996 vs 928 buying advice

Greetings Car Friends, So lately I have been getting tired of my 2015 WRX CVT (don't laugh I drove 160 miles daily and went with manual --- big mistake) 56k miles on it lol. It's stage 2 and is quite a beast. I put quite a bit of $ into it so I won't be selling it (I think). However, started looking into a manual second car to use on sunny days. My search resulted in being bitten by a Porsche big. To make long story short, at first I put the budget at under 10k and set my sites on 928. But for the life of me I can not find one in good shape for less than 12k or so. So I looked further and saw that one can buy a relatively nice boxster or a 996 for around 15-17k. I dismissed the boxster (the most populous choice) because I need back seats to drive kids to school. And now looking for 996. I live in Rockalnd county NY and there are so many cars to choose from (a lot of 996s around not so many 928s). To end this magnum opus. I would like to hear your advice on whether I can get a decent 996 for around 15k and if you know any good examples in the tristate area. The car would be used as 2-3 times a week daily for 80 miles (total per day). Any advice and other thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

For 15k, a 996 would likely need some work, I would say that closer to 20k would be able to find you a relatively clean 996.1. Sounds like you would have a blast with it there though, and these cars do well when you actually drive them. Just familiarize yourself with their strong and weak points before pulling the trigger on one, which should be pretty apparent just reading through the first page or two of this subforum.

Welcome. I think $15K is about the minimum you'll pay for a 996. But at that price it will likely be very high mileage or there may be issues that will need to be addressed in the near future. Suggest you read through some of this thread: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ist-finds.html You'll find lots of good advice here and other places on this forum (try searching).

PRICE TO BUY vs. COST TO OWN. Keep this mind when shopping. Best of luck.

Do some research on the 928 if you haven't already. They aren't known to be as reliable as the 996, and you could end up with a money pit if you buy a 928. I've wanted one ever since the "Risky Business" days, but I don't know if I'll ever buy one. The people who own them don't seem to depend on them for regular transportation.

Just my $0.02 here but $15k won't get you a nice example of either the 928 or 996. Keep in mind that the last 928 rolled off the line back in 1995. You'd want a GTS and those are running close to $40k last I looked. Super nice road cruisers though - I had a 928S as my first p-car. If you want to top out at $15k I would recommend a 968. Yes, the last of those rolled off the line in 1995 as well, but nicely a maintained example can be had for $15k to $20k. Happy hunting!

If you dont know anything about a 928, stay away. If you arent a excellent mechanic, stay away. Its a 1970s car, the whole interior is disintegrated and every rubber or plastic piece on the car needs to be replaced. And you will have to keep it running to boot. A 996 was the first trouble free car porsche made. It has a few problems but it is a 1990s car and much more reliable and still mostly in tact. My advice is if you can barely afford a porsche, dont get into it because its going to cost a whole lot more to drive than a chevy etc. And youll end up wasting all youre money on it, and youll end up with nothing.

Thanks a lot all of you. I have not looked into a 968 but I will. As to being able to afford. I can afford a toy just want to keep it around 15k and nightmare free. I do understand that these cars require $ to run which I don't mind. I do mind replacing engines transmissions or being stranded.

Focus on the '99. It's arguably the best 996 and it's the least expensive to boot. If you are patient, great deals can be found. I got mine off a PCA classified for $14.5k with 80k miles on it. Guy was asking 17k but was ready to sell. It had IMS, RMS and clutch done 10k miles ago. I did AOS and water pump and have been smiling ever since. Note: it's important to know the what and why of each of those acronyms before you buy.

Here are a couple of examples. Maintenance history and a good PPI are a must! Steer clear of dealer cars with no history. http://atcm.co/S2PVDP/19AB7FD9 http://atcm.co/S2PVDP/190A6E50

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That's a smoking deal.

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Yup. It makes me feel like I vastly overpaid for mine...

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I offered $16.5 on a 19,900 ask. Had to do the clutch, RMS & IMS though. Oh well, I love it, which is what matters!

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Totally agree with this - and also be prepared to pounce if the right car appears. Found mine locally on Craigslist, ad went up at 10 on a Friday morning and I'd put a deposit down a few hours later. $15,750 for a very nicely optioned C4 with all the potential failure points addressed pretty recently. Also agree with the 968 (or 944S2?) recommendation, but I guess it depends what you're looking for. I looked at a couple but in the end decided it had to be a 996.

I just got lucky. I think 18k is about market value for under 100k miles. But as long as you are under 20k with getting the maintenance updated it's still the best car value out there in my opinion.

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It's all that matters. I paid a tad over 20, but had fairly new clutch, IMS done, etc. Of course, once you get to know the car, you start tinkering here and there, spending money� But the smiles are priceless.

Thanks a lot. Found this local shop for ppi locally. http://www.cimmotorsports.net/ Anyone heard of em? I am expanding my search to include 986 and 944s.

There was a guy on the forums selling a super clean 95 968 for $15.9k, that might be interesting if you're looking at 944s as well. I paid around 17 for my 99 C4 with 53k on it, so I don't think it should be too hard to find a clean, early 996 in the 15-18k range as Slakker said.

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Thanks.

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Thanks. Looking is so time consuming

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Remember sports cars have a premium in SoCal. I would expect your car to be a few grand more here.

Leo I too live in Rockland County. I am selling a really nice 996 C4 Aero here on rennlist, but a bit over your budget. My recommendation is a 996 priced at 15,K is going to end up costing you considerably more in the long run. For that money you just cannot beat a 986 or even an early 987. They are amazing cars, and finding a real nice one under 15K is very doable. I personally lean towards the early 2.5 liter cars. They are the most fun and with the double chain IMS can be very reliable. Best of Luck.

