Proof that a manual is quicker than a PDK!! - Page 3 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

Shamelessly copied from Planet 9, this video puts Jason Plato and Marcus Gronholm in two 981 Caymans, one manual and the other PDK. The outcome, is unless you're chasing 0-60 stats, the manual is quicker. Let the debate continue.................. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedd...

So 30kg less and 1 sec faster in a lap, with PDK losing all advantages demonstrated on a straight line? Sorry, bulls t for me.

In the hands of a skilled driver, the manual probably is quicker If you haven't spent most of your adult life learning optimum racing lines and heel / toe techniques, the PDK will help you achieve 95% of the results The reason Porsche only offer the GT3 with PDK is it makes the car drivable for ordinary drivers. It gives the driver confidence that he cannot harm the engine by selecting the wrong ratio yet probably means the engine gets revved much more that a manual changer

Same skilled driver, don't understand how manual can be quicker. PDK has got 30kg more but quicker gearshifts, see that comparison on a straight line, it is overall faster. Now, if you put that 2 cars in a track, with the same driver, really don't understand why the manual should be quicker. Gents, maths not bulls t.

The only reason you would actually want to own a Cayman/Boxster/911 with PDK is if you can't drive very well. Nothing more nothing less.

SkinnyP said: The only reason you would actually want to own a Cayman/Boxster/911 with PDK is if you can't drive very well. Nothing more nothing less. you maybe, I bought mine since I now do most of my driving in London traffic.

Fifth gear to me never do like for like comparisons Their usual set up of races with different drivers, usually has some biased result. And i find it hard to belive a manual is quicker than a PDK equiped similar car The fact the manual had the larger alloys with lower profile , wider tyres appears to be not mentioned here as well! Edited by mikebradford on Saturday 15th November 16:00

SkinnyP said: The only reason you would actually want to own a Cayman/Boxster/911 with PDK is if you can't drive very well. Nothing more nothing less. The only reason I bought a PDK car is because it is faster in a track and in a straight line. Matter of fact. No emotions, no granny drivers with a lot of nostalgia, no bulls t. Gents, 458 Speciale, Lambos, 991 GT3, P1, La Ferrari, 918 all with semi auto dual clutch? Why? Ferrari or McLaren or Porsche would never put an auto box if the car was not quicker. Why Porsche still offers a manual on Cayman and 911? Because the entry price (so more customers) and because some people "old school" like it, so more customers. Not because is faster.

Doesn't Jason's touring car have a sequential transmission with dog clutch engagement to minimize torque loss between gear changes? A bit closer to PDK than H box manual. I am a big PDK fan and DCT before that, I have access to others cars with a manual gearbox and clutch if I ever have the urge.http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/imgs/4.gif

What a load of drama queens trying to justify the particular box they have chosen. The boring PDK vs manual debate is as fruitless as the apple vs orange one. Just make your own choice, don't preach about it and enjoy.

It's televsion and its simply meaningless, and useless. A PDK will always be faster period.

...and my Porsche is manual.LOL

Skyman said: What a load of drama queens trying to justify the particular box they have chosen. The boring PDK vs manual debate is as fruitless as the apple vs orange one. Just make your own choice, don't preach about it and enjoy. Oh yeah man, as soon as there is not bulls tting, every choice is the best for each owner.

Why does it matter which is faster? It doesn't, but its a forum were people are invited to respond to the topic raised.

anonymous said: [redacted] Fair point. But nobody here said PDK is better because better peak of acceleration. Just because it's quicker from A to B (higher average speed due to quicker gearshift times as you wrote). See the title of this topic, and I don't accept bulls tting, sorry.

anonymous said: [redacted] I like the last line :-) PDK is really slower lol never thought about that angle, but you are correct that in gear PDK is slower awesome.... I have said it on a few threads that on track you only change up a gear maybe 5 or 6 times, people seem to think it's like 20 or 30 times for some reason. 5 times 2/10th second is 1 full second , but the PDK will take longer to brake also, corner slower and be slower in gear. weight is killer on track for all those reason hence why BTCC add weight to the winners to slow them down 1st position: +45 Kg 2nd: +36 Kg 3rd: +27 Kg 4th: +18 Kg 5th: +9 Kg 6th or lower: 0 Kg the question is on a 1300kg car how much does 30kg slow you down a lap more or less than the 1 second gained in gear change ?

