M3's are fast.

I was on the 57 Fwy the other night & a E46 M3 started racing me. It had great response, and was fast! And it prob costs $20K less.. but it was modded, dunno what it had, but it was pretty quick, at least as fast as my C2. maybe faster... Im sure this is not a suprise to any of you, but just thought id share, i was suprised, i knew they are fast, but this one was darty.. on the freeway!

Stock E46 M3 is ever so slightly faster than a stock 911 Carrera (at least according to accumulated magazine 0-60s...and felt faster to me as well). The 911 drives oh so much nicer though, being what, 400-500# lighter?

Comparing stock specs, a C2S is faster than a E46 M3. However, I'm pretty sure the M3 is faster than a 3.4L C2

You've got is backwards. The 996 is slightly quicker than the M3. C2's have published times of 12.9 for the 1/4 and 0-100 in 10.1. I have never seen a time that quick for a stock e46 M3.

"Comparing stock specs, a C2S is faster than a E46 M3. However, I'm pretty sure the M3 is faster than a 3.4L C2" Hey Cosmosc4s 3.4 c2s are pretty fast, faster than a c4s anyday.

Are we going to have this conversation/debate again? If yes, I'll just sit back and grab the popcorn...

I wouldn't look too much into his M3 is faster then my stock c2. Everyone I know with a M3 has tuned the heck out it,you never know what that person could have done to it.

I beat a "hopped-up" 5 series (non M) on the freeway once, and also an M3 (maybe a 2003 model or so) - but the M3 was nipping at my heels and we were going very fast. Of course, I would have left him way behind if I could have gotten up to top speed, but I didn't want to die, kill someone, or get thrown in jail. BTW - Car and Driver and EVO magazine (the major mag in europe) both tested the 99 C2 0-60mph in 4.6 secs. There was another magazine that got 4.6 also, but I can't remember which one. I can't remember the exact quarter mile times they got, but I remember they were in the very low 13sec range. There really isn't a whole lot of cars that can hang with a C2's 4th gear pull from 100mph - it's pretty mean. 911's are highway monsters.

Yes we know M3s are fast. They have 333 hp. A Pontiac GTO, mustang, STI, Evo are fast as well, but they are not Porsches.

They are, maybe my useless mods are working after all?

they're about equal i just sold my m3 for my c4s if any of th eother is in a better gear or gets a slight jump it'll be DEEP into the three digits before anyone is catching up and passing the other you freakin' 911 dudes are holding onto a very thin strand of hair (no offense to those with thinning hair/receding hairlines)

About as priceless as the quote on my desktop... black GT3 styled as an "inspirational poster" saying: Porsche "Showing American cars with twice the horsepower what's up since 1948" I mean my current car could take down a stock C2 in the 1/4, but would probably get owned on the x-way, and well... even if it could win, it's still no Porsche!!!! It's like the spoiled lil' brat in the Honda who thinks he's so cool 'cause he got a Fast N' Furious prop car from eBay that runs a 10.XX 1/4, it's like yea he can beat most any exotic out there, but at the end of the day he's still driving a Honda, not to mention that's maybe 1 in 1000 Honda drivers who have their cars "heavily modded" since most usually don't get the performance that their so-called "ideal" power:weight ratio is supposed to allow, and it's mostly 'cause of one reason... THEY ARE NOT DRIVING SPORTS-CARS!!!! It's like a turd with a diamond in it is still just that, a turd....

don't understand all the snobbery going on here... let the civic guys, the toyota guys, the vw guys whatever guys who love cars enjoy it for what it is v. putting them down in a condescending manner because we have a porsche and they don't. it's one thing if they're making fun of your mom, but it's a whole other thing to denigrate them because of the way they choose to modify a car of all things to their personal taste. i'm no Mother Teresa, but the ***** attitude is comical and unbecoming at the same time.