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Thanks Kurt. Mind pm'ing me details of your car and reason u r selling.

I agree you won't find a 996 worth buying for 10k. If your patient you'll get one well under 20. But if you start looking at 986s I'd look at s2000s. Get a higher mileage, clean s2k for under 15k.

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Thanks I know 996 for 10 is not possible. But close to 15ish? S2000 Honda is not for me

Check this out. The interview is awful and the guy is absolutely not budging on price. http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/cto/5634550359.html

I think that a 944 is probibly the most troublesum porsche ever made, as I said the 996 was the first almost trouble free porsche

Don't forget Canadian Cars. You are currently at a price advantage due to the USD being stronger than the CAD to the tune of $1.30 (last time I checked). Quebec is not too far away from New York State and widens the field, not sure about import duty etc, but worth a look? This one looks like a good proposition: http://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/s...168114319?null At his full asking price of $21.5K CAD= $16.5USD, its a US car so MPH Speedo, seems to have IMS and clutch.

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If I spoke French, I could have more of an opinion about this.

AFAIK a US car it can be reimported without paying duty. Ymmv though.

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That's why they invented Google Translate . Close to Montreal, they will probably speak passable English.

WOW, these prices are depressing. I paid well over $40K for my 2000 C2...then again that was many, many moons ago...

Agree with Slakker that if you are patient, you can get a nice Mk I 996 in the $15k- $17k range. Also, the past 3 months have been the seller's market time of the year. Wait about 10 weeks until after Labor Day and you will see prices come down about 10 percent and good cars sitting on the market longer (more inventory to choose from).

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That is a sage advice kind sir. Gives me more time to ponder. Maybe i will get a boxster after all. So many options so little money

Well now, I have been running my 1988 S4 as a daily driver for 5 years. It cost me $14K back in 2010. By this point it has cost me a lot of maintenance even though it supposedly was "sorted" at the time I bought it. My shop, the only credible choice here in Fresno, is no longer willing or able to deal with the many problems that the 928 presents. They are pushing me to get rid of it and buy a 996. They are actually helping me to find a suitable 996, because that's what they feel like they can work on without endless drama and guesswork. I have decided to take their advice and sell my 928 this year, and get in to a 996 or possibly 997 if I can afford it. I'd say it depends what kind of thing you are going for. If you require a daily driver that shops can fix for you, the decision is a no-brainer in favor of 996. If you are interested in a hobby car that you keep in a garage and work on yourself, I'd say a 928 can be a great option.

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Another excellent asvice. Thanks. What about boxster vs 996 to save a buck or 2?

I've had both a 986 and now my 996. The 986 was by far the more reliable and economical car for me. The 986 is an extremely fun and well balanced car, but I found it a bit lacking as a track car. The 996 excels on track so if you plan on going to the track my advice is get the 996 because you will be disappointed with the Boxster. If you want a car strictly for the street then go for the 986 (just ignore those that say it's a hairdressers car - it really is a great P-car).

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Thanks! No tracking for me. You think I can get a decent manual 986 for around 10? What year should that be for that price. Hard to get my head around prices. Also, S or regular (what's the price difference).

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Really? I must be living in a dream world. In my 6 years of 928 ownership I've found my 928s (plural...I've had a few) to be reliable if looked after. The 1988 S4 I have now has been extremely reliable. I've had to fix some things that non-mechanically inclined types would be scared to attempt, but nothing that stopped me from driving the car. You don't need to be an excellent mechanic to start - but you do need to be willing to become a good one unless you have lots of disposable income (thanks to Rennlist 928 forum). I love working on the 928. There's something about defying the legendary myth of it's complexity and improving its condition that adds to the pleasure of owning it. Fortunately, almost everything works on my 88. I prioritize what needs to be fixed, ignore things that can wait (remote hatch release) - and drive it! All the rubber and plastic is original and generally in very good condition - exceptions are under the hood where some plastic bits are getting brittle. Not bad for a 28 year old car. You do need to buy the nicest example you can find. You will be better off buying a nice one (owned by an enthusiast) and paying $20k+ than thinking you'll buy one for under $10K and fix it up for less than another $10K. Mine isn't perfect, but it's a great driver. It's probably a $15K to $17K car - and will likely be $2-3K more by next summer. I paid $11K 3 years ago. You can't be afraid to do this kind of thing... Diving into the dash to replace HVAC vent actuators (and remove a lot of wiring added by previous owners) And put it all back together again... Replace motor mounts... and perfect time to replace the OPG since the cross member and suspension are partially removed.. And these are just a few of the kinds of things the typical 928 owner wants to do themselves (with great support from Rennlist)...and because it's not a good idea to let mechanics who've never seen a 928 on a lift learn on your car). There are many 928 owners who are brilliant and are true 928 experts. I appreciate how freely they share their knowledge on Rennlist. Other aspects of 928 ownership that I really enjoy: - they are unique and interesting (make a great hobby) - 35+ years ago Ferry Porsche said it is a "timeless" design and he was right - rarity - I almost never see another 928 on the road. - the community of owners

What an amazing post. Makes me understand that this wonderful automobile is not for me. I am not mechanically inclined and this would be a disaster for me. Plus wife would throw me out of the house. I spend little enough time with family as is (job). Oh well it will have to be a more ordinary Porsche for me most likely. Too bad. I love this thing.

