With intro of the GT4, how does that impact other models? - Page 3 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

As the title suggests. What sort of impact does that have to the base model, S and GTS? Whilst I would like to move into a GT4, I think being in my S for only 1 year does not make total sense financially.. Thanks G

No impact - just like the GT3 does not impact other 911 models.

All other model values will spiral upwards reaching unprecedented new highs.....

The biggest impact will probably be other makes around that price range

As has been said - no impact. It's the introduction of the GTS that might well impact your/my S. The future impact of the flat 4 is likely to affect us more. If it is not well received (and it won't be to some) then it might help our (and base 981) secondhand values, particularly if this happens relatively soon so that there aren't so many 981 6 cylinders around.

It's an interesting one, because for me the GT3 has more distance between the regular model and so isn't comparable: - Shorter gearing (not ideal for motorway cruising) - Jiggly ride - Loss of rear seats - Less sound proofing / worse NVH - Not a full range of options available - Unlikely to feel comfortable parking it in your average city centre However, as people have proven, the GT3 can be a 'daily', especially if you're not doing many miles. With the Cayman / GT4 though, it doesn't have shorter gearing and it never had rear seats! Therefore, it's a much tougher call. However, for me, (and i'm only 30!) i could not do my usual 1,500 miles a month in a car with a GT3/GT4 ride. A couple of times in the GT3 i've had to make a pistop to have a pee; and i couldn't be dealing with that every day. I would also not park a GT3/GT4 on the road - where i often have to. Moreover, i like to keep special cars for special occasions.

Nobody apart from the roughly 150 people (who already have their order confirmed) will be able to buy a GT4 so it will have zero affect on Cayman S/GTS. Cayman GTS will have negative affect on the S, as it has nothing but benefits over the S. Better spec, better looking etc and for roughly the same price as a well specced S.

If it's good, and the motoring journos are salivating over it, then it will become the latest 'must have', new kid on the block, and may well hurt GT3 values.

Koln-RS said: If it's good, and the motoring journos are salivating over it, then it will become the latest 'must have', new kid on the block, and may well hurt GT3 values. Almost every new car gets overrated by the press on introduction (nothing to do with the wining and dining in some exotic location, I'm sure) It's only a few months later when the "buts" and "apart froms" and "despites" surface and you get a more balanced picture.

Koln-RS said: If it's good, and the motoring journos are salivating over it, then it will become the latest 'must have', new kid on the block, and may well hurt GT3 values. They are and will salivate over it but unless they start building more GT3's then I cant see that happening and even if they do it may mean some 991 Gt3's come back closer to the original purchase price point where you will find more buyers. In the main however you'll find people either want a GT3 or a GT4

DMC2 said: Nobody apart from the roughly 150 people (who already have their order confirmed) will be able to buy a GT4 so it will have zero affect on Cayman S/GTS. Cayman GTS will have negative affect on the S, as it has nothing but benefits over the S. Better spec, better looking etc and for roughly the same price as a well specced S. The GTS isn't a model, let's face it. It's a 'Buy 2, Get 1 Free' deal' - a way of Porsche giving a discount on their expensive options list without really admitting it.

This chain is all about speculation, but fun to speculate, in my personal view I agree with the earlier point made in this chain, I say this as a GTS owner 1. B2b factory standards the GTS is a better car than the S so it will hurt S prices over time 3. There is not enough gap between the GT4 and GTS so this will prevent the GTS achieving its full potential as a residual over time 4. If anything the introduction of the GT4 will help over time the standard Cayman as there is more daylight in range (maybe not in price but ease to shift) 5. Given the GT4 is track focused I believe the GTS residual will not be heavily impacted, if anything the GT3 is at risk (i.e. ppl trying to pickup a GT3 2nd hand) 6. If next year the pot4 is announced as part of the Gen 2 refresh (which I don't expect tbh just yet) then this would again most benefit the GTS and GT4 Personally I love the look of the GT4 and doubt the hype is just hype. Infact I think it will go on to be a very special, rare-ish and converted car overtime. You only have to look at the Cayman R prices still today to validate this potential.

