996 GT3 v Cayman GTR Track Battle Vid - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Was lucky enough to get an invite by the Evo guys to take part in the shooting of one of their Track Battle vids the other week. Spent a great day at Blyton Park shooting the film and generally messing around on an empty circuit. What a lifestyle to have! Anyway, the outcome was very interesting. Certainly not what I was expecting. But I can confirm that there was absolutely no "set up" or "staging" in the result. Jethro wasn't quite as aggressive with my car (out of respect) as he was with the Cayman, particularly over the big berms on the chicane that led onto the back straight. But within a couple of tenths I'd have to say the times were representative on the day. The track was actually running very slow. The whole circuit was underwater the day before so wasn't offering up much grip anywhere. Great fun though http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTv1iNB9gJA&lis...

At least this EVO video has a shred of meaning and features 2 cars which you could witness at a trackday without laughing at them. Were the timed laps the arse out examples edited into the video or properly fast laps extracting the best from both sets of tyres ? You can tell he adores the 6

What tyres were both cars running?

The timed laps were as restrained as possible, obviously. But the track was so green and both cars were really set up for oversteer rather than flat-out pace that even on the fastest timed laps there was quite a bit of slip and quite a few corrections needed. I spent a bit of time playing with the tyre pressures of both cars to try and get the most out of both. I was actually very surprised how good the Pirelli tyre on the GTS was. It offered fantastic grip considering the track and was easily capable of taking the heat on 2-3 flyers.

Steve Rance said: What tyres were both cars running? Pirelli P-Zero on the Cayman and Yoko AD08R's on the GT3. The Yokos had done about 250 miles.

Interesting outcome indeed. Very well matched.

How much lap time would PDK have been worth?

mores the point how much time is ditching the Pirelli P-Zero worth as they are really s t.

IanHg said: How much lap time would PDK have been worth? As a guide the sequential in the 997 cup is worth a second on the H pattern 996 Cup. As an aside, odd to see so much oversteer on the GT3. I would expect to see very few minor corrections on a lap. Nice little film though.

Great little video. Having just read your article in a certain Porsche mag were you testing your new coolant out? That's made me want to go and rag mine around now but my skills are well short of those exhibited in the video even with a newly set up geo and Cup2s...one day it may all click into place though

My old road car Steve remember buying some cup Discs from you once ........nice to see again , well done Jack enjoy. Peter

super little video, thanks for posting. which pads u running ?

Steve Rance said: As an aside, odd to see so much oversteer on the GT3. Steve You say this is odd what are the main geo set up parameters that create oversteer in a GT3? Thanks

hunter 66 said: My old road car Steve remember buying some cup Discs from you once ........nice to see again , well done Jack enjoy. Peter Hi Peter, Yes indeed. Going well too. Great little thing. Spa and Zaandvoort in it next week. Jack

Atom Ant said: Steve You say this is odd what are the main geo set up parameters that create oversteer in a GT3? Thanks In my experience it's rear toe and ARB settings that fundamentally change the behaviour at the rear. I do like it set with quite a lot of oversteer. I like to feel the car moving around a lot more than most. I run a relatively soft front ARB and stuff rear ARB. When this vid was shot it was definitely running with too little toe in, especially in one side, which did make it very wayward. As I said above, great fun, but definitely not the fastest set up.

seawise said: super little video, thanks for posting. which pads u running ? RS29's at the front and RS14's at the rear. It's the rears that make all the noise you can hear in the vid.

seawise said: super little video, thanks for posting. which pads u running ? RS29's at the front and RS14's at the rear. It's the rears that make all the noise you can hear in the vid.

jackwood said: In my experience it's rear toe and ARB settings that fundamentally change the behaviour at the rear. I do like it set with quite a lot of oversteer. I like to feel the car moving around a lot more than most. I run a relatively soft front ARB and stuff rear ARB. When this vid was shot it was definitely running with too little toe in, especially in one side, which did make it very wayward. As I said above, great fun, but definitely not the fastest set up. We ran full stiff front and one off full stiff on the rear to get optimium. Your set up will be VERY over steery. You will find a lot more time on a lap - if thats what you were seeking - by changing to that roll bar set up but you would have to work the front of the car to get the speed though.

