What am I Missing?

While I've been close to getting a 911 multiple times I've never quite got there. I do still regret not grabbing a certain 911SC years ago. Anyway I was casually browsing and came across one that looks like I ordered it except for PDK. Other than a few K more miles than I'd like the car appears perfect. The sales manager I've known for years tells me it is. Yet the car has to have been setting there since early March. What's wrong with the car besides PDK? Used 2012 Porsche 911 For Sale | What am I missing? What's wrong with this car? I hadn't planned on buying anything at the moment and wouldn't be bothering except it looks like it was made for me. Hopefully this isn't considered unsponsored advertising. If so sorry. Let me know.

The release of the 992 (face-lifted 991) is due in September Frankfurt Auto Show. Either buyers are expecting a big discount on this 991 or looking forward for the 992. 991 buyers in general prefer PDK and the mileage is not high at all IMO. I don't see these two factors affecting the resale of the car.

With a good (& independent) PPI, and a DME read-out the dealer should be happy to provide, I wouldn't hesitate to jump on it. You will find that PDK is highly addictive, especially if it has sport chrono & paddle shifters, and especially if you track it. Keep us in the loop- inquiring minds want to know. John

It's a returned lease. You want to buy a car that someone else rented? I say that only because people who rent things vice own them might take care of them much differently.

It's a CPO car with the warranty extending through 2018 I would guess. It appears that it is the first of the 991 cars in that split model year. It sounds like an okay deal, although I would think a Carrera S would be priced around the same price, so maybe slightly high for a non S. A lot of the used car market in 911 are former leases, just the way the market is because of the tax benefits of leasing over buying for some. I wouldn't let that deter me. My current car came off a 1 year lease and it hasn't mattered to me. I think it's worth a look. Pull the Carfax (for what that's worth) and see if the price is firm. It's a good looking car with a lot of options. Good luck.

That's a pretty broad generalization. I "rent" my cars. I treat them like I own them . . . . maybe better. :cheers:

I pulled up the details from the VIN. That looks like a nicely optioned Carrera S. I am wondering how you can figure out it was a lease return or not? Here is the report: 2012 Porsche The new 911 Carrera S Division: PCNA Commission #: 757313 Prod Month: 11/2011 VIN: WP0AB2A96CS120451 Price: $121,635.00 Exterior: Platinum Silver Metallic Interior: Black leather front seats Warranty Start: February 08, 2012 Additional Equipment 176 Sport Exhaust System 1H Platinum Silver Metallic 250 Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK) 276 Automatically dimming mirrors 342 Seat heating (front) 352 Porsche Dynamic Chassis Control (PDCC) 428 20-inch SportDesign wheel 541 Seat Ventilation (Front) 583 Smoking package 603 Porsche Dynamic Light System (PDLS) 630 Light Design Package 636 ParkAssist (front and rear) 640 Sport Chrono Package 651 Electric sunroof 658 Power Steering Plus 672 Navigation Module 680 BOSE® Surround Sound System 690 SiriusXM® Satellite Radio Receiver and HD Radio® Receiver 748 Electric folding exterior mirrors 762 Launch vehicle AJ Black leather front seats P07 Adaptive Sport Seats Plus (18-way)

Used 2012 Porsche 911 For Sale | Click on the kbb report, click through to the full carfax. Lease is mentioned in multiple locations.

Thank you.

If I wasn't retired, I'd sure pull the trigger on it. It looks very nice. I've bought a couple CPO lease return vehicles in the past, although not Porsches, and I have been damn near as happy as I was was with brand new ones. Maybe happier because I saved a ton of money.:cheers:

I think you may be incorrect. The model code is Model Code: 997120. Looks like a 997 in the 2012 split model year which makes them cheaper than the 991s for the same model year. I think that is the piece that the OP is missing. Mark

I see. I guess they don't check the facts. If there is one error, then I would have to assume there would be other errors.