A friend of mine recently bought a high mileage (I forgot the number, but close to 200K) 996 for 10K. I looked at the car, and it is in pretty good shape. He is pleased with it. But, for the most part, cheap 996s will turn out to be expensive 996s.

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Understood. What's a reasonable price then? Not 10k ...15k. Or is that still too low and will be a beaten up thing ?

If you budget low 20s, you should be able to find a decent 996. Be sure to have a 5K reserve for "unknowns." You may need to tap the reserve, but you may not. I know you said you need rear seats, but if there is any way around that, you can find a good Boxster for under 10K.

After owning a bundle of Porsches from 944's to 951's to a 930, 996 and seven 928's I can say I am always drawn back to the 928. I currently have 2. The fact is it's a Porsche and if something effs up it's going to cost you. If you can't burn $100 notes by the handful then one these cars may not be for you. There are guys on this forum that have bought 996's and Boxsters and a week later they have had a total engine failure. There goes $15-20K. In saying that, you only live once and you may as well live large.

I've owned and daily driven a 914, two different 944 Turbos, and two different 928s a GT and a GTS, a Boxster S and several other non-P cars. My opinion is no matter what kind of "sport car" you get it is going to cost you money for upkeep period. Both in maintenance and upgrades, and you will always want to do upgrades. What you need to decide is if you like the looks of and more importantly how it drives. Then the costs of keeping it running as a daily driver become moot. After driving the different models and choosing the one you like most, get the best example you can afford and set back some money to take care of some repairs once you get it. As a normal rule people don't sell cars with nothing wrong or some sort of maintenance that has been deferred or neglected. The 90 928 GT was the cheapest sports car with a back seat to maintain and was my only car daily driven for 2 years.

I'm 6'1", 200 lbs and have both a 997.1 (actually 2 counting the wife's) and a 928 Spyder (custom convertible). Both my wife I use the rear seats for the kids, currently 8 and 11 yrs old. For me, even with the 8 year old behind me in the 997, my seat has to be further forward than I'd like it to be and it's a bit cramped - I'm assuming the 996 has the same size rear seat, since the car wasn't made larger until the 991. For rear seat use, the Cabs are worse as the seatbacks is actually angled forward from vertical to make space for the folding roof, so stay with a Coupe. The 928 has a larger rear seat, but for that to be true, you probably need to find a sunroof delete version and these usually go for a premium. They have more rear seat space because with the extra headroom, even relatively tall people can recline the seat less. I mention this because depending on your size, neither option may provide a real usable back seat and you can focus your search on 2-seater cars that fall more into your price range. My wife DDs her 997 and it is a super reliable car. With a 996 you need to find one that has had the IMS bearing replaced, preferably with "The IMS Solution" as that is a lifetime upgrade, whereas the other replacement bearings have an expected service life where they should be replaced again. Other things you want to look for being replaced on the M96 motor are the waterpump (should be replaced every 50,000 miles or so even though this isn't shown in the service documentation), the clutch, and the coolant reservoir tank. The original suspension components are aluminum with rubber bushings. At the age and probably mileage of most 996s in your price range, you need to have these looked at as well, as the rubber bits aren't sold separately and you need to replace the complete aluminium arm. Motor mounts same deal, as they're rubber and are probably sagging by now. If it looks like there is excessive clearance between the exhaust tips and body of the car, that's likely motor mounts. Good luck with your search and decision.

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Thanks this is really helpful. I am leaning toward a 2 seater (boxster) based on my budget. I can figure out how to get kids to school I assume that your points re issues to look out for would apply to a boxster year models in my price range 99-2000ish.

I feel the need to defend the 944. My 944S2 ('89-'91) was a great car. If it needed something there was room to work under the hood. Properly set-up they are a blast to drive. I never owned a 968 but really like the lines and am still considering getting out of my 996 and into a 968. They may cost less to maintain but as others have written - if you need parts then be prepared for sticker shock. My 928 was a nice car as well. Super highway cruiser, but my Guards Red ended up looking almost orange by time I got out of it. Of course all the air-cooled 911's have appreciated out of your range so we can't talk about them. Being a 996 newbie I can't really comment on reliability but remember all Porsches have something that folks will bring up.

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Personally I wouldn't compromise and wish you had something later. Just keep looking out for a well cared 996. It is still modern, reliable and has most of the creature comforts. There's only apples to oranges comparison to others IMO. I dont' know how old your kids are but trust me, there's no better joy than having your kids experience the same kind of ride as you. As other's said, you can get lucky from time to time and get a decent mk1 model for $15-17k. Just be patient and do your due diligence in finding one that's been taken care of with the right paperwork/maintenance/history and ppi. Good Luck.

