Would 8 owners and delayed servicing put you off? - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

I'm in the market for a 997.2 C2S. I want a manual but am coming round to the idea of a PDK. Possibly! So, I'm looking at a beautiful car at Ashgoods: http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2024032178... I'm still not sure on the PDK thing, but other than that, it ticks all my boxes (apart from the steering wheel, I'd need that swapping for a Sport Design item). However, given it's had 8 owners and 2 services in the first 5 years, would this put you off? Much as I hate resell talk, it's an issue I have to take into account... Decent (my spec - full leather, PSE, sports seats, preferably no rear wiper) manual 997.2s are like hens teeth, so keep waiting or seriously consider a PDK? The other one that ticks my boxes is the black manual C2S with an aerokit. Currently up at £60k, despite not selling at £56k and £54k a couple of months ago: http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2024012960... Opinions please...

Yes it would. But I’m fussy with stuff like that. Looking at 718s with 3 owners in 3 years but that to me, tells me that some of those knew they wouldn’t keeping it for long and probably looked after it accordingly. Eg drove it hard when cold etc. that’s just my perception/opinion however and I can’t even bring myself to thrash my leased cars when cold!

£40k to end up with something that doesn’t tick the box, transmission wise, will only play on your mind. You’ll be thinking, if only I’d waited - therefore wait it out would be my advice.

Wait to get what you really want.

The owners could put some off but the service history wouldn’t for me. 2020 to 2022 were the Covid years - lock down. No one was driving cars during that period and this car covered under 1k miles or so, so that’s not an issue. The price seems keen as well. Manuals are good but they’re long geared, heavy clutch and not that great in stop start traffic. For red lining mine, it’s really only good for 2nd and 3rd and then you’re in licence losing territory. Therese cars come into their own at 4k revs and beyond. The PDK should be just as good. If it ticks your boxes get it bought.

Puts some buyers off - as your reticence is showing. However, on the upside, it will have been prepped for sale 8 times, and fettled by 8 sets of owners (some of whom may have gone through everything on the car). As ever, view it and drive it, and buy on condition and how it feels on the road. It may be a cracker. If it isn't, walk.

I sopose if that car was two/three owner and FPSH it wouldn’t be that price would it...! 'Horse's for courses'

maz8062 said: The owners could put some off but the service history wouldn’t for me. 2020 to 2022 were the Covid years - lock down. No one was driving cars during that period and this car covered under 1k miles or so, so that’s not an issue. The price seems keen as well. Manuals are good but they’re long geared, heavy clutch and not that great in stop start traffic. For red lining mine, it’s really only good for 2nd and 3rd and then you’re in licence losing territory. Therese cars come into their own at 4k revs and beyond. The PDK should be just as good. If it ticks your boxes get it bought. Non-GT manual 997.2’s are shorter geared than the 997 GT cars, never mind cars like the 981 GT4 etc. If the clutch is heavy, it’s either worn, the hydraulic fluid needs changing, or the pivot points on the release fork are in need of lubrication, ditto the release bearing. If the car’s not nice to drive in traffic, it’ll be because of one of the above. The 997.2 PDK is first generation, and it shows. The 997.2 manual ‘box shift is up there with the very best, and you have the option of further reducing its throw with the factory short-shift.

8 owners yes, a delay years back with 30000 miles since no, honestly, someone tell what difference it has made to the car mechanically to date?

Discombobulate said: However, on the upside, it will have been prepped for sale 8 times, and fettled by 8 sets of owners (some of whom may have gone through everything on the car). That seems rather optimistic. With a high turnover car, I suspect just as likely it's been punted on after a short ownership with the aim being minimise the spend. You may have different experiences, but I'm always amazed at how little most people are willing to invest in cars like this. And with the (I'd suggest) ridiculous two year / 20k official service intervals, a fair few owners may well have bought and sold without investing anything in the car.

All the examples I have bought over the years that needed the most prep work to get them feeling factory fresh have tended to be the low owner cars, especially if the car has had the same owner for the last few years. I don't think this is because they don't care, I just think they don't notice when things slowly age, as the car gets a bit tired. We all tend to get a new car and then get it to how we expect it to be. Now, I am not saying a car that has had 3 owners over the last 18 months is also a good buy, that would set off alarm bells. But that car is coming up to 16 years old, many 1st owners only keep a 911 for 12 months or so, same with the second and often 3rd, then they tend to keep owners a but longer. But 8 owners in 16 years is not that strange. An average ownership of 2-3 years is not unusual on a car like this imho. But as this thread has shown, the UK has a real issue with the number of owners and even more so with mileage, while virtually nothing goes towards work been done. You still see 2 owner 50k mile cars that are 15 years old and will probably need £10k of work to get them feeling like new getting £45k compared to £30k for an 8 owner car with 90k miles that has just had £5k of suspension work, £3k of coolant and brake lines, £1500 worth of clutch, flywheel, transmission mount and new engine mounts. We seem to buy cars based on photos, number of owners and how many miles on the clock and not a lot else.

