Late 997 or early 991 - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

As per the title, if you were to choose between a late 997.2 base Carrera PDK or an early 991.1 Carrera PDK , both coupe , which would you choose & why. I’m coming from a 996.1 manual coupe, but I’d be looking to use the newer car a bit more daily. Edited by jonny996 on Saturday 18th May 10:51

If PDK I would stick with the 991, especially if you want more of a daily.

PDK in a 991 better than the 997.

Also that's some seriously over eager mod work moving the thread.

jonny996 said: As per the title, if you were to choose between a late 997.2 base Carrera PDK or an early 991.1 Carrera PDK , both coupe , which would you choose & why. I’m coming from a 996.1 manual coupe, but I’d be looking to use the newer car a bit more daily. Edited by jonny996 on Saturday 18th May 10:51 Got to be the 991.1 all day. Just bought one last October. Lighter than the 997 with more space, no risk of IMS bearing issues, faster, louder engine wail thanks to the refined sports exhaust, wider track at the front so no more bobbing at the front at higher speeds and prettier (very subjective), and significantly improved interior compared to the 997. Basically the 991 is the last of the NA engines in the carrera model range. People like to complain about the move to EPAS. Here is the reality....the vast majority of Porsche drivers do not have a racing pedigree and will not track their cars so what they are in reality doing is parroting what motor journalists say. I have come from a Mercedes SL 63 with 600HP. The 991.1 is more capable, obviously better handling and surprisingly much better suspension damping than the SL (that really shocked me). As an all rounder the 991 is fantastic.

FrancisA said: Got to be the 991.1 all day. Just bought one last October. Lighter than the 997 with more space, no risk of IMS bearing issues , faster, louder engine wail thanks to the refined sports exhaust, wider track at the front so no more bobbing at the front at higher speeds and prettier (very subjective), and significantly improved interior compared to the 997. Basically the 991 is the last of the NA engines in the carrera model range. People like to complain about the move to EPAS. Here is the reality....the vast majority of Porsche drivers do not have a racing pedigree and will not track their cars so what they are in reality doing is parroting what motor journalists say . I have come from a Mercedes SL 63 with 600HP. The 991.1 is more capable, obviously better handling and surprisingly much better suspension damping than the SL (that really shocked me). As an all rounder the 991 is fantastic. The irony is strong with this one … The 991.1 EPAS was sub-optimal, that’s why Porsche refined and evolved it into something considerably closer to a hydraulic system in feel… OP, suggest you drive both and decide for yourself, rather than relying on the biased opinions from strangers on the internet. And whilst I hate to bring this back to values, a manual 997.2 will retain considerably more of its value than any 991.1 manual or PDK in years to come.

Slippydiff said: FrancisA said: Got to be the 991.1 all day. Just bought one last October. Lighter than the 997 with more space, no risk of IMS bearing issues , faster, louder engine wail thanks to the refined sports exhaust, wider track at the front so no more bobbing at the front at higher speeds and prettier (very subjective), and significantly improved interior compared to the 997. Basically the 991 is the last of the NA engines in the carrera model range. People like to complain about the move to EPAS. Here is the reality....the vast majority of Porsche drivers do not have a racing pedigree and will not track their cars so what they are in reality doing is parroting what motor journalists say . I have come from a Mercedes SL 63 with 600HP. The 991.1 is more capable, obviously better handling and surprisingly much better suspension damping than the SL (that really shocked me). As an all rounder the 991 is fantastic. The irony is strong with this one … The 991.1 EPAS was sub-optimal, that’s why Porsche refined and evolved it into something considerably closer to a hydraulic system in feel… OP, suggest you drive both and decide for yourself, rather than relying on the biased opinions from strangers on the internet. And whilst I hate to bring this back to values, a manual 997.2 will retain considerably more of its value than any 991.1 manual or PDK in years to come. I cannot argue with SlippyDiff’s argument about manual 997 being potentially of more value than a 991.1 PDK. I also agree about his comments about the EPAS - except this was the first offering of the EPAS and was always going to improved by Porsche as the model line up went on. However if you are looking at the overall drive the 991.1 was a big step up in terms of chassis etc. SlippyDiff is right - you have to drive them and decide for yourself....just like I did and chose the 991.

