Centre Gravity + Cayman R - Page 3 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

So, read a lot of stuff about getting the Geo set up correctly and these guys are down the road from me; http://www.centregravity.co.uk/ So, as a complete Porsche noob, what can they do that'll be of benefit to me? I don't track the car but obviously want it to be set up to be the best it can be! Any advice appreciated!

I use Chris, he spent 11 hours on my car a few months ago we did not leave till 8pm He goes the extra mile and enjoys what he does. But just for your needs you could drop it in Porsche lei or northamton Motorsport and just add a bit of front camber and reduce the front toe a bit, keep the rear stock, and add some front 7mm spacers each side. Imo you are better off just buying some PSS.

mrdemon said: I use Chris, he spent 11 hours on my car a few months ago we did not leave till 8pm He goes the extra mile and enjoys what he does. But just for your needs you could drop it in Porsche lei or northamton Motorsport and just add a bit of front camber and reduce the front toe a bit, keep the rear stock, and add some front 7mm spacers each side. Imo you are better off just buying some PSS. So unless you are tracking the car, what they offer is overkill? Just had the new tyres fitted to the rear today, gonna get a few bits of kerbing sorted soon too, assumed it would be best to ensure after the wheels had been on and off, that they were at least all pointing in the right direction, to prevent uneven tyre wear etc....

Over kill yes as it's £300min charge for a basic geo.

mrdemon said: Over kill yes as it's £300min charge for a basic geo. Wow. That's quite some price!

mrdemon said: I use Chris, he spent 11 hours on my car a few months ago we did not leave till 8pm He goes the extra mile and enjoys what he does. But just for your needs you could drop it in Porsche lei or northamton Motorsport and just add a bit of front camber and reduce the front toe a bit, keep the rear stock, and add some front 7mm spacers each side. Imo you are better off just buying some PSS. Blimey, you would imagine after all these years he would have been able to reduce the hours it' takes

Cerberaherts said: mrdemon said: Over kill yes as it's £300min charge for a basic geo. Wow. That's quite some price! I'd say it's a bit more than a basic geo for your money. It includes : 1. Test drive of car in arrival set up, identify any suspect dampers etc. 2. Comprehensive inspection of tyres and all suspension components. 3. Comprehensive discussion and explanations of different set up options available to produce different handling characteristics. 4. Adjustments made as required - provided all components in good condition etc. 5. Test drive with new set up. 6. Further adjustments and test drives if required until customer happy. This is not for everybody, and as has been said any decent place should be able to carry out a basic geo for less. I've had various cars done at CG for road use, and found the adjustments done and whole experience well worth the money for me.

mrdemon said: I use Chris, he spent 11 hours on my car a few months ago we did not leave till 8pm He goes the extra mile and enjoys what he does. But just for your needs you could drop it in Porsche lei or northamton Motorsport and just add a bit of front camber and reduce the front toe a bit, keep the rear stock, and add some front 7mm spacers each side. Imo you are better off just buying some PSS. MrDemon is fixated with understeer - and yes road cars are generally set up with a bit of (safe) understeer. Before going down the route he suggests you need to be sure that your car has more understeer than YOU like with whatever wheels/tyres/suspension options your car has. The one size fits all approach he recommends is - to say the least - unscientific.

Sarnie said: ?.......want it to be set up to be the best it can be...... I think before you go any further, you need to understand and clarify what you mean by this. Every adjustment is a compromise between multiple things. You can increase toe in a little to sharpen the steering for example but you will make the car more nervous in a straight line. And increase tyre wear.