I have no taste but I like to kill'dem m3's anytime..................... The '99 is the fastest, period. The Taco provides super derilium pushes to the rear wheels at speeds above 45 mph. BTW, I like the rice burners, tacos, and green beans.

Ben, congrats on the changeover!!!! I guess I'll be dumping my new identity and going back to my old ***** self.................... Cheers!

I think it was Road and Track or Motor Trend. It has been in many mags many different times. Of course, there's been some higher times too............ The lighter c2's are still fastest!!!! I had an '04 try to chase me down recently, no comparison, left him in the dust multiple times.............. I his defense, he was a heavy cab with exhaust..............

hehe no worries ya *****!

M3's are fast.... in a straight away... but when you factor in curves, driver, and FUNABILITY..... porsche wins............hands down....

yikes........and I have been thinking about buying a 996 but I would hate to humiliated by an M3..........better keep my 944turbo and save face

I went straight from an E46 M3 to my 996 40th car...the Porsche is definitely & decisively faster, as it should be, with 400 pounds less weight, 12 more HP and 12 more lb-ft torque. And it corners MUCH flatter, and is infinitely more involving to boot... All that said, the M was a fantastic car and I enjoyed it greatly.

hopefully I didn't miss some sarcasm here, but just in case I did I apologize in advance... 1) I don't own a P-car... yet 2) I do own a "ricer"... 3000gt VR4 3) I'm refering to the kids who think they're such hot **** and put down everybody elses cars 'cause they watched FnF like 1000x and memorized every line so they could easily regurgitate it and make it sound like they actually know something about tuning cars, they have a terrible mental illness where your typical teenager should have a ceiling high stack of Playboys, Maxims, or FHM's they have nothing but Import Tuner and Rice Weekly... and not to look at the hot Asian girls on the hoods, to think that they are "cool" by having a car that most average secretaries or low-mid level corporate employees drive for the sake of fuel economy and reliability and have the nerve of trying to compare it to an exotic car.... Maybe it is vanity on my part, but owning a Porsche is a dream of mine, while I could just as easily spend the money on making my VR4 an all-out drag monster or even putting the money into brakes, suspension, and weight-reduction and having a car that could kill on the oval and road-courses, at the end of the day it's still a Mitsubishi and the fact that I would have to spend so much just to get my car to the level that a 993/6 is off the show-room floor is enough reason for me to skip the b.s. and go for my dream!!!! In fact for slightly less than what a 99-00 996 C2 would cost there's a guy on 3si selling a very highly modded 98 VR4, I'm considering it, but will hopefully come to my senses and just get the C2 when the time comes, hopefully this Fall or early Winter.... To sum this up: I don't put down ricers who are truly passionate, I put down ricers who put down others and need to be put in their place!!!

Ben, I completely agree. Kids have always built upon whatever cars were afordable and available at the time. I'm sure someone was laughing at the 72 chevy pickup I tricked out during highschool but it was a blast and I learned a lot about cars. Jim

Maybe the M3 had a plenum installed and was testing out his new found power?

3rd party testing has them so close that 95% of the people on this forum couldn't tell which was faster....seat of the pants is a subjective, not objective. The normal variation between cars coming off the line is probably greater than the difference between the M3 and the 996. Not so long ago, when I was at Road Atlanta, Pierre Savoy was asked about the M3 and he spoke very highly of it...but he also liked the Boxster so who knows...<grin>!

If y'all are buying non-GT/TT 996's for straight line speed you are going to be sorely disappointed. You car will shine on the track and then you know where you are in the pecking order......at the top.

all the talk above sounds very high school. move on with it and focus on getting your dream car v. worrying about what people who grew up with bad parenting or lackthereof think about any one, two or three things. like jay z said, go on and brush your shoulders off and then grab a coke and a smile

Bottom line - $$ = HP Power. There will always be someone out there that has a faster ride. But not every car has finesse, like the P cars.

