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Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHPicked up a 996 this morning, now what?
Leading reported evidence
Check cam deviations and join the pca
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
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0
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Read evidence and context
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
You have gotten two really good suggestions: have the car checked for cam deviations and join the PCA.
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Suggestion
You're better off dropping the sump plate, checking for any debris, fingering your sump, checking your cylinder bores for scoring from both top and bottom.
Leading evidence: 'Check cam deviations and join the pca' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'noise is not' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check any debris, fingering your sump' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I consider the scenario where the PO did an oil change(or had it changed) and found bits of plastic in the filter, then sent it to the detail shop, and put the 'for sale' sign up.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
AOS (air oil separator) was replaced which is extremely important.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
It had its engine replaced by the porsche dealer 11yrs/40K miles ago.
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Check any debris, fingering your sump
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Read evidence and context
Discussions that contain suggestions
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Suggestion
You're better off dropping the sump plate, checking for any debris, fingering your sump, checking your cylinder bores for scoring from both top and bottom.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
You're better off dropping the sump plate, checking for any debris, fingering your sump, checking your cylinder bores for scoring from both top and bottom.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
129 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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Outcome without a verified action link
(OK, the worst case scenario is soon after I fixed this problem, one of the
I was definitely taking a risk when I took the plunge without a PPI or looking for a carfax, but it drove nicely during my short test drive, and I put it up on a lift
and the undercarriage looked clean and without leaks.
It had its engine replaced by the porsche dealer 11yrs/40K miles ago.
Things I plan to do in the very near future:
1) Change the oil (previous owner has been using mobile 1 0W-40, thinking
of changing to a thicker weight like 20W-50), tear apart the filter cartridge
and look for metal bits, send sample to blackstone for analysis. Probably
do that for every subsequent oil change.
2) Go over the maintenance paperwork to see if coolant, tranny fluid, or brake
fluid needs flushing.
3) Do a compression check and replace the spark plugs while at it.
Owner mentioned he replaced a couple plugs years ago but gave up
cause the others were too difficult to reach and the old plugs looked fine.
Is compression test an easy DIY job or should I have a shop do it?
4) Replace IMS and RMS next time I do the clutch. But the clutch was
replaced four years (10K miles) ago so it may be a long while. Especially
since I seem to be very easy on clutches.
5) Repair any annoying electrical issues.
6) Read this forum as much as possible to learn about the 996 issues and
porsches in general.
What else should I worry about? I don't have a special plan for this car,
but want do a couple of PCA autox to learn how to handle a rear engine
RWD car, and may be a day or two of DE if I feel comfortable with the car.
Oh yes, I joined PCA this morning as well.
Welcome! Where's the pics?!?!?
Spark plugs are a pain but not too bad if you have the right tools. Don't bother dropping the muffler, it seems like it's not possible but it is.
AOS and water pump replacement are recommended by some experts every 3 years regardless of miles. Replace the thermostat with an LN low temp stat while you are at it. Finally, LN engineering sells a spin on oil filter adapter kit including mag drain plug and a case of DT40. The DT40 was specifically designed to overcome some of the deficiencies of the M96/M97 engines.
These cars are a crazy amount of fun. Enjoy it!!!
What's the point of the compression test? You bought it - so do whatever maintenance needs to be done and enjoy driving it.
I advise you to limit your forum reading to 20 minutes a day for the first year. Otherwise, you're going to spend all your money replacing the sh*t that isn't broken, and you won't have any left to fix the sh*t you actually break.
+996, not to mention the endless amounts of worrying.
You're better off dropping the sump plate, checking for any debris, fingering your sump, checking your cylinder bores for scoring from both top and bottom. Good time to do it while you are replacing your plugs. You should also plan on replacing all the coils(and spark plug tubes/seals if it's mk1).
Forget the 20w50 weight. This isn't an old BMW. Make sure you use a proper Porsche approved oil or one of the boutique oils. If you wanna drink the Kool-Aid then Driven DT40 Oil is a must but there is a special procedure to switch to it as you have to flush out all the old oil as to not cross pollinate any of the old stuff. LOL
Welcome
Good idea about dropping the oil pan to check for debris. I'll do that.
Half the fun of getting a new (to me) car is tinker around something unfamiliar and
seeing how things work. The other half of the fun is reading the forum and daydreaming
about what can break next and what parts to buy to prevent it.
Kmagnuss says "go drive". Who has time for that? :-)
A little detail on my new toy:
1999 C2, 87K miles, previous owner says it is all stock. It has 18" wheels but I don't know if they came with the car or and added option.
borescope?