I have a .1 RS and the 996 has similar performance to my car. So based on this test, a cayman on road tyres is as fast as my car on track tyres, around a track. Consider me enlightened, I would have bet a few de neros and lost them.

Thanks for sharing. Enjoyed that. 6 GT3 set to become an even more desirable car. New Cayman is a pocket rocket.

Steve Rance said: jackwood said: In my experience it's rear toe and ARB settings that fundamentally change the behaviour at the rear. I do like it set with quite a lot of oversteer. I like to feel the car moving around a lot more than most. I run a relatively soft front ARB and stuff rear ARB. When this vid was shot it was definitely running with too little toe in, especially in one side, which did make it very wayward. As I said above, great fun, but definitely not the fastest set up. We ran full stiff front and one off full stiff on the rear to get optimium. Your set up will be VERY over steery. You will find a lot more time on a lap - if thats what you were seeking - by changing to that roll bar set up but you would have to work the front of the car to get the speed though. Thanks. Like I said, I know it's not fast, but I'm not racing anyone and it's a nice playful set up. Maybe not representative of the fastest a GT3 can be, but then the Cayman was on a road geo and road tyres as well. I had no experience with those Yokos either, so can't say they were dialed in to their optimum pressures, and the rear toe was out quite a bit and the rake was also way out on the Yokos as it had previously been set up on some part-worn Pirelli Trofeos that seem a completely different profile to the AD08's. There are lots of reasons why the result was as it was. You could change a dozen things on each car and end up with the same results or completely different results going either way. I see this more of a snapshot of 2 cars, on one day, with one driver are capable of given limited time and zero optimisation. Basically what would happen if two similar guys turned up to a trackday in these two cars would hope to achieve (given a bit more skill than I've got )

Liquid1 said: I have a .1 RS and the 996 has similar performance to my car. So based on this test, a cayman on road tyres is as fast as my car on track tyres, around a track. Consider me enlightened, I would have bet a few de neros and lost them. Caveated by the ARB setup on the jackwood's car and Steve's comments above, I guess.

braddo said: Liquid1 said: I have a .1 RS and the 996 has similar performance to my car. So based on this test, a cayman on road tyres is as fast as my car on track tyres, around a track. Consider me enlightened, I would have bet a few de neros and lost them. Caveated by the ARB setup on the jackwood's car and Steve's comments above, I guess. And add in the fact that my car wasn't thrown mercilessly at the berms and curbs like the Cayman was

jackwood said: Thanks. Like I said, I know it's not fast, but I'm not racing anyone and it's a nice playful set up. Maybe not representative of the fastest a GT3 can be, but then the Cayman was on a road geo and road tyres as well. I had no experience with those Yokos either, so can't say they were dialed in to their optimum pressures, and the rear toe was out quite a bit and the rake was also way out on the Yokos as it had previously been set up on some part-worn Pirelli Trofeos that seem a completely different profile to the AD08's. There are lots of reasons why the result was as it was. You could change a dozen things on each car and end up with the same results or completely different results going either way. I see this more of a snapshot of 2 cars, on one day, with one driver are capable of given limited time and zero optimisation. Basically what would happen if two similar guys turned up to a trackday in these two cars would hope to achieve (given a bit more skill than I've got ) This, he drove the Cayman very hard, but off course it was not his or a readers car. He gave your car a lot more respect. The Cayman could of being on stickier R-compound semi tyres, but if what you say about the track then the Pzero would indeed be pretty good, the new Pzero is an exceptionally good tyre, far better than the older one from a couple years back, its not quite upto MPSS standards but its close. Both cars could have being faster but the outcome would still be the same, outcome still pretty much identical. The new Cayman and Cayman before it are damn quick cars, they are not slow by any sort of imagination at all. But saying that neither are the standard 911's, look at the 997 C2S and 991 C2S lap time at the Ring, surprisingly quick. Cayman, Boxster or 911 they are all sports cars that are all incredible to drive, but for me I love 911 dynamics and even if its not the fastest its the one I prefer driving, but by all accounts the 911 is quicker especially in GT3 form when on track in the dry.