DMC2 said: Nobody apart from the roughly 150 people (who already have their order confirmed) will be able to buy a GT4. Nobody knows for sure that they'll get a car. I'm within the top 5 at my OPC, had an LOI in for a while, paid my deposit and submitted my spec. I'm hopeful of getting a car but really I don't know for sure.

hondansx said: The GTS isn't a model, let's face it. It's a 'Buy 2, Get 1 Free' deal' - a way of Porsche giving a discount on their expensive options list without really admitting it. I absolutely agree (as an S owner I would wouldn't I) but from all the posting on this forum I don't think most perceive it that way. Given that there are a number of Buy2 get 1 free options that I'm not fussed about and couple I positively don't want, for ME it's a bad buy - but I think I'm in a minority.

m33ufo said: Nobody knows for sure that they'll get a car. I'm within the top 5 at my OPC, had an LOI in for a while, paid my deposit and submitted my spec. I'm hopeful of getting a car but really I don't know for sure. There are certain buyers who know they will get one though.

hondansx said: The GTS isn't a model, let's face it. It's a 'Buy 2, Get 1 Free' deal' - a way of Porsche giving a discount on their expensive options list without really admitting it. Eh? It has different rear lights, different front bodywork, tweaked suspension and geometry, slight power increase, alcantara interior, bespoke interior (if you pay for it) and tweaked exhaust note. And that is over and above the cheap kit that is thrown in. I had a high spec Cayman S and my GTS didn't cost that much more. Maybe it is just me but I think it is a distinct model which will hold a premium, same as the 911 GTS models.

DMC2 said: Eh? It has different rear lights, different front bodywork, tweaked suspension and geometry, slight power increase, alcantara interior, bespoke interior (if you pay for it) and tweaked exhaust note. And that is over and above the cheap kit that is thrown in. I had a high spec Cayman S and my GTS didn't cost that much more. Maybe it is just me but I think it is a distinct model which will hold a premium, same as the 911 GTS models. Who said it has tweaked suspension geometry? It has PASM which is an S option, and 20" wheels an S option, and different bodywork which is now an S option, a sports exhaust which is an S option.. Yes the interior is a bit different and it has a little more power - but that hardly constitutes a real new model. Sure, if you would spec most of those things on a S anyway, then the GTS is a very good buy. I DO think it will hold its premium - but precisely because many will view it as separate model - wrongly in my view.

DMC2 said: Eh? It has different rear lights, different front bodywork, tweaked suspension and geometry, slight power increase, alcantara interior, bespoke interior (if you pay for it) and tweaked exhaust note. And that is over and above the cheap kit that is thrown in. I had a high spec Cayman S and my GTS didn't cost that much more. Maybe it is just me but I think it is a distinct model which will hold a premium, same as the 911 GTS models. Who said it has tweaked suspension geometry? It has PASM which is an S option, and 20" wheels an S option, and different bodywork which is now an S option, a sports exhaust which is an S option.. Yes the interior is a bit different and it has a little more power - but that hardly constitutes a real new model. Sure, if you would spec most of those things on a S anyway, then the GTS is a very good buy. I DO think it will hold its premium - but precisely because many will view it as separate model - wrongly in my view.

Scooty100 said: Koln-RS said: If it's good, and the motoring journos are salivating over it, then it will become the latest 'must have', new kid on the block, and may well hurt GT3 values. They are and will salivate over it but unless they start building more GT3's then I cant see that happening and even if they do it may mean some 991 Gt3's come back closer to the original purchase price point where you will find more buyers. In the main however you'll find people either want a GT3 or a GT4 Gt4 and 991 GT3 will be miles apart as drivers cars......both great cars in their own right and one will compliment the other.....but no Cayman will have any noticeable affect on the 991 GT3 the abilities of which put it firmly in Speciale territory but at still 'sensible' money....hence the huge price rises over list seen of late.

bcr5784 said: Who said it has tweaked suspension geometry? It has PASM which is an S option, and 20" wheels an S option, and different bodywork which is now an S option, a sports exhaust which is an S option.. Yes the interior is a bit different and it has a little more power - but that hardly constitutes a real new model. Sure, if you would spec most of those things on a S anyway, then the GTS is a very good buy. I DO think it will hold its premium - but precisely because many will view it as separate model - wrongly in my view. Ooh, someone trolling GTS owners wanting a bite. Well, my GTS is most definitely a different model, coz S owners can't order the GTS badge from Porsche Stick that up your jumper mate

You have to be a certain type to drive a car around with a wing when not on a race track .......... And I like a big wing on track...

