know this already. Porsche moved on and we drive them. You might want to do some research on those years for Porsche and what it had to do to survive, all the soccer moms driving around in a newer Macan or Cayanne owe the catastrophic 996s, Boxster�s, Cayenne�s for keeping Porsche afloat, otherwise we wouldn�t have the newer electornice Porsches of today.
No, I didn't forget anything. I've owned my 2000 C4 since 2004. I've been around this board for over 20 years. And unlike you I've experienced this problem before (which depending on where it happens could end up killing or seriously injuring you and/or someone else, but whatever).
You on the other hand seem to be ignoring the fact that percentages like 1% or 8% for catastrophic engine failure - a known design defect - are ridiculously high.
Honestly, I know alot more than you appear to know about these issues (no need for the condescension), but there's no reason to beat a dead horse. I hope that nothing happens to your car . . .
I agree the board is great place and the knowledge here is great to solve issues that arise, but the IMS is a deadhorse and you are the one resposting from a different account on it? I am not ignoring anything I am aware of all the known issues with the 996, this board again is a great source for the known issues. Being on forumns, there is a lot of noise one tends to filter it out and tends to go the logical route when it comes to these cars. Proactive, when it needs it and too late it exploded. I am in the middle, aware of when it needs it. Thanks for now nothing has happened, but I will continue to drive.....Hope you do the same
Absolutely - my car is in the shop right now getting alot of deferred maintenance taken care of. I was going to do the IMS solution but discovered that my replacement engine has the sealed bearing (less than .1% failure rate on those engines which is fantastic imo). I'm putting my car in a position to drive it for another 25 years (more often).
Because my car is in the shop getting a bunch of things taken care of (timing system, clutch, water pump, etc.), I started thinking about the IMS issue again - and tried to post here but couldn't find my account, so I started a new one. You're right it's all about risk tolerance - for me I wouldn't be comfortable driving around on a car with an 8% catastrophic rate. Your car is beautiful - enjoy.
Sorry to hear of your failure.
If I'd felt even the slightest deterioration, friction, play or coarseness I'd have changed it. But as an early dual row that felt like a high end audio amp volume ****, where the original grease had long washed away and with it any wear particles that could exponentially accelerated wear, I was comfortable to leave it. I based this decision on the guidance that replacing these is not without it's own element of risk relating to the machining tolerances of the case bores. Can't remember the detail from Hartech without going back through historic papers, but I was happy to leave it on balance. I'll check it again in a year or so.
I bought a 996.2 with 65k miles. Pre purchase inspection, oil assessment and removal of the oil pan all suggest that the IMS is just fine. However the car is 22 years old and as part of this winter�s maintenance I will be replacing with a replacement from LN Engineering and at the same time will install AOS, clutch, flywheel, RMS as planned maintenance items. So far I am delighted with the car and it is everything I remember from a 996 I had in the UK when they first came out. This will be my 6th 911 and yes I am addicted.
Bought my car in June� �02 with 37k miles. Was concerned about the IMS but it turned out to be fine, but the previous owner had been a little heavy on the clutch. But the IMS is now done along with the water pump, clutch, AOS and some other stuff.
92k miles 1999 C2. The clutch went when I was driving on freeway, luckily I managed to take her back home without towing. Time to do the big 3 (IMS solution, RMS, UAOS) once I get the car to the shop. Tough pill to swallow, especially this is right after a suspension overhaul. But nonetheless, 5 years and 35k miles later, I am not seeing myself replacing the car any time soon. So here we go, may health be with you and your 996 for years to come, fellas.
I have 121k on my car and 43k miles/11 years 9 months on an LN retrofit bearing. I've gone back and forth on replacing the bearing since I bought the car 8 years ago. It's been in the back of my mind again each time I drive, though I have read from LN themselves the failure rate on replacement bearings is extremely low.
I've quoted a solution install at a local LN approved shop for ~$6k. I'm sure other things will be replaced during that job so looking at a costly endeavor if I do. I really do want this as my forever car, and have told myself that if the engine goes inevitably to bore scoring I'd pony up the 30k to rebuild. Do you think a solution is worth it in a car with 120k with an old LN retrofit? If anything is it ensuring I'll have a usable engine for a rebuild vs a bearing causing catastrophic failure and needing a new block if the engine does go some day?
I'm not a porsche wrencher but if I were in your shoes I would not replace an LN replacement IMSB. I have a 2000 C2 TIP with 57K and the original dual row and I will not replace the IMSB
.
Yes, the LN Solution is a great way to prevent IMS-related catastrophic failure on your aging engine. I expect the prices of used M96 engines to continue rising, making it more reasonable to preserve the one you have.
If you can prove you have an LN Retrofit, LN Engineering should give you a discount on a new IMSB. If you want to keep the cost down, why not just replace with another IMS Retrofit. There is a little less labor and the bearing kit is a little less expensive. On the other hand, both labor and part costs keeps rising so whatever you need to do, do it now!