Until this afternoon I didn't know what it is, but now I need one :-)
Will a cheap one work? Or is cylinder scoring only visible on a fancy
high resolution borescope?
Great choice! I didn't know it when I bought my '99 but you have purchased one of the best 911's there is. You still have all of the feel and drivability of the 993 (no PSM, mechanical throttle linkage) but with the higher HP of the 996.
FYI, the 18's were an optional upgrade on the '99.
You will probably want to change out fluids to establish your maintenance baseline if you don't have good records with the car, but definitely get out there and enjoy it! You have the best driving experience for the money now, and you should drive it every chance you get.
I hope you're right. This car is the only watercooled 911 I've driven (and
a very brief drive at that) so I don't have a reference.
My previous attempt at buying a 911 was more than twenty years ago
and I drove a few SCs and a few mid 80's carrera. I ended up
really liking a one owner '69 911S. Still kicking myself for letting a few worn rubber suspension bushings prevented me from buying it.
hahahahahahha... that's the funniest comment I've seen in a while. I can imagine what Google returned on that search. I'm too scared to try myself! hahahahaha
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+996
Best thing is DRIVE the car
See if your local PCA does a car control clinic or Performance Driving School
The single best upgrade you can do is upgrade the driver
Where are you located?
Thats a c4s 😂 Those came standard with the car on fire option which us 99 C2s could not afford.
Driving the car is stupid just throw on some jack stands and remove the engine...youll never have any IMS issues
Don't go to 20 wt oil. The clearances in your engine were not designed for that weight and you may do serious damage by using it. Stick with the weight quoted by Porsche.
Well, the previous owner left me two gallons of 0w-40 mobile 1, so my first oil change will
be with that. I may do the oil change this weekend to continue to silver car on jack stand theme.
Haven't driven it more than twenty feet since I bought it yet. But did read most of the owners'
manual last night. 2nd gear goes to almost 70mph! That's taller than the 3rd gear on my miata.
Remove the oil filter housing, and take the filter out. Let it dry some, and then inspect the pleats carefully for and metal particles in bright sunlight. You can also drain the engine oil through a cheesecloth or white soft cloth. Then inspect the cloth in bright sunlight looking for flecks of metal particles. This will tell you a great deal about the condition of your engine and if there's any cause for concern.
If you want to go further, you can then remove the oil pan from the car, and inspect the underside of the engine, and pan for debris. The oil pan goes back on with a light coat of gasket maker.
Congratulations on your purchase, don't worry too much about all the comments it's not really that bad!!!
Your ims should be a double row which is a lot better than the later single row and have a lot less failures, if your worried you could install an ims guardian if you think it will be a while to clutch replacement for the opportunity to upgrade your ims, also the 3.4 doesn't score it's bores like the 3.6 either.
What ever you do though DONT USE THAT 20/50 OIL
It will be too thick when cold to get in between the close tolerances of the engine, you want a 5w40 oil , Mobil 1 is a bit thin but there's loads to choose from, the main thing is drive and enjoy , these cars are starting to go up in value and your in at the right time!!
do your self a favor; dont read ANY of the IMS threads. If ou do your paranoia will get the best of you and you wont enjoy the car. Just replace it and keep your fingers crossed.
The real talented guys don't even need to jack up the car to do an oil change on these cars. If you have a slim oil pan, you're good to go. But then again, you do drive a Miata so...
Oil you say? Are we talking about oil?
Joe Gibbs DT40 or stick with Porsche approved engine oil. I would also stick with Porsche approved coolant and gear oil. You could spends weeks reading the posts debating these subjects but I think the systems supported by those three (engine, engine cooling, trans) are worth the extra cost and trusting Porsche engineers. Sure they have dropped the ball on occasion, but overall I think Porsche engineers tend to go with high quality fluids with some solid reasoning supporting their choices.
I didn't care what brand or flavor of oil, just not a 20wt. I'm no fan of Mobil 1, but it's rated by Porsche for this model in the proper weight(kinematic viscosity).
Woke up early this morning antsy to drive this new (to me) car since I haven't touched it
in the three days that I've owned it. I thought I drive it around a bit, get used to its feel
and sounds, and then do an oil change afterwards.
But it started raining, so I changed the oil on the miata instead since it was already up
on the lift. I didn't even bother to warm up the oil since I last drove it a few weeks ago.
