Porsche 718e? Plug in Boxster - Page 4 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

No idea what it will really be called, but the electric Boxster isnt really that far away now…..

Is this going to be a hybrid or pure electric?

Full electric, same for the Cayman. My prediction? They'll be expensive and fall out of favour quickly after the initial hype. I'm not convinced that much of the car driving enthusiast world wants an electric sports car.

I really don't get this. As the former owner of a 987.2 Cayman, one of this best parts of it was the howl from the engine as it swung through 5,000rpm on its way to the redline, and being the lowly 2.9 meant you could appreciate it quite often as well. ETA: and that is not because I have a problem with electric car's, I reckon EV's make perfect daily's. Edited by Megaflow on Friday 4th August 09:53

I can see another view to this ... Particularly in the Boxster one of the most lovely experiences is wafting along on a warm evening watching the stars "come out" ... and a quiet electric drive would be quite a good fit with this. Shouting isn't always the best way ... For many these cars are also not used for really long distance cruising ... families, luggage, dogs are practicalities shared by many, ... my only hope is that it isn't too big. It's a car for narrow country lanes or lakeland passes on high-days and driven in a thoughtful way, many others sharing these environments may be pleased at their comparative silence ? The sound of a well run racing engine is fabulous in context, but it can also be a rather selfish pursuit in the wrong context. AP rides an electric KTM trails bike ... he understands the power of silence ... and moderate range anxiety might be a minor offset to the growing environmental anxiety. Dear Porsche, Please make it small, powerful and very very efficient ? And tell my OPC to sell me one ??

ChrisW. said: I can see another view to this ... Particularly in the Boxster one of the most lovely experiences is wafting along on a warm evening watching the stars "come out" ... and a quiet electric drive would be quite a good fit with this. Shouting isn't always the best way ... For many these cars are also not used for really long distance cruising ... families, luggage, dogs are practicalities shared by many, ... my only hope is that it isn't too big. It's a car for narrow country lanes or lakeland passes on high-days and driven in a thoughtful way, many others sharing these environments may be pleased at their comparative silence ? The sound of a well run racing engine is fabulous in context, but it can also be a rather selfish pursuit in the wrong context. AP rides an electric KTM trails bike ... he understands the power of silence ... and moderate range anxiety might be a minor offset to the growing environmental anxiety. Dear Porsche, Please make it small, powerful and very very efficient ? And tell my OPC to sell me one ?? Ah, see, now I was applying coupe logic to a convertible, and when you word it like that the Boxster variant makes some sense.

Megaflow said: Ah, see, now I was applying coupe logic to a convertible, and when you word it like that the Boxster variant makes some sense. I have a convertible Boxster GTS and the noise it makes is its soul. When driven conservatively, not in sport mode, it’s very quiet. You can hear the birds and other country sounds just fine, or when parked up gazing at the stars it’s totally quiet as the engine is off anyway. I’m sure the new car will be a dynamic drive. I’d actually be concerned about how rapid and stealthy it will be, I wonder how fast it will ‘feel’ with no sound track, will it catch the driver out, or indeed other road users as it rounds country corners with no aural warning….. The push back on the original 4 cylinder 718 was so intense Porsche dropped the 4.0 six cylinder back in it to lift the sales and reputation of the car. What they going to do if everyone says ‘no thanks’ to electric? I’m sure it will be efficient. But will it captivate?

Two questions, weight and range will presumably determine it's success. Oddly enough despite the 'perceived' backlash Porsche actually sold more four cylinder 718s than 981s. Wonder how many EVs they will shift.

Twinfan said: I'm not convinced that much of the car driving enthusiast world wants an electric sports car. I wouldn't want a car that dictates my route for me based on charge points and if they are working or not. Probably ok if you never travel more than 100 miles in any given direction from home and would rather not make any noise in the process. EVs have their place, town cars to ferry kids to schools, shopping etc but not to enjoy a drive.

Turnpike1 said: Two questions, weight and range will presumably determine it's success. Oddly enough despite the 'perceived' backlash Porsche actually sold more four cylinder 718s than 981s. Wonder how many EVs they will shift. yes but 981's were only built from 2012 to 2016 where as the 718 has been going for 7 years already

cseven said: Turnpike1 said: Two questions, weight and range will presumably determine it's success. Oddly enough despite the 'perceived' backlash Porsche actually sold more four cylinder 718s than 981s. Wonder how many EVs they will shift. yes but 981's were only built from 2012 to 2016 where as the 718 has been going for 7 years already Three year sales figures from Porsche themselves:

this was from Carthrottle re Europe and the US: Let’s hit the numbers, first in the US where things have arguably gone worst. From 7292 cars across the Cayman and Boxster 981 ranges in 2014, the total dropped to 6663 in 2015, that line’s last full year on sale and traditionally a slow one. In the overlap year, 2016, the figure was already lower again – 6260 cars. Alarm bells would have been sounding in Stuttgart. Boom: 2017 comes and goes, leaving a figure of only 5087 718s shifted. It got worse. After a brief and small resurgence with 5276 units sold in the region in 2018, 2019 has seen it dive to just 3880. In Europe the figures peaked in 2016, when both old and new models were on sale, at 9770 cars across both models. Since then the numbers have dropped to 8438, 8202 and most recently 7100 or so – this last figure is estimated as we don’t have figures for December 2019 yet, but it represents a drop to about 650 cars less than the combined Boxster/Cayman figures for the 981’s final full year in 2015. Wonder if the figures for the 718 were bolstered by emerging markets (china hence the flat 4 2.0 option)?

