Where did the thread "Sellers beware of..." go....???

Hi folks, As you probably noticed - I soft deleted the thread. And I know that's NOT going to be a popular decision, so I apologize to those who feel otherwise! , but there are a couple of reasons.... First - and most importantly, Gary did, in fact - receive his funds (finally).... Second - there was a lot of personal information shared on too many individuals. To go in and sanitize it - would have been like trying to edit every other post... Third - I was contacted by the person in reference who asked that it be removed (for obvious reasons). Since there were some posts (meant in jest) that could be construed in court as being otherwise - soft deleting it was probably the best option for now. Fourth - and probably most important..... Gary offered to do something which is way out of the norm for any Rennlister. He offered to donate the funds to Rennlist - without expectation of anything in return. He did it just because he could... I will publicly decline to accept them, as based on what he's been through to collect them - probably falls far short of his time/effort invested in this whole ordeal.. But - for his offer - and simply stepping outside the box, I'd also like to welcome our newest Rennlist Lifetime member - "gcohen" Gary - and all - thanks! John D.

John - I don't disagree with your decision to "soft delete" that thread. I am glad to hear that Gary got his money back. Also, I think it was very nice of you to appoint Gary as Rennlist Lifetime Member. Well done!

I think this was wise. It would have been horrendous for this to backfire and end up in a libel suit. There are, sadly, precedents. But I'll be telling this story for a long time!

Well done John. I'll miss the thread but it was the right thing to do. I had a feeling you'd would give Lifetime Membership to Gary just for his offer, way to go!

While I do not 100% agree with the decision, it was your's to make and I respect your decision. But come on, one more for old times sake! I'm gonna join Hacker from the OT Forum and support the Dunkle Venier 08 campaign!

WOW! Thanks John and all of Rennlist . I guess it's good I decided to keep the car

Understand and respect the decision. I think everyone got something out of this, it is my hope that the person in question did also. thanks for the laughs...they were many. Gcohen - congratulations!!!

Sounds like the perfect ending to me.

Actually, while I have been meaning to do it for a while, this happy ending has inspired me to take a few minutes, pay up and finally become a Rennlist Member. I would encourage everyone who is a user and who repeatedly read this famous deleted thread to do the same. Just a bit more than the price of a movie and the entertainment value of that thread was definitely worth it on its own (not to mention all the other benefits). Come on users, sign up! If Gary offered a few hundred dollars, surely $17.95 won't kill anyone. ML

Awesome that he kept his money AND got a lifetime membership!! The thread should have stayed. It's all protected speech...

John, While it was entirely your decision to make, I think you are being exceptionally cautious about the possibility of a libel suit. And, while I do understand exceptional caution, I think the removal was a mistake. My concern is that the removal of the thread deprives future potential scam victims (including Rennlisters) of information they could use to protect themselves. It is apparent to me that the individual in question is a young scam artist who is well on his way to a life of crime. Had the e46 forums deleted their threads, gcohen wouldn't have known as much as he did, and may not have been able to get his money back. Worse, he might have fallen victim to a greater scam, potentially the loss of his car. In that sense, the individual got exactly what he wanted to get from his $300: the removal of the well-founded public allegations against him. Absent those public allegations, I believe he never would have paid the debt. Thanks for running this excellent forum, and thanks for allowing us to express our opinions on your decisions. Best, CP

John D- Way to go! What a great ending! GCohen- You are now one of the most famous Rennlist Members ever! No one will ever mess with you again. Hopefully, in the future there will be a compromise and the thread will make a reappearance and not become a legend told by old rennlisters to their children. Long live Rennlist!!!!!!!

Gary, I am glad it worked out for you in the long run. It is amazing how everyone came together to address a certain issue. Although the method was somewhat harsh (nahhh) it worked. John, I would like to propose a proactive action whereas Rennlist has an avenue to communicate feedback on individuals. This can be a section for scammers, seller vs buyer issues, etc...

Technically it is NOT protected speech. You need to go back and read your law books on protected speech and defamation (particualarly libel). While I think it was a hilarious thread, we all need to understand that we flexed out Rennlist muscle, got the desired outcome and the correct (as much as some don't want it be) outcome was taken by John. Sure, the guy was a scumbag and scammer of many (see the bmw boards) but he did pay the money he owed.

Us calling him is a scammer etc. is our opinions based on the knowledge we have - PROTECTED SPEECH. Us making fun of him falls under the parody or satire laws , in which you are "legally" entitled to make fun of someone, public figure or otherwise - PROTECTED SPEECH. You show me where he has any damages based on libel! edit: An example of libel would be saying. Did you hear? He stole a car and was in jail for 2 years, where he was sodomized and turned into someones b1tch. THAT would be libel, an outright lie and defemation. These were parodies, NOT defamation!!!