If you're worried about bore scoring make sure you use a decent oil, i'm on a 5W-50 of M1 quality changed regularly. 120k miles and original bearing so can't comment on that.
My 99 had the IMSB replaced with the LN Retrofit at 76k miles by the previous owner. The car now has 186k miles without any issues with the IMSB. I want to replace the bearing due to the miles on it. The Solution seems like a no-brainer to me since the cost is not that much more than the Retrofit and it can carried forward if/when an engine rebuild is required. Unfortunately, the shops I asked about replacing the bearing won't do it due the high milage on my car.
IMHO those shops are doing you a favor.
To do any internal engine work like imsb solution($3000..? + while you're in there $$$$) is probably not wise. Any internal engine $ubstantial work other than a complete build on a m96 approaching 200k miles is not in the interest of the owner. No matter how good it runs now. Those shops know the money is better saved for the big day that can't be that far off at 189k.
A lesser shop might just take your money and do whatever you want. Then 6 months down the road when you need engine/tranny out again for a total rebuild be glad to take your money again. Lots of shops just like that. Other shops like the ones you talked to above don't want to have to tell you a little down the road "the $$$$ you just spent didn't extend the life of your 189k engine, sorry"...
If it were my ride, I''d take off the sump cover every oil change from here on out and look for any signs of problems. Easy to see the harbingers of the imsb coming apart long before it fails. if you look and pay attention the sump and oil filter tell the story....
Curious, how much oil do you use between changes @ 189k..? Whats hot oil pressure after a loong ride @ idle no a/c on.
jmho
Unless there is some glaring reason why your engine shouldn't be serviced, this makes no sense. If it passes the ims
pre-qual
and has no bore scoring, why not do whatever is needed to keep it running. That is like saying not to change the water pump because it has high mileage.
I will say that I do come across many with cam timing deviation outside of tolerance where the customers do not want to do those repairs. In that case, yes, that would fail the pre-qual and the IMS bearing and variocam chain ramps and 4th and 5th chains should be done at the same time.
I remember you saying...
"by 100k miles ALL m96 have way out of spec out of round cylinders"
IIRR you even mentioned then, you had just measured a m96 that was at .010" oor.
Are you now saying out of spec oor is not a problem that should be addressed?
Yes, I did say that. However, the rings are worn to match the bores. That's why in the hands on class we say to never re-ring one of these engines.
Plus, if the engine is still running fine, I've never said to tear it down and rebuild it just because. That makes no sense.
Ok, I understand.
As long as we're on the subject, what are the downsides of running with .010" oor,,, even with the rings worn into the cylinders. ?
Curious, How many 996.1 m96 @ 200k miles pass the "pre-qual" for LN imsb replacement.
Again, we know from inspecting new blocks that the bores are perfectly round out of the box and with age, will go out of round. As you quoted, I've shared those measurements and did so a very long time ago. Obviously, engines may end up with a bit more blow-by which can put an increased load on the AOS. However, the fact that Porsche used pinned second piston rings which keep them from rotating ensures they wear with the cylinder bore and they can still do their job which is primarily oil control. Again, if there are no symptoms and the car runs great, it's not a big deal - engine just will make a tad less power, that's all.
I'd imagine that 996.1s with the 3.4 engine are the most likely to pass. From almost two decades of data, it's the 3.6, 3.8, and 3.4 Cayman that are the most problematic when it comes to scoring.
I know the bearing replacement does not extend engine life per se. It is a preventive measure to avoid failure of that one bearing. It seems to me that these engines are capable of long life with proper care, just like any other engine. Why not take reasonable steps to ensure it?
One of the shops was more concerned about their warranty liabily than anything else and suggested that I sell the car before it fails. Eff that.
Does installing the Solution require opening the engine? I thought this is done with the engine in the car.
I don't has the sump pulled at oil changes, or any of the other technical inspections that are commonly recommened in this forum. I don't see the need for a commuter.
My car uses one quart of oil in about 2k miles. The right exhaust pipe gets a bit sooty between the infrequent washings the car gets. The lowset oil pressure is 1.0 bar at idle when hot using 20W-50 oil.
I would start with doing a
used oil analysis
. That should give you a good indicator of health, then you can decide. If you have a
Durametric
, then you can also look at fuel trim values to make sure there aren't any issues that might contribute to bore scoring.
To answer your question on the IMS Solution, it does not require opening up the engine. Only exception is the 06-08 model years and any replacement engines built in or after the 2006 model year, all of which would have the larger non-serviceable IMS bearing.
1999 (3/98 Production) C2 - 6 Speed. Confirmed Dual Row. 133k miles.