Do you think the false exhaust will stay? And if it does, will there be a ‘base model’ false exhaust and a ‘higher power’ false exhaust? Cars don’t look complete without an exhaust.

The received wisdom appears to be that electric cars shouldn't have any form of synthetic sound, but the biggest complaint also appears to be that they lack soul due to the abscence of... sound. I would be quite happy for the 211 to provide a "full internal aural assault" of my choice. It would need to be matched to a suitably able speaker system, no weedy facsimilies, I want the full sound with a few options. Want the classic Flat 6 howl? certainly Sir, have a penchant for the exquisite mechanical symphony of the BRM V16? No problem. All at the touch of a (real) button. You could even programme in a couple of dips in the management system to emulate a speedy change of gears. Name of the new Boxster/Cayman? The Porsche 211 as that is likely to be its range. Hopefully Porsche pull this off. If anyone can make an engaging eSportster then it's them. In a world of eCars we need something that is enjoyable to drive, and currently that doesn't exist.

ChrisW. said: AP rides an electric KTM trails bike ... he understands the power of silence ... and moderate range anxiety might be a minor offset to the growing environmental anxiety. I think that's quite different. Off road bikes, either two stroke or four stroke, make a right racket in the wrong place - quite often picturesque countryside. I can totally understand switching to electric there to keep the locals and other trails users happy. Range isn't going to be too much of a concern either. On a road with lorries, petrol cars etc that make noise anyway no-one complains if a car makes a reasonable amount of noise as it's expected.

M11rph said: I would be quite happy for the 211 to provide a "full internal aural assault" of my choice. It would need to be matched to a suitably able speaker system, no weedy facsimilies, I want the full sound with a few options. sorry but that sounds awful Twinfan said: My prediction? They'll be expensive and fall out of favour quickly after the initial hype. I'm not convinced that much of the car driving enthusiast world wants an electric sports car. thing is, ICE is being phased out, so it's not like they can go back to petrol engines if electric doesn't work out unless some other tech comes out of nowhere it looks like it's either electric or hang on to what we have while it works we might not like it, but younger gens will grow up without the noise so won't miss it, or at the very least will get used to not having it

Remember a lot of people buy them as they’re nice posers cars and they aren’t that interested in driving but might enjoy the occasional spirited drive, plus might want a convertible. I put myself in that Catagory and will look at these to replace my TT convertible when the time comes

Nickbrapp said: Remember a lot of people buy them as they’re nice posers cars and they aren’t that interested in driving but might enjoy the occasional spirited drive, plus might want a convertible. I put myself in that Catagory and will look at these to replace my TT convertible when the time comes Nick won’t be going brapp brapp then though…..

EVs are boring white goods. They have their place as a city car but beyond that they are not the answer. Can think of anything worse than a heavy , soundless sports car with no soul. Good luck porsche selling any of those

JasonSteel said: thing is, ICE is being phased out, so it's not like they can go back to petrol engines if electric doesn't work out unless some other tech comes out of nowhere it looks like it's either electric or hang on to what we have while it works we might not like it, but younger gens will grow up without the noise so won't miss it, or at the very least will get used to not having it I think once people realise EVs aren't the answer for a lot of people e.g. the plenty of people who live in places incompatible with charging the car at home the legislation will have to change. Especially if the supply of electricity doesn't increase substantially either. Porsche have hedged their bets on alternative fuel, and I think this may start to get some traction in the not-too-distant future.

I think at some stage there won't be an option (other than Classics) ... and to be fair, global warming will not wait for us. I like the idea of guilt free motoring, even if I may do everything I can to offset my usage. Sometimes I think it would be easier if I had a CO2 allowance ... but hey, our grandchildren will be paying for this.

cseven said: this was from Carthrottle re Europe and the US: Wonder if the figures for the 718 were bolstered by emerging markets (china hence the flat 4 2.0 option)? When your core markets are already in decline why would you not adapt to target new markets and boost overall sales? Although their 7100 estimate is clearly way off. If the EV can give us a realistic 400 mile range it might work, but anything less is a backward step especially for track work or touring.

Nuttbelle said: EVs are boring white goods. They have their place as a city car but beyond that they are not the answer. Can think of anything worse than a heavy , soundless sports car with no soul. Good luck porsche selling any of those They will sell as many as they can build - there will be a year long waiting list the minute they’re available. The buying public extends a lot further than ‘enthusiasts’ that go on endlessly about weight and exhaust note.