By late afternoon the rain stopped and I fired up the car and went to pick up a buddy
who wanted to check it out and we went for a drive. When cold the shifting
was a bit reluctant, the clutch was a bit grabby, the engine seems to have a little
miss when idling. But it all cleared after a few miles. The car felt really sure footed
in curvy roads, at 6 tenth the car felt like it has a lot more grip than a normal street tires.
This is wearing four year old Hankook v12 evos, the worst tire I've ever bought when I
had them on a mazda 3 FWD.
After about 40 miles we stopped for gas and turned around. Within a few miles the car
suddenly started making a funny noise, as if something was grinding, or as if the floorboard
disappeared and you can hear the road noise. This noise was louder when I gave it a little
gas, and disappeared when I lift. My immediate reaction was my IMS bearing must have
given up the ghost, or the pistons were scraping the cylinders, or any other ailment that I
have yet to ead in these forums. But I didn't pull over since it was on a mountain road
with no place to pull over, and traffic was fairly heavy but smooth flowing. I also thought
it could also be wheel bearings or worn brake pads scraping since the road was curvy, and my oil pressure and coolant temps
were fine, a clock symbol warning light lit up on the dash. The car felt normal otherwise. My buddy was busy googling what
could be wrong on his phone and told me that light was for cruise control, I was driving normally but was wondering if this was to be the shortest
and most expensive car ownership I've ever experienced.
Cutting to the chase, once the mountain road straighten out and we were on level ground,
the noise disappeared, and everything was normal. I was asking my friend if he thought we
were really doing 87mph when it felt so calm and serene inside, we concluded that the digital
speedometer must be way off. We couldn't be going much faster than 70mph.
When I got home, I connected the OBDII reader, and it found no pending fault. Oil level
at the dipstick was fine, oil smelled fine.
The tire pressure was 24psi LF, 20psi RF, 30psi LR and RR. I pumped them up to 35psi front and 41psi rear
(I think that was the numbers printed on the hood). I have the standard 225-40-18 and 265-35-18.
The puzzling question remains, did I suffer any engine failure? Are there electric fans in the front
radiators? I wonder if they were making that scrapping noise when they kicked in during that uphill
climb.
More investigation tomorrow, I'll do the oil change, check the oil filter for metal bits, and send
some sample to Blackstone for analysis. In the meantime, what do you guys think happened?
First off congrats on the new ride and just like everyone else we want to see pics lol... I was in a very similar situation as you about 6 months ago. I purchased my 2001 996 C2 with 74k miles. I got a PPI which was a complete waste because they told me many things were wrong that I found out later there were no issues at all so you saved money there. Here is what I did right away....
1. LN engineering IMS bearing along with RMS seal. Oil change had filter cut open to check for debris. Replaced all fluids and flushed system.
2. Clutch was replaced. Spark plugs replaced. You have a 1999 so you have Variocam wear pads just like me that they did away with after 2000 but you will need to do them. They deteriorate and can end up in your oil and cause hot spots that leads to a cracked head. Water pump was replaced and also a LN low thermostat temp was put in.
3. Timing was checked as well as any "stretch" in the chains (you have 5 by the way). Drive belt was replaced.
3. AOS (air oil separator) was replaced which is extremely important.
I remember being freaked out with everyone telling you are driving a ticking time bomb and everything else but what I have learned is stick with your service intervals, listen for engine noises and hangs your oil every 5k miles at a shop that knows these cars. Lastly drive it as much as you possibly can the more the better for these engines and for you lol.
If you are in the Los Angeles area I can send you to a shop that I trust with my life. Hope that helps now get us so pics already.
Recommended tire pressures for 18" are 36 front and 44 rear. I generally run a couple lb less for better ride quality.
Agree that the noise could be a wheel bearing. Recently had to replace one and the symptoms were similar for me.
Your thought about it being the cooling fan isn't too bad IMO. Came on while climbing the mountain and shut off when you got to flat and level. Since you should probably clean the debris behind the A/C condenser anyway, you could test the radiator fan while you are there. Or, I understand the fan should run any time the A/C is on so you could just do that and listen for your noise.
I ran the A/C and there was no funny noise, so may be it wasn't the fan :-(
Drove it about ten miles this morning to get ready for an oil change, and there was
no funny noises from the car, no check engine light, everything seemed normal.
Now I'll see if I figure out how to post some pictures..
Very clean indeed. I only spotted some oil sweating/stain on the passenger side cylinder head. You may want to check the AOS vent hose connection there (below the a/c compressor). The airbox needs to be removed to access that area.