Thanks guys. Looks like the consensus is that I didn't miss anything. Car is as good as it appears to be. It is a 991S. Rob admitted to the typo. Surprised they didn't fix it. These guys cherry pick the cars they keep, even more so for CPO, so off lease doesn't worry me. It was just having it set around for 3 months that raised a flag. A good car is usually gone before it's listed around here. This one is as clean in person as it looks in the pix. The guy who had it got a 2015. No waiting for the 992. I can try that as a bargaining point if I get that far. Didn't realize that the 992 was that close. They also know that I'm not really tired of my CS so will have to work to get me to move should be worth something too. I wasn't really planning on doing anything at this time when I chanced on this car so maybe the amount of work I have to do demoding it might also be worth something so it can go as CPO. Never know... I guess that leaves the PDK as the only question for me. Performance wise it's amazing. As an engineer I can appreciate the technological marvel of it. Driving though it's like manual shifting the slush box in my 535. Click a button and an indicator and the revs change. Sorta like a video game. PDK is just much faster and loads more efficient. I just have to figure out if wrapping a 911 around it will make enough of a difference for me is the $80k question now. I've always had manual sports cars before. Well unless you count a SMG M3 but I'd rather not go there. No comparison. I hated SMG and couldn't get rid of it soon enough. Thanks for looking. I appreciate the help. With luck I'll spend more time with the car tomorrow.

991.2 to be announced, supposedly, at Frankfurt, first US cars in Jan. This car has a lot of the right performance options (e.g., SPASM, PDDC, SC, PSE). I know of no serious problems. The only thing to look for if taking a test drive is the 2500 RPM stumble. See this thread and this . Seems to be the early cars w/PDK. I doubt it all cars but some. Enough for 500 posts of complaints.

And the dealer never mentioned it is an S. Perhaps he screwed up and unreported it to the base 3.6 911...

They're a big chain here. Only P-car store within a couple three hours though. Get different info levels depending on which way you get there. In person the cars an S. In pix it's an S. And on one website it's an S. And like others I decoded the VIN as a 991S. Seems like IT problems. So the price seems right with a bit of haggling of course. Les

The right car CPO at a fair price? Buy it! I often buy upscale cars off lease at 40% off new car price. Always dealer serviced and if it passes a PPI it's a sweetie. This car is you!

Thanks, I should have known no one here would try to hold me back. Trick is I'm effectively retired so it would be a bit tight financially and I have to get it right. No second chances. It is a bucket list item though and like I said it looked like I ordered it aside from PDK. Wouldn't have even thought about it otherwise. Still rather enamored with my CS but it's not a 911. I'd like to have both but that's not in the cards. There are things about both that I love. Of course if I were Hassaan I'd be after the '15 Turbo S they have in my colors. I should be able to look at the whole maintenance history on it and perhaps talk to the last owner. Also need to check with the local PCA on a good indie for a PPI. All the other dealers are 2-3 hours away. I've been doing my own work to long to know. And that's gone a bit to the wayside for health the last few years. Hopefully I'll be able to do an extended test drive later today I guess it is now. That should either add fuel to the fire or cool me off. Let you all know. It's past my bedtime. Les

I also debated leaving MT for PDK. I can only agree with Hassan that there are no regrets. The paddle shifters keep me engaged and the car is just fun to drive. I would not let that deter you. MT may be slightly more engaging but I, for one, don't miss it. One more thing, and this is purely speculative, as said above the 991.2 is soon to be released. Early photos have shown very little changes in exterior or interior but the big change is in the engine with the NA going away and the turbo coming in to play. I'm not sure what this might do to pricing, some think it will make the NA variants more valuable, some don't. While I belong to the latter group, it might be something to consider if you want the NA engine at that price.