JasonSteel said: sorry but that sounds awful You've not heard it yet! You could always switch it off. I do agree that as the next generation have no other option they will not know what they are missing. Maybe PetrolHeads will be as relevant as those with an interest in Steam locomotion. Hence my hope that Porsche pull this off and make an engaging electric sports car.

abzmike said: They will sell as many as they can build - there will be a year long waiting list the minute they’re available. The buying public extends a lot further than ‘enthusiasts’ that go on endlessly about weight and exhaust note. Yes you are probably correct, especially when we not allowed to buy new ice cars anymore. Still, I super interested in reading how good/bad will be as if they can make it fun all is not lost. If it’s as soulless as we all suspect then the future is dim for enthusiasts. It’s quite a pivotal car this one (way more than the tycan). No one yet (to my knowledge) made a fun EV yet

abzmike said: They will sell as many as they can build - there will be a year long waiting list the minute they’re available. Who is the target market? Based on people I know I see the current crop of owners fall into three different groups. The trackday owners, take their driving all very seriously, obsess about improving their P&J and cringe when they hear the letters PDK. The eurohoon owners, appreciate the car for its ability to carry two people and enough luggage in comfort all over Europe taking in lots of passes along the way, have also worked out PDK works well and old enough to remember when enjoying driving was still allowed. The posers, want a badge, happy to pay for it and other than the status it could be any car, will probably be 2nd/3rd car in the household. Not that into cars and having to drive at 20mph in a lot of places isn't an issue because it makes posing easier. I fall into the middle group, I will not under any circumstances buy one, the restriction of planning a trip based on charge points would kill it for me. The freedom to do what I want when I want how I want is worth everything to me. Time will tell but whilst there is still an ICE alternative in the marketplace EV sportscars will not be a success on merit, when there isn't then it will be take it or leave it, the ultimate sales pitch. All IMO

Turnpike1 said: cseven said: this was from Carthrottle re Europe and the US: Wonder if the figures for the 718 were bolstered by emerging markets (china hence the flat 4 2.0 option)? When your core markets are already in decline why would you not adapt to target new markets and boost overall sales? Although their 7100 estimate is clearly way off. If the EV can give us a realistic 400 mile range it might work, but anything less is a backward step especially for track work or touring. Porsche already have fast chargers at Silverstone but I can't see electric cars being a viable track day solution. It is not too difficult to burn the best part of 100 litres of '98-99 ... that is 900kWh of Ev. Now Ev may be more efficient but the risk of thermal run-a-way of the batteries ... both the charging and the car batteries, must be a concern. How much would you pay for 450kWh from a fast charger ? Could there be 25,000 kWh of rapid charge capacity on circuit ? ........................... then ....................... There is the problem that thermal runaway can start at 60C and become critical at 100C ... the temperature rapidly then rising to 700C. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3khDU1Ajjs This is what is required to extinguish a burning EV .... Hence the warning not to leave sat-nav's etc inside car windows in hot sun etc etc etc ... Compounding this problem would be high charge or discharge rates which create their own additional heat ..... Edited by ChrisW. on Saturday 5th August 11:25

Quote " Thermal runaway of lithium-ion batteries occurs when the battery generates heat at a rate several times higher than the rate at which heat dissipates from the cell. The cell has reached thermal runaway when its temperature rises at a rate greater than 20 degrees centigrade per minute. Thermal runaway can occur beginning at around 140℉ (60℃) and becomes extremely critical at around 212℉ (100℃)2. At the onset of thermal runaway, the battery heats in seconds from room temperature to approximately 700°C3. The result can be fire, the release of toxic/flammable gases, and possible explosions." Unquote !

The percentage of Boxster owners that are interested in using them on track is almost certainly very small so the issue of tracks and burning batteries is largely irrelevant for an EV Boxster I imagine. Were there any similar issues and catastrophic failures with the GT4 EV development mule that was being shown a few months ago? I've got a Taycan, a deposit in for the Macan EV when that appears, and I will probably buy a Boxster EV too when they appear - unless the next generation becomes too big. I really like Boxster's and have had two (petrol obviously!) so can see the attraction of ICE, but the world is changing and I have a general interest in cars and technology, whatever the power source. Remember that there are plenty of dreadful, inefficient, and slow ICE cars (most of them really), and not every petrol unit is akin to the sound of angels singing. That last comment risks a bit of a drift away from the F6 generally found in Boxster's and other Porsche's, and I understand why people like the noise in a sports car. If the choice in the future is an EV Boxster/Cayman/911 or none at all then I know what I would prefer.

CheesecakeRunner said: Porsche will sell bucket loads of these to people who just want to commute to work (at the hairdressers) in something nice, and couldn’t give a s t what’s powering it. I very much doubt buckets but I don't doubt Porsche will sell some to people who want something nice/badge who couldn't give a s t what's powering it.

Flying machine said: If the choice in the future is an EV Boxster/Cayman/911 or none at all then I know what I would prefer. Realistically the only way to look at it.

981Boxess said: Flying machine said: If the choice in the future is an EV Boxster/Cayman/911 or none at all then I know what I would prefer. Realistically the only way to look at it. True and I'll be sticking with what I have, for as long as I can, then probably make do with nothing. An EV GT4 will be stupid expensive and nowhere near as enjoyable.