You guys must be in the snow area. Typical california cars
have clean undercarriage. My ten year old mazda with also about 80K
miles is still shiny everywhere underneath. That is probably why california
cars fetch a little more in the 2nd hand market, they're much easier to work
on since the bolts are not rusted together.
This one is a couple weeks shy of 18 yrs old, but the engine is 11 yrs old.
Took advantage of mothers' day sale at Harbour Freight and picked up
a 6 gallon oil collection thingy, now oil change is a breeze. Wish I did
that yesterday when I was also changing the oil on the miata.
Unfortunately I couldn't finish the oil change. The mahle filter cartridge has a smaller
inner diameter than the old one, and the drain plug washer is too large.
Need to order another filter, drain plug washer, and may be a new drain
plug since my 8mm allen socket feels loose inside and the plug was so
tight I need a breaker bar to undo. Unless the drainplug needs a 9mm
allen socket?
Tomorrow I'll cut open the paper filter to examine for metal bits, and
I'll send in the oil sample for analysis.
Enough work for one day.
Bad news I'm afraid.
Just opened up the oil filter and found lots of looks like hard plastic
bits. I also saw a few shiny possible metal bits, but the are really
small specks, on the order of 0.1mm, may be a few specks in the filter.
There must be a few dozen of these plastic bits, in the order or 1-2mm size.
I'll load the pictures next.
After seeing what's in the filter, I couldn't fall asleep, and decided to research
what plastic bits can be inside the engine, seems like the chain tensioner
guide/skid is made of plastic or plastic like substance, and is known to
wear in '99 engines.
But I was bothered by the shapes of the bits, they are sharp and pointy
as well as droplet like. I imagine the tensioner worn bits would be more
like wood shavings. So I went to the garage and check the bits again.
I think I found the culprit. The same paper filter element are jointed at
the seam using some sort of adhesive, and in my filter, there are noticeable
droplets on the edge of the filter seam, and this stuff looks just like the bits
I found. So I think the oil filter had too much adhesive/glue oozing out
of the seam, and over time they break off in chunks and circulated around
the engine and eventually lodged inside the filter.
The bad news is this stuff is pretty hard and possibly abrasive, the good
news is that the bits are still softer than metal even though they are pointy
and sharp, so I hope they didn't really do damage to the engine. I'd say
hardness wise they are a bit harder than epoxy, almost cured JB weld
type of material.
Big question is, what to do next? Borescope?
And how do I clean this up? Do a couple back to back oil and filter change to
flush out the bits? Should the handful of really tiny shiny possible metallic
bits be of concern?
The oil sample was already sent to Blackstone for analysis early this morning.
Agree with rockhouse - drop the sumo
How long ago was the last oil change?
Ignore the metal
I'm going to go with plastic can't scratch metal so done worry about that (but i could be wrong) - but what it can do is block passages and filters.
I would also get a magnetic drain plug and either the LN spin on oil filter or a new OEM filter housing, You don't want non filtered oil running through the engine.
As an aside - no expert here - but frequent forum reader - I have read every OMG my engine failed and non have started with plastic in the oil filter.
Get the pan off. Good views up there to further diagnose. You can use a high intensity light to see if there's plastic bits clinging to various parts of the engine.
I'll drop the oil pan to take a further look, what do you use for the funny
star shaped bolts. Is there an untightening sequence, I guess I'll
ask about torque and tightening sequence when I re-assemble.
Here's is a picture of the source of these plastic bits. I was thinking
that if the oil filter never opened the bypass, all the bits should
be contained in the filter and the cartridge, and shouldn't make it
to the engine.
Hell no. PM Paul Waterloo on here and ask him to borrow his microscope IMMEDIATELY! You don't know what you're dealing with until you get it under that microscope.
The bolts are Torx head, and Porsche uses a lot of them, so you might as well buy a set of Torx sockets. I just did this job on my car so it is fresh in my mind.
You will have to carefully pry all around the perimeter of the plate to break it loose. Be gentle and keep going around as you don't want to break anything or scar the sealing surface. Clean the gasket surfaces on both the block and sump plate with a razor blade to remove all previous sealant. I also used some Scotch Brite to remove the residue then wiped both with acetone. I used Loctite 574 but I would think any anerobic flange sealant would work. Torque value is 7.5 ft..-lbs. or 90 in.-lbs. I just went round and round though I did go up in steps. First just past hand tight, then 50 in.-lbs., then 90. I also gave the sealant overnight to cure before refilling with oil but you probably don't have to do this.
