Best Way to Spend £25k on a 911 - Page 4 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

I've managed to save my pennies to finally get a 911 (or will have by August). The budget is £25k but reading about all the risks associated with 996 and 997 ownership, in order to enjoy ownership and not spend all of my time worrying about when it'll go *boom*, I reckon I have a few options. 1 - Buy a 996 C4S for £15k and keep the £10k just in case an engine rebuild or other expensive problems. 2 - Buy a 997 C2 for £20k and hope a 997 is more reliable car with £5k for repairs. 3 - Buy a 997.2 C2 for £25k and hope it's as reliable as its claimed to be. 4 - Buy a 996 Turbo for £25k - the engine is the most reliable. 5 - Save another £5k and buy a 997 from an OPC 6 - Step away from the 911, you're obviously not going to be happy with one - buy something else (like a Cayman S). All options (except 5) include a comprehensive inspection including bore inspection. What do you reckon is my best approach? Thanks in advance Edited by Seeker UK on Friday 13th June 00:57

Buy a quality Boxster or Cayman, depending on your view of open top or tin top motoring, and enjoy 9/10th's of the pleasure for half the price.

I think your pricing is based on the bottom of the barrel cars..1 and 3 anyway so engine issues are only 1 of the costs you have to consider. Suspension brakes rads etc can all mount up if you buy cheap uncared for examples. Hopefully you have an income stream to provide ongoing maintenance if so buy what you want and take time to buy the best not the cheapest. If its really maintenance costs that scare you buy a gen2 987 non S. Still a good car.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2013... ....or if your can find a N/A 996 with a hartech rebuild

996T is the answer! I had a similar dilemma 4 years ago but once I drove the turbo, wow. All are nice cars but the turbo just feels special. I owned a 986S prior to this and kept it for my normal 2ish years, 4 years on I've still got the 996t and cant think of anything I'd replace it with this side of 40k I know I'd of moved any other car on my now. Get the best you can afford, you'll love it

I'd love to hear the opinions on this, too. I'd be happy enough with a 996 C2 or C4, but when you consider the potential engines problems, a 996 turbo starts to make a lot of sense! But then you are into 997 money and they are also appealing but you still worry about the engine. Best be sensible and get a 996 turbo .

I'd be buying an early, low teen c2 manual or a c4s. If it doesn't go boom, you're quids in and you can drive it like you stole it and enjoy the ownership experience.

Given your options it has to be a 996 turbo. Bargain of the decade those things.

Just bought a 996 turbo and as mentioned here its a performance bargain and looks awesome (from the rear!) Think once people cotton on about these cars, clean ones will start to rise in price.

996T, you'll need a bit moer budget for maintenance though as they are not cheap to keep in fine fettle. I had tracking done which cost the best part of £600 all told, but was a money well spent. I upgraded my brakes (£1500), then matching rears (£400), new 02 sensor (£150), Service.. and fuel did i mention petrol consumption! i mean it can get 28mpg if you drive it like Miss Daisy, but then whats the point of having it! Try to buy one with an exhaust and remap already done - it will save you money in the long run - they are both mods worth having and expensive if undertaking from scratch - a nice sounding exhaust is better than the dyson esque noise they come with.

You cant get a 997.2 C2 for 25k. Maybe 35k.

I'd go drive a few and decide which you like. That may focus you to buy or save. If it was me on your current budget I'd go for a manual facelift 996 C2 coupe. If you want reliability save an extra £5 and go for a manual 996 turbo coupe.

Something like this for £15.5k with 66k miles looks nice. http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

mollytherocker said: You cant get a 997.2 C2 for 25k. Maybe 35k. OK, I'll scrub that one. Thanks.

g7jhp said: Something like this for £15.5k with 66k miles looks nice. Looks over priced to me.

R26Andy said: g7jhp said: Something like this for £15.5k with 66k miles looks nice. Looks over priced to me. Possibly, I was really highlighting the car and would expect the buyer to negotiate on the asking price.

7. Buy a higher miles 993 for 25k

8. Buy a higher mileage 964 for £25k.

9. Buy a higher mile 3.2 Carrera for £25k.

Thank you all for your comments / suggestions. First of all the suggestions of a pre-996 model. I like the idea of a 964 or 993 but they're not a good solution for me. 25k is top budget so the car has to be a daily driver - a £15k car can be a weekend toy with £3-4k going on a cheap hack and the rest sitting for repairs. Boxster? I don't want a convertable. That leaves the Cayman which I need to drive. As for the 996/997, my preference is for the 997, the interior is nicer and the seats are much better for my bad back. So one more question for you all - is £20k a reasonable price for a good, well maintained, 997 C2?

Seeker UK said: Thank you all for your comments / suggestions. First of all the suggestions of a pre-996 model. I like the idea of a 964 or 993 but they're not a good solution for me. 25k is top budget so the car has to be a daily driver - a £15k car can be a weekend toy with £3-4k going on a cheap hack and the rest sitting for repairs. Boxster? I don't want a convertable. That leaves the Cayman which I need to drive. As for the 996/997, my preference is for the 997, the interior is nicer and the seats are much better for my bad back. So one more question for you all - is £20k a reasonable price for a good, well maintained, 997 C2? 20k is bottom of the pile for a 997. It can be done but care and skill is needed. As with any Porsche, 25k is a better budget but the same due diligence is required!

