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YOUR RESEARCH996 vs. 986 Handling
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If you know your car you can feel when the rear tires are just beginning to break away and judiciously and smoothly adjust your inputs to regain traction.
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Besides being outgunned by nearly 100HP I am running 17inch tires to their 19's.
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Well, and gassing across a finish line when they used the apex cone for the finish.
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My mechanic tells me that he has seen failures to the differentials of 996 C4's used on track.
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If you know your car you can feel when the rear tires are just beginning to break away and judiciously and smoothly adjust your inputs to regain traction.
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Suggestion
If you know your car you can feel when the rear tires are just beginning to break away and judiciously and smoothly adjust your inputs to regain traction.
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Another interesting variant of this question is if you compare Boxsters and 911s for the same money, meaning the Boxster is newer, probably a new generation.
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I am fortunate to own a 1999 996 and a 1999 986. Both these cars are superbly fun handling machines. The 996 is more my DD and the 986 spends time both on street and track. I often get asked which car handles better. My personal feeling is that a well driven 996 will slightly outperform the 986 in the corners, due to the 911's ability to oversteer at corner entry, and power through apex's with it's rear weight bias.
Let's open this up for discussion.
The 986 is a like a "gateway drug" for the 996. My guess is that more folks who own 996's have some prior experience with the Boxster's, not so much the other way around.
The 986 is more nimble - great for fun, spirited street driving. The 996 has gobs of traction powering out of the turns, making it better for the track. I do like the steering feel better on the 986. Love them both!
IMHO, I find my 986 S is simply more fun to drive.
Although it is nice having an extra 60 HP in my 996
I find that I crawl up the butt of a 911 in front of me in the corners/curves, but they pull away on the straights.
While the older lawn mower engine 911's do have a lots of oversteer when driven aggressively, the newer ones are much better behaved and have less tail swing. A 986 is simply a better handling car.
If you put an extra 60 HP in a 986 S, it will blow the doors off of a 996
I have a 996 and a 981CS - and it's a tough call. For a less experienced driver, its the 981 all the way, but as I really learn to drive the 996, I can get around faster in it. The 981 is a really good car... but it needs a LOT of work to make it a great car. On a big, fast track I find I can toss the 996 around...back it into corners in a way the 981 can't .
986 is hands down the better handling car. The 996 just can't compare. What the 996 lacks in finesse, however, it makes up for in brute force. As soon as it can stretch its legs, the 996 takes over.
Each has its own pluses and minuses though and I think Cuda hit the nail on the head. 986 for tight nimble driving where precision is king and the 996 for the more traditional GT driving.
I continue to carry a grudge against Porsche that they hamstring the Boxster/Cayman platform by under powering it compared to the 911. The GT4 shows how awesome that platform is with the 911 motor and how badly people want it. Bastards are just milking their customers
They HAVE to hobble it. Now, how would you feel about being passed in your 996/997/991 by some giggling hairdresser in a Boxster, and all you can do is give him a one-finger salute that he sees in his rear view mirror as you fade into the distance.
Gnat, I have to disagree. The 986 is a great car, definitely not hands down better handling and the 996 is not just about brut force. I have always felt that with a touch of trail braking or lift I can get the 996 to rotate quicker into a corner, and then get on the gas sooner through an apex. For me there is a greater sense of predictably with a 911 at speed. With a 986 you get tons of feedback and you can throttle steer right through any corner but I don't find I can get on the gas as early or as hard mid-corner as I can with my 911.
The guy that runs the race shop at the local track said the 911 is a bad design that they have engineered to perfection. I think there is a lot of truth to that.
Your comments about getting on the gas sooner vs later mean absolutely nothing when comparing two different cars. Any person that spends any real time on a track knows unequivocally that lap times, are what matters in the end. Seat of the pants feeling is just that a feeling and often times doesn't translate into real world lap times. Even driving two of the exact same model cars can give you different feelings.