Sarnie said: So, read a lot of stuff about getting the Geo set up correctly and these guys are down the road from me; http://www.centregravity.co.uk/ So, as a complete Porsche noob, what can they do that'll be of benefit to me? I don't track the car but obviously want it to be set up to be the best it can be! Any advice appreciated! Here's my advice. Ignore the likes of Mr Demon, he's fickle. He's been on here extolling the virtues of other alignment shops and telling everyone on here that a a geo can be done in 20 minutes for thruppence ha'ppeny. Now he tells us he's spent 11 hours with Chris setting up his car ...... ! ! The PH search facility is working currently (a rare occurrence in my experience) do a search for Center Gravity (or Centre Gravity) read what a larger cross section have gained from their experiences at CG, then form your own decision as to whether you think having your car set up by Chris is a worthwhile expense. I maintain it is, as without wishing to sound patronising, you give the impression you're a novice in these matters. No harm in that, we all have to start somewhere. A day spent with Chris will give you a great insight into how suspension set up influences the way your car handles, rides, grips (or doesn't grip !) steers etc. There are plenty of good alignment shops out there, but Chris does go the extra mile, his attention to detail when it comes to set up is up there with the very best. He'll also be willing to spend time chatting to you and explain to you why he's adjusting the various parameters, and what the outcome of those set up adjustments will be. The other benefit of taking the car to Chris is that he'll fully assess the condition of the car's suspension fully, but he won't carry out any adjustments unless it's in tip top condition. If you have the car set up to factory specifications, you'll leave CG with a car set up as the factory intended, not "close enough". Rest assured you will notice the difference. Having had the car set up properly you'll have a baseline setup, you can drive it for a few months and see if you start to find it's limits (the fabled understeer that Demon bangs on about incessantly.....) You may then decide you want to tweak things a bit, or you may decide the stock settings suit your needs fine. At this stage, you do NOT want to be asking Chris to put a "fast road" set up on the car, neither do you need to start bolting spacers on, or swapping tyres for something grippier or "better". HTH

mollytherocker said: You can increase toe in a little to sharpen the steering for example but you will make the car more nervous in a straight line. And increase tyre wear. Don't you mean reduce toe-in?

mollytherocker said: I think before you go any further, you need to understand and clarify what you mean by this. Every adjustment is a compromise between multiple things. You can increase toe in a little to sharpen the steering for example but you will make the car more nervous in a straight line. And increase tyre wear. Exactly - and it depends on what you intend to do with the car. A car set up to work well on the track (which will generally be smooth) can be a real (unpleasant) handful on a bumpy rutted B road - and might not be comfortable at high speeds on the motorway either.

Slippydiff said: Here's my advice. Ignore the likes of Mr Demon, he's fickle. He's been on here extolling the virtues of other alignment shops and telling everyone on here that a a geo can be done in 20 minutes for thruppence ha'ppeny. Now he tells us he's spent 11 hours with Chris setting up his car ...... ! ! The PH search facility is working currently (a rare occurrence in my experience) do a search for Center Gravity (or Centre Gravity) read what a larger cross section have gained from their experiences at CG, then form your own decision as to whether you think having your car set up by Chris is a worthwhile expense. I maintain it is, as without wishing to sound patronising, you give the impression you're a novice in these matters. No harm in that, we all have to start somewhere. A day spent with Chris will give you a great insight into how suspension set up influences the way your car handles, rides, grips (or doesn't grip !) steers etc. There are plenty of good alignment shops out there, but Chris does go the extra mile, his attention to detail when it comes to set up is up there with the very best. He'll also be willing to spend time chatting to you and explain to you why he's adjusting the various parameters, and what the outcome of those set up adjustments will be. The other benefit of taking the car to Chris is that he'll fully assess the condition of the car's suspension fully, but he won't carry out any adjustments unless it's in tip top condition. If you have the car set up to factory specifications, you'll leave CG with a car set up as the factory intended, not "close enough". Rest assured you will notice the difference. Having had the car set up properly you'll have a baseline setup, you can drive it for a few months and see if you start to find it's limits (the fabled understeer that Demon bangs on about incessantly.....) You may then decide you want to tweak things a bit, or you may decide the stock settings suit your needs fine. At this stage, you do NOT want to be asking Chris to put a "fast road" set up on the car, neither do you need to start bolting spacers on, or swapping tyres for something grippier or "better". HTH Good advice.