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^ This is great advice. I currently own a 928S4, a 951 and a 996tt. Previously owned a 964 and a NA 996. Out of all 5 of these, the NA 996 was the best daily driver. The 996tt is a better car, but I have odometer angst and rain angst and snow angst and crappy-other-driver angst, so I don't drive it as much as I'd like. The '99 996 aero coupe, on the other hand, had 148,000 miles on the odometer and that thing was fantastic and reliable and easy to work on and got good gas mileage and was comfortable and modern. I drove it everywhere all the time and enjoyed the hell out of it. My 20 year old son has daily driven the 951 since he was 15 years old, with the caveat that in the winter the past couple of years we got him another car to drive off to college. He likes it, but he prefers the more modern cars (which he will be free to buy one for himself when he graduates from college). Bottom line, the 951 has performed well as a daily driver. The 928S4 as a daily? Well, I really enjoy owning that car and it puts a smile on my face when I drive it. But it's kind of like a St. Bernard - big, sloppy, lovable, but just not particularly practical. Mine has good bones (engine, paint, interior), but the "To Do" list is a mile long and gets longer almost every time I drive it (I discover or break something that needs fixing). Boxster as a daily? You said you've got kids. Nothing against the Boxster, but if you've got kids you want to cart around, you will need/want back seats. Boxsters are great cars, despite the "chick car" stigma, but they aren't a 911. If you buy a Boxster, you'll soon find yourself wishing you had bought the 996. You rarely see anybody lamenting the opposite. Bottom line, I'd stay the course on the search for the NA 996. It and the Boxster are the best bang for the buck in the Porsche world, but you'll be happier with the 996 and the price difference is maybe $5,000. And you aren't really spending the extra $5,000, you'll easily get that back when it comes time to sell or trade the 996. So, you're really just parking the $5,000 in the car for the time that you own it, and it therefore provides extra enjoyment and practicality for basically free. That $15,000 budget you have is definitely reasonable to find a nice driver Mk I 996 - just be patient. The search is half the fun. Go drive a bunch of them. Get to know the market. Buy from a private owner - do not buy from a car lot. Don't be afraid of a 996 with 100,000 on the odometer IF it has been maintained properly. In addition to avoiding odometer angst, another nice thing about buying a 996 at the bottom end of the market is that you can avoid the "replace perfectly good parts before they break because, you know, someday they MIGHT break" mentality. With a $15,000 996, you drive it 'til something breaks, THEN you fix it. You of course keep up with the preventative maintenance, but you don't buy a $15,000 996 then drop the engine and spend $5,000 to replace the alphabet soup of parts (especially if you get a '99 which has the dual row IMS bearing). If you fall into the 1% of owners who have a dual row IMS bearing fail, then you sell the carcass for $6,000 and take the $9,000 hit, stay away from the casinos and move on.

I still can't believe how great this community/forum is. Such great advice. Thank you for all the help and information. Now, me being a noob I am being deluged with information as is but what are the few best places to look for a 996 (or any other model). I hate ebay and craigslist is sometimes hit or miss, is there something else out there? Also, to be 100% truthful, I don't know how to drive manual yet and the Porsche (whatever I get) will be manual for sure. So, basically, do I learn how to drive manual on that future car (poor clutch) or do I take lessons now (I am afraid that if I take lessons now and it takes me some time to find a car it will be a waste of time and money). Also, would u recommend doing a preventative IMS bearing change (I guess with a clutch and whatever else can be done when u remove the tranny and get all the way in there to save on the labour) on 996 or boxster when I get one? I know its an expensive job and I know the engines usualy fail when they are lower milage but still piece of mind. Thanks Thanks and forgive my noobness.

I currently have a 1988 928S4 5 speed and a 1999 986. For long trips on the highway the 928 is a much better cruiser. However in your price range it is much easier to find a clean early Boxster then a clean 5 speed 928. The 2.5 Boxsters have the better dual row ims bearing that has a very low failure rate, and the 99 and up had the suspension designed to take 18" wheels so 99 is a good year to get. The 2.5 won't win that many drag races but the Boxster chassis makes up for it in the corners. For servicing the Boxster is a bit ugly to access, the top has to be opened part way and a bunch of panels removed to get to the top of the motor. The seats have to be pulled forward and a panel behind them has to be removed to access the front of the motor. Everything else is done from underneath. My suggestion is drive a few examples and see which ones you like best.

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Thanks a lot. I have to learn how to drive manual first lol or drag my buddy everywhere. I can't freaking rent a manual car anywhere to learn on.

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Yes, they would apply as well. Regarding the early dual-row IMS, yes it was a more robust design than the small single row that followed it. It still did experience failures, but because of its design, would drop ferrous (magnetic) debris for quite a while before catastrophic failure. If you find a car with the dual row bearing, you can install an IMS Guardian as a Watch-dog for it. It's essentially a magnetic fork and when enough magnetic metallic debris is captured on the fork to connect the two tines of the fork, it triggers a warning light so you know it's time to replace the bearing before a major failure. With the Guardian installed, you could probably wait until it was time to do the clutch before replacing the bearing with the more permanent IMS Solution. With the next generation bearing, which was the same diameter as the early double-row, but a single row version (not to be confused with the larger single row used from late '05 through '08), this one would sometimes fail from start of failure to catastrophic in a very short window of time, sometimes within a single oik change so monitoring your oil filter for magnetic debris is not a good course of action for the later 996 or very early 997 motors. Dropping the oil pan during the PPI of any M96 motor (Boxster or 996) to look for plastic and metal debris outside the swirl pots areas should be considered mandatory. Plastic can either be from the chain guide rails or tensioner paddle and metal can be ferrous (bearing) or non-ferrous.

KCattorney nails it. Where to buy? PCA classifieds (they have a "PCA Quest" membership that is worth considering - maybe even try a wanted ad). I found mine on Craigslist, there's a lot of dross out there from dealers or with salvage titles but there are some good cars too. Look at the Craigslist thread on here. Place a wanted ad here, too, and on 6Speed, Pelican etc once you've decided what you want. You mention you don't currently drive a stick - if you'd be happy with a tiptronic they seem to be a little cheaper. Never had one so I can't opine on how they drive or how reliable they are. Here's just one example for you from my local CL: http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/n...626078538.html - looks like a very nice car. 1999, 71xxx miles, IMS, clutch etc all done. Not viewed it but I did correspond quite a bit with the owner and was on the verge of going to see it with an envelope of cash, until I decided I wanted a C4. Been for sale a few weeks, so could be talked down a grand or two I'm sure. TBH if you were serious I would happily go and look at this car for a fellow forum member. It looks like a good 'un.