ChrisW. said: How much would you pay for 450kWh from a fast charger ? Could there be 25,000 kWh of rapid charge capacity on circuit ? Ultimately circuits will have to solve this problem with the direction of travel being EV. Yes ICE track cars will be around for a very long time, but there will IMHO be an ever increasing number of EV's that rock up and EV race series. These are not going to charged to full at a track but a 30% to 80% charge where rapid chargers can deliver said charge quickly. Modern BMS's are very good at thermal management to stop the battery overheating and control the rate of charge vs temperature. Lets be honest track fuel is not cheap, I paid £1.85 a few days ago at Anglesey and £1.90 at Oulton last month, circuits with captive customers can and will charge a premium for EV rapid charging. They'll have to as 30+ rapid chargers plus associated infrastructure will not come cheap. I personally wouldn't buy an EV Boxster/Cayman but can see that there is a market for such a car, most would I guess be 2nd/3rd/4th cars and not used very much as is case generally with the current ICE cars.

Some tracks will struggle I suspect, as some areas don’t have the capacity to deliver significant charging due to local infrastructure. This was covered on a tV program the other night, some motorway service stations that are away from large towns can’t supply the demand.

At a Porsche Club tour of PC Chester a few months ago they showed us their new substation required for the installation of two super quick chargers. Enough power, they said, for an estate of hundreds of houses. I think it may have been 600. There may be a problem here and not just at circuits and rural service stations..

There is a massive infrastructure challenge in the UK ... just consider that many homes only have a 60amp main inlet fuse due to the limited capacity of the cabling ... and then consider the capacity required for all the white goods / car charger / heat pump ? My daughter just had a Rangemaster oven fitted which required a 45amp spur for it to connect into ... 32 amp for a car charger ... 10 amp for a heat pump ? And then you add a few local electric heaters at 8 amps each ? Of course it won't all be on at the same time, but Christmas Day could be a problem ! And then "they" talk about electric boilers replacing gas or oil in houses that don't suit heat pumps ??? 30 amps + for a small house with 7 radiators ? Jokers.

ChrisW. said: I think at some stage there won't be an option (other than Classics) ... and to be fair, global warming will not wait for us. I like the idea of guilt free motoring, even if I may do everything I can to offset my usage. Sometimes I think it would be easier if I had a CO2 allowance ... but hey, our grandchildren will be paying for this. People that are so committed to Climate Change should really think hard before having children. No need to worry about their grandchildren paying for anything then.

BAMoFo said: ChrisW. said: I think at some stage there won't be an option (other than Classics) ... and to be fair, global warming will not wait for us. I like the idea of guilt free motoring, even if I may do everything I can to offset my usage. Sometimes I think it would be easier if I had a CO2 allowance ... but hey, our grandchildren will be paying for this. People that are so committed to Climate Change should really think hard before having children. No need to worry about their grandchildren paying for anything then. Except that we with future generations are the future ... to do anything else is of course personal choice, but giving up -- taking all -- or ? For the many with grandchildren, we can't send them back ... and who would want to ?

ChrisW. said: I think at some stage there won't be an option (other than Classics) ... and to be fair, global warming will not wait for us . I like the idea of guilt free motoring, even if I may do everything I can to offset my usage. Sometimes I think it would be easier if I had a CO2 allowance ... but hey, our grandchildren will be paying for this. You think getting rid of all the petrol cars will solve that? TX.

Terminator X said: You think getting rid of all the petrol cars will solve that? TX. Prepare yourself for the inevitable lame "every little helps" response, meanwhile China, India and the States carry on business, and emissions, as usual. The only thing we are achieving going past where we are already with our efforts is making the lives of poorer people in the UK a misery. When the climate change hypocrites stop all flying when uneccesary (holidays) and stop buying goods from China then they will have the right to preach to the rest of us.

Twinfan said: 981Boxess said: Flying machine said: If the choice in the future is an EV Boxster/Cayman/911 or none at all then I know what I would prefer. Realistically the only way to look at it. True and I'll be sticking with what I have, for as long as I can, then probably make do with nothing. I will probably end up doing the same, my car is getting on a bit now (65 plt) so toyed with the idea of one last upgrade before throwing the towel in, the only option for me would be a Boxster 4.0, but spending twice as much on a car that has as many positives as negatives (for me) is hard to justify. The extra power is almost pointless for road use nowadays. Sorry, I forgot this is PH, I have seen two cars I could buy, can't decide on the colour so will buy both, when the EV comes out I will buy one regardless, when I decide which I prefer I will just scrap the others, can't be harsed with the hassle of selling any

I think the points being made are all very valid. China is still building coal power stations ... so don't buy Chinese ? If an electric car doesn't suit, keep your classic petrol car ? If you don't need to fly, don't ? If you can stick on a jumper and turn down the thermostat or improve your insulation, do ? None of this should be hair shirt ... irrespective of whether or not you agree with global warming, why waste resources which are finite ? It leaves more resource for the important things that you really want to be part of. It's for each person to make their own choices ... which is what I hate about the blunt policy of extended ULEZ zones.