not really lol as you cannot set a stock parted car up for good track work, why spend £300 to get an extra 0.5 degree of camber up front ? any good shop can check your geo and add 1/2 a degree for about £100. Front track helps, the 981 has a bigger front track the GT3 has a bigger front track again and the 991 RS has a massive front track over the GT3. So if you are going to get the front changed you may as wel fit 2 £25 spacers up front, it does make the car loads better. Slippy after a month off, has gone back to following me about slagging me off again this last week. (again noted past midnight on other threads so prob drugged up) I use other shops for basic checks even Porsche OPC, but as I was changing arms ,engine mounts etc and wanted to get the most from my car I went to see chris. to say get a stock one for £300 try it then go back and tweek it for another £300 would be stupid, If one has bought a Cayman R one expects the owner will want it to work in a more focused way. Edited by mrdemon on Saturday 20th December 11:05

Sandy59 said: I'd say it's a bit more than a basic geo for your money. It includes : 1. Test drive of car in arrival set up, identify any suspect dampers etc. 2. Comprehensive inspection of tyres and all suspension components. 3. Comprehensive discussion and explanations of different set up options available to produce different handling characteristics. 4. Adjustments made as required - provided all components in good condition etc. 5. Test drive with new set up. 6. Further adjustments and test drives if required until customer happy. This is not for everybody, and as has been said any decent place should be able to carry out a basic geo for less. I've had various cars done at CG for road use, and found the adjustments done and whole experience well worth the money for me. It's a hefty price but I guess You get what you pay for. It seems you're not just getting a basic geo here. Might have to get my Cerbera up there once it's new suspension goes on..

Centre of Gravity have a great reputation. Other companies can also do a very good job --- I use Track Torque in Tockwith (North Yorkshire). It is correct that you will struggle to get more than -.75 on the front and -2 on the rear for a very nice fast road set-up which works very well with MPSupersports, particularly in the wet. All else stock. More than that requires significant surgery --- which is where the GT4 should come in. To put this in perspective in terms of driving style, I replace all four tyres at once. But I remember once discovering that damaged suspension had been dialled out on a previous geo set-up --- which was very well worth correcting on a comprehensive check and geo set-up ...

Sarnie said: I don't track the car but obviously want it to be set up to be the best it can be! mrdemon said: as you cannot set a stock parted car up for good track work, why spend £300 to get an extra 0.5 degree of camber up front ? Which bit of Sarnie's quote is it you're struggling with ? mrdemon said: Front track helps, the 981 has a bigger front track the GT3 has a bigger front track again and the 991 RS has a massive front track over the GT3. I don't doubt it, but I think you'll find the factory GT3 RS wide track set up amounts to more than chucking a pair of spacers on the front. mrdemon said: So if you are going to get the front changed you may as wel fit 2 £25 spacers up front, it does make the car loads better. Ah yes, loads better. Not in the least bit subjective, as ever. mrdemon said: Slippy after a month off, has gone back to following me about slagging me off again this last week. (again noted past midnight on other threads so prob drugged up) LOL. No one does drugs before midnight in "your" world then ? mrdemon said: I use other shops for basic checks even Porsche OPC, but as I was changing arms ,engine mounts etc and wanted to get the most from my car I went to see chris. So previously you haven't wanted to get the best from your car ? Hmmm, interesting. mrdemon said: to say get a stock one for £300 try it then go back and tweek it for another £300 would be stupid, If one has bought a Cayman R one expects the owner will want it to work in a more focused way. Yep, so stupid that plenty of people do exactly that. As ever, you speak on behalf of everyone on the basis they've the same mindset as you. They don't. Fortunately.

mrdemon said: not really lol as you cannot set a stock parted car up for good track work, why spend £300 to get an extra 0.5 degree of camber up front ? any good shop can check your geo and add 1/2 a degree for about £100. Front track helps, the 981 has a bigger front track the GT3 has a bigger front track again and the 991 RS has a massive front track over the GT3. So if you are going to get the front changed you may as wel fit 2 £25 spacers up front, it does make the car loads better. Slippy after a month off, has gone back to following me about slagging me off again this last week. (again noted past midnight on other threads so prob drugged up) I use other shops for basic checks even Porsche OPC, but as I was changing arms ,engine mounts etc and wanted to get the most from my car I went to see chris. to say get a stock one for £300 try it then go back and tweek it for another £300 would be stupid, If one has bought a Cayman R one expects the owner will want it to work in a more focused way. Edited by mrdemon on Saturday 20th December 11:05 Generally, a wider front track is a very clumsy way of attempting to reduce understeer. With the GT3 it is only done to counter the pasm. If it were on passives, it wouldn't need a wider front end but thats another story. A more effective way to counter it would be to fit some after market top mounts which will unlock the car's potential far more than messing about with the track which can lead to other problems.