You'll like the Cayman, dynamically better and faster than the 996. And you'll like the interior. Gen 2S are just starting to creep into your budget, you might even squeeze a OPC warranty

Bit late to the party, but as a current 993 owner and previous 996 owner, my thoughts: 1) high miles 964/993 if you enjoy older cars as well as new. I run a 119k mile 993 as a daily driver, and it's no problem. It's not as easy as say a modern car, but certainly no chore. You might find it difficult to find one in good condition, but with a bit of luck and patience you should be able to pick one up with spare cash for servicing. Added bonus is that they're appreciating a bit 2) 996 C4S. Great usable car, very good looking. Would def spend the money and take it to Centre Gravity for a set up (applies to 993 as well btw), worth it's weight in gold and will transform the car. Would also seriously consider having the prop shaft etc removed to disconnect the front wheels from the drive. It really doesn't need 4wd (especially after a CG setup) and you'll save a bit of weight Oh, for either, also leave cash for a Carnewal exchange exhaust (£400), both the 993 and 996 ones (RSR and GT respectively) sound amazing. As a value for money proposition you really can't beat them.

Why would you buy a C4S and then disconnect the 4WD? Just buy a C2 and save more then 5K and even more weight! You could spend the 5 k saved on improvements like better suspension etc...

Buy a nice 996 C4S and drive the thing as much as you can, you'll also have some cash put aside for any engine issues you may or may not have. I've done 10,000 miles in my C4S over the past 16 months and it has run like clockwork. Some cars have issues, most don't, the consensus is about 5% may have issues. This means they are cheap to buy, as many are scared off by the risks. Buying any high end car second hand comes with risks, the good news is that there are plenty of quality specialists to keep your 996 in fine fettle. Your budget will buy you a really good C4S,a much nicer car than a 997 C2.Happy hunting.

Shurv said: Buy a nice 996 C4S and drive the thing as much as you can, you'll also have some cash put aside for any engine issues you may or may not have. I've done 10,000 miles in my C4S over the past 16 months and it has run like clockwork. Some cars have issues, most don't, the consensus is about 5% may have issues. This means they are cheap to buy, as many are scared off by the risks. Buying any high end car second hand comes with risks, the good news is that there are plenty of quality specialists to keep your 996 in fine fettle. Your budget will buy you a really good C4S,a much nicer car than a 997 C2.Happy hunting. In what way do you think a 996C4S is a much nicer car then the 997 C2?

If its a true daily driver - I would recommend a 997. You should find a decent one for 25k and put it on a Hartech Gold maintenance plan for peace of mind.

20k for the best condition/spec manual C4S with PSE and put the rest in an instant access ISA...

I'd say 997 if at all possible. Have it checked for bore scoring etc. the engine failure rates are still rare. It's easy to get freaked out by reading forums as all the people who have failures congregate to talk about them. You don't often get threads about all the people who haven't had these issues. I've owned two Boxsters and a 2005 997 3.8s all of which 'could' have had failures but didn't. As others have said, get it checked out properly PPI from Porsche, bore score check, etc. get a plan from a place like Hartech or Revolution Porsche in Brighouse, and enjoy it. Buy the best car you can afford. The idea of buying a car for 15k and holding back ten grand 'in case' sounds crazy to me. You can get a much nicer/newer car if you use your budget available. Expect to pay around £2k a year for maintenance, including servicing, parts and your warranty plan you take out. Remember also a 997 only requires servicing every two years whereas a 996 needs it every year. PS Cayman could be a real alternative. Edited by Isysman on Sunday 15th June 13:39

mollytherocker said: Why would you buy a C4S and then disconnect the 4WD? Purely for looks, as I think they're beautiful.... I'm quite shallow! Plus IME C4Ss are rather over tyred given their power/torque, I'd want as much drive going through the rears as possible. Edited by Mario149 on Sunday 15th June 16:08

mollytherocker said: In what way do you think a 996C4S is a much nicer car then the 997 C2? Do you think a 993 is a nicer car than a 996? It's personal preference.

In my opinion, the 993 feels its age to drive. However, probably the best looking 911 in my eyes. Surely you can't get a manual one for £25k still though? I agree that the 996 C4S is a looker too, and also has 'the noise' over the Turbo. Not sure i'd want the engine issue hanging over my head, but then i'm a bit risk adverse. I'd try and drive any 996 against the Turbo. It's whether you prefer to compromise on noise or power... the Turbo sounds dull, and the C4S goes like a sloth, depending on which you drive first!