No Scotchbrite on sealing surface please. Maybe one has the right density, and maybe one has the right touch to do it without damage, but - maybe not.
Use the right chemicals and a rag. If you must use a safety razor edge be cautious, the razor can cut into the Al surface. If one has to use it:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/MMM0/37448.oap
and go very gentle.
I'll have to wait till I get the correct star/torx sockets before I can
drop the oil pan and finish up my oil change.
Since I haven't put in oil, I can still decide to use something different.
From the owner's manual about engine oil recommendation:
For ambient temperature mostly higher than 50F, which is the case
for me, it recommends 15W-40, 20W-50, or 20W-40 for mineral oil,
and 10W-40, 15W-40, 15W-50 for synthetic oil.
Then in bold:
"Use only engine oils labelled as API SH or ILSAC GF-1 and viscosity
of SAE 10W-40 or higher. For continuous weather conditions with
ambient temperatures of mostly below 32F/0C, use SAE 5W-30 engine
oils."
Why is everyone, including my previous owner using 0W-40?
Since my car will spend days or weeks sitting in the garage not driven,
would a heavier weight oil stay on better on the bearings, timing chain
wear pads, ..etc so starting it will not incur too much wear?
I agree. I used the white Scotchbrite - not sure which is less abrasive, the gray or the white, but I know it is very fine and not like the green stuff. I used it to remove the dark specks that remained after scraping, but I no doubt could have just left those and it would seal fine. And it is easy to knick the surface with the razor blade so you have to go slowly and keep the blade laid back almost horizontal.
Dropped the oil pan tonight, found more plastic bits, and the pieces
are bigger than those trapped in the oil filter, which tells me the plastic
didn't come from the oil filter. All the plastic pieces were located near
the oil pickup area (inside the black plastic windage enclosure. Looking
around all the plastic pieces in the sump area, I didn't see any damage,
but saw a tiny hole in the black plastic windage baffle. It didn't look
chipped, it was nice and smooth so I don't know if it was there by design,
or a small chunk of it broke. Found a couple pieces stuck in the metal
screen of the oil pickup.
Do I need to disassemble all the plastic bits to check for internal damage?
Externally I saw nothing obvious, but black plastic coated in dirty oil
makes it hard to see.
Some pics:
You may want to use Durametric to check the cam deviations. If they are far out or not steady, it's even more reason to replace the variocam pads sooner rather than later. Since your plastic bits are black, I think they came from the main chain (between crank amd cams) rails.
hi ahsai,
I'm new to porsche (owner for exactly one week), so your message is
a bit like greek to me. Where is the variocam pad and is it replaceable
without taking apart the engine?
thanks
OK, you took a risk on a no-PPI deal and have not picked the brass ring. So, you've got some work ahead of you(or larger checks). Now you know more of what you know, but you still don't know what you don't know. That is - you don't know which piece of plastic is going bad. Or, if this is a cumulative deal from multiple. The short answer here is that all of them should be replaced. The cam chain guides can all be replaced without removing the engine, but it's a lot easier with the engine out.
Alternately you can just 'go drive' until it comes apart eventually, and we'll have another roller chassis avail on the market. Meh - I guess valve-piston interference isn't fatal to the whole engine, but it sure is a lot more expensive than doing the guides now.
Another option since no one knows you on here is to put it back together, have it shipped to Chicago, or maybe Miami, and sell it there, then try again with another 996 and get a proper PPI(note - this is not a recommendation, but an option).
My current thinking is that the plastic bits have been there
a) since a week ago when I first drove it,
b) since last oil change (I'm guessing a couple thousand miles, a year
or two).
c) several years, through several oil changes.
If it is b) or c), I'm not too worried about a catastrophic chain failure
for the next few hundred miles.
If it is a), I should drop everything else and attend to it right away.
But I have no way to tell if it is a), b), or c), so I'm not going to drop
the engine now and waste a good driving season :-)
So I should button it back up and drive it, and dissect the oil filter
every few hundred miles to see if there are further plastic
bits (cheap insurance).
Now to reassemble:
Do I need loctite for these small bolts that attach the plastic parts
to the inside of the engine? The torque on these bolts are low since
otherwise they'll crush the plastic, but they are subject to heavy
vibration inside the crankcase. If I need loctite, what type do I
need that can cure in the presence of motor oil?