Hi Hassaan, I think we're in total agreement. I don't get why some have to bash one model over the other. Down through the years all have had something to offer. The current lineup is particularly sweet. Yes the dynamics are different but both work well. I don't have a wife to justify any of this to. If I did I'd probably be driving a rusty Ford pickup but no worry there. Old engineers are expected to be a bit eccentric, no? A garage full of BMW's and Porsche's is just to be expected. All I have to do is have garage space (need more) and stay square with the bank. All, Took the car for a couple hour test drive. Overall I'm not sure what the best word is to describe it. Maybe excellent, sublime, sweet gets the point across. Like every other 911 I've driven it may seem a bit larger and rear weight bias when you just are running in city traffic but the car shrinks and the balance comes into its own when you push it. Different than a 987? Yes. Not as good? Definitely not. Don't have a clue why that keeps coming up on this site. The car works and works well. And the extra 50 or 60 hp is quite noticeable. The only quibbles I've found so far is there are two really small dents in the right rear wheel arch. They're on the crease so don't know if they can be popped or not. And PASM seems to be stuck in one position. On I think though the display changes with the switch. Either that or I'm numb. Couldn't feel any change going back and forth. The roads around here aren't smooth. The dealer is going to check and get back with me. Is it normal for the instrument panel to be a bit hard to read with dark sunglasses on? Might be something to add to the list. No sign of the stumble Chows brought up. Tried several times at different points to reproduce this. Just comes up smoothly from 2 to 3k rpm no matter how slowly I tried in 2nd and 3rd gear. Now the soul searching. As many has noticed my only real issue is the PDK. Running as a GT in city traffic and just interstate cruising it's perfect. Fast, smooth, and efficient. Couldn't ask for a better automatic. And I like how the steering wheel controls are set up. No question what paddle to pull regardless of how you've turned the wheel. I do agree the paddle shift sport wheel looks better though. But when I want to play its like the others I've driven. Click, the engine makes pretty noises, perfect rev match and the tach moves. Much like a video game. Just seems to be missing something when cruising the back roads. Just have to decide if the car is enough better overall than the others. No question it's better. Is it enough? Might be more than one beer involved on this one. . Be a lot easier if I could keep my CS too. For the recurring 997 vs 991 question the car I drove is the one you see in the photos. A 991S. I'll hopefully get a chance to talk to the prior owner in the next couple days. He's on his fifth or sixth 911. New one every three years. Currently has a '15 911GTS. And for Chows. I verified that this car had the symposer after driving it. It does as I suspected. The question was posed as a statement. As sound augmentation goes it's the best I've heard. Porsche did put some sweat into it. Overall it sounds pretty good. I've driven enough 911's over the years to have to have some sort of expectation of the sound. For some frequencies it seems like I'm hearing through a stethoscope and getting sounds I shouldn't at the drivers seat. In others it's just too much of it particularly with the windows up. Not really wrong or bad, just not quite natural. Comes off much more correct with the windows down when more of the exhaust note is blended in. So I indeed may have to put a sock in it. don't know why there was a need to make it louder. The car isn't exactly quiet in normal mode with PSE off.

Never felt any difference with PASM in my 987, and don't feel any difference with PDCC either. Maybe track bunnies can swear about them on track. But on the street, it's a waste of money so far. Check the contrast/brightness... It's adjustable. Sorry to add more dilemmas by throwing this in, if you can afford both the 981 & 991, then exchange both with a 2014 used 991 turbo. I'm sure it'll cost you the same sum. Don't take my word for it, test drive one and have a dashboard camera facing you to see your facial expressions. You won't believe it till you feel it. I enjoy the sound, but still open the sunroof to hear the exhaust louder. That is something gets taken from you in a 911, the 987/981 engine behind the seat is something I miss dearly.

The engine change is an excellent point. I don't have a clue how it will go either. Might be like the last air cooled cars or maybe everyone will go with the old adage that the best Porsche is the newest you can afford despite smaller displacement turbo engines. I'd prefer the larger NA F-6 personally. Something else to throw into the hopper. Decisions, decisions...

I didn't think to try speed bumps. Figured the busted up expansion joints and scab patched potholes would have been enough. Terry, CA roads must really have changed from when I lived in San Diego. They always seemed good compared to here in the snow belt. Even up in the mountains. I'll just have to wait and see what the dealer comes up with. I couldn't tell a difference from hard to soft. If I remember correctly a sensor failure can result in PASM going to hard as its fail safe mode. Don't remember if there's a message displayed for this or if it's just stored. PASM is an option my CS doesn't have and wish for after the fact. So no real seat time with it. The 911S had a very firm ride that resembled my CS. Not really having planned to change cars at the moment is making this a tough call. It would be loads easier if I was tired of or unhappy with the Cayman. This is just a pretty much perfect example of a car I've always wanted. I do appreciate the help. Driving a car, even many examples, isn't like living with one.