hunter 66 said: You have to be a certain type to drive a car around with a wing when not on a race track .......... And I like a big wing on track... Like a certain type of person that hints he's a racing driver?

hondansx said: It's an interesting one, because for me the GT3 has more distance between the regular model and so isn't comparable: - Shorter gearing (not ideal for motorway cruising) - Jiggly ride - Loss of rear seats - Less sound proofing / worse NVH - Not a full range of options available - Unlikely to feel comfortable parking it in your average city centre However, as people have proven, the GT3 can be a 'daily', especially if you're not doing many miles. With the Cayman / GT4 though, it doesn't have shorter gearing and it never had rear seats! Therefore, it's a much tougher call. However, for me, (and i'm only 30!) i could not do my usual 1,500 miles a month in a car with a GT3/GT4 ride. A couple of times in the GT3 i've had to make a pistop to have a pee; and i couldn't be dealing with that every day. I would also not park a GT3/GT4 on the road - where i often have to. Moreover, i like to keep special cars for special occasions. 30 and having to stop for a pee....wait till you get to 70 your be frightened to leave the house

i had an ariel atom, i could only manage 30 mins between toilet stops

TheAnimal said: No impact - just like the GT3 does not impact other 911 models. disagree, it is just another cayman model and the one at the top of the food chain at that without too much cost difference - i think it will impact sales of the higher priced cayman models negatively. it is mot like it sounds like a hardcore car, not that porsche produces any of those anymore anyway ignoring how some just cost a lot more than others

hunter 66 said: You have to be a certain type to drive a car around with a wing when not on a race track .......... And I like a big wing on track... I somehow can't see those who consider a rear wiper as ugly being comfortable with such an appendage. It is particularly vulgar-looking - makes Subaru and EVo ones look positively subtle.

I don't think it will have any major impact on Boxster/Cayman values, unless 000's of people trade up to one, in which case a lot of cars on the market may drive the used market down, but that's *highly* unlikely. What is more interesting is what it will do to 996 & 997 GT3 prices, these are going silly, possibly beccause the 991 GT3 is flappy paddle only, I can well see it putting the brakes on used GT3 prices. I'd much rather have a GT4 Cayman than a 911 GT3.

hunter 66 said: You have to be a certain type to drive a car around with a wing when not on a race track .......... And I like a big wing on track... I have only had this coment once in 5 years of GT3 ownership, from a chap who is a bit of a nob, thinks he is flash and hip and drives an R8. he thinks he knows about cars but knows very little and can't really drive for s t. You should feel honoured to share the same views as him. A GT3 wing is functional and has a purpose. They are not from halfords and stuck on with no more nails like a barried up corsa. There is a difference.

S1MMA said: I have only had this coment once in 5 years of GT3 ownership, from a chap who is a bit of a nob, thinks he is flash and hip and drives an R8. he thinks he knows about cars but knows very little and can't really drive for s t. You should feel honoured to share the same views as him. A GT3 wing is functional and has a purpose. They are not from halfords and stuck on with no more nails like a barried up corsa. There is a difference. Of course few people are going to make comments about the wing to your face, but, rightly or wrongly, people will make assumptions about you that they wouldn't make if it had a more discrete look. That is not a criticism - I am an ex Impreza owner and no-one commented on the wing on that, but I am absolutely sure that people made incorrect assumptions about me because of it. All that said, functional though it is, the way that Ferrari have gone about under car aero effects seems a lot more elegant way of going about it. The wing messes up view through the rear screen very badly too.

bcr5784 said: Of course few people are going to make comments about the wing to your face, but, rightly or wrongly, people will make assumptions about you that they wouldn't make if it had a more discrete look. That is not a criticism - I am an ex Impreza owner and no-one commented on the wing on that, but I am absolutely sure that people made incorrect assumptions about me because of it. All that said, functional though it is, the way that Ferrari have gone about under car aero effects seems a lot more elegant way of going about it. The wing messes up view through the rear screen very badly too. The point here is that making an assumption about a person through the car they drive, or the fact that it has a spoiler or not says more about the person making the assumption! How does a car define who you are? Or an optional extra? Or a piece of f king plastic? I think you need to get over yourself if you think that bucket seats and spoilers say anything about the person driving a car. I like to be know for who I am in my actions and deeds and the way I treat others, not the things I buy. Some people are just too materialistic I guess. If you are a because you are a then fine, you are not a because of a pair of shoes or a hairstyle, people just have different tastes. Better go and hack off my spoiler in case some f kwit or other thinks badly of me. Or not. I couldn't give a s t to be honest.