Not sure of the maths but doesn't 30kg's actually become alot more when you factor in all the forces involved during hard corning at speed?? hence why the manual car is quicker.I like PDK but for me on the ocassional blast in my 987 down a deserted road at night,heel & toeing and the great feeling when you get it just right is far more rewarding than having the car do it all for you.The manual box option will be ticked when I order a new S'

RBT0 said: Why Porsche still offers a manual on Cayman and 911? Because the entry price (so more customers) and because some people "old school" like it, so more customers. Not because is faster. I don't think that's right. The big advantage of not offering a manual is that idiot drivers can't do so much damage to the clutch and driveline. Many modern sportscars are now massively powerful and driver abuse will destroy things very quickly. The manufacturers want to be selling reliable cars. Fact is, the entry Porsches aren't very powerful by modern standards so aren't so high risk. Having said that, even my manual Boxster can deliver smell from the clutch much more easily than any car I've owned before. Driving a manual is quite pleasing but the performance of a Porsche with PDK and Sport+ is simply astounding.

but we have decide the performance is slower, only the gear change is faster !!!

anonymous said: [redacted] Isn't the big benefit of PDK the MPG and emissions figures that can be obtained and then quoted?

anonymous said: [redacted] Well, at least people who buys used sport cars prefers manual. And i agree that stupid modern time drivers can easily burn the clutch or f ked up transmission otherwise if they drive powerful manual cars. You need just read those golf r threads and you realise hiw morons some drivers are, no running in period when car is new, no warm up before hard acceleration and so on...

that's the lease market and PCP market for you, people misuse leased and PCP cars.

mrdemon said: that's the lease market and PCP market for you, people misuse leased and PCP cars. Interesting point.

mrdemon said: but we have decide the performance is slower, only the gear change is faster !!! Who agreed that? What do you mean for performance? Lap time? Example? Every review I've seen states PDK is quicker on track, and I velieve so, 30kg on 1400 kg car (incl driver) would be at list compensated by quicker gear changes.

but when in gear the PDK is slower :-), corners slower, takes longer to stop and is a s t drive mores the point lol I don't care any way auto's are for 30 year old girls who cannot pass a test after 12 years. (true story, my gf sister has taken to doing the auto test as manual is to hard)

Surely that was just a test of who has more experience of track driving? The only way you could get an idea would be if both drivers drove both cars against the clock.

mrdemon said: I don't care any way auto's are for 30 year old girls who cannot pass a test after 12 years. Tres amusement, but some of us were driving s tty, non synchro manuals when you were starting school. Do you get a chest wig with every new manual Porsche nowadays?

mrdemon said: but when in gear the PDK is slower :-), corners slower, takes longer to stop and is a s t drive mores the point lol I don't care any way auto's are for 30 year old girls who cannot pass a test after 12 years. (true story, my gf sister has taken to doing the auto test as manual is to hard) Yes, in gear Manual is faster. Assuming same ratios. Same gear? PDK is 7 speed, have you ever heard about complains on tall manual gear ratios? I've heard a lot, Evo wrote about that in the last issue (CoTY). But then again, I am interested in overall lap time. Spa, Silverstone, Nurburgring. Do you believe a Manual Cayman would be faster there?

The difference in lap time is going to be inconsequential, PDK or manual. PDK may be a fraction quicker in an out right drag race but in the real world both cars are going to accelerate at the same rate of knots, the only difference being in a manual you'll be driving the car and in the PDK you'll be operating the vehicle.

Sorry don't agree, so far we said: - different weight (Manual -30 kg) - different gearshift times (PDK quicker) - different gear ratios (Manual taller, i.e. 6 instead of 7) To me, different car.