Order new bolts and loctite 5900. I just got mine in today from rmeuropean. The new bolts have thread lock already on them. Torque them to 7.5 lbs.
You didn't ask my opinion, but this is RL, so here it is anyways. I think you are a fool. You could easily cost yourself 10-15k by sticking your head in the sand and continuing to drive your car. There are also some high end rebuilders that you will not be able to use when it fails because they don't work with people that don't take of their cars. But don't worry, MBM will still take your money when you're ready. Best of luck.
I'm not a nervous nelly by any means, but your engine is SCREAMING at you that something is wrong. I consider the scenario where the PO did an oil change(or had it changed) and found bits of plastic in the filter, then sent it to the detail shop, and put the 'for sale' sign up. But- you are right that we don't know how long the engine has been shedding phenolic bits. All we know for certain is that it IS currently shedding phenolic bits, and it's not supposed to do that. We also know that you didn't have a full flow filter on the engine so a certain amount of bits have gone through the oil pump screen, pump, and into the oil galleries to the bearings. And now - the whole world knows that as well.
Lets say you find an indie shop that will do the cam tensioners for $3k(I really have no idea of the cost, but a fair guess). At the same time, you put in the later model baffles, deep sump, full flow filter, and new cam cover and COP seals, maybe adds another $800. You've got a nice running engine, with a secure valve train for under $4k. The price of a valve interference can easily double that. The price of a catastrophic failure can triple that and way more. BTW, I was just kidding about buttoning it up and sending it to Miami for sale. In case that didn't come across well.
The smaller ones are the ones that have been through the oil pump. What's going to happen if a larger chunk breaks off that isn't small enough to get chewed up by the chains? Or you get enough to effectively block the pickup?
Is the oil filter on the intake or on the output side of the oil pump?
I assume it is on the output side of the pump. So plastic bits flowed
into the sump, some of them are small enough to go through
the wire screen and into the pump. The pump grinds them up
and spits them out into smaller bits, these bits then go into
the dirty side of the filter and get trapped by the filter, so
ideally we shouldn't have plastic bits clogging the oil passages.
But if the oil filter bypass valve was opened, then the bits can get
everywhere inside the engine. This is my worst case scenario.
(OK, the worst case scenario is soon after I fixed this problem, one of the
other 19 failure cases materialises and I have to fix it again).
My best case scenario is there was no bypass, so the oil passages are
fine. The question then is will the chain guide/pad continue to
shed plastic bits, or once the defective part broke off, the rest
of the plastic continue to function normally, and slowly wear away
like in a normal engine.
Fortunately I don't depend on this car, my daily driver is a FIAT so
I can still drive all over the place to chase parts :-)
More likely is a chain tooth jump when the vario switches the guide, and if it jumps one tooth maybe ok, just the check engine light. two teeth, maybe ok, maybe not, three tooth jump and head rebuild, plus chains, and sprockets(crack cases), plus guides.
I actually liked those Fiat 124, 128, and 131 back then, thought they
had nice exhaust tones.
My 2015 Fiat may not be that much more reliable than fiats of old.
It lit all kinds of check engine lights (traction control, ABS, ..etc)
just a few days after I took delivery and had only 100miles
on the odometer. Dealer said the ABS sensor failed. But it has
been trouble free after that got fixed.
We'll see how the 996 measures up in reliability :-)
I think the chunks that are too large to fit through the sump filter screen
will just stay in the oil pan and may eventually get flushed out in
subsequent oil changes. In the picture I posted, the bottom paper towel
has the big chunks retrieved from the sump. The top paper towel has
the small chunks that went through the screen, ground up by the oil pump,
and got trapped by the oil filter.
1 post he was new the forum, now its 20 due to a lot of questions. Not every new Porsche owner comes to RL, Pelican, etc to get detailed info on the Marquee. Your comment of him being a fool is only true he if continues to drive the vehicle.
I think I'll be the fool and drive the car despite the warnings. Don't really have a choice.
I can't leave it sitting on my lift to rot, it is not going to itself, and I'm not competent
enough to pull the engine and do the repair myself. If this were a normal
front engine inline or v6, I may give it a try. With the flat 6, I'm completely
unfamiliar with, I don't even know the firing order, ..etc.
I may get a local shop to do the work, but all local mechanics are strangers
to me so there isn't anyone I feel I can trust. In the meantime, I'll probably
drive it, if she blows, she blows.
But I think with advice from you guys, I may be able to nurse it enough
to not blow before I get around to getting it fixed.