S1MMA said: Better go and hack off my spoiler in case some f kwit or other thinks badly of me. Or not. I couldn't give a s t to be honest. Hahahahah! You're driving a Porsche nobody thinks kindly of you, spoiler or not. It's like Gary Glitter worrying if people like his shoes.

S1MMA said: The point here is that making an assumption about a person through the car they drive, or the fact that it has a spoiler or not says more about the person making the assumption! How does a car define who you are? Or an optional extra? Or a piece of f king plastic? I think you need to get over yourself if you think that bucket seats and spoilers say anything about the person driving a car. I like to be know for who I am in my actions and deeds and the way I treat others, not the things I buy. Some people are just too materialistic I guess. If you are a because you are a then fine, you are not a because of a pair of shoes or a hairstyle, people just have different tastes. Better go and hack off my spoiler in case some f kwit or other thinks badly of me. Or not. I couldn't give a s t to be honest. I wish you'd read what I said, not what you completely incorrectly thought I thought. Like I said I drove an Impreza and I ignored the fact that some people regard it as chavvy - and therefore made assumptions about ME. And YES it says more about them than me. But I can't agree with ilduce that people generally take a negative stance because you drive a Porsche. This is my first Porsche and I find people very polite - let me into queues, mostly pull in to let me pass on the motorway etc. Not been true of all the cars I've owned. But I still think the wing looks like an afterthought - which it undoubtedly is - maybe a well engineered and effective afterthought, but an afterthought nevertheless.

MDahmen said: TheAnimal said: No impact - just like the GT3 does not impact other 911 models. disagree, it is just another cayman model and the one at the top of the food chain at that without too much cost difference - i think it will impact sales of the higher priced cayman models negatively. it is mot like it sounds like a hardcore car, not that porsche produces any of those anymore anyway ignoring how some just cost a lot more than others Once the gt4 finds it feet it will slow 997 gt3 prices down.

As I said earlier, a Cayman can never be a 911 and a 911 can never be Cayman. The 991 is much closer in dynamics to the Cayman. The 911 buyer perceives the GT3 to be the ultimate NA GT car. The Cayman buyer will perceive the GT4 in the same light. These are very different cars. The 911 is THE classic sports car and it has a huge following of discerning buyers. I do not think that values of 911's will be effected at all by the launch of the GT4. On the contrary, it's more likely that when the GT4 fades from the forefront of the 'next best thing' . It's values will fall against 'the next best thing'. But to be perfectly honest, if you are focussing on values - which many on here seem obsessed with - rather than the sheer enjoyment of driving the vehicle then you are completely missing the point.

The Cayman GT4 is a direct competitor for both the 996 GT3 and 997 GT3 models. They're all track/ fast road focused Porsche. It's a new v used decision but at circa £65k some current/ potential GT3 owners will go for a GT4. Whether it has any real impact will be down to numbers made, but I expect it to slow the rate of the GT3 price rise.

Fundamentally different cars. Mid engined V rear engined. One is about apex speed and one is about exit speed. Completely different driving experience. I undetstand your argument but in reality, the 991 is the direct competitor not the 911.

Steve Rance said: Fundamentally different cars. Mid engined V rear engined. One is about apex speed and one is about exit speed. Completely different driving experience. I undetstand your argument but in reality, the 991 is the direct competitor not the 911. But some have got out GT3 to buy a GT4 Lucky the low numbers would not see a flood of GT3 to market. Great time to sell a 10 year old leggy 997 for a profit to get into a brand new GT4 for the same money. I also know a few 991 gt3 owners doing the swap. I guess for those a GT4 has only cost them £25k to get into Due to the £40k they made on the GT3.

Unfortunately, these days buyers of GT3's are not buying the car for its performance. They are buying for its status and collectibility. So again, it's a different market and one that the GT4 will need to wait a long time to enjoy iconic status. If anything, the high values of the 996/7 GT3 will help the GT4. If they were still at the price levels that they were a few years ago I think it likely that the uptake on the GT4 would not be as strong. As it is, the Brands flagship motorsport derived GT 911 is no longer affordable or available. Try finding a good 996 or 997 GT3 with decent provenance. I would suggest that there are less than 10 in the same price bracket as the 130 GT4's that will soon land in the UK. If you are a collector, you'd be a brave/stupid man to come out of a 996/7 GT3 to buy a GT4.