30kg on a 1400kg car, irrelevant. Quicker gearshifts only matter when accelerating, when timed the difference is minimal. Are the gear ratios actually different and can you quantify the difference in the real world? 7th is just an overdrive. Either way, PDK could make the car go at warp speed and it would still be boring and annoying. Anyone who says otherwise can't drive a manual, in which case PDK probably isn't going to make you much quicker. Edited by SkinnyP on Monday 17th November 21:47

Proof that a road race driver that is familiar with a track is faster than a rally driver that is unfamiliar with a track.

SkinnyP said: PDK may be a fraction quicker in an out right drag race but in the real world both cars are going to accelerate at the same rate of knots, the only difference being in a manual you'll be driving the car and in the PDK you'll be operating the vehicle. Have you driven a PDK on Sport+? I have, and honestly believe it would leave me for dead in my manual car.

RBT0 said: Yes, in gear Manual is faster. Assuming same ratios. Same gear? PDK is 7 speed, have you ever heard about complains on tall manual gear ratios? I've heard a lot, Evo wrote about that in the last issue (CoTY). But then again, I am interested in overall lap time. Spa, Silverstone, Nurburgring. Do you believe a Manual Cayman would be faster there? on the bigger power tracks yes the manual with the longer ratio's will prob be quicker on those tracks but we are talking a second either way , are you that good a driver to know ? you don't act change gear that much on track and you don't hear people saying the longer ratio's are a track issue they normally help esp on the ring and Spa. they might not be so great at Cadwell park as an example. each track will have a quicker car, PDK might be on one track while manual will be quicker on another. one car with a full tank of fuel will be slower than the other car with 1/4 tank etc etc it's pretty much a mute point unless you can lap within 2/10th of a second every lap of a Pro race driver. the best way to be quicker is to have enough camber and the right tyres. Edited by mrdemon on Tuesday 18th November 08:56

For what it is worth, the 5th Gear test is obvious b ks. I don't think anyone can sensibly say that 30kg makes much difference at all in a car this heavy. It's the difference between me and a fat bloke. The PDK ratios are a bit shorter, if I remember correctly, which probably makes the in-gear acceleration pretty much identical. PDK is much much faster for most drivers, even relatively capable ones. But that is neither here nor there. All of these cars are far too fast to be driven hard on the road, so the most important thing by a country mile is how enjoyable and involving you find the experience of driving. I would give the PDK plus 1 point for speed (out of 100) and the manual plus 80 points for being fun. Outright speed really is not remotely important once you have a car this fast. If you are on track, too, you presumably want to have the maximum of involvement with the car, in which case manual would better. I am so grateful for my PDK when I have to dull driving in London or on a motorway (where I think a dual clutch box actually makes the car a bit safer because you can "stamp and go" if you need to get out of the way), but you are lying to yourself if you think that PDK is the enthusiasts choice or doesn't detract from the driving experience.

ORD said: I am so grateful for my PDK when I have to dull driving in London or on a motorway (where I think a dual clutch box actually makes the car a bit safer because you can "stamp and go" if you need to get out of the way), but you are lying to yourself if you think that PDK is the enthusiasts choice or doesn't detract from the driving experience. I'm not so sure. If you like heel and toeing, then go manual. If you like left foot braking whilst banging down the gears with a paddle, then go PDK. I can see the appeal in both.

anonymous said: [redacted] I'm with Vlad on left foot braking. If you give me two pedals, I'll use each foot for a different task, whereas I don't LFB in a manual. It is quite nice to be off brakes and onto gas immediately, even in relatively sedate driving. And it is hugely more convenient in stop-start driving.

anonymous said: [redacted] It does make you wonder how many people who buy a car with the manual box do ever get round to heal and toeing.

anonymous said: [redacted] I agree. I didn't mean to suggest that LFB was as important as everything that you get with a manual!