Hungrymc said: mollytherocker said: In what way do you think a 996C4S is a much nicer car then the 997 C2? Do you think a 993 is a nicer car than a 996? It's personal preference. I realise its personal preference, I just wondered why. Don't, worry, you don't have to tell me if you don't want to!

hondansx said: In my opinion, the 993 feels its age to drive. I'm curious, what exactly do you mean by that? If you mean interior feel etc, I agree. But ref driving, yes the pedals are offset and the clutch is a bit heavy on mine, but other than that, my 993 feels as good on the road at 8/10ths as my old 996 did and my mate's current one does+++. You have to work the engine more but to me it actually feels a bit more sporty because, while there's plenty torque low down for regular progress, you have to rev it to get the best. On track it's a bit more of a handful as you don't have any sort of electronic safety net, but that's not an everyday situation. +++= with the standard suspension on. I've now got PSS10s and it blows the 996s into the weeds

If you like the 4S this one will be up for sale next month...............top spec/history and lovely condition looks like this: sounds like this (switchable PSE): http://youtu.be/pWwt0vmRCk0 PM me if you want details

6C4GTS said: If you like the 4S this one will be up for sale next month...............top spec/history and lovely condition looks like this: sounds like this (switchable PSE): http://youtu.be/pWwt0vmRCk0 PM me if you want details Tempting... What are you getting to replace it?

mollytherocker said: I realise its personal preference, I just wondered why. Don't, worry, you don't have to tell me if you don't want to! Thank you, was incredibly worried.

Seeker UK said: 6C4GTS said: If you like the 4S this one will be up for sale next month...............top spec/history and lovely condition looks like this: sounds like this (switchable PSE): http://youtu.be/pWwt0vmRCk0 PM me if you want details Tempting... What are you getting to replace it? I really don't know....it's my weekend and trip car so technically I don't NEED to replace it immediately. The issue is that if you want a better looking better sounding faster car there is not much around under 50K. Regarding 996 seats and 997 seats apart from my impression that the leather used on the 997 is a bit thinner the comfort is comparable. I've just done 3200 miles in a week in mine around Europe and was fresh at the end of each day. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... If you have a bad back I hear heated seats are an advantage

6C4GTS said: I really don't know....it's my weekend and trip car so technically I don't NEED to replace it immediately. The issue is that if you want a better looking better sounding faster car there is not much around under 50K. Regarding 996 seats and 997 seats apart from my impression that the leather used on the 997 is a bit thinner the comfort is comparable. I've just done 3200 miles in a week in mine around Europe and was fresh at the end of each day. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... If you have a bad back I hear heated seats are an advantage I've owned a C4S for 4 years now, I used to change my cars all the time and feel I should be changing. But I'm struggling for ideas that are significantly more appealing, thinking 997 turbo or Aston DB9 (has to be 2+2) but I'm not totally convinced they'll be that much more rewarding as an overall package.

Hi Molly, I just prefer the 996 shape to the 997. I feel the 997 is trying too hard to look like a 993, just to keep the beardies happy. The 996 C4S is so much nicer to look at than the 997 ,especially the 997 C4S. It's all my own opinion though, so don't expect anyone else to agree.

Shurv said: Hi Molly, I just prefer the 996 shape to the 997. I feel the 997 is trying too hard to look like a 993, just to keep the beardies happy. The 996 C4S is so much nicer to look at than the 997 ,especially the 997 C4S. It's all my own opinion though, so don't expect anyone else to agree. Hi Thats totally fair enough, I know many people share that view. Porsche certainly went retro with the 997 and I am afraid I am one of the beardies you mention! For what its worth, I agree to a certain extent, in fact the 996C4S is better looking that the 996GT3. There, I said it! But, 4 wheel drive does not belong on a road going 911 in my view, as controversial as that may be. However, I love the simple lines of the standard 997 Carrera. I cant deny that I prefer the 993 esque shape, but as you say its purely a matter of personal opinion! With 51 years of 1000's of 911 models, the great thing is that we can continue to argue over this s t for years to come!

Shurv said: Buy a nice 996 C4S and drive the thing as much as you can, you'll also have some cash put aside for any engine issues you may or may not have. I've done 10,000 miles in my C4S over the past 16 months and it has run like clockwork. Some cars have issues, most don't, the consensus is about 5% may have issues. This means they are cheap to buy, as many are scared off by the risks. Buying any high end car second hand comes with risks, the good news is that there are plenty of quality specialists to keep your 996 in fine fettle. Your budget will buy you a really good C4S,a much nicer car than a 997 C2.Happy hunting. Sorry would not swop your much nicer car for mine , I must be mad

alfa phil said: Sorry would not swop your much nicer car for mine , I must be mad I'm sure many people would agree with you. But that's the point with 911s, air cooled / water cooled, 2wd / 4wd, tip / man, modern / retro.... There is a 911 for everyone and it's pointless trying to 'judge' other people's preference. I think 996 generation have a more old fashioned mechanical feel to the more developed 997 (but a 993 is a step too far for me in that direction, however you'll hear 993 fans use this very reason for preferring them.... Which is fine) I'm a car enthusiast and all 911s are interesting cars. When people ask advice, all we can do is explain our preferences but I do wish people would do it without criticising each other's taste. Your 997 looks very nice by the way! I'm sure MTRs 993 is as well.

alfa phil said: Sorry would not swop your much nicer car for mine , I must be mad I'm sure many people would agree with you. But that's the point with 911s, air cooled / water cooled, 2wd / 4wd, tip / man, modern / retro.... There is a 911 for everyone and it's pointless trying to 'judge' other people's preference. I think 996 generation have a more old fashioned mechanical feel to the more developed 997 (but a 993 is a step too far for me in that direction, however you'll hear 993 fans use this very reason for preferring them.... Which is fine) I'm a car enthusiast and all 911s are interesting cars. When people ask advice, all we can do is explain our preferences but I do wish people would do it without criticising each other's taste. Your 997 looks very nice by the way! I'm sure MTRs 993 is as well.

