M135i to 996/997? - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Having read the buying guide on the 996 last week I've been lusting after a 911. As usually happens I started out looking at lowly £10-12k 996, then it went to 996.2 up to £15k, then realised for circa £20k I can get a decent 997.1. Being totally honest I love the looks of the 997, the 996 looks ok but not sure I'd be looking back at it while walking away.. Anyway, I'm currently in an M135i and wondering if anyone has driven both? I find the turbo shove of my current car plenty fast enough for road use, and reasonable on track. I've never driven a carrera but have briefly driven a 996 turbo on track which remains the most powerful car I've driven (sadly out of budget)! I'm concerned the NA 3.6 would feel a little slow at road speeds compared to the low down shove I get the the '1. I've recently realised that I've become a little numb to fast cars on the road due to having them as dailies, (I had a C1 for a couple of days while my Z4 was in the garage, and when I got back in it, it felt really special. Up until that point I was a bit bored of it and wondered what all the fuss was over the N52 engine ) and such I'm thinking of the Porsche as a second car and getting something cheap to run to work in. Has anyone owned/driven both and can provide any feedback? It won't be for a few months at least so don't feel comfortable going to traders for test drives with no intention of buying just yet.. Thanks!

I've owned my 996 3.4 for 5yrs now, they are not 'quick' in a straight line, after your 135i it may feel a little lacking. However, nothing is quite like a 911 when it comes to the twisty bits, you really would have to drive one for an extended test drive to see what you think.

LordHaveMurci said: I've owned my 996 3.4 for 5yrs now, they are not 'quick' in a straight line, after your 135i it may feel a little lacking. However, nothing is quite like a 911 when it comes to the twisty bits, you really would have to drive one for an extended test drive to see what you think. That's what I thought, I'm thinking driving a slow daily (possibly lined up a 1.3cdti corsa ) will also make me appreciate it rather than driving it on the boring commute. Is it worth going for the 3.6 over the 3.4 in terms of reliability? Or will either be pot luck?

I tend to use my 172 Cup as my daily so the 996 does feel more special when I get to use it. Think the 3.4 & 3.6 both have known issues, if slightly different ones. Buy a good one, get it inspected & keep a slush fund just in case, you won't regret it Mine doesn't have PSE, REALLY wish it did so look for one that has it, sounds amazing.

LordHaveMurci said: I tend to use my 172 Cup as my daily so the 996 does feel more special when I get to use it. Think the 3.4 & 3.6 both have known issues, if slightly different ones. Buy a good one, get it inspected & keep a slush fund just in case, you won't regret it Mine doesn't have PSE, REALLY wish it did so look for one that has it, sounds amazing. I'll have to wait til I can get a drive in one then, incidentally I ran a 172 a few years ago and that certainly felt faster on the road than the on paper stats would suggest - most likely down to the low weight of it. Good little car that was..

Phateuk said: I'll have to wait til I can get a drive in one then, incidentally I ran a 172 a few years ago and that certainly felt faster on the road than the on paper stats would suggest - most likely down to the low weight of it. Good little car that was.. Had mine for 4yrs now, it's a Cup too so it's pretty nippy. Bought it to hillclimb with but it's such great fun I've also ended up using it as my daily/dog transport & use the 996 for longer drives / hoons. In 5yrs ownership of the 996 I honestly still can't say I've mastered driving it, the only car I've owned I can say that about & that's what I love about it. Don't get me wrong, I can drive it quickly but always feel the car is better than me (which I'm sure it is!). The Clio gets driven at 10/10ths on hillclimbs with no reservations whatsoever, wouldn't be brave enough to try that with the 996.

I ran a 130i for 2 years before my 997.1 S so am reasonably well qualified to comment The BMW is smooth and quick for sure. The 911 feels much more of an event to own, sit in, and drive. You've got to grab hold of it to make it feel much quicker than the 130i but, above 4.5k revs it unleashes another level of performance that the BMW doesn't have. The Porsche feels bigger and less chuckable but the limits feel (I've not experimented with actually finding them) that they are much higher. Don't be fooled by low purchase prices though....running costs are on another level.

