996

Just browsing auto trader today and saw this: http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201037368343246/sort/priceasc/usedcars/model/911/make/porsche/radius/100/postcode/sn34pd/page/2/quicksearch/true?logcode=p My first instinct said that at this price it is going to be one to steer clear of! Being local however, I thought no harm in looking and enquiring to see why it was so cheap. I didn't really get to the bottom of it. The chap buys and sells cars, and claims the car was sourced from a lawyer in london who didn't want the bother of selling privately, so he had it inspected, it came out ok and he made him an offer which was accepted. According to the seller the car although at 111k had a major service at 109k, which included over 2k of documented work from the local porsche garage to the owner, it consisted of fluid changes (oil and brake fluid change), spark plugs, filters, coils, new MAF and gearbox oil seal as well as clutch. He claims it to be HPI clear with certificate. I asked for the chaps postcode, he advised he was out collecting a car tonight so i put the postcode in the sat nav on the way home and popped over and had a look around it as it was on the way home from work. From the outside it actually looks mint, no scratches, scathes or signs of aging, it appears it has had new discs front and back, although drilled, so I suspect not OEM (they were new as they had no visible discolouring and the hub covers were still silver), the brake pads front and back also apeared new, as well as the front tyres, the rears had a few k off of them though. The body was straight and solid, the interior looked clean apart from some minor wear on the drivers bolster. Underneath the car was also solid and sealed. The exhaust looked ok, discoloured however as mild steel does. The wishbones and suspension components looked aged, but not damaged in any way. The bottom of the gearbox and engine was grimey, it appeared from road dirt and general ground in grease, but was dry and not oiley. I was actually surprised by the condition, the car also has 12 months mot and is taxed until march 2011. From what I could see it looked like it has been looked after, but I wonder how he got his hands on it, and how cheap it was - especially given he is selling it on that cheap. I'm curious, and waiting to see the other one at the weekend, so I am popping over tomorrow on the way home to check it out properly and test it. I'll let you guys know how it drives and if anything odd shows up. If nothing else it will be something to compare to the one I am seeing at the weekend. Thanks, Steve

The car sounds like it has had a good deal of mileage related work done which is a good thing. If you are interested, give Peter Morgan a call to have a look at it properly. Of course an inspection cannot predict some problems but he looks and drives these cars on a daily basis so can at least tell you what its like from an unbiased point of view. Obviously buy on condition. To be fair, the price does reflect the age and mileage, if a little lower than market price. I sold my own '99 Tip with 75 k miles for slightly more. I advertised it in the 3 Porsche mags, forums and Autotrader and even then I had very few calls about it initially although the first guy that saw it bought it .Just to give you an idea why the trader is offering the car at that price, I took my car to the OPC to be valued for a trade-in and they offered me £7k for my car even though it had over £8k of work done on it ( all suspension arms, bushes, brakes with original parts, refurbed starter & alternator, new coolant tanks, new rads, new lambda sensors & MAF, FSH inc TIptronic fluid & filter service, major service just completed, car detailed, unmarked interior etc)

I too would be dubious at the price, but then the next cheapest one on autotrader is another 98 S with 59k miles on it for only £2k more, and little info in the advert. The interior of that car looks a lot worse than the high mileage one. High mileage water cooled 911 not valued much in the trade. The seller has obviously given it a good valet (a whole can of silicon spray in the engine bay !), and maybe spent on tyres/brakes. Check it thoroughly, make sure all lights are on the dashboard with ignition in position 2 (ie no bulbs removed to hide a fault !), drive it and then do your own HPI check. I'd also check the vin number against the handbook sticker, and also check the options it supposedly had from new (18" wheels may have been added later, or even replica wheels). Could be a bargain if the engine and gearbox (check for oil change in the service history) is sound.