Feels like your trying to talk yourself into it… Been there, done that many times and always regretted it

Some good replies, thank you! Best to wait for a good manual then... If anyone has or knows one coming up for sale, please DM me or put a post here. Minimum spec MUST be: PSE, extended leather, <40k miles, sports seats. My nice to haves would be: PCCBs, no sunroof, no rear wiper, painted centre console, Carrera Classic wheels, LSD, sport chrono, sport shifter and the newer sport design steering wheel. Much appreciated all!

If it puts you off, or raises your interest, it'll do the same with others. I'm sure Ashgoods only sell decent stock but it'd always need to be one of the cheapest cars when you come to resell it as you'd be owner no. 9 & that does suddenly sound more than average!

If you have doubts ( and given the number of owners, I would), just don't do it. A Porsche is to be loved and enjoyed, not thinking OMG what have I done here.

I had terrible experience with Ashgoods buying a 997 that turned out to be a rust bucket underneath. And yes, 8 owners would pit me off.

Billy_Whizzzz said: I had terrible experience with Ashgoods buying a 997 that turned out to be a rust bucket underneath. And yes, 8 owners would pit me off. 997s are getting notorious for problems as they age in that regard, worse than 996's in that regard, the amount of steel and ally mixed makes them a nightmare, 991's are looking like they are going to be worse again. Hence why condition and documentation of work already done as they get closer and closer to 15 years old is so important. Unless you are not going to use it much yourself or are going to keep it forever and not care about the upkeep costs going forward. My mates 2010 needed a couple of new drop links recently and they had to remove the wheel carriers to get them out on both sides in the end. Should be a 30 minute job both sides, turned into a 10 hour nightmare. Don't presume because it is £45k for a 15 year old car it will be trouble free. I would say hold out for the manual you actually want, and not saying buy a 100k miler, but don't limit yourself to a car with sub 40k miles either, a car that has averaged 50 miles a week is not great on these imho. Buy on condition, condition and condition.

Jim1556 said: Some good replies, thank you! Best to wait for a good manual then... If anyone has or knows one coming up for sale, please DM me or put a post here. Minimum spec MUST be: PSE, extended leather, <40k miles, sports seats. My nice to haves would be: PCCBs, no sunroof, no rear wiper, painted centre console, Carrera Classic wheels, LSD, sport chrono, sport shifter and the newer sport design steering wheel. Much appreciated all! Why not then the other one you listed? https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202401296...

Ed.Neumann said: 997s are getting notorious for problems as they age in that regard, worse than 996's in that regard, the amount of steel and ally mixed makes them a nightmare, 991's are looking like they are going to be worse again. Hence why condition and documentation of work already done as they get closer and closer to 15 years old is so important. Unless you are not going to use it much yourself or are going to keep it forever and not care about the upkeep costs going forward. My mates 2010 needed a couple of new drop links recently and they had to remove the wheel carriers to get them out on both sides in the end. Should be a 30 minute job both sides, turned into a 10 hour nightmare. Don't presume because it is £45k for a 15 year old car it will be trouble free. I would say hold out for the manual you actually want, and not saying buy a 100k miler, but don't limit yourself to a car with sub 40k miles either, a car that has averaged 50 miles a week is not great on these imho. Buy on condition, condition and condition. Amateurs But that problem doesn't just affect 997's, it just as common with 996's too. My 2001 996 C2 with 68k miles on it, has been "properly" maintained, and every nut & bolt had been treated with aluminium paste in its past. Not one suspension component was seized when we came to replace it all last September. I did a complete suspension overhaul on 997.1 a few weeks ago, and both the toe and camber adjustment bolts on both sides on the rear suspension were partially seized in the bush sleeves. Fortunately they came out without too much effort. However the inner bolts on the front coffin arms were properly seized in the bush sleeves and had to be cut off, which necessitated dropping the front crossmember (but we were were planning on doing coolant crossover pipes anyway, so dropping the front crossmember made doing them far easier) Both front struts were seized in the uprights along with the anti roll bar droplink pinch bolts being seized in the uprights too. It made for a busy afternoon All the above completely avoidable with the diligent use of some aluminium paste ...

KittyLitter said: Why not then the other one you listed? https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202401296... Simply because it's over my budget. It didn't sell at £54k over winter, and on face value, with the spec, mileage and OPC warranty, you'd have to wonder why. And it's black!