Having recently (last 3 months) come from an E46-M3 to a 996 I can tell you that it is just as fast as the 996 without mods. Maybe the 996 is .1 to .2 seconds faster to 60 but how many of us are capable of making that a real world difference consistently? Now in the twisties, the P-car prefers the inside line and the M3 (because BMW made it wayyyyy too heavy) prefers the outside line but in the hands of a capable driver it will give the p-car a run for its money in the turns. It will lose, but it's suspension setup is still remarkable given what it is. I found that I kept thinking I would push it too hard and it kept getting stronger instead of weaker the harder I pushed it on the track. All things being equal the P-car will win but most of us are not great track guys so I would think that losing the M3 would and should be a problem.

funny you say that since the one kid that annoyed me the most in HS had the lackthereof of parenting.... Also the sad reality is i'm almost done w/ college and get reminded of HS EVERYDAY, I know I'm not one to judge, but damn compared to some of the ppl in my school you'd be hard pressed to know whether or not they're still in HS and another sad reality is it's natural for ppl to focus on the negatives of society instead of the positives, call it childish, call it what you will, I call it human nature.... if I got a dime for everytime I got a childish response from a so-called "mature" adult on 3si I'd have a C-GT now!!! But I see your point, I wasn't trying to start a flame war and really don't focus much of my time on such ppl it's just that when I make a post about it it suddenly turns around on me and makes it seem like my life's goal is to put down the "ricers", when a) i'm one myself, b) the goal is to get a 996 C2, have a successful life, but most of all a healthy and happy family for myself And P.S. Jay-Z sucks!!!(atleast since he sold out like 10yrs ago, believe it or not he used to be underground and about the MUSIC, not the money) and we can thank such songs as "Brush The Dirt Off Your Shoulders" for the stupidification(if that's even a word) of our youth

I hardly think a man who came from rags to mega riches and fame "sucks" regardless of whether you like his music or not. Unless you know him personally, how can you even begin to judge whether he sucks or doesn't suck or whether he sold out to corporate America or is still with the ghetto producing for THE music whatever that beings to mean? Just like you he wants and likely is providing for his loved ones trying to lead a healthy lifestyle while helping those beyond his immediate family. How does that "suck"? I'm not a Jay Z fan myself, FYI, but I don't think he sucks. Just like the M3 doesn't "suck" because it weighs 3,400 pounds. It fills those 3,400 with some nice extras and comfort that the 911 can't touch and isn't designed to touch thus the reason why I can respect the M3 for what it offers just the same for the 911. i've argued this before with other rennlisters, but i remain firm in my opinion that the 996 carrera and the E46 m3 are in teh same performance ballpark. What i've learned since owning a 911 is that the 911 is more than perf specs.. the way it goes about doing all the lovely things it does as an automobile is leaps and bounds more enjoyable, tactile than the E46 M3 which puts it out of the BMW M ballpark. In most cases, I'd wager whether a heavily fiberglassed Jetta or Porsche CGT, what sucks is the person behind the wheel. Again, stay away from the stereotypage and just do your thang. Keep it positive, keep it candid. Don't be so quick to judge. btw, where are you going to college that you're reminded of HS everyday? It's like me driving my 911 and thinking about my M3 everytime (hasn't happened once yet). Bigger, better things my man. Consider holding off on getting a nearly decade old car and maybe taking a trip around the world or something. Sorry for the major tangent... I tried to keep it on topic the best I can.

I cant see a stock 996 of any year beating a stock SMG M3 in a drag race at a well prepped drag strip. Two variables that hurt a 996, a) most people do not shift well enough and b) 996's uses a cable shifter, you are handicapped from the get go on precision shifting. I bet if you had multiple runs, the M3 would win the most. I have seen stock non-SMGs run 12.70's in the quarter-mile back when I was going to get one.