Thanks for the reply both. It seemed odd to me as I don't think I have seen a 996 that cheap before, especially as it appears to be in good order. Minny, the trade in / part X price that you were offered surprises me - the dealer would be doubling that surely? It just goes to show how much people in the right car trade can make, although no doubt they too get stung at times with poor cars. Black, I'm going to take a look this evening anyway, there is no harm in having a look around it, I am more curious about it than anything else. Although I was thinking it should be one to steer clear of, what if it was sound and a bargain...(ponders)..... Thanks,

Just to add, I am always a little suspect of looking at a car at the bottom of the market. I mean I could purchase an M3 for 9k, but I just wouldn't look at anything under 14k - it would likely have hidden history and be anything but a decent car. I think by contrast, the price point I am looking 13-14k my budget is still a little low for a 911, however, I've decided that I am willing to 'write off' this money for the sake of getting into 911 ownership. As I will not be using the car very often at all, I suppose a high mileage car won't really age much more (will be kept in a heated garage when not used). So as long as I have a well looked after, sound and solid 911 then that is what matters. This car could be a bargain, but it could also have a lot of hidden issues. Still I will report back Thanks, Steve

You have nothing to lose, OPC and specialist service receipts should also document any wear items needing attention soon, so check the next service for these items being attended to. Don't forget a nice green MOT cert isn't all that much a guarantee, as the amber sheet (often not present !) could have a huge list of upcoming items. For the sake of £40 i'd ask for it to be MOT'd again.

Thanks again. Just printing off the buyers guide here to take with me as well to check some common points / issues.

[/quote] Absolutely what I thought. To be fair, BMW offered me only £8k for the car the next week so I sold it privately and bought a Turbo from 911 Virgin. Your budget of £13-14k should get you a decent '98 - 99 car with reasonable miles or a high mileage '00 car if you keep looking. Like I said earlier, mine had a whole load of preventative work done and was in good condition although not concours for the money. The guy that came to see it said he had driven a whole load of 996s and a lot were rubbish but mine had the best history and had a significant amount of work done. He also mentioned that the drive reflected this. I can't comment obviously as to how a rubbish 996 would drive as I have been fortunate so far not to have been in one. Do consider an independent inspection though.

This is interesting. I called Dick Lovett, my local porsche dealer, spoke to service and advised I was potentially going to purchase a car and I wanted to try and verify the mileage. I gave them the registration. Whilst they couldn't give out specifics because of data protection, they advised that they had seen the car in 1999 @ 6000 miles, again in 2000 and the latest was 2001 when a major service was done at 25k, but that was all they could say. I thanked them for their help. Now, I recall he said it came from a lawyer in London. So, I went on the porsche website and found the number for west london. I called the branch and again spoke to service. Whilst again he could not give out specifics he told me that the car had been within their network from 2002 until last year. I asked about the service last year for 2k and the gear box oil seal etc, he said he could confirm that they carried out that work and that invoice checks out. He said for any more information however, I would need to call them with the service dates and document information to confirm it was a genuine enquiry. I pushed him a little about whether the car had been serviced when it should be and if everything that needed to be done had been, he said that looking at the record for the vehicle, it has been well kept / looked after and is well worth a look.....

Looks like we both posted at the same time then I've seen 911 Virgin, sadly though, most of their vehicles are above my budget right now. I agree with your point on selling - that is something to consider, from my personal view, I would rather buy a well cared for car with high mileage that has been proven, rather than a lower mileage car that has had corners cut. Thanks for the advice.

Peter Morgan does the inspection for about £300 and I think for a little more he does the detective work for you about the provenance of the car.