I think we have a few of those in this thread
The Boxster/Cayman platform is the better handler. It's a basic function of being mid engine vs rear/front engine. That allows the car to pivot on it's mass rather than have to move it. The 911 just can't turn as precisely.
The 911 does better on a road coarse because that is what it was designed for, but that isn't the best measure of the better handling car. While the 911 has always contended with and beaten much more powerful competition by winning the race in the corners, that wasn't forgotten when they designed the 986 (or 955 even!). So ultimately where the 911 gets ahead of the Boxster/Cayman on a road course is with the amount of power it can apply ("brute" was relative to it's sibling).
You put the cars on a well designed AutoX course and you remove the power factor and focus purely on handling. This is where the Boxster/Cayman shines and I've watched too many stock 986s kick the crap out of 991s and purpose built air cooled cars to even toy with the idea that it was a fluke.
None of that is a knock on the 996 or any 911. They were just built to do different things and they both do those things very well. You want an incredibly handling car for something like an AutoX, get a Boxster or Cayman. You want a well rounded GT car, get a 911.
m3 driver, actually, I have spent quite some time on track. What determines quicker lap times is more a function of how fast you can get through a corner than using hp to make up the difference in a straight. Getting on the gas mid-corner and powering through as no car like a 911 can do, directly influences your corner speeds and consequently your lap times. Both cars are brilliant in their own way, but the Boxster just cannot manage the level of G force generated by a 911. Try it and the Boxster will spin.
I suspect that 100% of street drivers and almost 100% of the weekend track warriors can't actually tell the difference of what handles better. It's like saying "do you like blondes or redheads better"? Everyone knows blondes are better.
-td
Very good point, both these cars have incredible levels of performance. It would probably take a pro race driver to discern any appreciable differences. This is a good debate though and always seems to be an interesting topic of conversation track side. thanks to everyone for their feedback.
I've already chimed in on two or three other "extoll the virtues of the 986" threads, so I'll go easy here, but... this quote is simply not accurate in the context of the 986 vs...well, just about anything else. I'm not saying this to be argumentative, so please don't think I'm just trolling. The 986 genuinely is an amazing car to drive.
My 986 is the most forgiving car I've ever driven. No other car I've had was so willing to take the most poorly executed corner and still deliver me out the far side intact and pointed in the right direction.
My very-first-ever autocross was in my '03 986, and I admit that I was driving...exuberantly. The instructor was awesomely patient as he tried to explain that being smooth was almost always better than just stuffing the accelerator into the floor and going for broke at every turn.
Anyway, at the end of our first full-speed run of 4 or 5 laps, I see him eyeballing the dash, so I ask what's up. He's looking for the PSM switch so he can have me run the next session with no driver aids (his car is a 70's/80's 911)... his mind is truly blown when I convince him that other than ABS, my 986 didn't have any driver aids (no PSM/PASM/other three-letter acronyms). He couldn't believe that the car was just soaking up my inputs and in every instance the 986 got us around the track intact.
After a year or two and SDR's 3-day performance driving school, I actually thought I was a pretty good driver. A few years later when I sold the 986 and got my 996, I learned from my 996 that I wasn't nearly as smooth as I thought I was. Inputs that the 986 would have just dealt with were amplified by the 911's configuration, and I had to relearn everything about being smooth, rolling onto the throttle, and ESPECIALLY avoiding braking just prior to any other maneuver.
Even on the street at legal speeds, I could appreciate the 986's qualities - on onramps and offramps, and especially on winding roads, the 986 was consistently reliable and solid.
For those of us that are not expert drivers and even some who pose as such, suggest you search "996 snap+oversteer" or lift+off oversteer.
The 996 is much better than earlier Porsche cars but in a panic situation it would be easy to make a bad situation far worse.Boxster is more forgiving.
Bottom line is with equal HP, the 986 will run circles around a 996 in any situation.
A 996 with 258 HP that a 986 S has would be a complete dog
a 986 with 320 HP would be a monster!
I have both a 986 S and a 996 and am familiar with the characteristics of both
Fixed it.