Being a Bimmer guy that crossed over, I hope I can provide a slightly different perspective on the Bimmer vs. Porsche debate (although too frequently discussed here). Porsche takes a race car and dumbs it down for the street. BMW takes a Sedan and builds it up to race. From these to design approaches comes the distinct personality the respective cars. The Porsche is a very communicative machine which involves all of your senses (at least mine does with all of it's mods). It's raw and simple. The BMW's are refined and fast with an emphasis on refined (less driver involvement and more forgiving car). Are both cars fast. Yes. Which is ultimately faster? Depends on the driver and the venue. I have seen many a M3 school 996's at the track but this is not a factor of the car but the driver. All things even (driver) than the 996 will be ever so slightly quicker. Which is more fun? Do you have to ask? Pete

My personal response:

It's a matter of opinion my friend, something we're entitled to in this land of opportunity The facts are there, yea i'm glad he's providing for his family, but as a world-famous entertainer his music directly affects/influences hundreds of millions of people and the sad reality is when he did what most Hip-Hop artists who rose to fame in the mid 90's did and went from being an informative artist to a side-show act focussed mostly on money, sex, and excess he did as I would describe as "sold-out" and while his #1 goal is to entertain his music has a great influence over an entire generation and it is a bad influence that makes everyone focus on materialistic objects... now wanting a Porsche, as the case is with me is a personal goal influenced only by my love for automobiles(I used to be in Mechanical Engineering so it is NOT simply an infatuation, but a hobby and interest), but he makes kids want to go out and buy jewelry, clothes, and vehicles that they could never afford and would never really want if it wasn't for such music... i.e. grillz, then again that was thanks to Nelly.... never said the M3 sucks, it also an auto that intrigues me. Try driving a 3800lb "sportscar", well actually GT car, like I do b4 you try to refer to a car as "heavy" University of Illinois, where jocks have been replaced by frat-boys and cheerleaders are now sorrority girls.... Already got a 16yr old car, no big deal to me. And see avatar.... studying in Vienna now and recently got back from a trip through Western Europe for Spring Break, so got that part taken care of, next thing on the list is to get the Porsche, of course b4 I have to settle down and become a family man.... And back to topic.... on the x-way the extra weight should kill an M3 not to mention the front-engine/RWD vs. rear-engine/RWD setup of a C2.... both are awesome cars in their own right, but if I had the choice I'd still take the C2 And finally a good friend of mine is about to sell his E36 M3 and get an E46 M3, even though his dream has been to get a Porsche, I'm trying to convince him it's worth the extra $5 or so to just go for the Porsche instead of losing money like he did when he first got a 328iS 8yrs ago instead of getting the M to begin with....

If you can tell Jay Z to his face that he "sold out" based on your shallow knowledge of him, then so be it. Have your opinion as I have mine. You sound really young, but the funny thing is, I'm not THAT much older than you. As for the VR-4, now that car DOES suck. hehe Good luck in your search. I'm done.

Your beef should be with me young padawon.............. M3's suck and so do VR4's............... Ben, why'd you buy the slow Porsche??????????? awd is for girls, didn't you get the memo?

HA! Rappers created the obsession for money, sex and excess, hilarious! *laughing as I pass the magazine Robb Report and Dupont Registery at the airport*. Damn those rappers, slow M3's and right hand drive VR4's.

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OMG, this forum is at its all time low. What does Jay-Z have to do with M3's or Porsche's?

If I recall - e46 runs 0-60 in 4.8, 996 n/a runs in it around 5.0-5.1. The M3 is fast and yes the gearing is very good with the SMG. I considered getting an M3 prior to the 996, and I've owned both an STi and an Evo. All "faster" cars, but they are not beautiful looking and handling 911's.

the fact that he owns like 15 of each.... but coming from the person who indirectly started all this chaos, you got my vote for getting this thread back on topic and off the childish b.s. that has resulted!!! So back to M3's and Porsche's and no more talk of VR4's, I know they suck, why do you think I spend more time here than at 3si???