ORD said: whereas I don't LFB in a manual. Somewhat pointless anyway given that the ecu cuts engine power when this is attempted.

anonymous said: [redacted] I'm sure quite a few PHers do, I just wonder if you looked at all of the manual cars bought, what percentage of them have ever been H&Td.

anonymous said: [redacted] Agreed. I made the mistake of choosing PDK 4 years ago. My free choice - I'd heard 'all the good things' about PDK and decided to go with the new tech and new way of doing things. It's the last time I'll make that mistake. What the attraction is about driving a computer (that's been programmed to piss you off as much as possible) I simply can't fathom. It goes against everything that makes driving enjoyable (assuming you really like driving for driving's sake, and you want to become the best driver you can be). And, yes, in the right hands (far better than mine) manual WILL be quicker than PDK over a lap. The math is very simple: the extra weight of the PDK has to be accelerated, slowed and turned - all events where PDK is therefore slower. This is only offset by gearchanges - where PDK is quicker. As there are many more acceleration/braking/turning events than there are gearchanges in a typical lap, manual wins: it simply has the advantage more often. Obvious when you think about it.

Ian_UK1 said: anonymous said: [redacted] Agreed. I made the mistake of choosing PDK 4 years ago. My free choice - I'd heard 'all the good things' about PDK and decided to go with the new tech and new way of doing things. It's the last time I'll make that mistake. What the attraction is about driving a computer (that's been programmed to piss you off as much as possible) I simply can't fathom. It goes against everything that makes driving enjoyable (assuming you really like driving for driving's sake, and you want to become the best driver you can be). And, yes, in the right hands (far better than mine) manual WILL be quicker than PDK over a lap. The math is very simple: the extra weight of the PDK has to be accelerated, slowed and turned - all events where PDK is therefore slower. This is only offset by gearchanges - where PDK is quicker. As there are many more acceleration/braking/turning events than there are gearchanges in a typical lap, manual wins: it simply has the advantage more often. Obvious when you think about it. 2% difference or so in mass, isn't it? I doubt that makes much difference at all, to be honest. As I have said before, it is a fat man vs a thin man in the drivers seat (in fact the effect is presumably less because it is lower down than that in the car and could even conceivably lower its COG).

Ian_UK1 said: And, yes, in the right hands (far better than mine) manual WILL be quicker than PDK over a lap. The math is very simple: the extra weight of the PDK has to be accelerated, slowed and turned - all events where PDK is therefore slower. This is only offset by gearchanges - where PDK is quicker. As there are many more acceleration/braking/turning events than there are gearchanges in a typical lap, manual wins: it simply has the advantage more often. Obvious when you think about it. Er, the PDK accelerates faster, changes gear faster and I (believe) doesn't break the drive from engine to wheel repeatedly to change gear (if you see what I mean). Re the vid, surely all that proves is that the racing driver is quicker than the rally driver on a race track? We needed to see them swap cars immediately and do it again - and then maybe take both cars to a rally stage and see which or who is quicker then?

heebeegeetee said: Ian_UK1 said: And, yes, in the right hands (far better than mine) manual WILL be quicker than PDK over a lap. The math is very simple: the extra weight of the PDK has to be accelerated, slowed and turned - all events where PDK is therefore slower. This is only offset by gearchanges - where PDK is quicker. As there are many more acceleration/braking/turning events than there are gearchanges in a typical lap, manual wins: it simply has the advantage more often. Obvious when you think about it. Er, the PDK accelerates faster, changes gear faster and I (believe) doesn't break the drive from engine to wheel repeatedly to change gear (if you see what I mean). Re the vid, surely all that proves is that the racing driver is quicker than the rally driver on a race track? We needed to see them swap cars immediately and do it again - and then maybe take both cars to a rally stage and see which or who is quicker then? Does the PDK accelerate faster because it has a closer ratio gearbox?

VladD said: Does the PDK accelerate faster because it has a closer ratio gearbox? I thought it got off the line quicker - that's why they had to do it over a flying lap. If they did a standing start (as the majority of races are) or tried a traffic light GP start (the far more likely scenario for any road car, I would have thought) then the pdk is gone while the manual driver is still faffing with the clutch. I don't know which car (or care) is genuinely quicker over a lap, but in that vid it had to be skewed by not doing a standing start and the drivers didn't then swap cars to eliminate their respective differences (it would be impossible for them to be identical, wouldn't it?) so I say that the vid is definitely not proof of anything.