Personally, I don't think the boxster is faster, more forgiving, or better than the 996 (in any way). Mine has about the same HP/weight ratio, and it's definitely not faster or easier to drive...
Apples to Oranges? (Targa Tip ≠Boxster S 6-speed)
-td
It is fairly hard to get a C4 to snap oversteer, hard but not as hard with a C2. Porsche stomped a great deal of the "snap" out of "snap oversteer" with the 996 cars; you can still get the car rotating, and of course given the engine location there is a lot of mass to try to stop once the rotation starts, but the 996, 997, and 991 are
much
less prone to what used to be the 911's signature feature...the 986 is even less so.
A bunch of additional opinion that is in no way supported by empirical evidence:
"more forgiving" and "faster" seldom exist simultaneously...a good driver doesn't need a forgiving car. When driven skillfully, a 986 Boxster can turn in some very competitive lap times against other Porsches. In my experience, the Boxster can make one feel more skilled as a driver than he actually is. Into the corner too fast? It understeers, scrubbing off speed at the expense of front tire tread, then catches and you make it around the corner. Give it too much gas tracking out, and the lack of an LSD allows the inside wheel to bleed off excess power, keeping the car pointed down track. The 986 isn't any easier than the 996 to drive WELL, but less experienced drivers will feel more confident in a 986.
That's a good point. My C2 is the first car I've had that when it wants to spin, I can rarely save it. Like once out of 6 tries. I've gotten to where I just push both feet in and let it go. It hasn't been a big deal on the track but I think in an emergency maneuvering situation it would definitely be an issue. There is a reason they called the early turbos "Doctor killers."
If it starts to spin, mash the gas! You'll start saving it 5 out of 6 times.
...Really
Seems really unnatural in a hairy situation - but if you train yourself to gas it, you'll save your bacon more times than not.
I guess I've not gone past that threshold yet. Even on the track I find the 996 very stable and thought it would take a pretty abrupt maneuver to get it to spin. I know it can happen but I've not had it do anything more than just "wag its tail" on me.
Granted it did take a little while for me to become confident in the car just because its reputation leads you to believe it will spin on any corner. But once I learned to not do what my instincts tell me to do and instead what the car needs me to do then it's been a different story.
I haven't pushed an older 911 far enough to find out (fear of it's reputation and not being mine if I wreck it), but I gather that is the key difference.
In the old 911s that wag was the sign that things were about to get real hairy so you better hang on. In the 996 its more of a "you may not want to continue doing that" warning. Even the C4 will spin if you keep pushing it, but all the 996s are much more forgiving than the older cars.
This is also something that I gather is much different in the water cooled cars. They actually tell you that they are going to kill you rather than surprising you with it
I'll start mentally practicing that and hopefully can make it an instinct. I have the confidence to hold throttle even if I feel like I'm carrying too much speed through the corner. The last couple of spins have been random mental lapses in braking situations through multi turn sections. Well, and gassing across a finish line when they used the apex cone for the finish. But I got a time, Lol.
The most difficult instinct to overcome with a 911 is the urge to lift as you start to feel the back end breaking away partway through a corner. Maintaining throttle - or feeding it more throttle - does not feel natural in a car that is threatening to give up in the rear end.
I find that my car does not respond well to large throttle inputs - mash the gas too hard and the front will lift a little; when you get back off the gas, the fronts can catch and toss you even more violently into a spin. Trying to write out how to drive someone else's car at the limit of grip is a fool's errand, though - practice is the only thing that works. It is awfully nice to have someone who can explain the stuff that just doesn't seem to make sense when you first start driving a 911, like lift-off oversteer.
The strangeness is even more evident when you're used to driving an American sports car...the weight distribution in my ancient '96 Corvette is 51/49, and typically the ONLY reason the rear end lets go is because you're overpowering the tires. Let up on the gas, and it will pop back on track. If I do the same thing in the same corner in the 996, the track ahead will suddenly appear in the side window...then the rear-view mirror...then the other side window...and again through the windshield.