Jim1556 said: KittyLitter said: Why not then the other one you listed? https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202401296... Simply because it's over my budget. It didn't sell at £54k over winter, and on face value, with the spec, mileage and OPC warranty, you'd have to wonder why. And it's black! The mileage might make people not want to put miles on it and preserve its low miles status. Nothing much sells in Winter even with £6K knocked off.

I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with a large number of owners. But it depends on how long each kept it for, 8 owners in 5 years is an average of 7.5 months each. That seems mighty unlikely for any kind of car. One of them must have liked it a bit.

Jim1556 said: I'm in the market for a 997.2 C2S. I want a manual but am coming round to the idea of a PDK. Possibly! So, I'm looking at a beautiful car at Ashgoods: http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2024032178... I'm still not sure on the PDK thing, but other than that, it ticks all my boxes (apart from the steering wheel, I'd need that swapping for a Sport Design item). However, given it's had 8 owners and 2 services in the first 5 years, would this put you off? Much as I hate resell talk, it's an issue I have to take into account... Decent (my spec - full leather, PSE, sports seats, preferably no rear wiper) manual 997.2s are like hens teeth, so keep waiting or seriously consider a PDK? The other one that ticks my boxes is the black manual C2S with an aerokit. Currently up at £60k, despite not selling at £56k and £54k a couple of months ago: http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2024012960... Opinions please... Some great advice in the replies to your dilemma. If we park our genuine love for all things Porsche any potential purchase, given the money you are talking about must, IMO, start off boringly with "buying with a view to resale the same day". Adopting this somewhat old fashioned mantra works to a degree. I have bought several 911's over the last 10 years, making mistakes along the way. The dream spec you wish for is only seconded by some cast iron must haves that meet your litmus test : Condition No. Of Owners Service History Any of the above don't meet your feel good factor then move along to the next car on your search. I'm generalising as of course there will be excellent examples that wont immediately marry with the above three but you get where i'm coming from.

Slippydiff said: All the above completely avoidable with the diligent use of some aluminium paste ... 100% agree, the point I was making is a car with 35k miles on it might be on original hardware or only ever replaced once at an OPC and would have been put on dry and could cause issues. After doing a complete suspension overhaul on mine 3 years ago today I have got another slight knock at the front. The top mounts, dampers and all strut hardware is brand new, fitted in the last few weeks, all arms are less than 3 years old. Got to find that tomorrow if I can. The only saving grace is, as you suggest, I put aluminium paste on everything so I know I won't have to fight anything. Still bloody annoying though.

I assume you reduced your torque settings accordingly too.

Number of owners and ancient service history wouldn’t worry me, provided that more recent servicing was done properly. Spec definitely would. You often have to be willing to make some compromises on spec, or else you’ll be looking til the end of time, but if I wanted a manual I wouldn’t compromise there. It’s fundamental.

Youforreal. said: I assume you reduced your torque settings accordingly too. Haha, I'm not putting it on the threads. It is the non threaded bits on these that fuse together.

Ed.Neumann said: Youforreal. said: I assume you reduced your torque settings accordingly too. Haha, I'm not putting it on the threads. It is the non threaded bits on these that fuse together. This ^

Ed.Neumann said: 100% agree, the point I was making is a car with 35k miles on it might be on original hardware or only ever replaced once at an OPC and would have been put on dry and could cause issues. Indeed, the notion that a sub 40k mile, 12-16 year old car will be devoid of issues lurking around the corner, is fanciful. And expecting it to come apart like a 4 year old 40k mile car, is even more so. Ed.Neumann said: After doing a complete suspension overhaul on mine 3 years ago today I have got another slight knock at the front. The top mounts, dampers and all strut hardware is brand new, fitted in the last few weeks, all arms are less than 3 years old. Got to find that tomorrow if I can. The only saving grace is, as you suggest, I put aluminium paste on everything so I know I won't have to fight anything. Still bloody annoying though. ARB droplinks, coffin arms or tuning forks then ...Did you use OE stuff during the overhaul 3 years ago ?

Slippydiff said: ARB droplinks, coffin arms or tuning forks then ...Did you use OE stuff during the overhaul 3 years ago ? Meyle and CTE. But also have adjustable drop links on the front so could just be them. I had them apart around a month ago, so need to check. When I first fitted them the nearside came lose after a couple of weeks. To be honest, now everything is new and the car is super quiet and tight, maybe if I hear the odd thing I start to think "Hmmm? what now?" It is only going over the ridge on my driveway, that is sharp to keep the gravel in, that I hear it. And, because it was so sunny I had the windows open and the music off, so maybe it is not a problem.