The STI and EVO are both faster than a 996? Say it aint so.

Straight line - you betcha. Thats one thing I really miss from having a ricer car (mostly the torque and slingshot feeling) is the turbo/accleration of the STi. My background with AWD is what got me into getting a 996 C4. Love the car 996 - the looks, the feel, the suspension and handling, miss the ***** out power. Wish I had some more $$$ for a supercharge/TT pcar... Also, EVO MR probably takes a 996 on the track as well. Sorry...

From a dig I wouldnt care if an STI or Evo could beat me since thats not what Porsches are all about but if I met up with one on the highway and he walked me from 60, 80 or whatever I dont know if I could recover from the shame.

Thanks for the kind words fellas. I went from 944, to 944T, to M3, and next plan to go 996TT.

DUDE, YOU ARE DREAMING..................... The WRX STI is not nearly as quick in a straight line or on the hwy or in a turn. maybe in the rain or dirt unless you match up to a C4. Now a heavy modded sti is different, they can be fast, but not just an evo or sti. Way slower............................... Dope man, dope man, what'cha gonna do, the rice police are coming for you.

One of my best friends from grad school was a regional manager for Subaru and covered several states and had to drive a NEW car every 2K miles. I begged him to get an STi at least once so I could compare to my SLOW *** CAB and when he did I can say that while it is got some get up and go....it is QUICK, but not FAST. There is a difference. The seat of the pants feel in the subie FEELS faster since you are rocketing away in a sub 300hp 2.5 liter turbocharged car. But faster than an 996 it ain't. And don't even think of playing with a 996 on the track......the STi will think it can hang with that 4WD setup but within a lap you don't even see the STi in your rear view anymore. Summary: Quick? Yes. Fast? Not at all.

Yes, test drove one a while back and it was disappointing to say the least. I expected more after all the hype and at the end of the day I felt like it was a sentra or corrolla. I like power, I love to mod, and a modded tricked sti would be cool, neighbor has one with 450 hp aprox. However, even he will tell you the car is gutless above 100 and the 996 in any form will outrun it. Maybe a Boxster non S model would be more comparable.

I concur. From my experience from a roll a 996 will out run an STI. Even from the line they will jump 1 car ahead but as you enter the triple digits that "box" has a slim chance.

A new base Boxster but not the old ones. Those were **** poor in the power dept.

I did a few pulls with my buddy in his 2004 E46 M3 to see what the results were. Were were dead even a few times and I alsways was about a few feet and maybe inches in front of him though. I have a 99' C2 6spd completely stock too. They are pretty quick and I can also tell that the faster we went the more i would have pulled on him.

I saw an interesting "Top Gear" episode where they tested the GT3. I was amazed that they lapped the GT3 IN THE WET faster than an Evo VIII did the same track in the dry. 996 isn't as fast as a GT3 of course, but still - that's impressive wet weather performance from a very similar car. I think an STi would beat the 996 from a stoplight to stoplight race - by virtue of time to distance, as opposed to time to speed. The 996 would be a couple ticks faster to 60, but would reach the 60mph point while BEHIND the Sti. The Sti, with someone who knows how to launch, would leap out ahead by a length or so at the start. If you only raced a block or two, it would be a very close race and up to the driver. Doesn't mean a whole lot - because the 996 would win eventually reel it in and pass it - but food for thought. You can't always look at 0-60mph times and use that as a gauge on who would win a stop-light drag race. Time to distance is much more important- obviously- in these quick races. On the same token, an M3 has similar 0-60mph numbers as both the 996 and the Sti, but it has the worse traction between the three, and so would be the worse in time to distance between them.

Good points on the 0-60/stop lights - I think STi wins those, sorry guys. But yes, over 100mph, 996 has it with the top end advantage. I think some are underestimating the STi/Evo power. M3Killa, I can't believe you think the STi was like a corrolla! Bad interior, and rough ride? yes, but awsome power and good AWD - most definitely.

over 100mph??...........crap by then how far behind is the 996?? and at what speed have you finally caught up?? and at what speed do you finally pass? Most highway races dont go to 175...........