I've taken a look at Peter's site. The inspection looks very thorough and they provide a very detailed report. I must stress that I was 100% sure I wasn't going to purchase this particular vehicle because of the price, and my initial instinct when I initially saw the advertisment. I was simply checking it out as it was a local vehicle and another to see before the weekend, but upon seeing it in the flesh, and further investigating it could prove to be a good buy (for the price). I was surprised how much better it looked in the flesh than in the photos. As I mentioned my goal here is to get into 911 ownership and experience, providing things continue as they are, I can always upgrade later. Do we know how much the liquid cooled 3.4 engines are good if well cared for in this model? Thanks,

The 3.4 engines have had a significant amount of bad press if you look at any forum. They were Porsche's first water cooled engine and there were some weaknesses with them. Then again, BMWs had a whole load of problems with turbos on their excellent diesel engines and valvetronic problems relating to the petrol engines including the M models. The difference is that Porsche's PR was appalling when the engines went bang - they refused to provide any explanation or good will contribution towards the repair. Common problems are RMS leaks and most are really minor. The only annoying factor is that the underside of the engine is damp with oil. Usually it is not significant enough even to make a difference to the engine oil level between services. Most people leave it till a clutch change to fix the RMS. Mine was a tiptronic and the indy I go to said not to even bother fixing it as the leak is sporadic. Occasionally the area below the bell housing is more damp than other times and this can last for weeks then it is dry for months. The IMS bearing can go sometimes and when it does, the engine is usually terminal. Same thing as when there is a crack in the bore liner. There are some website you should look at first but research them with an open mind and appreciate that the problems highlighted in them is relatively rare. Have a look at the Hartech, Autofarm and LN Engineering website. I bought my car knowing it was so much cheaper than the later facelift model and that by saving £10k that would be my contingency fund. If all was well, the £10k saving would be a bonus to put to the next car. I looked at loads until what sounded like the right car and then had it inspected and bought it after. I loved the car everyday I owned it and regretted not one moment. All the other work I did to my car was preventative work and not strictly necessary but I like tinkering. The problems other than the potential engine ones are common to all 996s and to some extent the 997 e.g worn suspension bushes, joints, leaky radiators and coolant tanks.

Thanks again. I went over the car this evening, all electrics seemed to work, the body work was good. Inside the luggage compartment was dry and looked original under the lining. The rad and condensor looked new under the bumper too, and later proved to be with the paperwork to back it up last year. I dipped the oil, no foam or any residue at all, it was clean oil. The filler cap had nothing around it, was dry to all intent (is that correct?). I checked the car and engine, it was cold so hadn't been started earlier. No leaky coolant smell or anything else in the bay. I turned the key to position 2, all lights came up in a solid line along the bottom of the clocks and then several went out. I started the car, turnover was a little sluggish, but it sounded like a typical low charge battery - highly likely he said it was stood since the MOT 10 days ago. The car started and tickover wasn't that high at all for a cold start, perhaps 800 ish? The engine was quiet, sounded smooth, no rattles and no strange noises. I took a look in the back again, the engine was very quiet still. The oil pressure sat at nearly 5 bar, I was concerned as I heard it should be around 1-2 on tickover when warm and 4-5 at higher revs, although the car wasn't properly warm yet. I took the car for a test, steering was straight and no pulling, the wheel was not off centre so the wheel alignment seemed ok as well. Under breaking the car went straight, didn't pull to any side and there was no vibration or wobble on the wheel / pedal. The only thing I did notice was I needed to press down more than I would have liked, the brakes were not overly responsive, I later smelt the fresh pads I saw earlier, so it's likely they are bedding in. The spoiler raised and retracted ok too at aprx 75. Acceleration was smooth, and there were no flat spots or roughness, everything seemed ok here. The gear box felt good, and went in gear easily, reverse and forward gears engaged fine, they got a little smoother however as the car warmed up. All in all the car went great, and felt lovely to drive, my only concern was the fact that the clutch pedal felt a little 'stiff'. There was perhaps a cm of movement pressing down before the clutch would engage, although there was plenty of when letting up. I wouldn't say the clutch was heavy, just more of a stiff feeling? I'm not sure whether this is or is not normal though. All of the paperwork checked out, every MOT since new, lots of receipts and history including all paperwork for the recent new MAF, gearbox seal, coils, plugs, radiator and condensor, gearbox oil, engine oil etc etc. Last service was March this year at only 3k ago. All in all I am impressed. There is just the issue with the clutch if it is one? Thanks, Steve