Whenever I drive the 911, I'm ruining my 'Vette driving skills; same thing when I'm driving the Corvette for my 911 skills.
This is a good problem to have.
Yep, those momentary mental lapses can be killer. Once, I came around an apex and fed in the gas heavy for a straight. Suddenly I remembered that there was a small jog in the track ahead, so I needed to be further left to set up for it. Whilst pondering this, the mental lapse cause me to lift. A very lovely pirouette resulted.
Disclaimer: Very little experience with the Boxster/Cayman platform. Only a few laps and a few Boxster S/Cayman S/Cayman Rs I see pretty often at the track (all with similar amount of work as my 996 with suspension, brakes, and R Comps).
Where most believe they would be gaining time in the technical sections is where I've passed many. The straights are not as 911 biased as you would think - (exit speed/weight/hp)
In a vacuum, if all things were equal (from the factory) and the cars were bone stock with the same driver behind the wheel; The line is the line and I don't think you'd see much variation in times - Both cars will handle admirably however the 911 would still be faster even on shorter tracks.
I do believe you can learn a lot more quickly from the 98X platform than the 911.
Think of it like skiing or snowboarding. To me:
Skiing = 911
Snowboarding = Boxster/Cayman
You can pick up snowboarding after a day or two and be competent enough to get down most hills. You might not be the fastest but you've got the basics managed. The basics of skiing take much longer to be able to manage on any hill, even to just get going and years more to get the most out of it.
Maybe its just me but its taken me 14 track events this year with lots of professional instruction to finally feel like I'm doing anything significant in my 911.
While I have both a 996 and 986, I have never tracked them. All my track times have been in Mini Coopers and various Lemons and Chump cars. That said, on mountain roads I think the 986 is hands down better handling. I wish I enjoyed looking at it as much as the 996 then I would be able to have just one sports car.
On a side note, I used to do a lot o PCA event with my Mini. 911 guys could not stand to give me a point by, My friends and I actually kept a tally of how many spins occurred in front of me because they pushed it too hard in the corner, lifted, I get past with out a point!
The consensus here is that the 986 is a better handling car than the 996. This discussion also led to some passionate opinions and claims made by some that others were poor drivers or in my case "in need of more track time". A few years ago Car and Driver did skid pad testing was done between a 2011 Cayman R and a 2010 GT3. The tests were done to measure G forces and grip as it related to the handling of both cars. The power differential between these cars would have no influence on the outcomes of these tests.
At the limits of traction the findings were conclusive, the GT3 was the superior handling car. These results are the result of a pro driver driving both cars to the limit.
Another similar review was done at the same time between a 2011 Boxster Spyder and GT3 RS written up in Excellence. Again the pro driver found the GT3 to be the superior handler while the non pro greatly enjoyed the dynamics and feedback of the Boxster.
Having driven all those cars I am inclined to agree with the results that ultimately in the right hands the rear engine car will produce a better result in a corner at the limit. For the rest of us mere mortals we can enjoy either car and have years of fun exploring those limits.
you can't compare a GT3 with all of its nannies and active suspension to a car that does not have that
A comparison between C2 and a Cayman S or Boxster S would be better.The reason I say S as it narrows the HP difference
Or a testing between a 991 GT3 and 981 GT4. I would bet the GT4 would outperform the GT3
I'm shocked that a test of the pinnacles of Porsche's track ready cars are found to out perform lesser cars! shocked I tell you!! Shocked!
Discussing that test and the results has zero bearing on the discussion at hand of Boxsters/Caymans against the matching (same performance options) 911.
If you put a normal 911 in those tests against the GT3 I'm sure you'd be shocked to find that the GT3 still comes out on top.
The Cayman R and Boxster Spyder are nothing to pan, but they are tarted up versions of the base car. The GT3 is a substantially different car than the base 911 (different motor design, different suspension, different breaks, different chassis in some cases, etc...).