ChrisW. said: I think the points being made are all very valid. China is still building coal power stations ... so don't buy Chinese ? If an electric car doesn't suit, keep your classic petrol car ? If you don't need to fly, don't ? If you can stick on a jumper and turn down the thermostat or improve your insulation, do ? None of this should be hair shirt ... irrespective of whether or not you agree with global warming, why waste resources which are finite ? It leaves more resource for the important things that you really want to be part of. It's for each person to make their own choices ... which is what I hate about the blunt policy of extended ULEZ zones. In most things in life it is always the last little bit that hurts the most, running, F1 speed etc etc The UK has done more than enough to have made a sensible change the rest is just the sheep following the shepherds (the same ones that told us to buy diesels) blindly for the sake of it, common sense appears to have left the building. As for making choices, tell people having to sell perfectly good cars to humour Khan, ULEZ, the scheme where it os OK to pollute if you pay, but not otherwise - I am astounded how many seemingly intelligent people are actually so naive that they cannot see what is going on here.

I’m not convinced on the longevity of EVs, ok not a Porsche but take something like this which just keeps on running: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/828-000-miles-8... Vs this Model S that needs a new battery for 17 grand at barely seven years old… “Worthless in 48 hrs” https://youtu.be/jLq_jPAE8_g

ChrisW. said: And tell my OPC to sell me one A time may come rather quickly when your OPC will be desperate to sell you one.

ChrisW. said: Dear Porsche, Please make it small, powerful and very very efficient ? And tell my OPC to sell me one ?? Lots of images out there. Have a close look and you'll see it's very likely 992 derived (has 992 hood / front boot lit, 992 wing mirrors etc). Probably same relationship to 911 as previous Caysters, so front half of the monocoque shared with the 911. So, it won't be small. Might be quite powerful. If Taycan is a guide, it won't be terribly efficient. Personally, don't think it will be a terribly good product. It's just a bit early re available battery tech. If anything I think limited range is more of a problem with sports cars than dailies and ditto weight. Doesn't really matter if your daily is a fat pig, does a bit with your sports car. Right now your options with a sports car are reasonable weight and crap range, very heavy and OK range, or distinctly mediocre on both counts. I would think 10 years from now if the manufacturing issues around solid state batteries have been solved, there will be batteries with at least 2x energy per unit mass of today's best packs and a BEV sports car with good range and reasonable weight will be very doable.

Turnpike1 said: I’m not convinced on the longevity of EVs, ok not a Porsche but take something like this which just keeps on running: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/828-000-miles-8... Vs this Model S that needs a new battery for 17 grand at barely seven years old… “Worthless in 48 hrs” https://youtu.be/jLq_jPAE8_g That is amazing. Just sat overnight and it’s degraded from fine to written off. At least in an ICE car you usually get warnings, such as smoke, rattles, clonks and performance drop.

That Tesal has done 300,000 miles though, with heavy use of supercharging rather than overnight trickle. Not exactly an average car. Plus I'm sure an ICE car might need a bit of engine work at the same mileage...

Klippie said: ChrisW. said: And tell my OPC to sell me one A time may come rather quickly when your OPC will be desperate to sell you one. No, my guess is that they are too proud ... having told me that I expected too much of them ? (A professional supplier / customer relationship).

flat6crocer said: ChrisW. said: Dear Porsche, Please make it small, powerful and very very efficient ? And tell my OPC to sell me one ?? Lots of images out there. Have a close look and you'll see it's very likely 992 derived (has 992 hood / front boot lit, 992 wing mirrors etc). Probably same relationship to 911 as previous Caysters, so front half of the monocoque shared with the 911. So, it won't be small. Might be quite powerful. If Taycan is a guide, it won't be terribly efficient. Personally, don't think it will be a terribly good product. It's just a bit early re available battery tech. If anything I think limited range is more of a problem with sports cars than dailies and ditto weight. Doesn't really matter if your daily is a fat pig, does a bit with your sports car. Right now your options with a sports car are reasonable weight and crap range, very heavy and OK range, or distinctly mediocre on both counts. I would think 10 years from now if the manufacturing issues around solid state batteries have been solved, there will be batteries with at least 2x energy per unit mass of today's best packs and a BEV sports car with good range and reasonable weight will be very doable. That is of course quite possible ... my electric car is a Kia e-Niro and even that hasn't been without it's moments ... like my wife having to climb out of the window of a completely dead car after going to the shops !! But the South Koreans are pretty good at this ... 'wouldn't buy Chinese under any circumstances. I've first hand experience of them stealing technology that they don't understand and then trying to undercut the owners of that technology ....