I've seen and heard of races of both drivers easily doing 120+, especially in big city/outside metro areas on the highways.

The Sti would jump ahead a bit at first from a dead-stop, but the 996 would be ahead and pulling away well before they got to 100. If you were in 3rd gear going around 70mph and raced an STi from that point, you'd pull away without much problem. He'd be hanging around close behind you, but each second that went by would mean more and more difference in speed. You'd win and there would be no doubt how was the fastest - so don't worry.

I like this quote that sums it up best about P-cars... "Porsche's cars will never sacrifice handling for top speed, never pursuit acceleration over braking, never place lightness above reliability" While there are some of cars out there can out-accelerate, have higher top speeds, and are lighter... what it all comes down to is they all do it at the sacrifice of something else while Porsche strives to be towards the top in EVERYTHING without sacrificing something important to say it is the absolute best in something meaningless like top speed(when you ever gonna go that fast anyways... unless of course you're on the Autobahn)

Aww shucks Dell that just hurts!!! It's not slow it's just a momentum car......

hehehe.....but a beautiful one at that!

I realize this is a discussion about M3 vs. 996, but I had to say something as a former '05 STi owner because it seems some posters don't really understand the capabilities of the car. To start, I'll be the first to admit the STi is not a Porsche or a BMW or any other nice/exotic/luxurius car. It accomplishes a narrow set of tasks very well and does not try to do anything else. The STi is a rally car and was made to go from 0-100 really fast. Porsches are designed for different purposes and that is obvious in their execution. Both great cars designed for different purposes and each attract different drivers. Automobilemag has the following stats for each car (I included the price just for fun): 04 STi - 0-60 in 4.9; 1/4 mile in 13.5 @ 103; $31k 05 911s - 0-60 in 4.4; 1/4 mile in 12.8 @ 111; $79k I couldn't find stats from the same source on a base 911 coupe, but I'm going to guess it is a bit slower than the 's' numbers above, which puts it on par with the STi. While it was difficult to find complete data, I found some Nurburgring track times: 8:23 --- 147.435 km/h -- Porsche 996 Carrera 4, 300 PS/1466 kg (sport auto 01/02) 8:24 --- 147.143 km/h -- Subaru Impreza WRX STi (sport auto 05/04) If that is a C4 without the 's', than it has the weight disadvantage against it, but then again it might be a better match for an STi that also has an AWD system and 300 hp. You people more knowledgeable about 911's than me can chimie in, but I think a stock C4 weighs close to an STi and has similar HP/TQ numbers. I would expect a C2/s to have better numbers, but didn't see one on the list. However, please take this info with a grain of salt because here are some other numbers you may find interesting: 8:22 --- 147.749 km/h -- BMW M3 E46, 343 PS/1584 kg (sport auto 12/00) 8:23 --- 147.435 km/h -- Porsche Boxster S, 280 PS/1426 kg (sport auto 04/06) In the end, any of this data is questionable, but I think it's safe to say an STi can hold it's own against a C2/C4 and keep up with the 's' variants. Sure you can argue, "From a role the Porsche will win", or "from a launch to 60 an STi will win", or "over 100 a Porsche is better", but at the end of the day they are both great cars. When I bought my STi, I wasn't really interested in the Porsche, but I recognized it as an icon of sports cars. However, my brand new STi sure was boat loads of fun and I have driven few cars since that have rivaled it's fun factor. Now I'm in the market for a new car and I am looking at a C2s, but given the cash, I'd prefer a Turbo. There will always be a better/faster/whatever car. Link Removed. I can't post my source for the Nurburgring times b/c I'm a newbie here. If anyone wants it I can pm it to them. BTW, if anyone has better track data, please post it. /zp

M3 E46 vs 02 911 C2 - Very reliable source http://www.track-challenge.com/main_...mparison_e.asp Porsche 1 M3 0 Case & Point

That shows a 98 996 being 7 secs faster around the 'Ring than an 04 STi, and 2 secs faster at Hockenheim. That's quite significant - WAY ahead after 1 lap. Put tires on the 996 that are 6 years newer technology (to match the 04 test date of the STi) - and the difference would be even more significant.