You can also update the EPAS map to the GT3 map, and that wasn't seen as a poor drive.

Sukh13 said: You can also update the EPAS map to the GT3 map, and that wasn't seen as a poor drive. Hi @Sukh13 - as a 991.1 owner please shed more light on this and where it can be done.

https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1281913-modifying-... On another PH thread, someone with a 981 had it done at GT One.

Sukh13 said: You can also update the EPAS map to the GT3 map, and that wasn't seen as a poor drive. Been waiting to hear that, (not that I hate STD steering but it’s not 997 good) hopefully my independent can to that.

When you drive them both, you will find they are significantly different cars. 991 is still a 911, but it's more refined (quieter, more relaxed PDK gearbox), rides better and feels more solid. It is a sports car, but is more of a GT and can do decent miles/daily dives very well. The tech had moved on a lot so it's just a more modern place to sit. 997 is a more raw experience, even in base Carrera trim. You'll find it a little noisier, suspension is decent but more firm and it just needs a bit more effort from the heavier steering. It's from an era when cars were more about the driving experience and less about NVH considerations. Tough one as a daily, I chose a 997 because I don't drive it every day, but as a 1-2 times a week car i'd go for the 997 every day.

jonny996 said: As per the title, if you were to choose between a late 997.2 base Carrera PDK or an early 991.1 Carrera PDK , both coupe , which would you choose & why. I’m coming from a 996.1 manual coupe, but I’d be looking to use the newer car a bit more daily. Edited by jonny996 on Saturday 18th May 10:51 drive both, depending on where you are there's probably a specialist - Ashgoods, 911V, JZM, Criffords or such with both - 991 PDK better than 997. I have a 997GTS manual so not a comparison, but the on-the-road footprint is smaller and feels it. It is less refined. more analog. weight diff on coupe is minimal and slightly in favour of the 997, but you'd never know on the road. You may want familarity in feel - if so the 997 is more likely your choice, or you may want a bigger sense of difference and the 991 will definitely achieve that. Both great choices either way

For comparison, directly from Porsche press releases: 2009 997.2 Carrera S Coupe: Length: 175.83 inches Width: 71.2 inches Height: 51.18 inches Weight: 3.208 lbs. (with PDK) 2012 991.1 Carrera S Coupe: Length: 176.81 inches Width: 71.18 inches Height: 50.98 inches Weight: 3,120 lbs. (with PDK) 991 is lighter and smaller (less height and marginally narrower, albeit longer by an inch).

I chose a 997.2 GTS over a 991.1 - it felts smaller and more raw. It was less insulated so felt fun at 60 rather than needing to always wind it up to licence losing speeds - almost like a grown up Lotus. The cabin reminds me more of 80s hero cars, rather than my Macan as the 991 did - I like the contrast. I expect I’ll do 1500 miles a year so definitely not a daily so I wanted something a bit different, but still useable. You might have different needs! I’m maybe quite extreme as I had a 992 GTS on order too and cancelled that as the 997 gave me all I wanted in a sports car (cancelled after an extended test drive). I figured the 80k difference buys me another whole car to sit with the 997, although yet to break that news to the committee

They're both old cars now with old car maintenance needs. On this aspect I imagine a 997 wins as a simpler car with less things to go wrong.

Personally, I prefer the 997 (the perfect looking 911 in my eyes). It appears smaller and more of a sports car and the 997.2 didn't suffer from the often-highlighted engine issues of the earlier cars. The 991's started to bloat a bit and are getting more into the GT territory. That said, if it's a daily then the 991 has a more up to date cabin and I'm led to believe the PDK is better too. If your option was a 997 manual or a 991 PDK then I'd go for the 997 but both PDK, then I'd probably opt for the 991. Both great machines either way.

991.1 definitely, especially if you’re look at base cars. The PDK is better, newer tech and an all round faster car. If I were to change my 997.1 I’d skip the .2 and go straight to 991.1

Specifically because your coming from the 996 generation, I would lean heavily towards getting the 991 but as others have said, go drive both: I was comparing in a similar way... I had a leggy 996 C4S and was deciding between a 997.2 and 981 Cayman, my budget at the time (about 2019) was about £30-35k at the time. That didn't quite stretch to a special edition 997 (like the the GTS series) but it was lower mileage 997 PDK cars. I looked at a couple and then drove a 981 Cayman and was blown away by the fact it felt like a much much newer design. I know a 981 isn't a 991 but the step change from 996/977 generation was too big for me not to buy the newer car.