End of the day the car designs are separated by some 11+ years...so one would expect them to be closer together in terms of real world performance. The difference is then in how they feel to drive and what it takes to extract the performance. I was at the ring last week in a 996 GT3 and on one spirited lap was followed by a new cayman (not exactly sure what model but possibly a GTS). I was impressed by how much it kept up by on the straighish bits - I was quicker in the corners and overall marginally quicker but not by as much as I expected. Of course...not a great test as if Sabine was driving the cayman she would have left me far behind!

Sabine was there on the Thursday, but with her RS

rrroro said: Sabine was there on the Thursday, but with her RS was she holding you up as well mate?

I heard Sabine's chopping it in for a Cayman GTS

Jack Manthey wing would have shaved a second off - you know it makes sense......

Nothing to add apart from nice little vid. That Cayman seems like a good bit of kit but I still have never really warmed to them. Much better than the previous shape now though.

Great vid. Really enjoyed that. I have done 1500 miles in my humble 981 Cayman S in the last week and it is starting to really impress. Experience at the Anglesey circuit alongside my pal's 997.2 GT3 corroborated the video's findings - to my utter amazement at the time.

I don't normally bother with such things, but out of interest what are the 'ring times for the 996 GT3 and the 981 S or GTS? It seems to me that the 981 chassis has really moved the game on a bit, certainly over the 987 chassis, and brought it up to 996/997 levels. What other explanation can there be?

keep it lit said: rrroro said: Sabine was there on the Thursday, but with her RS was she holding you up as well mate? Lol I wish, maybe in a few years she'll see me flashing my... headlights ... in her rear view

jackwood said: I don't normally bother with such things, but out of interest what are the 'ring times for the 996 GT3 and the 981 S or GTS? It seems to me that the 981 chassis has really moved the game on a bit, certainly over the 987 chassis, and brought it up to 996/997 levels. What other explanation can there be? they just keep making the front track wider and upping the BHP it's prob got more BHP than Porsche state, the x73 car also uses a much stiffer rear ARB. The CSL did the 7.50 Ring time all those years ago. As I have said before all chassis imo are stiff enough to cock a wheel, the 981 front track really helps hence why adding front only spacers to a 987.2 is like driving a new car. ALso a big change in the R and the 981 x73 is the much stiffer rear ARB which brings the car to life with more over steer and less under steer. All these cars can outdrive us all imo if set up for the job in hand, it's more about balls and risk regarding track times. hence why race cars crash at almost every event and track day drivers tend to drive at 80% to save their cars. I know ebach now have developed a full adjustable ARB kit along with 3 of the top indies to fit to a Cayman or Boxster, or just fit the R ARB. Spyder owners would do well to look at this kit as Porsche kept the ARB the same and the Spyder does not over steer at all. but on tighter tracks the SPyder has proven to be faster due to NOT over steering out of the tight bends, all depends what you want. but the days of driver feel have just about left us all, and it's all now rear steering, magic diffs, PDK etc and no performance is left in the basic chassis . I have driven a PASM GTS on track and it feels lifeless and I would say would be a few seconds of a 981 x73 car a lap. Add in some rain and you could well be slower in a 981 due to the steering feel alone. IF you are going to track a car then the 996 GT3 is a great car with ajustments all standard, if you want that feel on the road then the R is the better car on the road, we are already seeing the R put in better times than the GT3 car at the Sprint series Porsche do and that R runs stock geo/parts. So not slagging off any thing, but some cars are better in some areas. the R being the very last car Porsche have built with passive dampers, a real diff and proper steering, so if you want new/warranty/ up to date PCM etc than the R is the last of Porsche cars with full on feel. owners are moving to the R every day, from Caterhams, GT3's, Lotus etc I get emails every week about a new R owner from one of these brands. remember the GTS is only that good when speced with a passive set up and stiff ARB's and then add buckets to it and it's a 75k car !! Nice as it is it's not worth to me my R and another 35k esp with that steering feel although it's the best of the new cars and you do get used to it.