Twinfan said: That Tesal has done 300,000 miles though, with heavy use of supercharging rather than overnight trickle. Not exactly an average car. Plus I'm sure an ICE car might need a bit of engine work at the same mileage... Indeed. And if ICE cars were the new thing, you'd find dealers quoting massive numbers to replace the whole engine for a minor fault as the know-how and facilities for repairs wouldn't have developed. As BEV cars become more common, service providers will pop up to address battery issues. They already are, but it will only get easier to have batteries repaired. Suspect in the long run, BEV will prove a lot more reliable and cheaper to maintain than ICE. They're fundamentally simpler. If modern ICE launched now, there'd be epic teeth sucking over the complexity. All the moving parts, the cooling system, the turbos, the red hot exhaust manifolds packed into a tight engine bay, right next to lines delivering highly flammable liquid at ultra high pressure - oh and you hand pump that liquid yourself into the car. Not just a zillion failure points just waiting to happen, but pretty much a bomb waiting to go off / fiery accident waiting to happen. It'll never catch on.

ChrisW. said: ... my electric car is a Kia e-Niro and even that hasn't been without it's moments ... like my wife having to climb out of the window of a completely dead car after going to the shops !! Slightly better than my mate being told by Jaguar to stop charging his ipace in his integral garage until they have done the latest hardware and software recall. Apparently they have had some problems with them catching fire whilst charging overnight, hopefully rare, but it has happened. As the problem is with the car and not the home charger unit he is charging away from home until it has been done. He isn't really a car enthusiast as such but loves the way it looks, the acceleration and the way it wafts down the road, however this latest issue is the final straw and he is going back to a Lexus Hybrid.

Synthetic fuel and hydrogen are both better solutions than EVs. The government has sold us another pup and won't admit their cock up now its gone too far to do a U turn. If only they would put the same effort and finances into the better alternatives out there. It's dieselgate all over again and EVs will become just like betamax video tapes

981Boxess said: EVs have their place, town cars to ferry kids to schools, shopping etc but not to enjoy a drive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsVtnvmmzlQ

Uncle boshy said: 981Boxess said: EVs have their place, town cars to ferry kids to schools, shopping etc but not to enjoy a drive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsVtnvmmzlQ Sounded superb, although blue would not have been my chosen colour. Straight choice, forgetting money etc, I would pick the Lambo every day of the week.

Nuttbelle said: Synthetic fuel and hydrogen are both better solutions than EVs. The government has sold us another pup and won't admit their cock up now its gone too far to do a U turn. So, wait, the UK government is the reason why Tesla has become the most valuable car company in the world, the reason why every major car manufacturer on the globe is transitioning to BEV?! Amazing. The reality is that the UK government is, in the long run, powerless in all this. If the global car industry goes BEV, then cars will go BEV including those sold in the UK. The UK government cannot stop that. Sure the UK government could slightly delay the adoption rate in here, but it's fiddling at the edges and ultimately counter productive. Moreover, if the global car industry is going BEV, and every indication is that it is, dragging our feet will just make the process worse in terms of aspects like charging and grid infrastructure on the one hand, and industrial policy on the other. We'll still end up adopting BEV, we'll just do a worse job of that adoption. If we decide we know better than the rest of the world, we'll be left with poor supporting infrastructure when the reality of BEV global dominance hits and we won't be involved in industrial proceeds of manufacturing and supplying all the technology. We'll just end up importing everything at the cost of huge capital outflows. Personally, I think synthetic carbon neutral fuels seem like a better idea than BEV. I certainly think cars lugging around 600kg-plus of battery is a bit of a nonsense. But the reality is that the UK can't dictate the direction the global car industry is heading. And making the best of a flawed technology is very clearly already in the national interest.

The problem we are going to see is that car manufacturers are going to exit from development of ICE vehicles and turn all their attention to BEV (probably already started) so if the infra isn’t in place by 2028/29 then we are going to be committed to a roadmap that just doesn’t work. Even a late change in direction on the date won’t help much. I think there may be a major supply issue at the end of the decade, not enough new vehicles that can actually be used of either BEV or ICE.

flat6crocer said: So, wait, the UK government is the reason why Tesla has become the most valuable car company in the world, the reason why every major car manufacturer on the globe is transitioning to BEV?! Amazing. The reality is that the UK government is, in the long run, powerless in all this. If the global car industry goes BEV, then cars will go BEV including those sold in the UK. The UK government cannot stop that. Sure the UK government could slightly delay the adoption rate in here, but it's fiddling at the edges and ultimately counter productive. Moreover, if the global car industry is going BEV, and every indication is that it is, dragging our feet will just make the process worse in terms of aspects like charging and grid infrastructure on the one hand, and industrial policy on the other. We'll still end up adopting BEV, we'll just do a worse job of that adoption. If we decide we know better than the rest of the world, we'll be left with poor supporting infrastructure when the reality of BEV global dominance hits and we won't be involved in industrial proceeds of manufacturing and supplying all the technology. We'll just end up importing everything at the cost of huge capital outflows. Personally, I think synthetic carbon neutral fuels seem like a better idea than BEV. I certainly think cars lugging around 600kg-plus of battery is a bit of a nonsense. But the reality is that the UK can't dictate the direction the global car industry is heading. And making the best of a flawed technology is very clearly already in the national interest. Surely it is the the policies of the governments of major western economies that have primarily provided the impetus for the car industry's move towards EV rather than the car industry deciding that is what they wanted to do?