Hungrymc said: I'm a car enthusiast and all 911s are interesting cars. We can certainly agree on that!

I am in a similar boat... Thinking about trading in the E92 M3 for my 1st Porsche... I do like the Cayman's but a bit worried that I will be disappointed with straight line pace. Porsche 996 turbo or a 997 carrera hmmm

mollytherocker said: You cant get a 997.2 C2 for 25k. Maybe 35k. Nor a 996 C4S for £15k I would go 996 turbo on your budget.

Shurv said: Hi Molly, I just prefer the 996 shape to the 997. I feel the 997 is trying too hard to look like a 993, just to keep the beardies happy. The 996 C4S is so much nicer to look at than the 997 ,especially the 997 C4S. It's all my own opinion though, so don't expect anyone else to agree. I agree with you!

monthefish said: Nor a 996 C4S for £15k I would go 996 turbo on your budget. You can get C4S for as low as £12.5k privately if your willing to roll the dice on a 100k mile car ( http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2014... . I think for £15-16k you should be able to get a reasonable one. I paid £14,350 for mine knowing it would need money spent on it. In total it has cost me an additional £1.5k for a minor service, IMS upgrade, suspension overhaul, alignment and replacement of other worn bits and pieces. I will probably spend another £500 in the next 6 months tidying up a few other things, so £16,350 in total.

R26Andy said: monthefish said: Nor a 996 C4S for £15k I would go 996 turbo on your budget. You can get C4S for as low as £12.5k privately if your willing to roll the dice on a 100k mile car ( http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2014... . I think for £15-16k you should be able to get a reasonable one. I paid £14,350 for mine knowing it would need money spent on it. In total it has cost me an additional £1.5k for a minor service, IMS upgrade, suspension overhaul, alignment and replacement of other worn bits and pieces. I will probably spend another £500 in the next 6 months tidying up a few other things, so £16,350 in total. For some reason, I have a reluctance to trust Autotrader cars. The cheapest C4S on PH is £17,475 with most around the £20k mark. I think you got a good deal.

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted. If Porsche did a 4WD Cayman with small back seats and the engine in the rear I'd love one.

The C4S cars are beginning to appreciate in value.

ratcatcher2 said: The C4S cars are beginning to appreciate in value. They certainly don't seem to have dropped much, if at all, over the last few years.

monthefish said: They certainly don't seem to have dropped much, if at all, over the last few years. Dealer who I sold mine on to back in 2010 with 58k on the clock had it up for (and presumably sold near to) £22.5k.

mollytherocker said: Hungrymc said: I'm a car enthusiast and all 911s are interesting cars. We can certainly agree on that! yes I would have half a dozen if I could , there was a very nice 996 C4S in the show room when I bought mine at nearly the same price, I was tempted but mine had PASM and im a crap driver so that swung it ,

monthefish said: mollytherocker said: You cant get a 997.2 C2 for 25k. Maybe 35k. Nor a 996 C4S for £15k Did they do a Carrera 4 as a 3.6?

Seeker UK said: Did they do a Carrera 4 as a 3.6? Yes. But if you're thinking 996 4wd = safer etc, I wouldn't bother and would just go after a C2. By the time the 4wd is actually helping in any significant way on the public road, you're either a) driving like a lunatic and would crash anyway b) driving without TC/PSM switched on on a public road and worried about the outcome (i.e. not enough talent like most of us!), so see option (a)

Seeker UK said: monthefish said: mollytherocker said: You cant get a 997.2 C2 for 25k. Maybe 35k. Nor a 996 C4S for £15k Did they do a Carrera 4 as a 3.6? Yes, all of the 996.2 (the non-fried egg light cars) were 3.6.

After 11 911's of all guises, ive just bought this to thrash around in for similar budget DMS mods equating to big bucks and 550 BHP. GT2 brakes 997 GT2 intercoolers Milltek pipe etc etc etc. Quickest 911 i've had and that includes a GT2. High on the miles, albeit that doesn't bother me as the history is good and its bloody mint inside and out. Main bonus for me though is due to miles and its value i can use it and enjoy it

Mario149 said: Seeker UK said: Did they do a Carrera 4 as a 3.6? Yes. But if you're thinking 996 4wd = safer etc, I wouldn't bother and would just go after a C2. By the time the 4wd is actually helping in any significant way on the public road, you're either a) driving like a lunatic and would crash anyway b) driving without TC/PSM switched on on a public road and worried about the outcome (i.e. not enough talent like most of us!), so see option (a) Thanks for the advice. I had assumed that the rear-engine layout of the 911 meant a degree more tail-happiness than the RWD cars I am used to (BMWs etc) and that was best mitigated by the AWD of the C4(S). Are you saying though that PSM is a must? Was it standard fit?