Here's my P-car dealer shopping list. www.racperformance.com (TX) www.formanmotorsport.com (AZ) www.sloancars.com (NY) www.truspeedmotorcars.com (CA) www.willhoitenterprises.com (MO) www.formula1miami.com (FL) www.victorymotorcars.com (TX) www.nwicars.com/showroom.htm (OR) www.chicagomotorcars.com (IL) www.rpmsportscars.com www.mgmsl.com www.themiamigarage.com (FL) www.starwoodmotors.com (TX) www.premiersportscars.com (MO) www.selectluxury.com (GA) www.drivingemotions.com (FL) www.rennlist.com www.ecarlink.com (TX) www.exoticclassics.com (NY) www.pelicanparts.com www.6speedonline.com www.usimotors.com/porsche (TN) www.lakenormanimports.com (NC) www.foreigncarsitalia.com (NC) www.ardemotorcars.com (TN) www.musiccitymotorsports.com (TN) www.globalmotorsportsinc.com/web/inventory (TN) http://www.flemingsultimategarage.com/index.php (MD)

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I think I am in love . Will you teach me to drive manual so that I can take it home to NY pls on a serious note I will send you a pm. Also is there a place to do a ppi before I decide? I don't mind spending a couple of hundred bucks if you look at the car and like it. Thanks!!!!

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Thanks.

Leo - You can learn to drive a manual in a few hours. Taking off from a dead stop while pointing uphill is the only difficult part. Begin with starting from a dead stop pointed downhill. That's easy and you'll have it mastered after a couple of tries. Then, try dead stop while on level ground. That should also be relatively easy. Then, dead stop while on a very slight incline. Then, dead stop while on a bigger incline. Then, you practice taking off from a dead stop with a steep incline. To add realism, find a semi-truck to pull in right behind you and lay on the horn while you are practicing. Hint - the hand brake is your best friend when taking off from a steep incline. Also, the "alphabet soup" I was referring to earlier was the IMS bearing, the RMS, AOS, etc. No, if I purchased a $15,000 '99 996 with a dual row IMS bearing, I would not spend another $3,500 or $4,000 doing a preventative IMS bearing change along with all of the other WYAIT (while you are in there) parts. You just drive it 'til it breaks. About a 1% chance of that happening with the dual row IMS bearing.

thanks

I had a Boxster 2000 that I bought in 2008 for $10500 and just changed the oil .It was reliable and a friend of mine bought it from me for $10500 5 years later and has not put a dime on it since. I now have a 996 that I paid $ 14 900 two years ago with 128,000 miles with a remanufactured Porsche engine installed at 40,000 miles. Love the car. I had to do the AOS and that is all so far. The RMS has started a small leak and that will be the next step.Although I was told the IMS was addressed but without proof, it will be looked at that time. I will probably do it if it is established that it is the original. With a 16-year-old car, you must keep up with maintenance but a lot can be done with mechanically inclined owner,Good luck in your search.It is part of the fun

thanks. what's not part of the fun is dealing with wife lol

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Buy her one too. Once bitten herself, it makes it much easier. We have 6 cars, now 5 are Porsches, and the garages are full. Until Porsche makes a pickup, I think I'm done

I am not buying her a Porsche lol

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Now we find out the real source of her angst That 996 in McLean looks like the perfect fit here. That neighborhood is fairly posh, owners with disposable income can make great private sellers.

I guess I am lucky. My wife won't even let me contemplate the idea of selling it . If I mention it she says NO WAY!

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Good comment. CL listings for cars in affluent areas are worthy of checking out. Car Gurus is another great source.

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That's the least of the sources of her angst me wise

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This is probably one of THE best recommendations I have read on RL. I think that if a proper analysis were done, that 1-1.5% has probably already happen to all but a few 99s. There are defective bearings. Any car with even 40k miles would have failed by now. Some were probably from other factors (manufacturing tolerances, misaligned cases, etc.) those also would have happened by 40k. The only ones I think may still be out there are garage queens that sit for months or even years in old oil. This thread was the first time that I read that the dual row somehow fails more gracefully. I don't buy it. There are dual rows with 250k+ miles on them, no after-market replacement I am aware of can make that claim. If you buy a 2000-2005, if it has the small single row, they fail at a much higher rate and I've seen nothing to dispel the idea that it was a really dumb cost-driven decision that severely hurt Porsche's reputation. Of all the IMSB replacements the IMS Solution is the only one that essentially replicates the old plain bearing design used by the air-cooled generations. The downside is an external oil feed line but we did the same basic idea to our 3.0 air-cooled engines to install the 3.2 pressure-fed chain tensioners (the air-cooled 3.0 version of IMSB-impending-doom paranoia). I also think cargurus.com is a good place to look. Found both of mine through there.

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Thanks. I am on Car Gurus right now. Never heard of em before.

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Sure ya did.... Post #67 above.

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Before coming here I mean I always was a new car kinda guy.

Same here. I always swore that I would never buy a used car again. That was until I bought my 996.

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I hope no regrets

Financially, it was poor. But, I have enjoyed the car so much that I have never regretted it.

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Well maybe you will hit a jackpot in the appreciation department

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This makes sense to me, kind of. I bought a '99 with 63k miles. Indy PPI said the clutch was ready for replacement. So, I went ahead and did the IMS retrofit. Maybe unnecessary, but what the hell. You just have do decide what helps you sleep better at night. Besides whiskey and Ambien.