I have a 997.1 C4S and an M135i. The BM is 10mph quicker on my "test toad" but as others have said the 997 is much more of an event to drive and own. The 135i is an auto and much better for the kids so always gets the nod for long journeys The BMW is driven by my wife mostly, but even after 8 months if both are on the drive its a very tough choice... the BM is so much fun and the "lairiest" car I have ever driven. I think that says a great deal about the BMWs abilities, but if one had to go it would be the M135i every day of the week despite the running costs differential. To sum up - Owning a Porsche is a bucket list item, an M135i is not. Do it ! Edited by Barton on Friday 18th July 17:36

Barton said: I have a 997.1 C4S and an M135i. The BM is 10mph quicker on my "test toad" but as others have said the 997 is much more of an event to drive and own. The 135i is an auto and much better for the kids so always gets the nod for long journeys The BMW is driven by my wife mostly, but even after 8 months if both are on the drive its a very tough choice... the BM is so much fun and the "lairiest" car I have ever driven. I think that says a great deal about the BMWs abilities, but if one had to go it would be the M135i every day of the week despite the running costs differential. To sum up - Owning a Porsche is a bucket list item, an M135i is not. Do it ! Edited by Barton on Friday 18th July 17:36 You're very lucky to have both! Sadly its one or the other for me at the moment I agree totally about the BM, such a great all rounder, after 5 months I still sit at work looking forward to the drive home. Most cars I've had I'm already picking faults with after this length of ownership but the 1 seems to have most bases covered. What made you pick the c4 over the c2? I've been thinking after the auto bm I'd fancy a manual c2 just for the red balance. I imagine day to day on the road it isn't that noticeable but I like to do the odd track day which sways me towards the rwd Porsche

In the past I have owned a 997.1 C2S and currently own an M135i. 997 was manual but BMW is auto. The M135i is very quick and brilliant as an every-day car but I don't find it that satisfying to drive. 997 was much better: steering, feedback, brakes and the noise. For a fun car I would definitely take the 997 (although personally I would be looking at air-cooled rather than water-cooled).

Sounds like a 996 Turbo would fit the bill. I can see you missing the pulls of the turbo otherwise.

What made me choose the C4S? Id like to say the security of 4wd when its wet or so we can still get out and about when it snows and the BM is useless, but it was the wide body, pure and simple !

A friend moved from Porsches to an M135i shortly after they were released. A great car but his heart took him back to a Porsche within 2 years. He has bought a cracking 996 C4 and whilst it is not as quick on paper etc, the smiles per mile are many multiples higher.

Thanks for all the feedback It would seem my ideal solution would be the m135i for daily tasks and a 911 for fun. As above I think a turbo would suit me but given my initial budget of £12k is a bit out of range, plus if I end up spending low 20's I'm not sure I could turn down a nice 997 for an older 996 turbo despite the turbo looking amazing. I'll continue reading up and saving some cash and hopefully report back here the new owner of a 911

Don't dismiss the Cayman/ Boxster. Will feel slow in a straight line compared with the M135i but epic on a B road - I've driven CSLs, 1Ms, M3s etc and believe me you won't be disappointed with a 987 S Boxster or Cayman.

Whilst I've got a 996 c4 (daily driver in rural environment), for the money you're looking at, you're in 996 turbo territory. No engine issues, but higher running costs. That said, you run the risk of expensive engine repairs with the Carrera 2 or 4 3.4, 3.6 (996&997) 3.8 997.2 is apparently less suspect but other can tell you about that. In your position, I'd go 996 turbo. Spend a bit more. Dan

I've previously owned a 996 C2 3.6 and also driven an M135i. The M135i is an absolutely fantastic little car, and the inert steering is the only thing that really lets it down. I'd think long and hard before swapping what's probably the best and quickest RWD hot hatch on the market for an old 911. Your car is nearly new, and whilst a £20k 911 might seem appealing in the classifieds photographs, the reality is that anything in this price/age bracket is most likely going to feel pretty old and tired in many respects compared to your M135i. There are also a lot of things that you currently take for granted with regard to reliability and maintenance costs. In terms of a drivers car I preferred my 987 3.4S to my 996. With the budget you have in mind I'd suggest taking a look at a Gen 2 987 Boxster or Cayman. They might well give you the "special" feel you're after, whilst still being new enough and reliable enough to not feel like you're taking a big step back compared to what you're used to. Gary.

Good food for thought guys cslwannabe: I know what you mean, I think the boxter is such great value for what you get, and I could get a lot newer car for the money, but this seems like a heart ruling head situation I'm in and really fancy a 911 DanoS4: The turbo would be my dream car, and as a second car I suspect the running costs would be manageable, how do these fair on track? I know they're blisteringly fast but aren't they 4wd how does this compare dynamically with a c2? Hedgeman: Yes this is my main concern about getting a 996, they do look pretty dated inside, the 997 less so imo (from pictures) although I haven't been in one. I appreciate it will be pushing 10 years compared to my 6 month old car and as such require ongoing maintenance costs and consumables. I guess I've got some thinking to do..