Steve Rance said: Fundamentally different cars. Mid engined V rear engined. One is about apex speed and one is about exit speed. Completely different driving experience. I undetstand your argument but in reality, the 991 is the direct competitor not the 911. While that is true, it really depends on how good (fast in absolute terms) the GT4 is. Porsche have until now kept the Cayman firmly in its place below the 911. Despite that, if you look at this week's Autocar comparison test, they clearly prefer the handling of the Cayman GTS to the GT3 ON THE ROAD (on the track it might well be a different story) But with the GT4 have they let the genie out of the bottle? What if it is a match for the GT3 despite it's power deficit (indeed is that one of the reasons why it doesn't have PDK as an option - to hamper the on paper and on track performance?). While there will always be some who will choose a 911GT3 over a 981, either for nostagia, or simply because a 911 is different. But that will be a diminishing number if public perception of the relative performance of the two models swings continues to swing in favour of the 981.

If pace is all a driver is interested in, he'd be a fool if he's in anything other than a GTR. buyers understand the relevance of the 996 and 997 GT3, their Motorsport lineage and utterly unique quality of their hardware. If you think that buyers would switch away from that to gain a hypothetical second or so around the ring, You do them a dis service.

PorscheGT4 said: Steve Rance said: Fundamentally different cars. Mid engined V rear engined. One is about apex speed and one is about exit speed. Completely different driving experience. I undetstand your argument but in reality, the 991 is the direct competitor not the 911. But some have got out GT3 to buy a GT4 Lucky the low numbers would not see a flood of GT3 to market. Great time to sell a 10 year old leggy 997 for a profit to get into a brand new GT4 for the same money. I also know a few 991 gt3 owners doing the swap. I guess for those a GT4 has only cost them £25k to get into Due to the £40k they made on the GT3. I would suggest there are more 991 GT3 owners KEEPING their cars alongside a potential GT4 rather than selling their GT3 for the 4....imo these two comprise a reasonable contrast to justify owning both but as per previous posts the GT4 will never provide the driving experience of any GT3 997 991 or otherwise no matter how much the GT4 is talked up.......

Steve Rance said: Unfortunately, these days buyers of GT3's are not buying the car for its performance. They are buying for its status and collectibility. So again, it's a different market and one that the GT4 will need to wait a long time to enjoy iconic status. If anything, the high values of the 996/7 GT3 will help the GT4. If they were still at the price levels that they were a few years ago I think it likely that the uptake on the GT4 would not be as strong. As it is, the Brands flagship motorsport derived GT 911 is no longer affordable or available. Try finding a good 996 or 997 GT3 with decent provenance. I would suggest that there are less than 10 in the same price bracket as the 130 GT4's that will soon land in the UK. If you are a collector, you'd be a brave/stupid man to come out of a 996/7 GT3 to buy a GT4. Collector status is RS only, not normal GT3 models imo.

av185 said: I would suggest there are more 991 GT3 owners KEEPING their cars alongside a potential GT4 rather than selling their GT3 for the 4....imo these two comprise a reasonable contrast to justify owning both but as per previous posts the GT4 will never provide the driving experience of any GT3 997 991 or otherwise no matter how much the GT4 is talked up....... Very true, I only state I know a few selling the 991 gt3 to get a gt4 Most people are not rich people, so A991 gt3 might have been a stretch for some, now to turn that into £40k and thus end up with what is in real money a £25k GT4 You can see why people have done it ESP if they really wanted a manual GT3. Ofcouse there are people who can have loads of cars and buy what they want. I don't think the GT4 needs talking up, it is what it is, a manual 385bhp mid engine sports car which you can finally adjust to your liking, So many people will not mod a car even the R to make it a great car and want some thing off the shelf. Even though GT3 lca bolt straight on , not many do it ! My 1st port of call will be to get it on the geo rig and see what's going on with it. I would love to keep my R as a daily, but taking the risk on the Gt4 , the R might still be the better road car. With a few tweaks I cannot fault the R and it's getting a great following these days. For a road only £40k sports car the R is still amazing and imo has no other contest in the market.