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Sure, agree that if you are having the clutch done anyway, then makes sense to think about the IMS bearing. I am referring to taking a '99 with a perfectly good clutch, running just fine, and spending $3,500 or $4,000 to fix a bunch of stuff that ain't broke. That doesn't make sense to me. If you have to go in to fix something that IS broken, then take a look around to see what else makes financial sense to address, which is exactly what you did.

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With a base price in the mid-high 80's, and nicely equipped 996's originally selling for $100K and more, it's hard to VASTLY overpay...I paid $30K for my '99 C4- and while that was 4 years ago and the previous owner had dumped over $20K into upgrades, it's still a whole lot more than the $18-20K people seem to be spending these days. If I could go back knowing what I know now about the car, I still would have bought it...it's been fantastically reliable and I have yet to see a 996.2, 997, or 991 that I would rather own. Sure, maybe a Turbo would have been nice from the power and "yay Mezger" perspectives, but there has not been a single day I have regretted the purchase. I hope that - even though you paid more than you might have - you can still derive some enjoyment from your 996.

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The 986 Boxster is an amazing car. Sure, it has less HP than the 996, but the driving experience is incomparable. I'll get called out for exaggeration, but the Boxster was just...sublime. I could confidently throw that car into curves at speeds I would not be comfortable with in the 996 - the neutral balance was SO hard to upset, and even when I did push the car up to and past its grip limit, it wasn't a surprise. Out of a dozen or so AX with PCA and SCCA in that car, I spun out exactly one time. Sure there were times when I slid off track or otherwise blew a corner so badly I had to get flagged back on, but that car was amazing at keeping me out of trouble. In my first or second AX, my driving instructor could not believe the car didn't have PSM or stability control - he just didn't understand how some of my overly-ambitious maneuvers didn't upset the car. Only if I was buying a car I _knew_ I wanted to turbocharge would I consider an S2000 or a Miata; I don't think the Boxster is a terrific candidate for boost. I think the Z3 was a beautiful roadster, but a Boxster in seal grey with side skirts looks even better. If you go the 986 route, buy an '03 or later. The glass window may not be a big deal for many folks, but a cloudy or cracked plastic window just looks crappy, especially on an otherwise beautiful car. While I never, ever even want to contemplate getting rid of my 996 - I truly love this car - I wish I had not sold my 986. The 911 is superior in a number of ways, but you cannot recreate the feeling of powering the top back after a long work day with a sunroof. I would gladly pay $2K more than I sold it for to get my old Boxster back - I miss it that much. Here's a photo of the one I stupidly let get away...

The Boxter S is just as powerful as the 3.4L 996.

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While I hesitate to enter into yet another 996 engine failure discussion, it's not accurate to say that problems always surface by 40k miles, even on cars that aren't garage queens.

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Totally agree. The 2003 had some very nice upgrades over the earlier ones, not least of was the glass rear window. Steering feel is even better than the 996 IMO. You do need to wind it up to find the power, but that's where the fun is! Here's a shot of mine:

Ah, so, this has turned into a "post an oblique view of your Boxster" thread. Well, okay then, here's mine.

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Speaking from the perspective of someone who DID pay a big price when my car was about 2 years old, I echo this sentiment. Of course that was before the IMS issue was widely known ( at least to me). Sure it's annoying to have the price crater on me, but I've lost money in other stupid things in my life so, no big. It's been a fun car for sure, the only knock I have is the ongoing maintenance can be annoying and the extensive use of cheap plastics at the time. So it's amusing when I read about people fishing for one below 20's. As long as the previous guy didn't use the car like rented mule, you are getting into a 911 on the cheap.

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I also hesitate and I probably should have said probably at least twice more as a further qualifier. That said, I am firstly only talking about dual rows. The single rows are junk in my opinion. Will a few more dual rows with 40k+ fail? Probably. But they would probably also fail with anything less than the solution because it will probably be something else that causes the bearing to fail. The one caveat, that applies to any 996, is that the car received appropriate maintenance in its prior life, especially oil changes. Would I suggest that someone buying a 15k car spend 4k to fix something that has a 1-1.5% chance of failing? No. In fact my business sometimes takes me to used and new car dealerships and indies, I used to drive my 99 996 to them. All but one of them said, without even looking at the car, "you need to replace the IMSB right away". Guess which one got to service my car.

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haha

Man, I don't even own a Boxster. But, if I did . . .

My 996, 40th aniv. must be an exception to the rule!

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Did you drive it to the moon and back?

Do yourself a favor and avoid Robert and Victory Motors in Houston. Search rennlist threads and proceed at your own risk. Don't know if has been mentioned but cars.com and autotrader.com are two other lead generators.