The M135i is nowhere near being faster than a 987.2 S and so, I expect, also not faster than a 997. It might have more of a low-down shove and so feel quicker (because of the turbo), but if you actually watch the speedo it is quite a lot slower along anything but dead straight roads. I thought it was fast as all hell until I looked down and thought "I'd be carrying a lot more speed through here in my car". You have to be much higher in the rev range to get the same acceleration in an NA Porsche, but if you want to compare apples to apples, you have to put the Porsche in its power band! If I had to get from a A to B quickly, I'd take the 987 and keep it above 4,500 revs (which would also sound great from start to finish).

imo never buy a s tter as a run about, why spend 80% of your life in a s tter. B: the m135i is not that fast a car any way some people are saying other cars ie 911's and Caymans will be slower but the m135i is about 11 seconds to a ton !! A new Boxster is faster than that ! not that you are buying new but even a 2003 base model 911 does the ton faster !!! So the quotes given on here are a bit misleading, also fast these days is sub 8 to a ton with the GTR and 911 turbo's doing the ton in the 6's that's twice as fast as a M135i I see ORD has the same feeling, great minds and all that :-) Edited by mrdemon on Monday 21st July 09:39

mrdemon said: imo never buy a s tter as a run about, why spend 80% of your life in a s tter. B: the m135i is not that fast a car any way some people are saying other cars ie 911's and Caymans will be slower but the m135i is about 11 seconds to a ton !! A new Boxster is faster than that ! not that you are buying new but even a 2003 base model 911 does the ton faster !!! So the quotes given on here are a bit misleading, also fast these days is sub 8 to a ton with the GTR and 911 turbo's doing the ton in the 6's that's twice as fast as a M135i I see ORD has the same feeling, great minds and all that :-) Edited by mrdemon on Monday 21st July 09:39 I see what you mean about the daily snotter, but I think this would prevent the nicer car becoming dulled down and feeling boring during commute traffic. Comparing 0-100 is a better benchmark for outright speed of a car, however in day to day real world driving I wouldn't consider it that relevant, I do full bore 30-80 at least once a day but going up to a ton not that often due to traffic constraints an the fondness of my licence

you just become a far better driver driving the right car 100% of the time. I don't get the s tter thing at all, seems pointless to me and the money would go towards a better 911. 30-80 a Cayman/911 is quite fast below 90 you are just used to the torque and have prob got lazy. depends what you want ? A to B fastest car out there is a chipped TTRS DSG :-) 4WD 430ft'lbs torque mine did 30-80- in 4 seconds and was a manual !!! easy sub 4 for DSG cars. My Cayman does 30-80 in 5.5 again a manual stock car but that's right on a gear change at 72 mph , 30-70 is 3.9 seconds. m135i is about 5.3 30-80. depends what you call fast, my TTRS was a laugh for a while having that punch (40-60mph was just a second) but once you are used to it that's that. plus all these cars you can use that power in the wet, the M135i in the damp just does not work, forget snow ;-) Edited by mrdemon on Monday 21st July 10:38

mrdemon said: you just become a far better driver driving the right car 100% of the time. I don't get the s tter thing at all, seems pointless to me and the money would go towards a better 911. 30-80 a Cayman/911 is quite fast below 90 you are just used to the torque and have prob got lazy. depends what you want ? A to B fastest car out there is a chipped TTRS DSG :-) 4WD 430ft'lbs torque mine did 30-80- in 4 seconds and was a manual !!! easy sub 4 for DSG cars. My Cayman does 30-80 in 5.5 again a manual stock car but that's right on a gear change at 72 mph , 30-70 is 3.9 seconds. m135i is about 5.3 30-80. depends what you call fast, my TTRS was a laugh for a while having that punch (40-60mph was just a second) but once you are used to it that's that. I'm not after the fastest car A to B, I'm after a car that feels special on the road when driven for pleasure (not commuting) and also fairly competant on track (I realise it will always be compromised due to being a road car). The M135i does everything so well I'm concerned I'll miss the all round capability. As a road car I don't think I'd want for any more, on track you do notice it lacking above 100-110+ and as mentioned you look down and you're going slower than you realise - the acceleration really drops off over 120. Maybe I should leave the porsche for now and keep the 135i for daily use and buy a vx220/elise

Phateuk said: I'm not after the fastest car A to B, I'm after a car that feels special on the road when driven for pleasure (not commuting) and also fairly competant on track (I realise it will always be compromised due to being a road car). The M135i does everything so well I'm concerned I'll miss the all round capability. As a road car I don't think I'd want for any more, on track you do notice it lacking above 100-110+ and as mentioned you look down and you're going slower than you realise - the acceleration really drops off over 120. Maybe I should leave the porsche for now and keep the 135i for daily use and buy a vx220/elise Took the family down to the beach yesterday afternoon for an ice cream as the weather was lovely, took the 996 for a run knowing the traffic would be heavy & slow. Even at sunday afternoon speeds I could feel the car flowing over the road & transmitting so much information through the wheel & the seat of my pants! I am very biased, I can't deny that, but a 911 is a truly special car to drive, sadly many people buy them as status symbols & never appreciate how special they actually are but that's their loss. And the only other 911 we saw was a 997 C4S Cab, saw plenty of 1 series beemers though.