You guys can QB race all you want, but the STI, Evo, M3 et al are in the same performance league as the 996 carreras.

Here are a couple additional track times to add to this from the official Nurburgring logs: 8:17 --- 149.215 km/h -- Porsche 911 Carrera Targa, 320 PS/1399 kg (sport auto 06/01) 8:17 --- 149.215 km/h -- Porsche 996 C2 (1998) Walter Rohrl (Sport Auto 01/98) What was funny was that Walter Rohrl ran the exacts same time in a 99' ROW M030 Carrera with Traction Control and an LSD as he did in an 02' ROW standard/non LSD Targa. Here is a good link to view a lot more times: http://www.esma.no/nordschleife.html No it does not look favorable for the E46 M3 until you introduce the CSL model. With its 440 lb lower weight (making it lighter than a GT3), 360 hp, race oriented suspension and improved brakes; the CSL ran a 7:50 which was faster than any 996 GT3 time. Unfortuantely, it was built in very low production numbers, was never offered here and was priced at �18,000 more (about $36K) than the standard M3 (in the UK). Here is another little shocker. BMW is currently making press releases about the new 420hp M3 that is coming out. They have stated the new V8 weighs 15-30 lbs less (depending on source) than the inline-6 it replaces. What they aren't talking about is the total car weight. They have released the curb weights and the new M3 is 55 kg (121 lbs) heavier than the 335i Coupe. Keep in mind that the 335i is 61 kg (136 lbs) heavier than an E46 M3. This means to expect the new M3 to increase 250 lbs from the previous model with a loaded weight close to 3700 lbs. BMW must be trying to make it more of a touring car than a sports car since it will actually be as heavy as 928 GTS and only 200 lbs lighter than the simlarly powered RS4.

zp2063 and Mr. Choi, thank you for backing up the theory/thought I've been saying regarding the Evo and Sti. BTW guys, I was comparing them to the 996 only - I havent driven a 997. Sti and Evo are quite the bang for the buck, but yes, still no Pcar.

gunkat, ain't nobody gonna argue when you roll a gt2 or say a gallardo... cuz it's clear cut like tofu and a butter knife but the very fact that we have threads like this goes to show you that it's close enough between these rides to make some of us come off the bench like we're peyton manning when in fact most of these guys probably throw like girls and can't even begin to throw a spiral when you actually put them to the real world test on the field =D i sold my pristine, tastefully modded under factory warranty m3 for a 911 and would never look back, but i can respect these other cars for what they are and don't resort to the whole "but it's not a porsche" bs. hell, i'd mob in a new body cadillac escalade on 24s and say that there is no subsitute - so many great cars for so many diff folks. love it all. and before the lap time calculator mag test fan boys flame me... I absolutely LOVE my 911 so we do have something in common so be easy... actually bring it on.

I don't know what the issue is, really. Yes we all know the STi and M3 and whatever else has a lot of power and they are in the same ballpark. The 996 IS faster though on a racetrack and will pull away on the highway. Big deal - it is what it is. The STi has similar power/weight ratio and 4-wheel drive on a rally-bred suspension, performs very well - especially considering how much it costs. I don't know why anyone should take offense at hearing "It's no Porsche". We here love our Porsches and chose to buy them because we like them more than other cars. I bought an 02 WRX when they first came out and I loved that car - it was a ton of fun and bang for the buck. I got rid of it for a Porsche because I've been wanting one for 30years, so I pulled the trigger. There is some guy with a Chevy Astro mini van that runs 10.x's in the 1/4 mile. He would smoke me, but it's no Porsche so I couldn't care less. You could make ANY car as "fast" as a Porsche in certain categories, but so what- we really don't care. Our cars are incredible and all around performers, no matter what the category. If your car, or former car, is as fast as one than more power to you - but it's no Porsche and noone really cares a whole lot.