On saying that, I think that your point about not necessarily needing a high end geo on a road only car has some merit

I would say read up on what you want to achieve first, there are lots of posts on planet 9 where guys give various geo settings for your model. Then have a local Indy do it. I spoke to cg about my cayman s ( I have pss9 and h and r arb) and I've no doubt they know there stuff, but there prices including all the time for 'discussion' and 'test drives' ended up in a truly eye watering quote. Not for me!

I think its a bit naive thinking a small geo workshop can improve significantly on what Porsche decided was the best setup when it comes to all-round usability. As somebody else said, you are always giving something up for an improvement in a particular area. Personally I think the car is fine enjoyed as Porsche intended, after all if its good enough for Walter Rorhl, its good enough for me... Im probably not going to start fiddling around with the setup and geo on mine, not because I don't think it can be improved - Im sure it can. I just happen to think there is a good chance it will end up worse quite a few areas as well, being a road car its all about balance for me. Snap oversteer and nervous highway behavior is just not something I want in a 4-season allrounder. Edited by Vacationboy on Sunday 21st December 00:26

It's very easy to get some extra front negative camber on Boxsters. You just need to drill out the top mount slot a few mm. It takes all if 5 to 10 mins aside. I've had it done on both my Boxsters now. Centre Gravity or similar is great if you are a little obsessive or OCD. They are also good if you're thinking the car drives good but can I get a bit more ... but aren't sure how to get there. They will also talk with you to get an understanding of what roads you drive, how hard you might drive, what you like about the current set up, what you might like it to feel like etc then give you a set up that suits your requirements. I've had components fitted there as well as geo for both my Boxsters and have been probably 3 times in 3 years.

To the OP, Everything you do on the geo is complete waste of time if you haven't established a solid baseline position from which to work forwards from. And then decided what it is you need differently from this. You can read all you like and take all the opinions in the world about how handling/performance/feel are improved by doing X to Y in the suspension dept but none of it matters if you haven't done the first step. The thing with setup is that its a bit like ice cream flavours. Everyone likes different things and at different times. The situation with Porsche cars and ice cream flavours becomes a quagmire because: (i) Owners tend to forget they are talking about ice cream flavours, (ii) They tend to forget they used to like another flavour before the one they currently are in love with, and (iii) Though none will admit it,everyones ice cream flavour tastes ok. This is because the window of geo settings that work is actually quite small. What you need to do is take the car somewhere and get the geo done to factory specs. Pick who you like for this. An OPC can do it fine, so can CG, so can plenty of Indys. Once you have established that the car is accurate from this starting point, go out and drive the thing. Drive it as you normally would and in the places that you normally go and get a feel for how it drives. If you then feel that you would prefer it if it did something a little different, then at your next geo make a change to try and achieve it.

Chris got my TVR handling, best money I spent on the car by a country mile. I got far more improvement paying for Chris's time than I did from updating components.

mrdemon said: Over kill yes as it's £300min charge for a basic geo. It's not a basic geo but far far more and you are completely misrepresenting the great name and service that Chris has painstakingly built up. Apart from anything else, Chris will drive your car, baseline it, tease out any unwanted variables and then set it up exactly how you want it (rather than just implementing a geo from a list). After that, you get the road test to make sure you are getting exactly what you want. All this before we even get to how learned, inspirational and delightful he is as a person. An afternoon or day in his company is one of the genuine treats of Porsche ownership. Demon = trolling + a bit of dangerous google knowledge + ground axes etc.