Seeker UK said: Thanks for the advice. I had assumed that the rear-engine layout of the 911 meant a degree more tail-happiness than the RWD cars I am used to (BMWs etc) and that was best mitigated by the AWD of the C4(S). Are you saying though that PSM is a must? Was it standard fit? Please don't take this the wrong way, but whats wrong with learning how to drive a 911. Thats the fun! They wont kill you, especially a 996, they are a total pussycat! You do not need 4WD or any of the kack that they add now to 'save you from yourself'.

Seeker UK said: Thanks for the advice. I had assumed that the rear-engine layout of the 911 meant a degree more tail-happiness than the RWD cars I am used to (BMWs etc) and that was best mitigated by the AWD of the C4(S). Are you saying though that PSM is a must? Was it standard fit? The issue with a rear engined RWD car like the 911 is that you get more more grip and traction at the rear due to added weight, but when it "lets go" it's more of a handful to catch (although from 993s onwards they don't have the semi trailing arm set up so you have less problems with lift off oversteer) as the rotational moment of inertia is higher due to the engine being at the extremity of the (rear of the) car rather than in the middle as say in a Cayman/Boxster. 4wd on a 911 is an interesting one. Up until the 997.2, the front wheels were hooked up via a viscous coupling system which is activated by a speed differential between the front and rear wheels. Under normal conditions on a 996 C4/C4S, only a small amount of drive is sent to the front wheels (something like 5%). Loosely translated, this means that until the rears are spinning faster than the fronts (i.e. you're power oversteering), the fronts aren't really doing a great deal. If you're doing trackdays in the wet (I did a couple in my C4S) with PSM/TC off it will help then if you have the tail out as drive is automatically "sent" to the front. Regular (not GTX) 911s (IME) are in general set up for mild understeer as you approach the limit. Having some drive to the front wheels (i.e. a 4wd drive system as previously described) could actually increase this slightly as the fronts are "working harder" than they would be if they were just steering, although I suspect this might be negated by the fact that the fronts on a a 4wd 911 would have more weight over them due to the extra driveshafts etc. and so mould provide more grip than the 2wd version. Either way, adjusting the geo is going to have far more effect, centre gravity have tweaked my 993 Bilstein setup such that it's actually getting scary how much front end grip I have turning in slightly trail braking. I actually need to find an empty roundabout to find out where the limit is just for peace of mind. To answer your final query, I would not say PSM/TC is a must - 993s don't have either and there are plenty of us here with them who haven't killed ourselves....yet But they are an added safety net and regular NA 996s will either have one or t'other (PSM obviously being best). The best thing I can say is that if you're intending on driving the car in a manner on the road that means you'll likely be near/on the limits of grip, make sure you've got the TC/PSM switch on. And if you don't have it switched on, make sure you at least had it sliding around on track etc a bit first so you know what to expect. It's comedy gold when the rear lets go in the wet on a track unexpectedly and you spin out like a lemon. It's brown trousers (and I speak from personal experience!) when it lets go on the road and you're not expecting it

I was concerned before I bought the 964 (My first 911) that a C2 was going to be a total handful and I was going to put it backwards through a hedge. I read all I could about the benefits of 4WD (especially up here where it's wet a lot) and how to set them up correctly so that it had dialled out the understeer etc. I had read about the slow in, fast out, never EVER lift off mid corner driving instructions. I was genuinely concerned it would be too much for me. It took me about 4 weeks to start pushing it properly and get it on a run where I could start playing with it. I have never been in anything that grips so well and holds corners the way this thing does. It is ridiculously well planted in all weather it has encountered so far. I have to be doing scandi flicks to get the back end unstuck. It's almost too sane for me and I have a hankering for something livelier that I can play with more. I wouldn't go for the 4WD version unless it's just for the 4S looks. I think you'd have to be pretty ham fisted to "need" it. C2 Manual Coupes, off all ages, are the ones to own. The novelty of the fat erse will wear off eventually (even Baz is selling up!) but as a thing to drive, the C2 is perfectly capable in all but heavy snow.

Crimp a Length! said: After 11 911's of all guises, ive just bought this to thrash around in for similar budget DMS mods equating to big bucks and 550 BHP. GT2 brakes 997 GT2 intercoolers Milltek pipe etc etc etc. Quickest 911 i've had and that includes a GT2. That looks fantastic, and for £25k is amazing! Could be searching for a long time to find a similarly modified Turbo though. Imagine if you did it yourself you'd be talking £10-15k for the wheels, bumpers, wing and mods?