Jay
The GT3, which I have owned and tracked does not have much in the way of Nannies. Both the Cayman R and the GT3 of the 987/997 generation were basically high performance/track based versions. What ever minimal nannies either car has would need to be defeated by the pro to achieve the best handling result. But of course you knew that as you have superior driving skills.
As far as HP differences that is a moot point, when cornering at the limit or testing on the skid pad, the higher HP engine does not provide any advantage. As a matter of fact it may be a liability.
Both cars are amazing, the 911 is king.
I have been avoiding this thread because I find it a little silly. The Boxster/Cayman and 911 are entirely different cars. What value is there in comparing apples to oranges? That said I feel the need to defend the 911.
The Boxster/Cayman is mid-engined as such it has very neutral handling. It is great for the inexperienced driver and pro. It is very forgiving of small mistakes and follows the line very predictably. On today's freeways that we call racetracks, they are great cars they are also great on the road. But.. they are not faster than a 911 even with equal power in the hands of a driver experienced in driving a 911. A 911 can simply do things no car other than a rear-wheel drive rear-engined car can do. There is a reason that until the advent of effective AWD systems most of the successful rally cars were rwd/re cars. Most rallies were really a series of controlled drifts punctuated with short bursts of straight line driving.
The 911 does not have snap-oversteer. It is very unforgiving if you don't learn to control the limits of adhesion but every generation is more forgiving. If you know your car you can feel when the rear tires are just beginning to break away and judiciously and smoothly adjust your inputs to regain traction. If you can't feel when the rear end loses traction, well that really isn't the car's fault is it? Once the rear end is sufficiently out of line you are going out backwards. The car tried to tell you, you just didn't listen. Here is where the 911 stands above the others, you can induce the slippage to make a line that apexes much later since are using the slippage to turn in at an angle beyond the normal limits of your steering geometry and then rapidly increase your pedal input until you feel it snap back into adhesion. You can make turns on a narrow road in a 911 that you could never take at the same speed in any lesser car. You never mash the gas, 911s expect and respond favorably to balanced inputs.
Also if you think a 911 can spin, one of the downsides of a mid-engined car is that if you really drive at eleven tenths of your ability, when it spins, it spins like a top. A central pivot point with low outboard weight is the exact same design as a child's toy top and it reacts the same way.
Tharbin thank you for your well worded reply. I agree with many of your points and applaud your ability to express yourself so clearly.
I do not believe this is a silly thread because it seems to be a big topic of discussion amongst Porsche folks. Whether we like it or not, the merits of the Boxster Vs 911 has been debated since the introduction of the Boxster in 1997 and the debate will probably continue long into the future.
What I have found silly is that certain individuals on this thread have resorted to personal attacks of others driving abilities, to justify their opinions. That approach is childish and unnecessary on this forum.
We all have varying degrees of skill sets and abilities when it comes to driving. We enjoy this forum because we are ultimately expressing and sharing our experiences with automobiles we all cherish. From the experience of a seasoned driver to the discovery process of a novice, all these topics have tremendous value to us all.
Kurt,
I did not find the thread silly either, at first. It is actually a good discussion to help a potential Porsche owner to make an informed decision. When we get into which car is faster without regards to driver ability or venue, it gets silly.
So to add fuel, which do you think would do better on a short dirt track oval?
I know they used to outfit older 911 's for dirt tracks and rally use. Personally no experience on dirt ovals. From other off-roading experience, dirt bikes, ATV's, etc., I would question the ground clearance of these modern cars. They seem to be built for road use exclusively.
From a hypothetical stand point, I know what it feels like to exceed traction limits and spin a Boxster on track, so on a surface like dirt I would be overly cautious. Your thoughts?
From a ground clearance perspective they are both horrible but theoretically, a mid-engine design is the worst possible arrangement for a dirt track oval.