Intresting read, sounds like you had a good look over the car, and did the right checks. It seems cheap even if it has done 111.000 miles, my suggestion would be that you arrange for the nearest OPC to do a 110 point inspection, or get Peter Morgan to have a look or a good Indy. If you are intrested then your not going to loose it over a clutch? The dealer may even do somthing on the price to go towards this, of cause this is worst case, it may be somthing more simple which would come up during an inspection. Breaks can take a while to clear if it has been standing, and with 996 breaks they do have to be worked quiet hard but the more you put into them the more you get out, it took me a while to get use to this. It would be intresting to see how you get on. Good luck Phil

Thanks Phil. As I mentioned, my only real reservation was the clutch, as everything else has been done when it needed to be. The car has been looked after, as at every service there is a list of replacements from minor things to the more major. I'm in two minds really, it seemed like this could be a bit of a bargain, and a good find that happens to be right on my door step. I don't want to pay out for an inspection if I am not sure that I am seriously interested, perhaps I should see another first, but then at this price this one could go soon. From my point of view the car seems to check out, the history is there, it's a solid car with a good drive, so I need to make my mind up on the next step which is proving difficult (head vs heart situation here!). Sleeping on it didn't help last night either, I'm still a little confused as to what to do next.

steve...just buy it you know it makes sense...[ ]

Is this "problem" with the clutch based on comparison with another 996 or another type of car altogether? When all said and done it's a 12 year old car with 111k miles and, as good as they are, it won't be like a new one! Sounds to me as if your head are heart are in agreement here![ ]

+ 1 Andrew W.

Call the last garage that serviced it and ask for their opinion - especially if the same place had it for several services. Ask specifically if they noted anythign about the clutch. I guess its all relative - what seems heavy to one person is normal to another; all depends what car you are used too. The brakes are very progressive - Porsche brakes are excellent, and people expect them to be razor sharp on first bite (like VW/Audi used to be). This is not the case, you tend to have to push quite a bit to get moderate braking, and then a lot more for full effect. The great thing is they never fade on a hard drive (unlike BMWs) and are so gentle at the top of the travel it makes for smooth driving with passengers. Get an inspection, provided the engine and gearbox get a clean bill of health then buy it - knock a few hundred off for the clutch (use it as a bargaining power even if it is OK). From the sounds of your visual assessment it's about as good ad you'll find for the age and mileage.

Cheers guys. I also forgot to mention, the temp sat bang on 90 during the drive in and out of traffic as well as on a run so this seemed ok. The pressure also settled to 1.5 aprox on tick over when @ 90 degrees and rose to 4-5 bar on acceleration at higher revs, so I was happy this settled. One odd thing, the climate control showed manual in what seemed to be french on the display? I assume this can be changed? The car is also not an import. Oh and there were other little checks I did such as the windows dropping when opening etc. The alternator must have also been working too, as the power supply once started was fine for everything in the car, lights included. The comparison on the clutch is with my current car, and other sports saloons I have driven - it just felt a bit stiff and creeky for my liking. My brother works in the motor trade, I've just got him to HPI it as one of the first steps and it came out clear, owners matched up along with chasis no (although I couldn't locate the engine no?), no recorded accidents and no finance etc outstanding, 5 keepers as per the log book. I also spoke to the chap about my reservations with the clutch, after some negotiating I managed to knock £300 off, and then a further £100. Now to decide on inspection and call the previous service centre and if it's good, put down a deposit and arrange collection? We will see..... Thanks again.