Quotes source post: 13391339

I completely agree. You can't look back. What's done is done. I paid a lot more than you for my C4S Cab just 5 yrs ago and have no regrets. The PO installed some performance goodies (short shift kit, exhaust, headers, airbox and tune) but, cosmetically, it's all OEM. Brand new, its MSRP was over $100K and it was in phenomenal mechanical and physical condition when I picked it up -- always routinely maintained by a dealer (which is good and bad). Part of me hangs on to the thought that I might still have it when 996es eventually appreciate in value but they're just too much fun to drive to waste time waiting and watching them sit and rot in a garage. Mine is my daily driver from April-ish to November-ish (last year, it was so warm I drove it into Dec/Jan). That said, I just got it professionally detailed to fix some minor damage done by a hawk last Fall and now I'm admittedly a little fearful about taking it out! It looks brand new! lol FWIW (knock-wood), other than a water pump, my maintenance has all been routine. -Eric

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didn't see it mentioned, so I will add the safety dimension. Having long time 928 and Boxster ownership history only, my personal experience only applies to those 2. If I planned to have kids in the car for commuting/shuttling, school zones are some of the most dangerous places to drive. Ask any local police officer where all the traffic calls generally lead in the morning or mid afternoon. With that in mind, consider how comfortable you would be getting hit with kids in the back. A rear ender makes me shudder with a rear engine chassis. My second 928, an '88 S4 5 spd, was a daily driver for many years. With my 8 yr old daughter one day, we were victims of a violent collision. She was in the front, we both walked away from a nastily totaled Porsche. I consider them very safe. Otherwise, take the Boxster and avoid the back seat uncertainty all together. And that '02 Boxster is all the power I need to have an exhilarating drive anyway at 2,700+ lbs., one of the great momentum sports cars of all time. For reference, '02 Boxster with 65k mi purchased in '14 for $10,700 in excellent shape. 85k mi now, around $4k in routine upkeep including a set of tires to date. After many years of Porsche ownership and many close friends with them of all types, I consider this very reasonable for maintenance costs. ymmv! Good luck!

I have a 1988 928 S4(sadly automatic-only regret) and a 2002 996 C4 Cab so from your original question on which I buckled and did both. I purchased the 928 first 3 years ago($11k), then realized I missed the 911(had a 1991 964 Targa back in mid to late 90's before kids got older and not practical). and paid $26k for the '02 C4 Cab(with a free hard top) with great previous owners that had everything done(IMS, RMS, clutch & flywheel and many others fixes) and has 60k miles on it now. Second owner and garage queened it. First owner put 46k miles on it first 7 years, second owner 8k miles 5-6 years. I've put 6k in 1 year. If you're patient you can find a good 928, but the prices are rising-making me happier but making your patience be tested. I have 123k miles but know it's more based on odometer issue and CarFax so I estimate closer to 130k but factored that into negotiations. Many more options out there for a 996 as others have pointed out. They both have yearly maintenance and some bigger ticket items 928- timing belt(and tensioner) every 45-60k electrical gremlins heater/AC issues pre 1989 odometer(non-digital) upgrade brake and fuel lines.. 996 everyone's mentioned the IMS, RMS, AOS alphabet soup as KC Attry stated. Coolant reservoir and water pump(just did these 2 weeks ago) Tires yearly if you drive it the which you should(need now) BUT, they are both really fun to drive and if you can do some maintenance on either you'll save a ton. Rennlist forums are exceptional in both cases. The 928 one has lots of part options and big time specialists that you can glean plenty of info from. BUT, budget accordingly. I could easily but 8-10K in my 928 right now and make it a 20k plus car, but I am doing it piece mail and DIY with help from friends on bigger jobs , plus my wife loves driving it too and that allows me to keep the 996 in good shape as well I can only spend so much..and I don't feel comfortable DIY on the 996-

Thanks a lot Jim no have left dreams of 928 behind. I am actively looking for a 996 Thanks

that's the more prudent move..but as others have advised, shop around and service records are huge as is PPI. Good luck in your endeavors!

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Gracias. That's the plan. If the car does not have an IMS done that's the first thing to do with a clutch most likely and deduction cel asking price. Also a thorough PPI with emphasis on items of stress. The hardest part is that KBB states the value of private sale to be $15k for a 1999 coupe with around 80k (most of what I look at) but asking prices are b/w $18-20 with some of those needing an IMS job.

What do you guys think is the price too high? http://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/cto/5600331378.html

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Link doesn't work - says the ad has expired.

Leo, how about this? https://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/cto/5630505501.html IMS done, which is a positive or a negative depending on how / where / what documentation comes with it. Has Florida tags (and the pics look to have been taken there, too).

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Wow thanks. I search craigslist every day. This didn't come up lol

This should work. 1997 Porsche Boxster $8600 http://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/cto/5649847861.html

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https://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/cto/5649847861.html

Since you don't wrench, and you need it as a DD, I suggest you find and talk with an indie mechanic first, then go shop the car. Deferred maint is typically the bane of low priced 996s. The one you found above for $15,500 on lien looks like it may be the exception. However, you need the advice of a decent local mech before writing the check. The only Boxster I would consider is the later model S with the 3.4 engine. For the price on those, you might as well go with the 996 mk1. I and most people consider the 911 to be the iconic example, and the Boxster(right or wrong) is considered the poor red-headed step child. Notwithstanding that the Boxster S with the 3.4 can hold it's own with an early 996, it also doesn't have back seats.

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Gracias. I am to PPi whatever I choose. I don't wrench I wreck

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Wow just contacted the guy with that 911 and asked him if the car is still available and he is super rude to me. Accusing me of being a scammer cause I asked him if the car is still available and if I can see it. He is a "cop" and knows scams. What a bastard.

That's probably why it's still available. Not all people were meant to be in sales.

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He apologized. I will go see it simply because of the price. Not keeping my hopes up.

Amusingly I wondered due to the Florida pics if the ad might be a scam, but a reverse image search didn't turn up anything. Hope the car is nicer than the owner. Although with these I kinda feel you're as much evaluating the latter as the former.

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Indeed it's close by and good price. I kinda have to see it. But I am not keeping hopes up.