I often see comments like drive both and see which you prefer, but how do people manage this in reality? 3 well known specialists i have tried have requested a deposit before any test drive.

JackReacher said: I often see comments like drive both and see which you prefer, but how do people manage this in reality? 3 well known specialists i have tried have requested a deposit before any test drive. In my experience if you're a genuine and serious prospective purchaser, most Porsche specialists retailing used cars will allow you a test drive (RSJ being a notable exception) If however you tell them you just want to test drive a car or cars for comparison purposes, they'll probably be less accommodating.

Slippydiff said: JackReacher said: I often see comments like drive both and see which you prefer, but how do people manage this in reality? 3 well known specialists i have tried have requested a deposit before any test drive. In my experience if you're a genuine and serious prospective purchaser, most Porsche specialists retailing used cars will allow you a test drive (RSJ being a notable exception) If however you tell them you just want to test drive a car or cars for comparison purposes, they'll probably be less accommodating. Unless the dealer has both cars in stock, it’ll be difficult to rock up test drive a car to see whether you buy it or another version elsewhere. They’d likely suggest you drive the other car first, there’s second. Post Covid, test drives are a thing of the past. A relic.

maz8062 said: Unless the dealer has both cars in stock, it’ll be difficult to rock up test drive a car to see whether you buy it or another version elsewhere. They’d likely suggest you drive the other car first, there’s second. Post Covid, test drives are a thing of the past. A relic. Utter nonsense. I pre-booked a test drive of a PDK 997.2 3.8S in January of this year with a long established, well regarded indy in the Home Counties. It was the second time in the last three years I’d test driven a car of theirs. I won’t disclose their name, but on both occasions the owner put a set of trade plates in/on the car and gave me the keys to the car and sent me on my way unaccompanied . This despite having never bought a car off them.

maz8062 said: Unless the dealer has both cars in stock, it’ll be difficult to rock up test drive a car to see whether you buy it or another version elsewhere. They’d likely suggest you drive the other car first, there’s second. Post Covid, test drives are a thing of the past. A relic. I suspect with the market on its arse dealers will start to be more accommodating for genuine buyers. Saying that I bought my last two unseen, let alone test driven - although I did know what I wanted.

Slippydiff said: I won’t disclose their name, but on both occasions the owner put a set of trade plates in/on the car and gave me the keys to the car and sent me on my way unaccompanied . This despite having never bought a car off them. I would love to know how that works with their traders insurance - what checks did they do on you before they let you drive off alone for that to work? (not doubting you at all btw)

Lots of miles in both and would go for the 991. Much better interior , less cramped and more modern electronics. I upgraded my 997 last year to an OEM more current PCM which certainly made it more current-basic stuff like AppleTalk and Bluetooth. The 997 is good if you get a manual but overall I prefer the daily driver experience of the 991. One item to be aware of is that there seems to be a bit less steering feel in the early 991. The electric steering is a tad more remote than the old hydraulic of the 997 though they improved that over time. Not a huge issue but just an observation.

991 all day long for the reasons mentioned above. A more modern cabin and electronics. It will feel way more special coming from a 996 all other things being equal

981Boxess said: Slippydiff said: I won’t disclose their name, but on both occasions the owner put a set of trade plates in/on the car and gave me the keys to the car and sent me on my way unaccompanied . This despite having never bought a car off them. I would love to know how that works with their traders insurance - what checks did they do on you before they let you drive off alone for that to work? (not doubting you at all btw) None whatsoever ! No request for my drivers licence, no request for ID/proof of address. They were left with my daily driver BMW on their car park ! though both the 997.2's I test drove were worth considerably more than the BMW ... As I said, I did pre-book the appointments. I was running late for the appointment in Jan, so out of common courtesy I rang to say I was running 20-25 minutes late. Maybe that stuff is all too rare and thus is more appreciated in this day and age ? I'm 60, and my boy-racer days are well behind me, I'm guessing experienced used car dealers get to know the difference between a genuine enthusiast/prospective buyer, and a time waster who just wants a brief thrash around in a car for sh*ts and giggles ?