To quote Richard from the oil pressure thread... "You should see about 1.0-1.5 bar at hot tickover, and 4.0-5.0 at 5000rpm." Air con when in manual mode does show manuel, and cannot be changed - German sense of humour ?? Coolant temperature should be 90'C and unless there is a problem somewhere it shouldn't deviate from that by more than a few degrees. £400 off for the clutch sounds like a deal to me [ ][ ]

I guess if you are not going to do loads of miles it sounds like a good car for you, but if in doubt forget it, if its just by being unsure because it could be a dog then get it inspected if it has a clean bill of health then go for it. I always beleive when buying a car you have to spend a few quid on it anyway, if its a private buy or from a non dealer. I slept on it too thinking how damm cheap it is. I paid over £30.000 for mine 6 years ago ok it was a one owner, 32K car but just goes to show you. Phil

Coolant temp should be 80c not 90c

Oops yes 80'C is normal running temp. I've been spending too much time in the family VW wagon !!

Inspection time then? The temp I thought was 90, couldn't be totally sure as the guage was a little bit passed 80, there was no 90 marker though, I think the next was 100+ which was way off from where it was so I assumed 90ish.

Sounds very good - don't wait too long or it'll be gone! Don't worry about the price seeming low - they have dropped a lot over the last year. I was offered 12,500 p/ex for mine (2000 model, C2, 68,000 miles) last month against a 997 :-(

Do you think the water cooled early 996's will continue to drop? I thought they had reached as low as they were going to get now. I just called the last place that saw the car which was Northway Porsche in Reading, they said it was a 24k service in march this year, it included coils, plugs, all fluids, new front tyres (P-zeros), driveshaft oil seals and a few other bits. They also saw it in May for a new waterpump and replacement drive belt and MOT'd it. All recomendations on the report were done. The chap did say that the interior colour would hurt the resale value though, and he hoped it was 'cheap enough' at that mileage with that interior.... I must stress he was very helpful though.

Man you're cautious aren't you! Not a bad thing but unless you don't want it either buy it or [8|]move on....... [8|]

The strange thing is, the cheap price has led me to be more suspicious than paying more - figure the logic out there. By tomorrow evening you will know if it's mine.

If Northway have seen it twice in the last 12 motnhs and given it a clean bill of health then rest easy - they know their 996s !

Their prices seem very good as well, aprox 650 to replace the clutch!

From what you've said Steve, I'm very tempted to go and look at it myself!! [ ] You had better be quick!

. [/quote] Its not your imagination, it did say Manuell and probably does so round the world. And no it cannot be changed. Good luck with the inspection, it does sound like a decent car.

Well, here's hoping it comes out ok! Ive got quite used to the idea of owning this car, and keep thinking that I want to drive it again. A quick related question, is it ok to keep the battery on an optimate 12v digital optimiser when in the garage? Oh and that is odd about the manual thing, but it won't worry me

If the car is being used infrequently or for limited mileage then a battery conditioner prrmanentlyhooked up is a good thing to keep the battery in good condition and to prevent premature failures. I learnt the hard way,I used my car daily for two years then hardly at all and within 10 months the battery failed. It sits connected to a ctek conditioner now!

The battery did seem low, perhaps it can be saved. I have an optimate 4 that I use for my bikes, just trying to read the specification to see if it will be suitable.

Buying the car and taking it for a nice long drive will probably do the trick![ ] Then use a conditioner if you're not driving it often...........

the first thing I shall do if I do get it is give it a complete going over in the garage, feed / clean the leather, shampoo the carpets, polish up all the interior and autoglym the outside. I'll be getting the waxoyl out on the wishbones etc as well.

You started off by saying how cheap it is & how its made you cautious. So pay Peter Morgan to inspect it correctly, even after that you will still be saving.