Nurburgring ring times are nice but different drivers will of course vary with different times and the same driver may feel more comfortable in the BMW or Porsche which would change even those times. Both cars are great! I just wish I could turn a time of 8:23, makes my 9:48 look rather bad! Oh well it was fun anyway.

Right on the money, I totally agree. $$ = HP bottom line

Anybody know why Hans Stuck left Porsche for BM?

ElTorr, You've owned a 911 for a lot longer so just to be clear, I hope you understand I say what I say with the utmost respect (same goes for the other Rennlist seniors). My thing is, I would never, ever go up to an STI, EVO, S2000, M3, Elise, whatever guy and say to his face "But it ain't no Porsche" or "there is no substitute", etc even if they were playing up their cars which I am learning that they do quite often, but that's nothing unusual. Actually, when people find out that the carrera in the parking stall is mine, they always seem to mention what they're going to do to their car to make it faster, better, what their moms friend drives (something fast) blah blah it's cute. and voluntarily. and honestly i don't give a flying fuq about their ride unless it's a new F-car, pagani, murc, s65 amg, etc. So if I can't say it to their face, that "there is no subsitute", I'm not going to come into a Porsche frat party and stroke each other's collective 911 laptime hairsplitting egos. there's already a negative perception, nonmenclature (porsche *****) so seriously bud, you go up to any self-respecting dude and say "there is no substitute"... you sound like an ****. On the street, they're close enough in perf to call it a draw. On the track, it comes down to the driver more so than anything else. Even quoting 'Ring times is absurd as there are way too many variables to account for that the +/- overlaps each other since.... each of these souped up commuter cars have been souped up strong enough to more than compete with the performance aspect of the 911 save for the GTX cars and at a lesser price. heck, to walk the talk, how many of YOU are going to drive your 911 outside of the US? How many of you are going to do the laptime tests yourself to see how you and your car truly stack up? it's fun to qb race... everyone does it in every club. it's like fantasy baseball, basketball etc. to me, never been into that stuff. too much virtual not enough reailty. i use the mag tests as a guideline and with a grain of salt. the fast track dudes, serious guys who have the skills, time and $ to race for fun tend to be much more open minded about cars v. those who have a street pimpin' machine who like to live thru car reviews and published perf #s. with all that said, remember, I absolutely love my 911 and love this forum. i would rather just drive my jeep cherokee and use the funds for something else if i had to sell the porsche. i wouldn't pick up an STI or S2000 or even an M3 now that i've tasted the 911 flavor... because there is no substitute because the 911 is more than just #s. it's an experience that only owners can understand, that can only come from day in and day out driving and maintaining. i'm not putting the 911 fan boys down. I think you're just very loyal dudes and that's totally cool. like a porsche pitbull. i'm more of a generalist. i like all kinds of cars and can appreciate each for what they have to offer. and for me, there is a substitute for porsche. it's called an F-car.

He never really left BMW and grew up with their cars. He's a great guy. I met him in 2002 in Monza at a BMW event the night before the F1 race. Hans Stuck's Career

Once you break a timing belt and bend all the valves on a F-car, you will undoubtely know what that saying means.

When that F-car exhaust drowns out your quiet VW leaking oil, don't tell me I didn't warn ya.

A good friend of mine has a 360, and it doesn't impress me overly.

I thought I wanted a Ferrari. They sound great and they look great but after driving one, I realized I just didn't like it that much. Sounds weird, but it's the truth.

And just think of the Hei�e Schei�e 911(s) you could have for Ferrari money!