For local pcar mechanic, join PCA, go to an event, and ask 5 guys who services their Porsche. You'll get a pretty good lay of the land.
Good luck, I really hope you the best. And kudos for not just dumping it right back out onto the market.
You really need to take RL with a grain of salt. So, you bought a car, you took it for a drive and it wasn't perfect. Your tires were severely under-inflated. You changed the oil and found a fair number of bits of plastic but you do not know when the last oil change was done. So you dropped the sump and found more plastic.
If I understand this, based on one drive and some plastic that got into the oil sometime in the past, people are telling you to rebuild the motor or button it up and sell it.
First most of the PPIs done aren't really worth diddly. Second you have not cleaned the sump, replaced the filter and refilled the oil then driven it again.
You have gotten two really good suggestions: have the car checked for cam deviations and join the PCA.
Now my suggestion (also take with a grain of salt-it isn't my motor on the line): put it back together, get the tire pressure up to spec, talk to your local PCA chapter and get a few recommendations for a good indie and take the car to him. Tell him what you found, show him the bits and let him tell you what he finds. Everything that happens on a forum is guess work, well intentioned, and knowledgeable but we don't own the car, we haven't driven the car and we have not touched the car. It looks to me like main chain tensioner pad material but a good indie will know. Don't let us turn your new car into a nightmare. Get some professional help. These cars are different and for all you know the material has been floating around in the sump for ten years.
If the car came with normal oil filter I would not have bothered cutting
it open and examining the contents, and would be blissfully unaware
of the plastic bits. Life would be simple and I would be happy, until
one day (a few days from now, or a few years from now) when it goes
kaboom :-)
I talked to four independents shops about PPI before I decided to forgo a PPI.
None would do a compression check or leakdown as standard procedure, only
one shop was willing to do one for an additional $350+$75. Mostly they talked
about a 5page extensive report, 65 item checklists, ...blah blah... I don't really car if the windshield washer fluid is low, or the wiper blades need replacing, ..etc. I care about the most expensive part of these car which
is the engine and they skimp on that, telling me that if anything is amiss
it'll trigger some check engine light or error code so there is nothing
to worry about :-)
Yes, I'll go to a PCA autox next week and talk to local people and see what they
suggest. Originally I was to take the car there and really get to play with it.
thanks
Many shops and dealerships will not even do a PPI and if they do it is intentionally cursory. There are lots of possible legal ramifications involved with a PPI. Sometimes a bad PPI can end up costing the company that did the PPI hundreds of thousands of dollars so most PPIs list everything they can find even remotely wrong and they do not get intrusive into the engine or transmission. They tend very strongly toward the car is junk, to protect themselves in case it is.
Recommendations from local PCA members are invaluable for finding yourself the right shop and you need a good shop at least until you have the necessary tools and knowledge to do it all yourself. Some things you can never do yourself (like make a spare key).
Also a compression check on a 996 isn't usually all that helpful. Because of the types of cylinder damage that affects 996s tend to not show up on compression checks, hence the boroscope.
I did a post-purchase inspection on my '99; Black Forest gave me a very thorough list of things to do now, sometime soon, and someday. I'm still working on the "someday" list.
Good point on the P-PI they are useful. Actually a PPI by a good shop is very useful as well. The problem is that what we worry about on a 996 is almost entirely the motor. That is the part they don't help much with. Basically they can listen for bad noise, drive for obvious bad plugs/coils and check the filter for metal. Ferrous metal or copper, don't buy. Otherwise, flip a coin. Best candidate, oldish oil with no metal.
They do give you a good overall idea of the general condition of the car and like 5CHN3LL, I got a nice todo list.
I would say it's the vario pads in the heads , when I rebuilt my engine all the chain rails were ok with light marks but the vario pads in the heads were completely trashed, maybe you could get away with doing this replacement and maybe flushing the engine a few times to make sure all the bits are out, hey maybe you could do yourself with some help??
the oil report arrived today, it says the level of lead is a bit high,
but everything else is ok (see comments in the picture).
Ignoring my worn chain rails for a moment, I sent for analysis to
tell whether or not the IMS bearing is potentially a problem. Do
we know if lead content is an indication of the condition of the
ball bearings in the IMSB?
Does anyone know how I can crank the engine without starting it? Like disable the
fuel pump/injection and ignition? I reassembled the oil pan tonight and will fill the
crankcase with oil and want to crank it a bunch to see if there are more plastic bits
going into the oil filter, but don't want to actually start the engine.