Jim1556 said: The other one that ticks my boxes is the black manual C2S with an aerokit. Currently up at £60k, despite not selling at £56k and £54k a couple of months ago: http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2024012960... That one has cropped up today now at Paragon... https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/16706546

I bought a 45k mile 2009 C2S PDK from Ashgoods just after Covid lockdown. It has 8 previous owners also. This concerned me a little, but the condition of the car and Spec, and the solid Service History from Porsche West London overrode the Owners, so I bought the car. The car is fully loaded with PCCB, factory LSD, hardback Sport Seats, Black with Silver Lip Sport Design wheels, amongst more. The 8 Owners actually was not the issue in the end. Please go and test drive a PDK and a Manual and judge for yourself! When I first bought the car I was not convinced, but I do love a project. The car floated at the front on dual carriageways. The steering was very light at speed. It felt like the rear of the car was going to come round on you in fast sweeping corners. And the PDK........ Standard PDK - great for cruising on Auto Routes and in traffic. But was not a scratch on later PDK/DSG gearboxes and software (coming from a mk7.5 Golf R). It's slow to shift (even in Sport Plus) and there is a noticeable delay from the pulling the paddle to the actual shift occurring, especially at low to mid revs. At redline, that's where it is fast. From the Factory, it actually shifts more like a Torque Converter full auto, than a semi manual. Very smooth with quite a bit of clutch slip. The later Software update from Porsche made this even worse (smoothed out changes with clutch slip, less aggressive/positive shifting) Now, after owning for three years - To remedy the PDK, I've had to modify the car substantially, something I always knew I would do regardless of the PDK performance. As with all my previous cars, I enjoy modifying to improve. I removed the Porsche Sport Design Paddle Steering Wheel as it has a PCB inside that checks that you are not attempting to downshift and upshift at the same time, causing a shift delay. It has been replaced with a Momo Mod7 Cup Wheel and Ive fitted MME Motorsport shifters mounted behind the wheel. The TCU Software has been remapped by NineMeister. This was the biggest difference to the PDK. They increase clutch line pressure and reduce slip. They remove the Torque Limits and the shift speed from the paddles. Finally fitted a Powerflex Gearbox Mount insert and I run 993RS Engine Mounts to remove any flex, and now the shifts are positive and the 'thud' in the back you get with the standard car is now gone The PDK is now finally performing as I would expect. Lightning Fast Shifts, less slip, no thud, no clutch judder at slow speed maneuvering. The oldest version of PDK gearbox and software (in a production car) is now 15 years old, and as you would expect is far away from today's cars. Separately, as the car is 15 years old now, it has just had a full suspension refresh with new B4 PASM Dampers, Powerflex Purple Bushed Coffin Arms, TCAs, Top Mounts, Bump Stops and runs H&R springs, setup with a Fast-Road Geometry by Copse Automotive. (DSC Controller is also fitted, among other engine and exhaust mods). What prompted this refresh was the Coffin Arms creaking over bumps, knocking from Top Mounts, perished boots and a PASM connector that had been crushed somehow, putting the PASM into limp mode intermittently. So, to summarize, am I still concerned about 8 previous owners? A little, but only if I want to sell the car, which I don't, as I now have exactly what I wanted. Its now an absolute pleasure to drive slow and at 10/10ths Please book those test drives!

Ed.Neumann said: Meyle and CTE. But also have adjustable drop links on the front so could just be them. I had them apart around a month ago, so need to check. When I first fitted them the nearside came lose after a couple of weeks. To be honest, now everything is new and the car is super quiet and tight, maybe if I hear the odd thing I start to think "Hmmm? what now?" It is only going over the ridge on my driveway, that is sharp to keep the gravel in, that I hear it. And, because it was so sunny I had the windows open and the music off, so maybe it is not a problem. The CTE stuff seems to pretty good, whereas Meyle's quality seems to be somewhat questionable these days. In my experience any adjustable ARB drop links will tend to be nois ier (even if only by a tiny amount) than the OE items.

KittyLitter said: That one has cropped up today now at Paragon. https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/16706546 Yeah, I saw that on Autotrader last night, still well out of my range. 99.9% sure it's the one I originally noted and IMO at least £5k overpriced. Look at what other Porsches (or other marques) you can get for £55k... veetwin said: Please go and test drive a PDK and a Manual and judge for yourself! I drove both back to back some years ago, and while I saw how good the PDK system is on track, I've always enjoyed the manual interaction more. For now, I've had a word with myself and will only be entertaining a manual car. The only exception to this would be a 991.2 GT3 RS (but that's never going to happen without a lottery win). Again, thanks all for the replies, some sound advice, which is exactly what I was after

My 997.1 gt3 had a similar number of owners before me. i didnt care as it was the spec i wanted and it had been well maintained throughout its life and was retailed by porsche who put their warranty on it. some 4 years on and its not fallen apart dont compromise on the spec especially if they are not that scarce. it will bug you especially when hte one you really want pops along the day after. if i was you i would wait a bit more