Engine ran fine, and seemingly had no issues. I did find some small metal particles in the oil after the previous owner did the LiquiMoly Oil Flush. An oil analysis indicated there was some bearing failure. I quickly got it into the shop and they confirmed the bearing was starting to come apart and that it was an original bearing. Replacing with the LN Retrofit bearing, new clutch, flywheel, RMS, a UAOS, and a new water pump.
It's been five years since I had my IMS bearing replaced, but at the time, the documentation said that if any debris like you described is found, you should abort the Retrofit. They are concerned that if there is any debris, it's too late to save the engine. That is what my documentation said. That may have changed.
Yes - my mechanic did express some concern here, but he was able to get the tube totally cleaned out, and he said replacing the RMS should help keep oil out too. Similarly, we dropped the oil pan and cleaned anything out there. I have a magnetic drain plug to pull anything else too. I'm going to keep an eye on the oil and do analysis with every change and switch to a higher quality (Driven). He seemed confident this would work, and I trust his judgement (He's done a number of these, from what he said).
If it totally goes, I guess that's a good excuse to K-swap it or get a Slakker rebuild, huh?
You are correct. Once the bearing has started shedding debris, it's going to get in other places. As long as you know that there is no warranty and that FOD can cause further damage, some people still choose this route and are willing to chance it.
I've posted about this specifically and recommend also fitting a spin on oil filter adapter with a filter mag. If a magnetic drain plug was not fitted previously, you probably should put one too. Some shops will go as far as to drop the sump again at the next oil change to remove any further debris that might have accumulated.
I found a video from a few years ago that i had lost of my Sons imsb when removed at 70k miles...
I had the trans out to replace the 2nd gear Syncro's ..also wanted to refresh the clutch, and to install a NUP6204 Roller Bearing IMSB ...The OEM Dual Row with 70K miles was failing......Knowing that some debris was in the engine, I installed lots of magnets along with the new Roller Bearing IMSB ..
You Tube
No.
2001 996 Mk1, no failure 83K miles. To my surprise, it was a dual row when opened.
Upgraded to LNE replacement as preventative with new clutch, flywheel, etc in 11/25.
Did the LN registration.
Have 1.5K miles since.
Hi - car at 66,000 miles and has frequent oil changes. No issues yet but wonder if I should take preventative action now. Car is 2004 40TH anniversary model.
if you are getting the clutch done get the bearing done as well. It�s basically the same labor. If you are the type of person who will worry about the ims every time you drive the car and the peace of mind makes it more enjoyable do it now. Otherwise wait until you need a clutch.
I had mine done with a clutch at 95k and the bearing looked totally fine.
I don�t think about it at all now.
I agree with GC996. It is important that the original bearing appear to be good condition when you replace it because if you replace it after has even begun to look like it was about to be a problem, it has already damaged your engine. The whole idea is to pull out the old bearing and say to yourself "maybe I didn't need to do it because it looks fine." If it looks fine, you caught it in time.
Since the labor involves removing the clutch, have that replaced at the same time.
The other advantage to doing it now is that parts and labor are just getting more expensive over time.
I'm sure others will chime in with the "while you are in there, do this..." To the extent you can afford more parts and labor, there is a list that begins with replacing the AOS with a UAOS and track drain and ends with an oil cooler, water pump, low-temp thermostat and a good look at the three-dozen hoses on this beast.
I bought my C2 in May with 65k miles. No indication that the motor had been touched and no detailed history prior to previous owner. I had the motor and gearbox out this winter with a view to doing the IMS, RMS, AIS, Clutch, Flywheel, water pump and a few other minor jobs. Turns out that the motor in my car is actually a replacement Porsche unit with the 997 IMS bearing so clearly the original motor suffered some sort of failure although I have no idea what. Research through Porsche couldn�t pinpoint what happened as the motor replacement wasn�t done by Porsche or under warranty! However my car now has a nice new DOF system for the IMS which was in fine shape so no panics there. Engine and gearbox are now ready for reinstallation.
I thought my 2000 996 suffered an IMS failure at 137k, so I voted YES. But I just found out it did not. So Im just putting this here because I cant change my vote.
2001 C4 - 125000 miles, dual row bearing - IMS was in perfect condition.
Go it changed out yesterday due to Variocam seal material in my oil filter. I rebuilt the chain tensioners myself to save cost - installed LN engineering IMS to be safe, also changed out the water pump, thermostat and AOS. Everything was original to the car.
The Porsche service records indicate the IMS/Engine failed under warranty in 2006. Porsche installed a factory Crate engine stamped "AT". This engines serial number indicates it was the last of the M96 engines produces with larger bearing, Upgraded Guides and casting on the block.
Just had the IMS, bearing replaced with the solution by my indie pleased with the result however, the bearing was completely fine.
996 4S 2003 48,000 miles
Well, that is the point. The old bearing needs to show no shedding of debris, otherwise its paper overing a hole in the wall. Make sure you or the shop send the old bearing back to LN so you get the warranty and the official registration.