jackal said: An afternoon or day in his company is one of the genuine treats of Porsche ownership. +1

jackal said: It's not a basic geo but far far more and you are completely misrepresenting the great name and service that Chris has painstakingly built up. Apart from anything else, Chris will drive your car, baseline it, tease out any unwanted variables and then set it up exactly how you want it (rather than just implementing a geo from a list). After that, you get the road test to make sure you are getting exactly what you want. All this before we even get to how learned, inspirational and delightful he is as a person. An afternoon or day in his company is one of the genuine treats of Porsche ownership. Demon = trolling + a bit of dangerous google knowledge + ground axes etc. only one trolling here is you ! O and slippy ofcourse but that's a given. Edited by mrdemon on Sunday 21st December 16:21

jackal said: It's not a basic geo but far far more and you are completely misrepresenting the great name and service that Chris has painstakingly built up. Apart from anything else, Chris will drive your car, baseline it, tease out any unwanted variables and then set it up exactly how you want it (rather than just implementing a geo from a list). After that, you get the road test to make sure you are getting exactly what you want. All this before we even get to how learned, inspirational and delightful he is as a person. An afternoon or day in his company is one of the genuine treats of Porsche ownership. Totally agree with this. I've used Chris to set-up several cars over the years (in some cases several times) and his service is as far removed from 'a geo' as you could possibly imagine. My current 911 (a 2010 Carrera S) has just came back from Chris's - where it's been for well over a month! I'll be writing-up the story of why it went there, what was found, what was done (and some rather interesting conclusions) over the next couple of days. I'll just make the point, for now, that the car was borderline dangerous and had it not been for Chris's almost obsessive attention to detail, a couple of serious problems would never have been found or corrected. (There's not a chance in a million they'd have been found - or even understood - had I taken the car to the local OPC, or the nearest local tyre fitters with a Hunter aligner). The causes of the car's misbehaviour were totally unexpected and shouldn't ever have been present in a 4 1/2 year old, 48,000 mile car. But that's for the full write-up......

Search the internet, many people have taken their car to Chris to sort where many people couldn't. There was one guy who spent years on his car trying different settings then took it to chris to get it setup before he sold it - it was so good he nearly kept it! Felt like a different car!

fioran0 said: To the OP, Everything you do on the geo is complete waste of time if you haven't established a solid baseline position from which to work forwards from. And then decided what it is you need differently from this. You can read all you like and take all the opinions in the world about how handling/performance/feel are improved by doing X to Y in the suspension dept but none of it matters if you haven't done the first step. The thing with setup is that its a bit like ice cream flavours. Everyone likes different things and at different times. The situation with Porsche cars and ice cream flavours becomes a quagmire because: (i) Owners tend to forget they are talking about ice cream flavours, (ii) They tend to forget they used to like another flavour before the one they currently are in love with, and (iii) Though none will admit it,everyones ice cream flavour tastes ok. This is because the window of geo settings that work is actually quite small. What you need to do is take the car somewhere and get the geo done to factory specs. Pick who you like for this. An OPC can do it fine, so can CG, so can plenty of Indys. Once you have established that the car is accurate from this starting point, go out and drive the thing. Drive it as you normally would and in the places that you normally go and get a feel for how it drives. If you then feel that you would prefer it if it did something a little different, then at your next geo make a change to try and achieve it. I agree, for a comparative learner a soft set-up gives a lot of confidence and accelerates the build of "feeling" for what the car will do -- the comparative roll becomes a reference point for "seat of the pants". Once you are more experienced, you have to make allowances for "unravelling the roll" in the transitions --- which is the reason why faster drivers tend to prefer harder set-ups. But driving a 911 is all about managing the weight transfer (and managing the roll transitions) --- which is the reason why the feel of the early 911 is so wonderful So I agree, you need also to understand yourself and what you want from a car. For example, in the very cold winter two years ago when we had -16C in North Yorkshire and the snow didn't clear for two weeks, I had a fantastic time in a standard MX5 .... And this is also the reason why track days ad driver tuition are the way forward .. for most. Good luck, and have fun on the way ... !