Hi Guys. Went to see her last night, had another 40 min test drive. I mixed urban with some extra-urban driving. The wife gave all of the electrics the once over again, the clutch doesn't feel as bad as I remembered, I think it's because I noted it on the first drive I kept thinking it through in my head to probably be worse than it was. I've budgeted for a new one anyway if and when it needs doing. The battery wasn't great, and it really didn't charge much either, but then it was dark, I had the lights, wipers, rear window heater, normal heater on etc, and needless to say as mentioned the wife testing everything so no surprise there. I'm prepared to put it on the optimiser and buy a new one if need be anyway. Other than this she ran faultless, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. The wife even had a brief test. I've left a deposit and subject to arranging a once over with Porsche in the week she should be mine for next weekend.... I'm not sure what else can be said at this stage other than thanking you all for your opinions, advice and interest in this journey over the past week- things have happened much quicker than I expected. Thanks, Steve

You better be prepared to have a considerably larger budget for running a Porsche than to buy a new battery if need be. If things go wrong, which they inevitably will to some degree as all cars do, they cost....and they are not cheap. Just remember that and go into it knowing this with eyes wide open. You should always be budgeting a figure each year for normal wear and tear maintenance and then add some for the unexpected. However good it is now its still a 12 year old car with 110,000 miles on the clock.... Good luck and enjoy the purchase, make sure you drive the damn thing and dont just wash it and put it back in the garage!!

I think the costs should be comparible to my Z32 I would imagine parts wise.. I spent around 7.5 on maintenance over three years on the Z with the autobox, new turbos, exhaust, plenum, top end rebuild etc. Tyres were the same size too etc, and at around 15mpg I was forever in a gas station with it as my daily driver, so I'm not unfamiliar with running high maintenance cars. I've not gone into this lightly as you can see with the research I have done on this car before buying. I've also called around a lot of the indi's and OPC's and compiled a spreadsheet of various costs from servicing to an aproximate cost on an engine rebuild or exchange by hartech. I'm already going into this being cautious, with the clutch replacement and battery in mind as a starting point, and with the past few invoices totalling a fair bit, it's good to know a lot has been replaced already, it's clearly been looked after but as you say it's obviously at that mileage or age where things will no doubt need to be replaced ongoing, but then regardless of mileage I suppose to some degree that happens to any car - I just had to replace the cam belt (well all three of them) on my daily driver which was over £1200.00, so some costs by comparison seem very reasonable with the porsche (i'm not doubting some will be more too!). At the end of the day, it is a car I have always wanted, and instead of throwing money away on cars that I have for the sake of it I would rather invest it in the 911. I do have comitments though granted with our home improvents etc, and will have to prioritise my spending, but I plan on looking after her and setting some money aside each month in a fund for her. She is a spare car after all, and will see little use, so hopefully she will stay in the condition she is now without a lot more wear and tear. Thanks for your comments, it's appreciated though, and yes I hope I do enjoy her Cheers, Steve

well done Steve, hope all goes according to plan in the week and she's yours next weekend

Well done & I'm sure you wont have too many problems, sounds as though this car has been well cared for over the years so forget the mile's. [ ]

Thanks again guys

If there are £5k Boxsters around, why not £6k 996's in the next couple of years? I have no doubt my 996T will be worth in the teens in a couple of years too. There were far too many built for them to have rarity value. The upside is that there are some bargains out there for buyers like Steve. There are also some money pits, so they have to be careful. As for adding PCM to a '98 996, don't bother. PCM1 is an antiquity, and you would be far better off fitting a modern double-DIN system. Don't worry about the "originality" argument. I believe it would make the car more saleable.

Or if you can do without the flowery big screen, just fit a single DIN Becker traffic pro head unit. Matches the rest of the interior.

Well, she is mine! Have done a little over 100 miles of mixed driving since Friday night, and she is running fine, no fault codes, no major issues. A few small things to do: New rear ARB bushes, they aren't cracked but are showing signs of wear - planning on just getting a complete new ARB with poly bushes New battery - on order Clutch is actually fine, the pedal is a little stiff, will see how it fairs until the next due service in March Other than that, very pleased with the old girl Will just have to see how she fairs between now and the next inspection. Cheers, Steve

Health to enjoy it. Now show us some pics. If all goes well the rear ARB bushes take 5 minutes a side to do.