Oh Gant. Such the antagonista.

Nah, just responding to your statement.

I probably would have forked over the 18 bucks at some point, but this last week has been better that a good Seinfeld episode. I am now a member. I just have to find my Pcar...

Welcome aboard Tino! Gant....responding is one thing but to be responding in ignorance is what is at issue. Once again, bored with you. Time to unscubcribe to this thread.

I don't think you really want to have this conversation publicly. Setting aside any individual liability, Rennlist's exposure turns on whether it is considered a common carrier, a distributor or a publisher. If the latter, they are potentially liable for content. Regardless of how you may interpret this, the courts have been scarily inconsistent in theirs. I like Rennlist a lot. I think the sacrifice of this thread to protect the bigger asset is a good tradeoff. I'm all for free speech, but the people who were speaking on this thread weren't the ones taking the risks. My .02, anyway.

Point taken, although I like the idea of free thoughts and idea's on a public forum without being quelled.

IMO, Sean may have had a colorable claim - whether he would win or not is really just speculation. However, an aggressive attorney could easily bring suit, and thre would be a lot of money "given" to the attorneys for both sides - with no benefit to Rennlist. Whilie I think knowledge available to the community is a noble cause, I also think a soft delete is a very cheap insurance policy. -td

Typicall...

Good man. That makes two of us. Any more out there?

John, Way to go!. I fully understand your decision and support it 100%. We had our laughs (great laughs) and I'm glad we can move on from this now. And Gary congratulations on your lifetime membership, it certainly is well deserved! P.s. Anyone has a copy of programmatore's artwork?

Not to further the thought pattern, but had such a claim been made then the defense would have been to show that allegations have a basis in fact. My guess...and it is only a guess...is that there would have been a RL and BMW Forum pile-on and if any of them are true, he would have a problem. Given the variety of things I read on the BMW forums and the very strong allegations, unless they were all "made-up" independently, then I doubt anyone...including "this person", would want to subject themselves to that. So yes, any risk would be very low...and if not I would have, as I am sure many others, contributed to the "defense fund". I would also say that I was utterly impressed by the restraint, satire as this whole thing evolved. It is too easy in cyber space for a mob mentality to develop and cross the line. RL'er's didn't even come close. There were a couple of times it started to head in the wrong direction, but was brought back. The focus was on the satire...for a desired result, which was achieved!!! In comparision to what I read on the other forums, you all are a very professional bunch.

Desired result achieved, John D. is a classy guy.

I think it's the right decision, especially because bank account info of a member made it to the thread. I just feel fortunate to have witnessed one of the greatest moments of rennlist history.

No, I think it would technically have been hearsay. Sadly, these things don't work that way. Guy lawyers up, counsel files against RL, makes a persuasive case that RL is a publisher basis that they moderate the forums (a key element in that definition), claims damage because he had to shut his own site down and the defamatory stuff was getting front page on Google, RL's insurer pays him off because it's cheaper than fighting it, the precedents are so inconsistent, and guy eventually paid up so there was no harm caused. The cavalry never gets to come to the rescue. This was the right thing.

you - lawyer (educated guess ) me - not I defer to the experts.... (but personnally no amount of money would be worth being labeled the guy that shut down Rennlist...I can't imagine how ones life could be fun after that)

No, not a lawyer! Totally faking it. This is just experience talking. My world is marketing and in this business you wind up being a student of this stuff, especially on the internet, just to stay alive. My legal advice and two bucks will buy you a cup of coffee. I'm very sorry if I misled you.

If the alleged scammer sued for libel, one of the best defenses available to the defendant(s) would be to prove that the statements at issue were true. Truth is an absolute defense to libel. The truth of the statements having been put at issue, testimony from the e46 victims would be fine. I think the posts themselves would not be sufficient. On the other hand, if the statements at issue concerned the reputation of the alleged scammer, rather than his actual conduct, I think the posts themselves might be admissible. I would defer my opinion to that of a defamation specialist, if any cares to opine.

No argument. My worry wasn't for the posters, but for Rennlist. Anyhow, I should probably shut my pie hole. No point in giving our Friend a seminar in tort law. (Get it? Pie hole? Tort? I slay myself...).

Scammers have no conscience. In fact they feed off their "wins".

Especially since he obviously has demonstrated a desire to have his cake and eat it too...

I was hoping for a little humor today and I was a little sad to see this. I do belive however that most of us would have done the same thing if we were in the position. This "guy" deserves all the bad press that he recieved.

Pie-hole?, tort?, cake? tough crowd.....we are collectively going through thread withdrawal...