Just on the subject of C2 - vs - C4, saw this post on 911uk a while back and though it made a lot of sense. FWIW, I found the 996 turbo could be 'frisky' at the rear when pushing on (and can see why the GT2 requires respect) but obviously the Carrera has less power/torque so probably less of an issue. post on 911uk said: Always a little wary of RWD, all very well that you can hang the tail out and drift on a track, but sadly oil, water, ice, leaves, cold tires and basically the unforeseen tends to result in greater effects the more powerful the RWD car. Add the historically romantic, but ultimately when the laws of physics are considered, non-ideal engine positioning of the 911, and I am afraid I go for the C4. Some people say benefits only in wet, but anytime rear exhibits traction loss will force drive to front. I have previously managed to get a couple of C2 sideways in the (cold) dry and they were fully PSM'd 997s. However, touch wood, never lost a Turbo or C4. Somehow, I want my idea of a "Hedge Fund" to remain the perceived reason for global economic crashes, not the funds needed to fix wayward C2 crashes. The C4 benefits from slightly more weight over the front wheels. The marginally better weight distribution (the extra 55kgs is forward biased) - 40:60 vs 38:62 - brings a preferable steering response in my opinion. However, 55KGs is not that much heavier, as this is approx the same as a full tank of fuel - ie an empty C4 weights less thans a full C2. In the real world with loose surfaces, leaves and wet, 0-60 mph should favour the C4 as it can put all its power down without loss of traction. The C4 is 95% the same as a C2 during balanced driving (only 5% drive to front wheels). Bear in mind, during normal driving with only 5% torque to front wheels, it is not a "hot hatch" torque steer scenario (5% = putting down roughly 7 lbft through the width of each front tire). You get PSM (Porsche Stability Management) as standard on C4s, which you can switch off if you don't like or need (ie for track days etc), but if it isn't fitted to a C2 you obviously cannot turn on! On the tires front, ok do you lose the ability to "light up the rear tires", but the AWD means, if anything the tires are worn out slower overall. Again comparing early cars, C4s all had eGas drive-by-wire which allows easy cruise control upgrade if nothing else (also more advanced engine management). With regard the boot space. Firstly, it's a sports car not a Volvo estate, secondly, erm, rear boot, two rear seats and folding seat backs, so in a straight competition with Ferrari 360 the Porker wins the B&Q and dog transport challenge hands down! Seriously, though, the C2 has it's inflated spare wheel and toolkit vertical, so actual front to back dimensions are almost identical. The C4 has it's tool kit and deflated spare wheel in the boot well. Ok so you loose out on height, but the average squashy bag, or washing bucket (!) is alot shorter (the C2 boot is actually quite deep). So the headroom would be wasted any way, unless you planned to squash one and half bags in it. The C4 has the same torsionally stronger and stiffer front chassis, suspension mounts and body structures as the GT3. Ok, technically the GT3 stole the structure from the C4, but either way Porsche saw fit to use it on the GT3. I understand I can't do donuts or powerslide (unless it is a full four-wheel drift), but you can really hustle cross-country in a C4. AtoB there is no substitute for an AWD Porsche. You can really lean on the security and idiot-proof handling. The true test it to drive both. If you can't tell the difference (or you prefer the C4), buy the C4. Because the day you NEED to tell the difference, it may be too late. This is Autocar's inaugral review of the 996 C4 back in October 1998: autocar said: All wheel drive doesn't just give Porsche's newest 911 extra stability and safety - it also boosts driver involvement. Peter Robinson reports. Your fingers convey the information the instant you turn the wheel. The steering is heavier, meatier, less sensitive. Not much, but enough of a difference to be immediately discernible to hands acquainted with the rear-drive Carrera. The distinctions grew the longer we played with the Carrera 4 on the wonderfully demanding roads surrounding Porsche's Weissach proving ground. A bit more steering lock, a sense of mild understeer in a second-gear hairpin. Extra steering effort as increasing lateral forces amplify steering loads through a fourth-gear sweeper. A fraction less self-centring. Finally - and prepare for the ongoing arguments - a perception that this steering is actually more involving than that of the Carrera 2. ... It takes no more than a couple of corners to fall in love with the C4. It's a normal 911, only better. More stable, especially at the high speeds the Carrera so quickly attains, less nervous in strong crosswinds, and even more consistent in its dynamics. At first it seems slightly less agile, because wheel movements are bigger, but experience reveals that its handling is actually more neutral, less oversteery. Experimentation with the PSM reveals that the C4 responds to a smooth driving style and minimises the need for driver reactions, making it more relaxing to drive than the C2, not least a very high speeds on the autobahn. ... All the driver understands is that the nose is less prone to pushing wide. The engine management system is set up so that if you lift off suddenly in a bend, a degree of torque is maintained to smooth out the weight transfer and reduce the car's reactions. It all makes for a supercar that is as failsafe as any, yet remains fun to drive quickly, the electronics doing their job so unobtrusive that most drivers won't even notice, unless they attack corners with arms flailing. Even then, it's effectively impossible to throw the C4 off balance, though not even the C4 can defy the laws of physics. ... The choice between C2 and C4 remains as complex as ever. The C4 is undoubtedly the more talented car, exuding an invincible air that many will find irresistible. p.s. He's wrong about losing the ability to light up the rears

hondansx said: Crimp a Length! said: After 11 911's of all guises, ive just bought this to thrash around in for similar budget DMS mods equating to big bucks and 550 BHP. GT2 brakes 997 GT2 intercoolers Milltek pipe etc etc etc. Quickest 911 i've had and that includes a GT2. That looks fantastic, and for £25k is amazing! Could be searching for a long time to find a similarly modified Turbo though. Imagine if you did it yourself you'd be talking £10-15k for the wheels, bumpers, wing and mods? Thanks yeah there is some big bills in the history just from DMS themselves who did the mechanical mods. Not sure how much the wheels were but the GT2 front bumper/spoiler etc are all genuine Porsche parts so somebody flexed their credit card somewhat. I figured at that sort of purchase price i could run for a year or 2 and get my money back fairly easily hopefully, not overly worried if i don't though as the enjoyment factor cancels out all future values!