VladD said: It does make you wonder how many people who buy a car with the manual box do ever get round to heal and toeing.

heebeegeetee said: I thought it got off the line quicker - that's why they had to do it over a flying lap. If they did a standing start (as the majority of races are) or tried a traffic light GP start (the far more likely scenario for any road car, I would have thought) then the pdk is gone while the manual driver is still faffing with the clutch. I don't know which car (or care) is genuinely quicker over a lap, but in that vid it had to be skewed by not doing a standing start and the drivers didn't then swap cars to eliminate their respective differences (it would be impossible for them to be identical, wouldn't it?) so I say that the vid is definitely not proof of anything. This - perfectly. Anyone that takes this single unscientific test as "PROOF that Manual is quicker that PDK" is very easily fooled, when countless other video reviews also anecdotally always suggest that "the pdk would probably be quicker but manual gives you a greater level of old school involvement" A great thread to generate a discussion - But really is like a fart against the wind. More 'Proof Required' Must Try Harder.

TDT said: Anyone that takes this single unscientific test as "PROOF that Manual is quicker that PDK" is very easily fooled, A great thread to generate a discussion - But really is like a fart against the wind. More 'Proof Required' Must Try Harder. The term 'proof' was said very much tongue in cheek when naming this post.

Trev450 said: TDT said: Anyone that takes this single unscientific test as "PROOF that Manual is quicker that PDK" is very easily fooled, A great thread to generate a discussion - But really is like a fart against the wind. More 'Proof Required' Must Try Harder. The term 'proof' was said very much tongue in cheek when naming this post. lol, I know - but there are a lot of people actually putting stake into the findings of the video. Like I said great for a debate.

heebeegeetee said: Er, the PDK accelerates faster, changes gear faster and I (believe) doesn't break the drive from engine to wheel repeatedly to change gear (if you see what I mean). but we have come to say the PDK does NOT accelerates faster, it is in fact slower due to the extra mass, it changes gear faster that's all. it is a tough one over a lap and imo it depends on the track.

Is the pdk also not faster due to the computer controlled clutch, as in a dsg? I'm thinking of the Autocar film with the Golf, how on standing starts the computer controlled clutch was always faster 0-60 (in conjunction with traction control?) and returned consistent times, compared to a human-operated clutch which/who was slower and less consistent, and that's with a driver that's vastly more experienced than all of us?

For them to be mechanically identical surely they should have the same size wheels and the same tyres and yet the manual has P Zeros on larger wheels than the PDK which is on Goodyear Eagles.

I would take the good years over the pzero any way. So that makes the manual even faster lol

SkinnyP said: The difference between a PDK and manual car could be gained or lost simply by having a big s t before starting your journey. Personally though I find PDK difficult to drive for the following reasons although what I find most fascinating is that it achieves the impossible task of making a 320bhp sports car feel lethargic. In normal mode it keeps the revs too low and labours the engine, so I put it sport but it still shifts up when I don’t want it to and then you have to put up with jerky gear changes. Sports+ can be too far the other way, and I don’t have the patience to drive a car using the paddles. If I wanted to drive an automatic I’d take a V8 and a torque converter any day of the week, that’ll be the Cayenne S then. Oh and what last thing, the engine note sounds so much better with a manual box Ozzie Osmond said: SkinnyP said: PDK may be a fraction quicker in an out right drag race but in the real world both cars are going to accelerate at the same rate of knots, the only difference being in a manual you'll be driving the car and in the PDK you'll be operating the vehicle. Have you driven a PDK on Sport+? I have, and honestly believe it would leave me for dead in my manual car. Yes I've driven both PDK extensively with both the 2.7 and 34 and yes I've tried sport+ but I don't see what the fuss is all about; Sport+ can't do anything that a manual can't and you don't have to faff around with any buttons. I intend to take the Cayman to the Nurgburgring in the not too distant future, and I would like to see a BTG time in the high sevens. I also expect to spend most of the lap in 3rd gear, with a brief excursion into 2nd, 4th and maybe 5th in two or three places, PDK would be of no benefit here. anonymous said: [redacted] Sound deadening, in a Porsche? They must have forgot to install some in my Cayman I agree completely re labouring the engine in PDK. It is utterly infuriating and can only be an emissions thing. As my wife put it 'If it's not supposed to accelerate hard below 2500 revs, why doesn't it change down on it's own when I press the accelerator hard?!' No real answer to that other than that it's not been programmed properly as regards responding to part throttle at low revs.