Vacationboy said: I think its a bit naive thinking a small geo workshop can improve significantly on what Porsche decided was the best setup when it comes to all-round usability. Given my recent experiences I think its more naive to assume that your car gets delivered from Porsche set up correctly!! Going back to Sandy59's list of things Chris does.. 1. Test drive of car in arrival set up, identify any suspect dampers etc. 2. Comprehensive inspection of tyres and all suspension components. 3. Comprehensive discussion and explanations of different set up options available to produce different handling characteristics. 4. Adjustments made as required - provided all components in good condition etc. 5. Test drive with new set up. 6. Further adjustments and test drives if required until customer happy. Its numbers 3 and 6 that you're paying for and crucially in number 6.. until customer happy and not "Its within Porsche's tolerances Sir - Pay up and F$$K off" which is what you'll get from your OPC

Steve Rance said: Generally, a wider front track is a very clumsy way of attempting to reduce understeer. With the GT3 it is only done to counter the pasm. If it were on passives, it wouldn't need a wider front end but thats another story. A more effective way to counter it would be to fit some after market top mounts which will unlock the car's potential far more than messing about with the track which can lead to other problems. who said I gave my car a wider front track to reduce understeer ? I fitted adjustable front lower control arms increasing neg camber and a stiffer rear ARB to get less under steer, I added front track to aid turn in. (top mounts is the cheap way to increase camber and act reduces front track) I moved the bottom of the tyre out not the top in, this also gives me more front track to aid turn in, fitting top mounts leads to other problems. you will note the 981 has a wider front track over the 987 car, the GT3 has a wider front track again and the 991 GT3RS will have a even wider front track when you get the figures over the 991 GT3!!!

mrdemon said: who said I gave my car a wider front track to reduce understeer ? I fitted adjustable front lower control arms increasing neg camber and a stiffer rear ARB to get less under steer, I added front track to aid turn in. (top mounts is the cheap way to increase camber and act reduces front track) I moved the bottom of the tyre out not the top in, this also gives me more front track to aid turn in, fitting top mounts leads to other problems. you will note the 981 has a wider front track over the 987 car, the GT3 has a wider front track again and the 991 GT3RS will have a even wider front track when you get the figures over the 991 GT3!!! why do you bother with any mods.. surely your money would be better spent on the latest snow foam & microfibre cloths.

Snow foam is for gayers, it's a non product which does not have a point ;-) but I do like a nice Microfibre cloth :-)

keep it lit said: mrdemon said: who said I gave my car a wider front track to reduce understeer ? I fitted adjustable front lower control arms increasing neg camber and a stiffer rear ARB to get less under steer, I added front track to aid turn in. (top mounts is the cheap way to increase camber and act reduces front track) I moved the bottom of the tyre out not the top in, this also gives me more front track to aid turn in, fitting top mounts leads to other problems. you will note the 981 has a wider front track over the 987 car, the GT3 has a wider front track again and the 991 GT3RS will have a even wider front track when you get the figures over the 991 GT3!!! why do you bother with any mods.. surely your money would be better spent on the latest snow foam & microfibre cloths. If I recall correctly, mrdemon uses Dove shower gel to wash his car.

mrdemon said: Snow foam is for gayers, it's a non product which does not have a point ;-) but I do like a nice Microfibre cloth :-) I've seen a pic posted by you on here (maybe one of those gay reflection jobs?) of your mx5-ster thingy covered in foam ???

mrdemon said: who said I gave my car a wider front track to reduce understeer ? I fitted adjustable front lower control arms increasing neg camber and a stiffer rear ARB to get less under steer, I added front track to aid turn in. (top mounts is the cheap way to increase camber and act reduces front track) I moved the bottom of the tyre out not the top in, this also gives me more front track to aid turn in, fitting top mounts leads to other problems. you will note the 981 has a wider front track over the 987 car, the GT3 has a wider front track again and the 991 GT3RS will have a even wider front track when you get the figures over the 991 GT3!!! Your really are wonderfully inconsistent! When I suggested that you should use a stiffer REAR arb to reduce understeer rather than the FRONT one you suggested you said and I quote "I do hope you had people set up you caterham, because if you think the solution to curing a Cayman of mild under steer is to fit a stiffer rear ARB then it's not great.. when the front tyres are rolling off the world." And for someone who goes on about geo your knowledge of geometry is woefull. If you move the top mount IN to increase negative camber you DO increase track, not reduce it. (The wheel pivots outwards about the track control arm) Quoting increase in track of 981 or GT3 or anything else. If it's done at both ends it will generally be a GOOD thing because it reduces weight transfer and increases grip - but there is no reason to suppose (unless someone has figures to prove it) that Porsche have chose to use more negative camber. But moving on and perhaps of general interest are these figures (for the 981 Boxster) I found elsewhere which throw some light on the ride/handling/understeer subject Below is a chart comparing the ride height spring rate and arb stiffness of the 3 optional suspensions. A PASM-equipped Boxster......and one with the new Sport Suspension PASM --vs-- Sports Chassis Front axle height -10mm -20mm Rear axle height -10mm -20mm Spring rate front +12% +20% Spring rate rear +15% +25% Anti-roll bar front +12% +22% Anti-roll bar rear +10% +46% Dampers PASM 'Sport Set-up' (passive) Note: all values compared with standard, non-PASM suspension The significant thing is that in both PASM and SS both the rear spring rate and rear arb stiffness is increased MORE than the front - so understeer should be less with either PASM or SS than standard. But SS should give less understeer than PASM because of the substantial increase in rear arb stiffness. I've not found any evidence that Porsche change the camber settings (though of course lowering the car will make the suspension at both ends more negative.)