monthefish said: Just on the subject of C2 - vs - C4, saw this post on 911uk a while back and though it made a lot of sense. FWIW, I found the 996 turbo could be 'frisky' at the rear when pushing on (and can see why the GT2 requires respect) but obviously the Carrera has less power/torque so probably less of an issue. post on 911uk said: Always a little wary of RWD, all very well that you can hang the tail out and drift on a track, but sadly oil, water, ice, leaves, cold tires and basically the unforeseen tends to result in greater effects the more powerful the RWD car. Add the historically romantic, but ultimately when the laws of physics are considered, non-ideal engine positioning of the 911, and I am afraid I go for the C4. Some people say benefits only in wet, but anytime rear exhibits traction loss will force drive to front. I have previously managed to get a couple of C2 sideways in the (cold) dry and they were fully PSM'd 997s. However, touch wood, never lost a Turbo or C4. Somehow, I want my idea of a "Hedge Fund" to remain the perceived reason for global economic crashes, not the funds needed to fix wayward C2 crashes. The C4 benefits from slightly more weight over the front wheels. The marginally better weight distribution (the extra 55kgs is forward biased) - 40:60 vs 38:62 - brings a preferable steering response in my opinion. However, 55KGs is not that much heavier, as this is approx the same as a full tank of fuel - ie an empty C4 weights less thans a full C2. In the real world with loose surfaces, leaves and wet, 0-60 mph should favour the C4 as it can put all its power down without loss of traction. The C4 is 95% the same as a C2 during balanced driving (only 5% drive to front wheels). Bear in mind, during normal driving with only 5% torque to front wheels, it is not a "hot hatch" torque steer scenario (5% = putting down roughly 7 lbft through the width of each front tire). You get PSM (Porsche Stability Management) as standard on C4s, which you can switch off if you don't like or need (ie for track days etc), but if it isn't fitted to a C2 you obviously cannot turn on! On the tires front, ok do you lose the ability to "light up the rear tires", but the AWD means, if anything the tires are worn out slower overall. Again comparing early cars, C4s all had eGas drive-by-wire which allows easy cruise control upgrade if nothing else (also more advanced engine management). With regard the boot space. Firstly, it's a sports car not a Volvo estate, secondly, erm, rear boot, two rear seats and folding seat backs, so in a straight competition with Ferrari 360 the Porker wins the B&Q and dog transport challenge hands down! Seriously, though, the C2 has it's inflated spare wheel and toolkit vertical, so actual front to back dimensions are almost identical. The C4 has it's tool kit and deflated spare wheel in the boot well. Ok so you loose out on height, but the average squashy bag, or washing bucket (!) is alot shorter (the C2 boot is actually quite deep). So the headroom would be wasted any way, unless you planned to squash one and half bags in it. The C4 has the same torsionally stronger and stiffer front chassis, suspension mounts and body structures as the GT3. Ok, technically the GT3 stole the structure from the C4, but either way Porsche saw fit to use it on the GT3. I understand I can't do donuts or powerslide (unless it is a full four-wheel drift), but you can really hustle cross-country in a C4. AtoB there is no substitute for an AWD Porsche. You can really lean on the security and idiot-proof handling. The true test it to drive both. If you can't tell the difference (or you prefer the C4), buy the C4. Because the day you NEED to tell the difference, it may be too late. This is Autocar's inaugral review of the 996 C4 back in October 1998: autocar said: All wheel drive doesn't just give Porsche's newest 911 extra stability and safety - it also boosts driver involvement. Peter Robinson reports. Your fingers convey the information the instant you turn the wheel. The steering is heavier, meatier, less sensitive. Not much, but enough of a difference to be immediately discernible to hands acquainted with the rear-drive Carrera. The distinctions grew the longer we played with the Carrera 4 on the wonderfully demanding roads surrounding Porsche's Weissach proving ground. A bit more steering lock, a sense of mild understeer in a second-gear hairpin. Extra steering effort as increasing lateral forces amplify steering loads through a fourth-gear sweeper. A fraction less self-centring. Finally - and prepare for the ongoing arguments - a perception that this steering is actually more involving than that of the Carrera 2. ... It takes no more than a couple of corners to fall in love with the C4. It's a normal 911, only better. More stable, especially at the high speeds the Carrera so quickly attains, less nervous in strong crosswinds, and even more consistent in its dynamics. At first it seems slightly less agile, because wheel movements are bigger, but experience reveals that its handling is actually more neutral, less oversteery. Experimentation with the PSM reveals that the C4 responds to a smooth driving style and minimises the need for driver reactions, making it more relaxing to drive than the C2, not least a very high speeds on the autobahn. ... All the driver understands is that the nose is less prone to pushing wide. The engine management system is set up so that if you lift off suddenly in a bend, a degree of torque is maintained to smooth out the weight transfer and reduce the car's reactions. It all makes for a supercar that is as failsafe as any, yet remains fun to drive quickly, the electronics doing their job so unobtrusive that most drivers won't even notice, unless they attack corners with arms flailing. Even then, it's effectively impossible to throw the C4 off balance, though not even the C4 can defy the laws of physics. ... The choice between C2 and C4 remains as complex as ever. The C4 is undoubtedly the more talented car, exuding an invincible air that many will find irresistible. p.s. He's wrong about losing the ability to light up the rears Autocar review makes an interesting read But it should be remembered that 1) almost all the handling traits they praise the C4 for can be achieved via getting the suspension set up how you want it rather than what Porsche deliver it with/have in the book and putting a crate or 2 of beer in the boot (double win!) 2) you're (as in one) is buying a 911 for the 911 driving experience which always going to be quintessentially a RWD one. I wouldn't trade that for a "better" driving 911, all other things being equal. Personally, if it was a toss up between and identical C2 and C4, I'd take the C2, but in reality I'd take the car that was in better condition