Slippydiff said: 981Boxess said: Slippydiff said: I won’t disclose their name, but on both occasions the owner put a set of trade plates in/on the car and gave me the keys to the car and sent me on my way unaccompanied . This despite having never bought a car off them. I would love to know how that works with their traders insurance - what checks did they do on you before they let you drive off alone for that to work? (not doubting you at all btw) None whatsoever ! No request for my drivers licence, no request for ID/proof of address. They were left with my daily driver BMW on their car park ! though both the 997.2's I test drove were worth considerably more than the BMW ... As I said, I did pre-book the appointments. I was running late for the appointment in Jan, so out of common courtesy I rang to say I was running 20-25 minutes late. Maybe that stuff is all too rare and thus is more appreciated in this day and age ? I'm 60, and my boy-racer days are well behind me, I'm guessing experienced used car dealers get to know the difference between a genuine enthusiast/prospective buyer, and a time waster who just wants a brief thrash around in a car for sh*ts and giggles ? Firstly your BMW could have been stolen and given that you were driving their car, probably worth a few quid, what would have happened had you wrapped it around a tree, they would not have had a leg to stand on. You may not even have had a valid driving licence. I would not have done it and quite frankly even if the story ended well I think they were brave/daft at best.

All true, but fortunately all did end well

I have driven loads of cars on test drives on my own, I thought it was normal to do so. BMW asked to see my license the other week when I took an 540i out, but they gave me the keys and said to keep it to around 30 minutes or so if I could. I also took out a 718 Cayman S a few weeks back, local indi trader and they just gave me the keys too. I sort of know them and have bought from them before. They all have trade insurance and are covered for this.

Ed.Neumann said: I have driven loads of cars on test drives on my own, I thought it was normal to do so. BMW asked to see my license the other week when I took an 540i out, but they gave me the keys and said to keep it to around 30 minutes or so if I could. I also took out a 718 Cayman S a few weeks back, local indi trader and they just gave me the keys too. I sort of know them and have bought from them before. They all have trade insurance and are covered for this. Their insurers would not unreasonably expect the trader to at least have made some effort to know who it was that stole/wrote off the car before they drove off in it, in the example up above that doesn’t seem to be the case. I can see how assuming a driver has a licence they would be insured to drive a car, but the trader making a substantial claim on the policy might be another matter.

Always thought my 991 felt much bigger than my 997, apparently it’s not as much as I thought! For a daily the 991 is much more refined especially on the motorway, can’t comment on track driving as never done it in mine , but it’s probably the best road car for the money I think Sukh13 said: For comparison, directly from Porsche press releases: 2009 997.2 Carrera S Coupe: Length: 175.83 inches Width: 71.2 inches Height: 51.18 inches Weight: 3.208 lbs. (with PDK) 2012 991.1 Carrera S Coupe: Length: 176.81 inches Width: 71.18 inches Height: 50.98 inches Weight: 3,120 lbs. (with PDK) 991 is lighter and smaller (less height and marginally narrower, albeit longer by an inch).

981Boxess said: Their insurers would not unreasonably expect the trader to at least have made some effort to know who it was that stole/wrote off the car before they drove off in it, in the example up above that doesn’t seem to be the case. I can see how assuming a driver has a licence they would be insured to drive a car, but the trader making a substantial claim on the policy might be another matter. Why are you so hung up on traders' insurance?? Who cares! FWIW I've also been allowed on my own in test drives from main dealers. Jag, BMW, Porsche. This was during Covid mind, so slightly different. Anyways, maybe this should go back on topic. I've a 997.1 and have been considering what to do as its 18yr old and 87k miles. Continue upkeep, even while it looses value due to mileage, or sell now and get a later car. If I sell I'd go for a 997.2 C2 manual as basic as I can find one, low tax bracket too. The 991 leaves me a bit more cold - then again, have never driven one.