bcr5784 said: Your really are wonderfully inconsistent! When I suggested that you should use a stiffer REAR arb to reduce understeer rather than the FRONT one you suggested you said and I quote "I do hope you had people set up you caterham, because if you think the solution to curing a Cayman of mild under steer is to fit a stiffer rear ARB then it's not great.. when the front tyres are rolling off the world." And for someone who goes on about geo your knowledge of geometry is woefull. If you move the top mount IN to increase negative camber you DO increase track, not reduce it. (The wheel pivots outwards about the track control arm) Quoting increase in track of 981 or GT3 or anything else. If it's done at both ends it will generally be a GOOD thing because it reduces weight transfer and increases grip - but there is no reason to suppose (unless someone has figures to prove it) that Porsche have chose to use more negative camber. But moving on and perhaps of general interest are these figures (for the 981 Boxster) I found elsewhere which throw some light on the ride/handling/understeer subject Below is a chart comparing the ride height spring rate and arb stiffness of the 3 optional suspensions. A PASM-equipped Boxster......and one with the new Sport Suspension PASM --vs-- Sports Chassis Front axle height -10mm -20mm Rear axle height -10mm -20mm Spring rate front +12% +20% Spring rate rear +15% +25% Anti-roll bar front +12% +22% Anti-roll bar rear +10% +46% Dampers PASM 'Sport Set-up' (passive) Note: all values compared with standard, non-PASM suspension The significant thing is that in both PASM and SS both the rear spring rate and rear arb stiffness is increased MORE than the front - so understeer should be less with either PASM or SS than standard. But SS should give less understeer than PASM because of the substantial increase in rear arb stiffness. I've not found any evidence that Porsche change the camber settings (though of course lowering the car will make the suspension at both ends more negative.) you are a bit daft, you wanted to fit a stiffer rear ARB 1st to reduce under steer on track to a car which had only -0.3 degree of front neg camber and was killing it's front tyres move along .... Edited by mrdemon on Monday 22 December 14:34

keep it lit said: I've seen a pic posted by you on here (maybe one of those gay reflection jobs?) of your mx5-ster thingy covered in foam ??? I did try a few times, what a pointless exercise snow foam is. you spray it on, leave it 10 minutes, take it off and your car looks the same as it did ! never used it since , want to buy the rest off me ? what a fun day being ill is, cannot work but time flies on here :-) Edited by mrdemon on Monday 22 December 14:37

mrdemon said: you are a bit daft, you wanted to fit a stiffer rear ARB 1st to reduce under steer on track to a car which had only -0.3 degree of front neg camber and was killing it's front tyres move along .... Edited by mrdemon on Monday 22 December 14:34 Clearly Porsche are similarly daft (on the 981) - that is the route they take.