It occurs to me that 5ch3ll made a very good observation earlier. If this thread is really a thread to talk about the handling characteristics then we really should separate the 996 C2 and the 996 C4. They are very different. The C2 is like a somewhat tamer late-air-cooled 911 whereas the C4 is, well it is a little hard to explain. You know it is in there, you just know it is a 911 but you have drive very stupid to get it to break free and I'm not sure what it would do. I haven't had occasion to try to kill myself with it since I got it.
If you are referring to my teasing of Cuda and 5ch3ll, well they are both friends of of mine and I was not being serious, then again, I do consistently Cuda at AX and the track
^^ I, for one, was HIGHLY insulted, defamed, disparaged, denigrated, maligned, libeled, slandered, and calumniated. This is despicable, atrocious, outrageous, contemptible, abominable, and reprehensible,
You can expect a stern letter from my attorney shortly, as soon as he sobers up.
Let's see.... 0.3 seconds faster with 58 more HP. OK, yeah, you win.
P.S., How exactly do you "Cuda" at the track?
I haven't noticed you doing it.
I will pay more attention next time.
So you west coasters were just busting, my apologies. Happy to hear you guys have that level of camaraderie.
C2 Vs. C4 another interesting discussion. My mechanic tells me that he has seen failures to the differentials of 996 C4's used on track. The newer cars with electronic AWD may be different. Your thoughts?
it was the new fingers that I just had attached. It was supposed to say " I do consistently
beat
Cuda at AX and the track.
A win is a win and besides you had those RE-71 cheater tires. I just had Direzza Star Specs
Got any video of track times to back up that statement? I mean it seems completely off topic and irrelevant to a comparison of arguably two of the top handling cars of all time. But it would be interesting to see if your claim had any merit.
Another interesting variant of this question is if you compare Boxsters and 911s for the same money, meaning the Boxster is newer, probably a new generation. Now it gets quite complicated.
Or you put the price difference into a refreshed and improved suspension and a budget for always-fresh tires and light wheels.
I wouldn't track mine but I didn't buy this car to track.
I know there are several RLers that track their C4Ss and I don't remember them saying they removed the front diff.
I think the 987S vs 996 question is a very interesting one, regardless of track times. There's a lot of overlap there in terms of pricing, especially for Boxsters. With roughly equal power, I just can't imagine a 996 being consistently faster.
I agree, a 987 generation Boxster/Cayman S vs a 996 would be close. Engine, tire size, suspension components would make this very interesting. On track with my 986 I need to try extra hard to keep up with the 987's circulating. Besides being outgunned by nearly 100HP I am running 17inch tires to their 19's.
In a supersized world there still might be something to be said about doing more with less.
I drove both (08 Cayman & 03 996) and prefer the larger area in the 911. At the onset I fully expected to end up with a Cayman, but a highway cruise in the 911 cured me of those thoughts
.
I think this describes much of the day-to-day difference between the 996 and 986/987.
I prefer the 987s that I've ended up with over the 996 I used to own because they feel more nimble, intimate, and plain fun to drive.
But I do miss the 996 whenever I take a long trip, both for the smoother, more quiet ride and the room.
I also miss the way the rear end dug in when powering out of a curve. It is almost addictive because it is a dynamic that is not typical for a car.
Another way to describe the difference is that the 996 would surprise me at how athletically it would perform when flogged hard. In normal driving the 996 seems competent but a bit docile, however in an instant it can start shredding corners and wailing through gears while still maintaining a sort of composure. It impresses when driven hard.
The 987s seem to be more raw and ready to throw around right out-of-the-box and transitioning to sportier driving seems more in character. As many have alluded to, it is easy to drive fast and accurately, and the way the car responds soon becomes intuitive and confidence builds quickly.
I've driven neither to 9 or 10 tenths more than a time or three (on a track) so I cannot really speak to which one is ultimately quicker, and it would definitely depend upon the driver.
Oh, and one Porsche is definitely not enough......ask the man who owns one.
Didn't they already make a 6-cylinder Boxster? I think it was just called the Boxster.
Perhaps they will make a new, rear-engined version of the 911 next.