More on speed bumps: setting PASM to Sport will keep my 981 from scraping on certain speed bumps at a given speed. The difference also shows up as a sharper response to the initial inspect of the bump. I always try to hit the PASM sport button before a speed bump just in case.

I'll remember that if I get the car. I hate scraping the bottom.

Thanks for the clarification. I knew what it meant. Just surprised that Porsche went with an acronym having a possible negative connotation instead of something like PSASM. I'd always heard PASM was obvious too other than Hassaan's experience. Wait and see what the dealer comes back with. Rob was surprised that I couldn't feel anything too.

I forgot to ask. Oil pressure of around 2.5 bar just cruising at 2500 rpm or so is normal? Goes up to around 4.5 bar in Sport+ or when running the engine up. Idle was around 1.5 bar. This seemed low most of the time to me but I'm not used to a computer managed oil pump. Oil and water temp were both around 200 degree IIRC. Was a 90 deg day with A/C on.

Water temp is an idiot gauge. It will lock at 194 forever when it actually varies from 194 to 2XX. When its too hot, then you will see it rise. Oil temp takes time to get up to temp. If in Sport or sport + it takes longer. Drive in normal first to let the oil rise quicker. If driving on the street in sport +, oil temp does not rise as high as in normal. Oil pressure sounds right.

I just wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to look and answer my questions. In the end I don't think this is going to happen. Not due to the PDK which I suspect I could live with despite it not being as much fun as a MT. And yes I did find paddle shift to be boring or unsatisfactory in other cars but they didn't have a 911 wrapped around them. Actually my dealer is ending up answering what am I missing? Been since Saturday and they haven't been able to take 15 minutes to drive it around the block to see if PASM and the instrument panel lighting is working. Plus they're offering well below NADA rough trade in value. Even want to deduct what it will cost them to do the CPO inspection so they can charge more for it. Sure my CS needs 'major' work. Tires (age), TPMS sensors, hood struts and a brake flush. Something that would cost me maybe $2k retail to have done. Nothing close to the difference between their offer, NADA rough and NADA clean. I imagine this is based on some auction price guide. The car doesn't even need to go through the detail shop to show it. I did ask for a ball park on price to help me decide. Can't recall ever having a dealer raise the trade in from a ball park estimate in 40 odd years of playin this game, however. While I do expect there will be a 911 in my future it seems unlikely that it will be this one. Pity since this car seemed ordered just for me. Maybe I'll be able to keep the Cayman too. Thanks again. I'll let you all know if something changes.

Just in case anyone following this was curious I never did find out about dash lighting or PASM. When I bugged them about it all I got was PSM, traction control is fine. To which I replied, yes I know, there's a message displayed for it when it isn't. What about PASM and the dash lighting? I don't know if PASM has a displayed message or not. I do know it goes to hard as its fail safe. Haven't heard anything since. Don't bother returning my calls. All I can figure is I'm not being taken seriously. I've known the sales manager for something like 15 years and bought several cars there. They know I'll move if the deal and the car is right. Great way to lose a sale. Car is still there but I can't see doing anything with that attitude. Used to be their sales and parts dept were great. Service not so much. Guess it's contagious. Unfortunately the next dealer is about 3 hours away. I think someone is telling me it's not time to buy. Wasn't meant to be.

Guess this is as good as anyplace to ask. Still not sure if I'm ready to let go of the CS but I thought as long as I was looking why not see what there was new. Looking new means my options priority wise. So MT and Burmester. See what comes up and whether I like it. This turned out to be a decently optioned C4S in Dark Blue Metallic with Espresso/Cognac interior. Not my colors but I think I could live with them. Rather pretty really. Of course being a C4S it's rather more expensive than I intended. Car does not have SPASM/PDCC or Sport Seats Plus which I would have preferred. Now that I've set the stage the question is how does a 4S drive in comparison to a 2S? I'm not likely to get handed the keys and be told to be back by closing unless a used C4S would show up. My experience is that one can't get more than a gross feel for the car in a typical test drive. I prefer a neutral car that I can balance with the throttle. We're talking street so nothing crazy. Tracking is unlikely. Thoughts? TIA,