Steve Rance said: If pace is all a driver is interested in, he'd be a fool if he's in anything other than a GTR. buyers understand the relevance of the 996 and 997 GT3, their Motorsport lineage and utterly unique quality of their hardware. If you think that buyers would switch away from that to gain a hypothetical second or so around the ring, You do them a dis service. Sounds like you're actually agreeing with me about the "facts", just disagreeing about the pull of heritage (and image). A good illustration is the price differential between the (base) 911 and the 981 - over £20K in the UK but only $8k in the US. The manufacturing costs or the 911 and 981 must be all but identical, but clearly the heritage/image of the 911 is worth far less in the US that the UK (and it's a vastly bigger market). The GTR comparison is rather extreme - a GTR is a brute of a car by comparison which won't appeal to everyone for that reason. Both the 981 and 911 are much more subtle cars - albeit different, but with a quite different appeal to a GTR. You could equally (invalidly) make a comparison with a Radical or Mono - some of which can easily blow away a 911 around a track - but certainly won't be a an alternative choice for hardly anyone. Only time will tell.

PorscheGT4 said: Collector status is RS only, not normal GT3 models imo. Absolutely. In the same way that a 73RS is collectable and the 73 2.7S isn't.

bcr5784 said: Sounds like you're actually agreeing with me about the "facts", just disagreeing about the pull of heritage (and image). A good illustration is the price differential between the (base) 911 and the 981 - over £20K in the UK but only $8k in the US. The manufacturing costs or the 911 and 981 must be all but identical, but clearly the heritage/image of the 911 is worth far less in the US that the UK (and it's a vastly bigger market). The GTR comparison is rather extreme - a GTR is a brute of a car by comparison which won't appeal to everyone for that reason. Both the 981 and 911 are much more subtle cars - albeit different, but with a quite different appeal to a GTR. You could equally (invalidly) make a comparison with a Radical or Mono - some of which can easily blow away a 911 around a track - but certainly won't be a an alternative choice for hardly anyone. Only time will tell. No I think that we disagree more fundamentally. Porsche trade on its motorsport heritage obliquely for all of its ranges. But the 996 and 997 GT3's are actual road legal representations of the race car that predominately has provided its motorsport success. They are de-tuned race cars with a pedigree second to none. Buyers of these cars understand that. It is a unique experience that informed buyers - and most GT3 buyers are very informed - value much more than I think you may credit.

Steve Rance said: No I think that we disagree more fundamentally. Porsche trade on its motorsport heritage obliquely for all of its ranges. But the 996 and 997 GT3's are actual road legal representations of the race car that predominately has provided its motorsport success. They are de-tuned race cars with a pedigree second to none. Buyers of these cars understand that. It is a unique experience that informed buyers - and most GT3 buyers are very informed - value much more than I think you may credit. I understand that very well - my son races/tests/instructs in Porsche GT3s of various specs and no-one viewing this forum would doubt it. But not everyone (and neither of us) is actually that bothered about the history - more about the here and now (sacriledge I know). If the lure of the history were really overwhelming then Porsche wouldn't have needed to be so protective of the 911 vis-a-vis the Cayman. It's no different to the V12 Ferrari heritage. There was a time that a REAL Ferrari had 12 cylinders - and maybe you don't remember the denigration of Ferrari Dinos with 6 and 8 cylinders - I do, by afficionados at least as loyal as 911 supporters. It's no different with Porsche, though it doesn't happen overnight. If, over time, the laws of physics prevail (as they are doing) and the 911 becomes the gentlemans GT (as it is doing) then the focused Porsche sportscars will all be mid engined. But I don't expect you to agree with that now - you might in 5 years time.