981Boxess said: Uncle boshy said: 981Boxess said: EVs have their place, town cars to ferry kids to schools, shopping etc but not to enjoy a drive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsVtnvmmzlQ Sounded superb, although blue would not have been my chosen colour. Straight choice, forgetting money etc, I would pick the Lambo every day of the week. The rimac is going to have a limited audience for sure, but point is defining all electric cars as white goods is a far from correct. It outperforms the lambo in handling, power and speed. The lambo is really bringing noise as it’s differentiator. Discounting the next boxter just because it’s electric would seem to be a bit short sighted.

Uncle boshy said: The rimac is going to have a limited audience for sure, but point is defining all electric cars as white goods is a far from correct. It outperforms the lambo in handling, power and speed. The lambo is really bringing noise as it’s differentiator. Discounting the next boxter just because it’s electric would seem to be a bit short sighted. It's not just because it's electric, it's because of sound/noise initial cost range convenience of charging emotional draw driving experience as a whole etc EVs fit the electric goods comparison to me because that's where they fit best, as a functional tool to get a job done.

Uncle boshy said: It outperforms the lambo in handling, power and speed. So it should, correct me if I am wrong but isn't the Rimac four times the price?

Twinfan said: It's not just because it's electric, it's because of sound/noise initial cost range convenience of charging emotional draw driving experience as a whole etc EVs fit the electric goods comparison to me because that's where they fit best, as a functional tool to get a job done. You saved me the trouble

flat6crocer said: So, wait, the UK government is the reason why Tesla has become the most valuable car company in the world, the reason why every major car manufacturer on the globe is transitioning to BEV?! Amazing. The reason Tesla has become the most valued car company is because its being treated as a Tech company. Not many car companies can promise the world fail to deliver and still see the stock price climb because the CEO was the second coming apparently. FSD is a prime example, listening to Elon at least 7 years ago remind me of tomorrows world and robots in the 60's. they have been charging for full FSD since 2016 by the way 10k a pop for something that does not work or gained approval. I suppose getting your software engineers to put a fictious range number to help early adopters take the leap as they all did 350 miles range that is closer to 200 by the way did help with sales. And I do not know maybe the reason car companies are transitioning to BEV is governments like ours are banning ICE and i am making the giant leap that they may still want to sell their products after that date? Speaking to my local OPC over 80% of their Taycan turnover is via business customers and if you think the vast majority of these are because they are forward thinking and want to look after the planet then you would be mistaken, its all about the benefits and that is driven by the Governments direction of policy to support BEV. With respect to the statement "we won't be involved in industrial proceeds of manufacturing and supplying all the technology." I mean that is just laughable , just look at renewable today, just how many of the over 11000 turbines that are active today were produced/developed here?? no doubt that even the hard hats use by the field engineers were made in China.

ChrisW. said: I can see another view to this ... Particularly in the Boxster one of the most lovely experiences is wafting along on a warm evening watching the stars "come out" ... and a quiet electric drive would be quite a good fit with this. Shouting isn't always the best way ... For many these cars are also not used for really long distance cruising ... families, luggage, dogs are practicalities shared by many, ... my only hope is that it isn't too big. It's a car for narrow country lanes or lakeland passes on high-days and driven in a thoughtful way, many others sharing these environments may be pleased at their comparative silence ? The sound of a well run racing engine is fabulous in context, but it can also be a rather selfish pursuit in the wrong context. AP rides an electric KTM trails bike ... he understands the power of silence ... and moderate range anxiety might be a minor offset to the growing environmental anxiety. Dear Porsche, Please make it small, powerful and very very efficient ? And tell my OPC to sell me one ?? With this sort of car yes shouting is always the best way

Twinfan said: It's not just because it's electric, it's because of sound/noise initial cost range convenience of charging emotional draw driving experience as a whole etc EVs fit the electric goods comparison to me because that's where they fit best, as a functional tool to get a job done. This sometimes I think people dont understand sports cars at all

981Boxess said: Flying machine said: If the choice in the future is an EV Boxster/Cayman/911 or none at all then I know what I would prefer. Realistically the only way to look at it. Me I prefer none , electric sportscars are completely and utterly pointless

981Boxess said: Terminator X said: You think getting rid of all the petrol cars will solve that? TX. Prepare yourself for the inevitable lame "every little helps" response, meanwhile China, India and the States carry on business, and emissions, as usual. The only thing we are achieving going past where we are already with our efforts is making the lives of poorer people in the UK a misery. When the climate change hypocrites stop all flying when uneccesary (holidays) and stop buying goods from China then they will have the right to preach to the rest of us. Im going to get the usual kicking but 100% agree

Charlie_1 said: 981Boxess said: Flying machine said: If the choice in the future is an EV Boxster/Cayman/911 or none at all then I know what I would prefer. Realistically the only way to look at it. Me I prefer none , electric sportscars are completely and utterly pointless I wouldn't buy £1k trainers and I wouldn't buy an EV Boxster/Cayman/911, but I have no problem with others doing it if they want to, their money, their choice, their business. To some owners it wouldn't matter if it ran on coal if it has a Porsche badge on the bonnet for their neighbours to see.