Like a blind man teaching people how to see

I watched that vid last night and enjoyed it - two lovely cars. Wondered why Jethro wore the 3 point belt and not the harness that was flapping around behind him. I'm a wuss so would have been wearing both!

jackal said: Like a blind man teaching people how to see lol

jackwood said: I don't normally bother with such things, but out of interest what are the 'ring times for the 996 GT3 and the 981 S or GTS? It seems to me that the 981 chassis has really moved the game on a bit, certainly over the 987 chassis, and brought it up to 996/997 levels. What other explanation can there be? Apparently, Porsche says 7:53 for the Cayman GTS. Horst van Saurma did 7:54 on his second lap in a 996.2 GT3. If you don't know, Sport Auto tests consist of one familiarisation lap then one lap to set a lap time. Apparently a Porsche test driver (Rohrl?) managed 7:49 - as published in Autobild magazine.

mrdemon said: The CSL did the 7.50 Ring time all those years ago. Yes, on cup tyres.

agtlaw said: Yes, on cup tyres. Yes so it would be faster now on cup 2's. Every one is using to get today's times ;-p

mrdemon said: they just keep making the front track wider and upping the BHP it's prob got more BHP than Porsche state, the x73 car also uses a much stiffer rear ARB. The CSL did the 7.50 Ring time all those years ago. As I have said before all chassis imo are stiff enough to cock a wheel, the 981 front track really helps hence why adding front only spacers to a 987.2 is like driving a new car. ALso a big change in the R and the 981 x73 is the much stiffer rear ARB which brings the car to life with more over steer and less under steer. All these cars can outdrive us all imo if set up for the job in hand, it's more about balls and risk regarding track times. hence why race cars crash at almost every event and track day drivers tend to drive at 80% to save their cars. I know ebach now have developed a full adjustable ARB kit along with 3 of the top indies to fit to a Cayman or Boxster, or just fit the R ARB. Spyder owners would do well to look at this kit as Porsche kept the ARB the same and the Spyder does not over steer at all. but on tighter tracks the SPyder has proven to be faster due to NOT over steering out of the tight bends, all depends what you want. but the days of driver feel have just about left us all, and it's all now rear steering, magic diffs, PDK etc and no performance is left in the basic chassis . I have driven a PASM GTS on track and it feels lifeless and I would say would be a few seconds of a 981 x73 car a lap. Add in some rain and you could well be slower in a 981 due to the steering feel alone. IF you are going to track a car then the 996 GT3 is a great car with ajustments all standard, if you want that feel on the road then the R is the better car on the road, we are already seeing the R put in better times than the GT3 car at the Sprint series Porsche do and that R runs stock geo/parts. So not slagging off any thing, but some cars are better in some areas. the R being the very last car Porsche have built with passive dampers, a real diff and proper steering, so if you want new/warranty/ up to date PCM etc than the R is the last of Porsche cars with full on feel. owners are moving to the R every day, from Caterhams, GT3's, Lotus etc I get emails every week about a new R owner from one of these brands. remember the GTS is only that good when speced with a passive set up and stiff ARB's and then add buckets to it and it's a 75k car !! Nice as it is it's not worth to me my R and another 35k esp with that steering feel although it's the best of the new cars and you do get used to it. For a change, I do agree with alot of what you just stated!!

NIgt3 said: For a change, I do agree with alot of what you just stated!! I was thinking the same thing

mrdemon said: Yes so it would be faster now on cup 2's. Every one is using to get today's times ;-p The Michelin cup tyre was standard equipment on the CSL - but it was slower than contemporary 996 GT3s on road tyres.

Hi Jack sorry busy day yesterday , but I an delighted that the car is with such a fantastic owner . Yes cup tyres especially at the ring help this car significantly . Enjoy Spa and the track days if you are in UK on weekend of the 25 th July come an see us at the Classic ( we will be running a 993 GT2R and RSR ) for a beer and steak.. Regards Peter

Either way the cayman is a quick car. Very impressive performance.

agtlaw said: The Michelin cup tyre was standard equipment on the CSL - but it was slower than contemporary 996 GT3s on road tyres. Not strictly true http://www.m3csl.de/misc_csl_supertest.php

trawler said: Not strictly true http://www.m3csl.de/misc_csl_supertest.php You're right, I was thinking of the 996 GT3 RS. HVS did 7:47 on standard rubber - 3 seconds faster than the CSL on cups.