On saying the above, I think that the GT4 is probably the only current Porsche model that interests me. If I was an owner of a 991 GT3 l, I'd definately trade 'up' to a GT4 I still maintain, it's the 991 and the 991GT3 that will be most effected by this car

Excellent thread - many helpful posts, especially from Steve Rance. At half the cost to purchase a GT4 compared to the 991 GT3 at these heady levels, my money would be headed towards a GT4, and take a profit on the 991 GT3.

bcr5784 said: I understand that very well - my son races/tests/instructs in Porsche GT3s of various specs and no-one viewing this forum would doubt it. But not everyone (and neither of us) is actually that bothered about the history - more about the here and now (sacriledge I know). If the lure of the history were really overwhelming then Porsche wouldn't have needed to be so protective of the 911 vis-a-vis the Cayman. It's no different to the V12 Ferrari heritage. There was a time that a REAL Ferrari had 12 cylinders - and maybe you don't remember the denigration of Ferrari Dinos with 6 and 8 cylinders - I do, by afficionados at least as loyal as 911 supporters. It's no different with Porsche, though it doesn't happen overnight. If, over time, the laws of physics prevail (as they are doing) and the 911 becomes the gentlemans GT (as it is doing) then the focused Porsche sportscars will all be mid engined. But I don't expect you to agree with that now - you might in 5 years time. Of course, you make a very good point. Let me try to make two points This year I am privileged to race an incredibly rare and special car, (Owned and co driven by an equally rare and special Man I am add). It is a factory 911RSR that won Daytona in it's first attempt in 1973, beating - amongst other things - the Mid engined "prova' factory sports prototypes of Ferrari. these 'Prova' Sports prototypes cars were entered in a higher class but it beat them anyway. Cut forward 30 years when I started racing 911's. I had a quick look at my race results recently. So far, i have raced 53 times in Porsche 911's. Of these, 78% of race starts resulted in podiums, over half of which were race wins. Like the 1973RSR I mentioned earlier, Many of these wins/podiums were at the expense of mid engined cars. Some of which were ( like the 73RSR) entered in a higher class. So my first point. 35 years on and the 911 is still beating mid engined cars. Whilst I accept that progress - rather like Darwinian theory - can take some time, I would wager that the mid engined configuration is taking a while to prove itself the dominating configuration - here speaks a man who has raced mid engined sports cars with ground effect. My second point is regarding the 996 and 997 GT3 cars. These represent a moment in time when race car and road car almost merged into one ( the 996 more than the 997). It was seen before with the Dtype, Ctypes, 288GTO, GT40 and a few more. These cars are all part of an incredibly exclusive club of GT racing cars that happened upon road legal status. With the onset of Euro regs for road cars, I cannot see this happening again. So, my argument is 1. Do not under estimate the 911. 40 years on and it's still winning so deferring to the Cayman because it is mid engined is something that history would suggest foolhardy 2. The 996/997 GT3 and the relationship with the racing cars that they were bred from is well known in the motoring world as we might think and there aren't many of them - relatively speaking. The 991 may be a good road car, but a genetic mutation of a 991 cup or RSR it most certainly isn't and nor does it offer anything like the driving experience. So the market for a car like the 996/7 GT3 - as we can see from the one for the D'type, GT40 Et al is bigger on the demand side than the supply. Current Buyers of these cars - in the main - understand them and are not interested in the 'latest' thing. Their reason for buying i think is far more informed. I would wager that most of those who own one are fully aware of this and most likely are quite reluctant to part with them. They may, however buy a GT4 as well as. To the 991 buyer however, the GT4 will feel like a breath of fresh air and hopefully open a door to a car that actually rewards the driver. Like you say, I could be completely wrong

The thrust of my argument has never been about 911s of the past. Some, as you say, will be kept and valued for the reasons you state. Its the impact on current Caymans and 911s that I'm trying to address. If many think like you that the GT4 might be as good or better a car than the 991GT3, then that will be benefit of GT4 values and the detriment of 991GT3 ones. But, going forward the GT4 gives the Cayman a possible foothold in GT racing that it hasn't really had in Europe (though it does have in the States). Doubtless Porsche will only give its support rather reluctantly, but if participation and success does advance at a pace, it will rub off on the road cars to the advantage of 981s vis-a-vis 911s perception and values. (Ultimately I think it will result in a realignment in new car prices more akin to those in the states). But, as I say, that's not going to happen overnight.

Mermaid said: Excellent thread - many helpful posts, especially from Steve Rance. At half the cost to purchase a GT4 compared to the 991 GT3 at these heady levels, my money would be headed towards a GT4, and take a profit on the 991 GT3. What a good idea .

Going back to the original question. The GT4 has made me think a basic 2.7 with a minimal spec, 18" wheels and sports suspension could well be my perfect car and a relative bargain, so maybe the GT4 and GTS has made lesser models look even more enticing.