981Boxess said: I wouldn't buy £1k trainers and I wouldn't buy an EV Boxster/Cayman/911, but I have no problem with others doing it if they want to, their money, their choice, their business. To some owners it wouldn't matter if it ran on coal if it has a Porsche badge on the bonnet for their neighbours to see. When these start getting delivered to customers in Germany and China, they might well be coal powered…..

TTmonkey said: When these start getting delivered to customers in Germany and China, they might well be coal powered….. China are trying just as hard as we are, they are fitting CPFs (Coal Particle Filters) to all the new coal power stations they will be adding to the ones they already use. Which will come in handy when they start supplying us with EVs so we can save the planet.

Turnpike1 said: I’m not convinced on the longevity of EVs, ok not a Porsche but take something like this which just keeps on running: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/828-000-miles-8... Vs this Model S that needs a new battery for 17 grand at barely seven years old… “Worthless in 48 hrs” https://youtu.be/jLq_jPAE8_g YT Views He's well known You Tuber, I'm pretty certain the next video will be how he fixed it for £2.50, almost certainly with help from other well known You Tubers

freedman said: Turnpike1 said: I’m not convinced on the longevity of EVs, ok not a Porsche but take something like this which just keeps on running: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/828-000-miles-8... Vs this Model S that needs a new battery for 17 grand at barely seven years old… “Worthless in 48 hrs” https://youtu.be/jLq_jPAE8_g YT Views He's well known You Tuber, I'm pretty certain the next video will be how he fixed it for £2.50, almost certainly with help from other well known You Tubers Might well be a minor issue, but commercially no one’s fixing them so only option for 99.9% of people will be a replacement. Tesla seem to make them with a design that means they are unfixable at a commercial cost.

981Boxess said: Terminator X said: You think getting rid of all the petrol cars will solve that? TX. Prepare yourself for the inevitable lame "every little helps" response, meanwhile China, India and the States carry on business, and emissions, as usual. The only thing we are achieving going past where we are already with our efforts is making the lives of poorer people in the UK a misery. When the climate change hypocrites stop all flying when uneccesary (holidays) and stop buying goods from China then they will have the right to preach to the rest of us. It's worse than you think. The Chinese government are paying companies for the amount of EV's that are registered, so they can claim to be the world leader in EV's. This is what is happening to those EV's: https://insideevs.com/news/672926/china-abandoned-...

[quote=Charlie_1]his sometimes I think people dont understand sports cars at all [/quote Why do you think the Rimac isn’t a sports car then? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsVtnvmmzlQ

BAMoFo said: Surely it is the the policies of the governments of major western economies that have primarily provided the impetus for the car industry's move towards EV rather than the car industry deciding that is what they wanted to do? Yep. Economies, plural. Whatever the UK decides unilaterally is largely irrelevant. Unless you think the UK government deciding to move against BEV will mean Daimler, VAG, BMW, Geely, Tesla etc will all stop investing billions in BEV and instead shift their strategy to suit the UK! The reality is that the future will be dictated by whatever the EU, US and China decide.

TTmonkey said: Might well be a minor issue, but commercially no one’s fixing them so only option for 99.9% of people will be a replacement. Tesla seem to make them with a design that means they are unfixable at a commercial cost. No doubt you are right about that I think its the biggest issue with owning an EV thats not under factory warranty

Megaflow said: The Chinese government are paying companies for the amount of EV's that are registered, so they can claim to be the world leader in EV's. This is what is happening to those EV's: https://insideevs.com/news/672926/china-abandoned-... I would not trust the Chinese Government with the contents of my wheelie bin, so even though that should surprise me it doesn't.

Uncle boshy]harlie_1 said: his sometimes I think people dont understand sports cars at all [/quote Why do you think the Rimac isn’t a sports car then? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsVtnvmmzlQ Well technically its a supercar (verging on Hypercar) not a sports car IE not built as a car but as a plaything really & at that level I would rather have an ICE konenigsegg , EV's are acceptable (almost) for drudgery not fun

flat6crocer said: BAMoFo said: Surely it is the the policies of the governments of major western economies that have primarily provided the impetus for the car industry's move towards EV rather than the car industry deciding that is what they wanted to do? Yep. Economies, plural. Whatever the UK decides unilaterally is largely irrelevant. Unless you think the UK government deciding to move against BEV will mean Daimler, VAG, BMW, Geely, Tesla etc will all stop investing billions in BEV and instead shift their strategy to suit the UK! The reality is that the future will be dictated by whatever the EU, US and China decide. The U.K. alone doesn’t matter but the EU have a 2035 ban, China does too and the US land of the gas guzzler has its own mandated zero emissions vehicle targets at a federal level and bans at the state level. Hence decisions like the one Porsche has made with the 718

D4rez said: Hence decisions like the one Porsche has made with the 718 Porsche have changed their minds and sales strategies in the past to suit sales figures. We ended up with a fantastically polluting F6 4.0 just superb. “Bans” are never set in stone, laws can change particularly as the net zero b ks reality actually hits the average joe, and they won’t be voting for it no matter how much nonsense EVangelist loons try to spew into internet motoring forums.