Thanks
Thanks ahsai! I know I won't do much with oil pressure from cranking.
But I want to:
1) crank and get some oil on the chain pads and everywhere else since the engine has
been dry for two weeks.
2) I'll crank it without starting for a few days and check my oil filter
again to see if it traps any more plastic bits. If there are plastic
bits in the engine still I rather have them move to the filter at cranking
speed rather than at engine running speed.
You previously mentioned durametric cam timing check. Can you elaborate
on that? Is that something I can ask an indy shop to do?
thanks
Yes, an indy shop should be able to check that as long as they have the Porsche specific scanner such as Durametric.
There's a real-time value under the DME section called cam deviation in degrees of crankshaft angle. It should be 0 degree +/- 6 degrees for both banks when read after engine is completely warmed up. The value should be rock solid at all engine revs.
Thanks,
Duncan
hi duncan,
sorry for being dense. Where are the fuses in this car? I couldn't find them
last night.
Ideally if I can crank the car with a remote starter switch, that will be great.
Is there a lead on the starter relay that I can hook up a remote starter switch
between +12V and this lead that I can just crank the car without firing
the fuelpump, injectors, and sparkplugs, and possibly confuse the computer
thinking something is wrong?
thanks
You could hook up a remote starter switch by attaching one lead to the 12V jumper terminal in the engine bay and the starter solenoid post (little post). That should kick the starter over as long as it has the 12V supply (big wire). It will be difficult to reach in there to connect with the TB and other stuff in the way, unless that is still off the engine. Never tried it but in theory it should work.
I think a push button remote starter switch and a single pole double throw
switch mounted somewhere near the engine bay would work great.
The starter's start pin (the thinner wire) goes to the pole, and one of the
throw is the original connection, the other goes to the remote starter
switch. The other end of the remote starter switch goes to +12V.
This way when selecting the remote starter switch, only the starter
is energised, none of the car's electronic needs to know, and the clutch
switch isn't even in the picture. When the switch selects the original circuit,
the remote starter switch is out of the picture.
I buttoned up the oil pan, and drove to visit a couple of indy shops.
One shop suggested that I make an appointment to do a cam deviation test,
but he says if deviation is >6degrees (ideally no more than 1-2 degrees),
he can't do anything about it since he doesn't rebuild water cool engines.
He says if it is due to the variocam pads wear he may be able to do something
but I wonder how we can tell where the plastic bits are from.
I just came back from another shop. He also suggested I make an appointment next week to check cam deviation, and he also doesn't
rebuild engines. He says he suspect there are probably small bits
of plastic in every 996 oil pan, and he told me my engine sounds nice
and smooth, though the tranny has some strange noises that needs to
be looked into. He suggested to check the tranny oil for metal bits.
While driving on the highway to this shop, the car was making that same
funny noise I reported on my first drive right after I picked up the
car a few weeks ago. This was
taking an uphill exit ramp, 5th gear, at no to light throttle transition.
I now suspect the noise is not from the engine, but the tranny.
The previous owner says he occasionally got a noise after he
put in a lighter flywheel (instead of the original dual-mass) and a new clutch
that he thought it was some sort of resonance from the flywheel.
My tranny is quiet until it is fully warmed up then it makes random
noises.
Sorry for the long winded reply. I guess I'll have to wait for the
cam deviation test before I know more.
Took the car in to the mechanic to get the cam timing deviation checked.
It showed 0.0 on both banks. The mechanics gathered around and
said that is not a believable number since they've never seen 0.0 in any car.
I told them I unplugged a few fuses when I cranked the car after it sat
without oil for a couple of weeks. They wonder if somehow that cleared
the deviation. But it did show voltage faults and injector faults in all
cylinders (because injector fuses were pulled).
It also showed range1 overrevs of about 4000 about 16 operating hours
ago. I guess the previous owner or someone test drove the car and
overreved it. No range2 overrevs. 3010hours total.
I'll drive it for a couple hundred miles and go back to get the cam deviation
check to see if we get a proper reading.
Took my car to the indy shop again this morning to having the cam deviation checked.
They were still getting 0.0 on both banks, revving the engine didn't make a different.
The guys were stumped. I wonder if my DME was running something funky software,
or if the dealer replaced it with something different when they replaced the engine 11 yrs
ago.
I may have to find another shop or someone in the SF bay area
with a durametric to get a cam deviation reading :-(
I know they could at least read idle rpm, ignition timing (4.5 to 5.5 degrees
during idle), ..etc.