RiccardoG said: 981Boxess said: Their insurers would not unreasonably expect the trader to at least have made some effort to know who it was that stole/wrote off the car before they drove off in it, in the example up above that doesn’t seem to be the case. I can see how assuming a driver has a licence they would be insured to drive a car, but the trader making a substantial claim on the policy might be another matter. Why are you so hung up on traders' insurance?? Who cares! FWIW I've also been allowed on my own in test drives from main dealers. Jag, BMW, Porsche. This was during Covid mind, so slightly different. Not hung up about it at all, trying to learn something, I know how my traders worked so seeing if something has changed.

I have an very early 997.1 C2. Basic car with almost no options and a manual transmission. It is glorious and I love it! Just having driven it over the weekend for an extended time, I was surprised again, of how nice it drives, even on the way back on the motorway. In the past I have driven it to the S.o.F. and back and it is as good as a GT as it is as a sports car. But, If I'd buy a 911 today with your requirements, I would go for a 991. While I love the 997 shape, the 991 is a beautiful car as well. IMHO, for a daily 911 with PDK, if budget permits, I would go for a turbocharged 991.2. The NA flat-6 is glorious no doubt, and coupled with a manual gearbox it is a combination made in heaven on 996/7 chassis, but imho, the 991 is best suited to the great 3.0 turbo engines.

The problem with 991.2s are that there seems to be an alarming number of turbo issues...

Sukh13 said: The problem with 991.2s are that there seems to be an alarming number of turbo issues... Yes, indeed. But there is an easy-ish fix for it. Litchfield seem to be the place to go to. Much like the IMS bearing with the 996 / early 997 M96 engine. If caught in time, there is a fix for it. ETA: and should the Turbos have failed, this is the perfect moment to upgrade to some bigger GTS turbos Edited by Filibuster on Wednesday 22 May 16:21

Sukh13 said: For comparison, directly from Porsche press releases: 2009 997.2 Carrera S Coupe: Length: 175.83 inches Width: 71.2 inches Height: 51.18 inches Weight: 3.208 lbs. (with PDK) 2012 991.1 Carrera S Coupe: Length: 176.81 inches Width: 71.18 inches Height: 50.98 inches Weight: 3,120 lbs. (with PDK) 991 is lighter and smaller (less height and marginally narrower, albeit longer by an inch). Wow I didn't expect that Assumed 991 is bigger and heavier

Filibuster said: Yes, indeed. But there is an easy-ish fix for it. Litchfield seem to be the place to go to. Much like the IMS bearing with the 996 / early 997 M96 engine. If caught in time, there is a fix for it. ETA: and should the Turbos have failed, this is the perfect moment to upgrade to some bigger GTS turbos Edited by Filibuster on Wednesday 22 May 16:21 Litchfield have noted that the oil separator helps but doesn't solve the issue unfortunately.

ATM said: Wow I didn't expect that Assumed 991 is bigger and heavier Same here. It means it does fit in my tiny garage as well as the bike (with about an inch clearance, same as the 996). In my mind's eye they were 5 inches longer and 3 inches wider. Off to look for a 991 S Manual WRT the OP's question, I also have a 996.1, which I am considering swapping for a 991.1 (now that I have read this thread)

You know, I often pop into Porsche East London to look at their stock and gawp at the cars. There’s something about the 991, especially in coupe form (the targa is gorgeous) compared to the 997 that doesn’t look right. Regardless of what the specs are; the weight, the dimensions etc, the 991 just looks bigger, less cohesive as a design. It looks closer to the 992 than the 997 in person. As good a car as the 991 is and it is better than the 997 in every which way, but I think the 997 is better packaged and looks better. Looks are subjective, though.

maz8062 said: You know, I often pop into Porsche East London to look at their stock and gawp at the cars. There’s something about the 991, especially in coupe form (the targa is gorgeous) compared to the 997 that doesn’t look right. Regardless of what the specs are; the weight, the dimensions etc, the 991 just looks bigger, less cohesive as a design. It looks closer to the 992 than the 997 in person. As good a car as the 991 is and it is better than the 997 in every which way, but I think the 997 is better packaged and looks better. Looks are subjective, though. That's interesting as my views have evolved. I still think the 997 is the prettiest, but the 991 has grown on me since the 992 has been launched. I saw a 991 and a 992 side by side and realised they are quite close in outline. 992 looks more bulbous but in my eyes it's the same 996 to 997 journey. I wonder if the bones of the cars (991-992) are the same.

stuckmojo said: Same here. It means it does fit in my tiny garage as well as the bike (with about an inch clearance, same as the 996). In my mind's eye they were 5 inches longer and 3 inches wider. Off to look for a 991 S Manual WRT the OP's question, I also have a 996.1, which I am considering swapping for a 991.1 (now that I have read this thread) Whoah there cowboy. I assume the 997 is bigger than the 996. Again might be untrue but worth checking.