It was a good thread. It would be nice to have a thread warning others of these potential scammers and or scamming methods. Although this individual cannot be considered a scammer in regards to the PPI and Gcohen. It did "force" him into paying up when he was refused to pay in a timely manner. I think linking our forums with others to watch out for potential scammers would be valuable. People would be more aware of folks like this one and others (the other 996 thread "...cleaned out my garage...") It always seems that there is one person from the forum that gets dinged and then the truth about the scammer comes out after the fact. Just my $0.02. My wife sure enjoyed the thread too.

The thread showed the power of the Rennlist community at it's best. J.D. has hard enough time w/all the b.s. that goes on in OT, so I completely see his decision to delete it - I'm just glad a got to see it and get a chuckle or two before it was gone.

Some of these replies crack me up... And - just coming home from a long day - I needed a few chuckles.... OK - a few have asked what the heck is "soft deleted"? Answer: Soft deleted means that thread could come back at any time. What would cause that? If "someone" ever didn't live up to their obligation to another Rennlister (member, user, site visitor, etc..) that thread could - as if by magic - reappear... Geee - thanks.... So, are you telling me that: A) If I get inebriated one night; B) trip over the servers power cords and connections; and C) the Rennlist Servers short out; and D) I hit my head on the corner of the desk during the fall; and E) get knocked unconscience; and F) develop amnesia from being unconscience; and G) forget my name, whereabouts - and that I run a website; and H) also forget to reboot the servers... That I should ALSO book one-way tickets to Boliva (well, it won't be Boliva, now that I posted it would be Boliva - as then you'd know where to find me - so I won't be going there...) BTW: do they have Porsches in Boliva?? My point is - I wouldn't want 250,000+/- folks who visit this Forum to be looking for me as the guy that shut down Rennlist.... You left me speechless - which is tough to do. But, I'll tell you - running Rennlist is no cake-walk. In fact, something is always burning in the kitchen, and where there is smoke, there is fire - which you should never cry out in a crowded theater, as some would say that is trouble brewing, or trouble waiting to happen..... I could go on - but I bet'cha hope I don't... I would agree... Sort of like "feedback" forum. I have some code I've been working on - BUT - it's for feedback on only transactions that are "Rennlist aware". For example - Gary's post in the old thread *would* qualify, as he listed his car on Rennlist. By comparison, eBay feedback/transactions would not - if they were *not* listed in either the Forums or the Rennlist Classifieds... Let me revisit that code once I get the Rennlist video interface finished with "DareDevil" ( http://www.rennpository.com/ ) where any Rennlister (member/user) can post, host and feed a video into any post/thread on Rennlist as simply as we embed pictures or images today. Anyway - my thanks for all the input - support - and more importantly - recognizing Gary's status a "Rennlist Lifer".... Best to you! John D.

Man, it may be the right decision, but I feel like my dad just busted up my kegger...

That one sent Pepsi out my nose!!

Great job John As I was a part(almost victim) of the cleaned out my garage thread I had no problem with it. Probably because my skin was in the game. This thread bothered me at times as it was a little too far out for me. But in the end it all worked out.

It's touching to know what we were all able to make a difference.........Divided we fall....... UNITED we had a GREAT thread and the BEST Laugh........Thank you Rennlist.....!

Holy crap! I was thinking to myself today while shop-vacing the garage corners (normally I put 100% into the job, but today was different). This is a scene out of Oceans 11! Think it through here. Gcohen opens a thread talking about some dude who stiffs him on a PPI. The scammers is a known scammer in other forums. Gcohen says he'll donate the PPI money if he ever gets it back. We all ridicule the scammer. Scammer posts one post. Then the scammer "pays". Gcohen gets a lifetime membership. WOW clever!!!!!!! Well I doubt it but there could always be an internet Oceans 13? Congrates on the membership, I hope we all avoid experiences like yours.

Oh crap Dave, now you have now you�ve done it! That really was a cheap shot! Bruce in going to sue you for �defamation of character� because you called him a lawyer. BTW, apologies to the lawyers out there... just having a little fun!

Yes, John, that is EXACTLY what we are telling you. If that were to happen, WE WOULD HUNT YOU DOWN AND FIND YOU! We would be dogged in our pursuit and merciless once we found you. Once we had the passwords to get Rennlist up and running again, then, and only then, would we leave you to wallow in the squalor of the third-world country in which you have chosen to "retire." After all, we DO care about you! Any questions????

Wait, you think that calling an ad guy a lawyer is an insult? I want to live in America. Porsches are so cheap, and they think that lawyers are worse than me... sigh... it's like... paradise...

As a lawyer from a family of ad men, I think I'll go drink by myself now. And maybe cry a little. Wait. I have a Porsche. I'll just drive instead.

Thanks for the explaination John I support your decision. It's easy for some to dismiss the potential liability, however as Rennlist is your baby (and the potential liability is yours) it is your call. Thank you very much for running a fantastic site!!

Great perspective!!