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Maybe it was lost in translation, but I think multiple people have opined in here that a '99 996 doesn't really NEED an IMS bearing replacement. The reason being that it has the dual row IMS bearing from the factory with what is believed to be around a 1% failure rate. It is entirely possible that you could replace a perfectly good factory dual row IMS bearing with an aftermarket bearing that has a higher potential for grenading. As there is little data available for the reliability of the aftermarket replacement bearings, no one knows if they are truly more reliable than the factory bearings. Conventional wisdom says that the aftermarket bearings probably are better than the problematic single-row IMS bearings used basically in the latter half of 2000 model year through 2004. But, with the factory dual row IMS bearings found in the '99 996s having a very low failure rate, you may be doing more harm than good in replacing it with even the best of the aftermarket bearings.

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That may have been a possibility for the initial IMS replacements available, but "The IMS Solution" is not what most people think of when they think of a bearing where it has ***** or rollers inside two races. The IMS soution is two fixed metal pieces, one spinning inside the other with a pressurized oil feed supplying a continuous flow of lubricant between the two parts in which the spinning shaft rotates. This is the same design used in the air-cooled and Mezger engines that didn't have IMS failures. See information and pictures here - http://theimssolution.com/

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Petza, who says the air-cooled and Metzger engines did not have IMS failures? They certainly did. Admittedly not many, not enough even to cause worry but they did fail. Any plain bearing design is very dependent on the quality and viscosity of the lubricating system. Guess what happens if you lose pressure in the pressure feed. The IMS Solution is indeed permanent and knowing Jake's penchant for perfection, it is probably even better than the ones in the air-cooled/Metzger engines. That does not change the fact that applying the same logic to dual-row IMSBs as to small-single-row IMSBs is illogical. They are not the same and their failure rates are vastly different. 99s have accumulated some very impressive mileages without an IMSB replacement. Many of them in excess of most air-cooled cars before they were rebuilt. The air-cooled engines may not have failed from the IMSB but broken head studs or a collapsed chain tensioner or even an un-vented airbox back-fire could ruin your day just as thoroughly. So the real question is not whether or not an IMSB replacement is permanent or technically superior but rather should the new owner spend 4k (or roughly 20% of the total value of the vehicle) to replace something that will likely outlast the vehicle anyway? Don't forget that even the red-headed-stepchild-small-single-row still only has an 8% or so failure rate. Too high for comfort to be sure but it is not like they will all blow up. KC, careful too direct an application of rational thought could lead to dismissal from our ranks.

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No, I'm with you. As long as the OP can purchase a 996 with dual-row IMS bearing and is willing to gamble that amount of money on the low percentage of failure risk, I wouldn't change a dual row bearing either. What I recommended in the case of the early dual-row was to put on a fairly inexpensive IMS Guardian system that monitors the accumulation of ferrous debris in the oil and can provide a warning prior to major failure. The owner can then decide whether the car is worth spending the $3-4k on or not.

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Heh. This is exactly what I did. Nothing like a 996 to keep you second guessing yourself.

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Oh, it's the most joy I've ever had driving. Thus, handing over the money was my ticket into fantasticness. Not one regret. Plus, one could always find a better deal, the one I bought lined up perfectly with our move and red all leather interior and all. As for the Hudson valley ad, I've seen that one up while I was looking, in March/April already. Thus, unlikely to get your hopes up. Just sayin'..

What is it they say, " You can't pay too much for a Porsche. You can only buy it a little too soon"

I would drive a well sorted 86.5 -87, 928 BEFORE getting one of the cookie cutter Porsche's you are looking at. Check out the complete history of the 928 via two books, "Project 928" or Brian Long's Porsche 928. Having owned 2 911's, one 914 and a host of other marquee's I can say that my 87, 928 is by far the most gratifying, both visually and and emotionally. If you were close to me I would let you have mine for a day. It is truly a classic ride in every sense of the word. My slightly modified 72 Datsun 240Z satisfies the occasional urge to drive a small nimble "go kart" vehicle like the Boxster. Pre 89 911's are also unique in their own right, but a well sorted 928 will give you years of problem free enjoyment. They were engineered to be that way. Cookie cutter cars are a dime a dozen, and get old quick. The 928 and early 911's will always be in a class by themselves. Even if you go the other way, do yourself a favor and take a 928 on a spirited drive. My 2 cents.

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Thank you for your advise. 928 reminds me of a corvette with special looks.

Take your time and buy the "MOST" car you can afford. Do not settle. But do not get bogged down by "analysis paralysis" either. Best of luck.

Or buy the least car you can love, and spend the rest of your budget modding it frivolously. That's really fun too!

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Plus, statistics show that 95% of all 928s are still on the road. (wait for it) The other 5% made it home. (rimshot please) (couldn't resist- that's my mechanic's favorite joke) (and I still love my 928S4)

Yes, said much better than I. And, concur on the rational thought issue, assuming I don't get ostracized for perpetuating what is becoming another IMSB thread.

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Saw the car. It was ok. Much used (which isn't a bad thing necessarily). Needs a bit of cosmetic work (including a small bump in the posterior). Looked ok inside. The suspension was quite rough during the test drive (either a very stiff setup or, more likely, needs work). I am still thinking about it and looking at examples of lower milage cars (70-high 80s). Just noticed he raised the price by $2k to $17.5 (thus negating the most attractive feature of his car for me). What turned me off the most was that he has a lien and wants me to pay and keep my car in his guarage for 10!days for him to get title from Florida. I didn't address this topic since not sure about the car but no way I will pay and not get clean title and car in exchange for my cash. So yeh, car is not selling and he raises the price. Go figure.