ATM said: Whoah there cowboy. I assume the 997 is bigger than the 996. Again might be untrue but worth checking. 997 is a smidge longer and wider (around 25-30mm in both directions from memory).

stuckmojo said: That's interesting as my views have evolved. I still think the 997 is the prettiest, but the 991 has grown on me since the 992 has been launched. I saw a 991 and a 992 side by side and realised they are quite close in outline. 992 looks more bulbous but in my eyes it's the same 996 to 997 journey. This happens with me all the time too In fact, I started a thread about this 5 years ago: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... With many cars, I really get to appreciate the looks when I see it's successor for the first time in the wild.

Having started my P journey with a 2001 Boxster, moving through 993, 996, 997, 991.1 & finally 991.2 I would say each iteration is a significant improvement on the last. (sounds obvious right?) 993 - (C2) pretty car but agricultural to live with. 996 - (C4S) booming road noise always annoyed me - and felt very light nosed at speed. 997.1 - (C2S) least reliable car (left me stranded a few times) and interior always felt cheap 991.1 - (C2) electrical gremlins which were never resolved by supplying dealer 991.1 - (C2S) great car - although only a year newer than my first 991.1 it somehow felt much better built. 991.2 (C2S Cab) - excellent car but did wet itself necessitating a new water pump. Quickest I'd owned but sold when prices went silly (so the only P car I didn't lose money on) Now have AM Vantage. Probably won't go back to Porsche as they're just too expensive now.

Discombobulate said: ATM said: Whoah there cowboy. I assume the 997 is bigger than the 996. Again might be untrue but worth checking. 997 is a smidge longer and wider (around 25-30mm in both directions from memory). Your wife told me 30mm makes a massive difference

maz8062 said: You know, I often pop into Porsche East London to look at their stock and gawp at the cars. There’s something about the 991, especially in coupe form (the targa is gorgeous) compared to the 997 that doesn’t look right. Regardless of what the specs are; the weight, the dimensions etc, the 991 just looks bigger, less cohesive as a design. It looks closer to the 992 than the 997 in person. As good a car as the 991 is and it is better than the 997 in every which way, but I think the 997 is better packaged and looks better. Looks are subjective, though. 991's belt line is higher, possibly unnaturally so for a 911, whilst the 20" wheels suit the car, the rear haunches can look too low and too bulbous from the rear 3/4 view and the wheels look almost comically tall, add in the increased wheelbase, and the car can look slightly awkward. But with some decent aftermarket wheels, an Aerokit front bumper and ducktail ... I've warmed to the 991's aesthetics over the past few months, which is something I don't think I'll ever say about those of the 992. And a red one : Edited by Slippydiff on Wednesday 29th May 18:01

ATM said: Your wife told me 30mm makes a massive difference Not so. She, like me, thinks 30mm is just "a smidge". I wish.........

Interesting thread. I currently have a 997.2 C2S which I'm about to sell for a 991.1. It's quite an odd one. I'm in an extremely fortunate position where I also have a 996.1 & 986.1 and was testing the water with the 997 to see whether I could replace one or both. Generally, it's viewed that the 997.2 is the sweet spot of water cooled 911 ownership and thought that it could perhaps be a forever car for me. What I've found is that the 997 made me unhappier in the 996 and the 996 made me unhappier in the 997. Effectively, the 997 is much inert and mature in nature than the 996, the 996 feels alive all the time. In isolation this would have been fine but whenever driving in the 997 I felt that I'd be having more fun in the 996. It's a double edged sword as the 997, especially in .2 form, has a fantastic interior and is a much more comfortable place to be. So whenever doing a journey that is longer or more mundane in the 996 one wishes for the luxuries of the 997. My solution? Buy 991.1 in pure luxury spec for GT driving and keep the 996 for fun drives.

That sounds like a fantastic plan, please let us know how you get on with the 991.1