mrdemon said: I did try a few times, what a pointless exercise snow foam is. you spray it on, leave it 10 minutes, take it off and your car looks the same as it did ! never used it since , want to buy the rest off me ? what a fun day being ill is, cannot work but time flies on here :-) Edited by mrdemon on Monday 22 December 14:37 ^Edit after posting. I thought that wasn't allowed ? ? Naughty mrdemon said: what a fun day being ill is, cannot work but time flies on here :-) A nasty bout of verbal diarrhoea ??? Here, have some Christmas spirit : Gargle a pint every half hour and be sure to swallow it. If the problem persists (highly likely) repeat as necessary. All the best. Hugs and XXXes from Slippy (in a rare moment of sobriety before midnight) ;-)

mrdemon said: I did try a few times, what a pointless exercise snow foam is. you spray it on, leave it 10 minutes, take it off and your car looks the same as it did ! never used it since , want to buy the rest off me ? what a fun day being ill is, cannot work but time flies on here :-) Edited by mrdemon on Monday 22 December 14:37 You mean that there was a time once when you were well ?

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Slippydiff said: A nasty bout of verbal diarrhoea ??? Here, have some Christmas spirit : Gargle a pint every half hour and be sure to swallow it. If the problem persists (highly likely) repeat as necessary. All the best. Hugs and XXXes from Slippy (in a rare moment of sobriety before midnight) ;-) harsh lol

Vacationboy said: harsh lol ... but fair

Weeeeell perhaps a tad but on the other hand MrDemon is hardly the new 300bhp/ton either. He contributes quite alot albeit in his own slightly biased way :-)

Nurburgsingh said: Vacationboy said: I think its a bit naive thinking a small geo workshop can improve significantly on what Porsche decided was the best setup when it comes to all-round usability. Given my recent experiences I think its more naive to assume that your car gets delivered from Porsche set up correctly!! Going back to Sandy59's list of things Chris does.. 1. Test drive of car in arrival set up, identify any suspect dampers etc. 2. Comprehensive inspection of tyres and all suspension components. 3. Comprehensive discussion and explanations of different set up options available to produce different handling characteristics. 4. Adjustments made as required - provided all components in good condition etc. 5. Test drive with new set up. 6. Further adjustments and test drives if required until customer happy. Its numbers 3 and 6 that you're paying for and crucially in number 6.. until customer happy and not "Its within Porsche's tolerances Sir - Pay up and F$$K off" which is what you'll get from your OPC Absolutely. Chris setup my Boxster and CLS AMG. Both were well out of manufacturer tolerance and Chris set them up the way I wanted them, for road driving. His attention to detail is incredible and he identified and resolved issues that my OPC (always highly recommended on PH) and two MB dealers completely missed. I am happy with the result and I would not go anywhere else. Merry Xmas too

I had my 993 set up by CG back in Feb. I splashed out on some PSS10s and Chris recommended some Eibach springs as mine is a Cab. Is their service expensive? Yes, but it's so much more than a geo. Worn components on mine were identified and replaced, suggestions were made, corner weighting was done, and we didn't finish til 8pm or so after test drives etc. Was I/am I satisfied with their service after 10 months, an 8k mile road trip round Europe and a track day? Yes. That said, should I have first had my car set up to factory spec on its original (fine condition) dampers with the replacement bits I had done to test it out before going a bit mental on expensive dampers etc? Probably. The work I had done was overkill, but in my defence I was doing a big round of upgrades with heart (rather than head) led tweaks and I wanted the car to be adjustable depending whether I was on road or track. Had I known I was going to apply some epic man maths 8 months later to buy a GT3, I would have spent less money and gone with B8s or Koni FSDs. With hindsight, my 993 is now firmer than I'd like for British roads, even on the softest damper setting, given that I now have a GT3 to shake me about. On a good smooth-ish road, the 993 is sublime, feeling so direct with great feel, and the confidence it gives is wonderful, on medium to high speed corners you have to be doing frankly nutty corner speeds for the road to get it to unstick, and when it does it's easy to catch and a hoot, no understeer in sight. On track, when dialled up, it's awesome. Realistically, I need to switch dampers again so it's about half way between standard and what I have now, hopefully keeping the lack of understeer characteristics and much of the feel that I have come to enjoy if possible. But, I want to enjoy a couple more track days in it first (it's so much fun pitching up with both a focused 993 and GT3 to play with on track!) before I put some more softness back into it. Good news is that resale on PSS10s looks pretty good My Center Gravity thread from Feb: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...