Mario149 said: Personally, if it was a toss up between and identical C2 and C4, I'd take the C2, but in reality I'd take the car that was in better condition Personally, if it was a toss up between and identical C2 and C4, I'd take the C2 for the track and a C4 for the road. (RWD slidey heroics are all well and good, but UK roads just aren't wide enough to accommodate a car sideways )

I don't get the rwd c2 slidey thing? Seriously, that tail doesn't deviate unless I do something that would make a c4 slide. And I don't hold back either. What situations do you find the c2 slidey in?

OlberJ said: I don't get the rwd c2 slidey thing? Seriously, that tail doesn't deviate unless I do something that would make a c4 slide. And I don't hold back either. What situations do you find the c2 slidey in? I honestly dont know where people get this b ks from. Maybe they heard Clarkson say it? Anyone would think think that you have to be some sort of drift king to be able to press on a little unless all wheels are driven. And the notion that 4WD is some sort of sheild that prevents crashing is utter rubbish.

My £25k would be buying this.......£1k left over for insurance etc.....job done http://www.911uk.com/ads_item.php?id=5335&sid=...

mollytherocker said: OlberJ said: I don't get the rwd c2 slidey thing? Seriously, that tail doesn't deviate unless I do something that would make a c4 slide. And I don't hold back either. What situations do you find the c2 slidey in? I honestly dont know where people get this b ks from. Maybe they heard Clarkson say it? Anyone would think think that you have to be some sort of drift king to be able to press on a little unless all wheels are driven. And the notion that 4WD is some sort of sheild that prevents crashing is utter rubbish. My comment was RWD in general and not specifically at the 911 C2 (although the 'throwing a hammer handle first' comment is quite a funny analogy) It's not about 'saving you from an accident' it's about being able to deploy as much of the engine's performance as much of the time as possible. Yes, yes, steering feel is very important, and a C2 will be 'purer' (a bit - I've driven them back to back and the difference is not as significant as internet forums like to believe) but, for me, the 95% rear/5% front drive balance coupled with the benefits that 4wd brings is the sweet spot. I don't want you to agree with me. You hairy chested old 911 drivers like what you like. I like what I like.

bigunit00 said: My £25k would be buying this.......£1k left over for insurance etc.....job done http://www.911uk.com/ads_item.php?id=5335&sid=... Wow that's clean! They should really have the drivers seat bolster refurbed, as it stands out on such an otherwise very tidy car.

monthefish said: I don't want you to agree with me. You hairy chested old 911 drivers like what you like. I like what I like. I'd defo pick a C4 over a BMW for wet weather. Then again, an early Z3MC seems to be what I really want!

Point to point the 996 turbo is the best wet weather car I'd driven it feels so planted, no drama it just delivers!

bigunit00 said: My £25k would be buying this.......£1k left over for insurance etc.....job done http://www.911uk.com/ads_item.php?id=5335&sid=... Nice... ...apart from the blue leather.

Have to say for me wouldn't hesitate ,option 4 easily .

monthefish said: mollytherocker said: You cant get a 997.2 C2 for 25k. Maybe 35k. Nor a 996 C4S for £15k /quote] I sold my 2003 (04 MY) manual C4S for 15k privately, 18mths ago. Seal Grey with Black Interior, Nav, Bose & Lithtronic, 1 previous owner, a fully documented service history and on a transferable Hartech service plan. Although it had covered 95k miles, it was in excellent condition with recent 4 x MPS tyres and a full Hartech service. Trade bids at the time ranged between 12 - 14K. The only costs the current owner has incurred are an oil service and brake pads.

monthefish said: mollytherocker said: You cant get a 997.2 C2 for 25k. Maybe 35k. Nor a 996 C4S for £15k /quote] I sold my 2003 (04 MY) manual C4S for 15k privately, 18mths ago. Seal Grey with Black Interior, Nav, Bose & Lithtronic, 1 previous owner, a fully documented service history and on a transferable Hartech service plan. Although it had covered 95k miles, it was in excellent condition with recent 4 x MPS tyres and a full Hartech service. Trade bids at the time ranged between 12 - 14K. The only costs the current owner has incurred are an oil service and brake pads.