The difference between a PDK and manual car could be gained or lost simply by having a big s t before starting your journey. Personally though I find PDK difficult to drive for the following reasons although what I find most fascinating is that it achieves the impossible task of making a 320bhp sports car feel lethargic. In normal mode it keeps the revs too low and labours the engine, so I put it sport but it still shifts up when I don’t want it to and then you have to put up with jerky gear changes. Sports+ can be too far the other way, and I don’t have the patience to drive a car using the paddles. If I wanted to drive an automatic I’d take a V8 and a torque converter any day of the week, that’ll be the Cayenne S then. Oh and one last thing, the engine note sounds so much better with a manual box Ozzie Osmond said: SkinnyP said: PDK may be a fraction quicker in an out right drag race but in the real world both cars are going to accelerate at the same rate of knots, the only difference being in a manual you'll be driving the car and in the PDK you'll be operating the vehicle. Have you driven a PDK on Sport+? I have, and honestly believe it would leave me for dead in my manual car. Yes I've driven both PDK extensively with both the 2.7 and 34 and yes I've tried sport+ but I don't see what the fuss is all about; Sport+ can't do anything that a manual can't and you don't have to faff around with any buttons. I intend to take the Cayman to the Nurgburgring in the not too distant future, and I would like to see a BTG time in the high sevens. I also expect to spend most of the lap in 3rd gear, with a brief excursion into 2nd, 4th and maybe 5th in two or three places, PDK would be of no benefit here. anonymous said: [redacted] Sound deadening, in a Porsche? They must have forgot to install some in my Cayman Edited by SkinnyP on Tuesday 18th November 21:26

mrdemon said: I would take the good years over the pzero any way. So that makes the manual even faster lol A lower profile and without checking specs probably wider tyre on a well sorted car is going to make more difference surely. Doesn't really matter as people will champion the one they prefer anyway but if doing a comparison then it should be truly comparable. Yes I know its for an entertainment show but it seems a shame they couldn't have done it properly.

Re the 'labouring' PDK At a steady 70mph on the motorway, my PDK (in normal mode) sits in 7th gear at about 2000rpm. The engine drones and feels laboured. The car is still responsive enough for normal motorway driving. Obviously, on B roads with 'sport selected, there's no such issues. So, how is the manual geared by comparison?

BGHughes said: So, how is the manual geared by comparison? Definitely no droning in the manual. Looks as though top gear ratio is about 0.81 in the 6-speed manual Boxster S and 0.62 in the 7-speed PDK, which is a big difference. But presumably easily solved by changing down a gear! Although having said that it seems 6th is still longer in PDK at 0.88 than in manual at 0.81 IMO the guys who think the manual is as quick as a PDK are wildly optimistic, at least in the absence of gross driver abuse of the manual. Which is what happens in most of these track comparisons - standing starts by dropping the clutch with the engine revving, clutchless gear changes and all that. PDK shifts cogs massively quicker than a human and the 30kg weight penalty is small at 2%. http://press.porsche.com/vehicles/2013/2013_Boxste...

Thanks Ozzie, good link 7th is a fuel saving gear then. As you say, it's easy enough to tap the sport button and drop to 6th if the drone gets annoying. The only slight worry is the engine sounds so much nicer at 85mph