We go on a eurotrip each yr and this yr one of the guys had a 135i ... had no issue keeping up! Its a bloody fast car for what it is. No it doesnt drive or handle like a porsche, but then its a BMW. Pace wise the car lacks for nothing... we were all impressed but how much the car could do. Guess part of your choice is practicalities - 4 seats a necessity, or a nice to have? Boot space etc...

The keeping up on public roads test is fairly easy to pass, though, especially for a turbocharged car. I had a maniac in a Mini Cooper S stick with me for most of some fairly spirited driving recently. She was about half a mile back by the top of Fish Hill but caught up on the next straight by hitting 100, which is pretty stupid but a good way to close a gap that results from better handling. I think the 1 series is a pretty average platform. The 135i a great engine (if you don't mind tc) in a pretty average car. It's a damn shame it's got very little competition unless you want a stressed out 4 cyl with artificial engine sound.

Based on experience in a straight there's not much in it until very high speed. However everything else will be more sharper and fun.

I've had a 996 Turbo for 3 years and 16000 miles and a new M135i auto for 8 months and 9000 miles. I bought the BMW because I wanted to reduce the miles I was putting on the 911 with commuting (12000 miles per annum) and it has worked really well for me. For everyday driving there is no real performance difference between them as they are both so fast that you can't really use all the performance. The BMW is fun and a bit lairy (which I like) and is practical and so far bullet proof, the 911 is in a different performance league once you wind it up and has a much more resolved chassis when you really push on. I know this is subjective but somehow the 911 just feels special where the BMW doesn't. I think the BMW is an excellent car for the money and would recommend it to anyone and the 996 Turbo is just fantastic, full stop.

Phateuk said: I'm not after the fastest car A to B, I'm after a car that feels special on the road when driven for pleasure (not commuting) and also fairly competant on track (I realise it will always be compromised due to being a road car). The M135i does everything so well I'm concerned I'll miss the all round capability. As a road car I don't think I'd want for any more, on track you do notice it lacking above 100-110+ and as mentioned you look down and you're going slower than you realise - the acceleration really drops off over 120. Maybe I should leave the porsche for now and keep the 135i for daily use and buy a vx220/elise I you want truly epic feel, something that is a challenge then yes a 996 C2S or 997 C2S is absolutely spot on and will excel on both road and track. The 997 variant has more power and is a far nicer place to be. My C2S is the longest car I've owned, nearly 4 years now, I've also got an E46 M3 car as well which is a track project. To compare the two my 997.1 C2S out the box was doing around 1:25-1:26 lap times, out the box on PS2 tyres. With GT3 ARB's, front arms, aggressive road/track geo and some Supersport tyres, I was down to 1:23 driving smoothly and not at the limit, it was no slouch. My M3 in comparison was around 1:28, but it was setup wrong, now its in the 1:20ish lap time ability at Donnington, so the M3 is now quicker, with slicks it goes even quicker again. But which do I prefer driving on the road? 911 the feel, communication and just the enjoyment of driving the thing is on another level, don't get me wrong the M3 is huge fun too, it should be its on KW Clubsports, Alcons and weighs 1300kg, but the 911 which its rear engine and immense amounts of rear traction is simply more fun to drive and the grip is unreal even in the wet. I love the Boxster and Cayman too, but I can jump in a Cayman or Boxster and drive it pretty much flat out, sliding around and though its great fun it just does not seem the same challenge or as engaging as the 911. A 911 is a tick box in life, do it and you won't be disappointed.

I have owned a 911 GTS (manual) for nearly 3 years and an M135i (auto) since March 1st. Most of my recent mileage has been in the M135i; it's comfortable and it's quick, but every time I go back to the 911 it feels even more special. The main difference for me is not the few tenths of a second off acceleration times (talk of measuring 0-100 is just plain daft on any road) but rather the brakes and steering. I didn't realise just how nice the 911's slim alcantara steering wheel was until I drove the M135i with its horribly fat thing. Of course, the GTS doesn't have the electric steering of later 911 models and the feedback is just in a different class entirely. Both cars stop as good as they go, but once again the feedback through the 911's pedal is far better, and braking is more progressive and easy to modulate. Of course, that's how it should be given the difference in list price between the two cars; even a secondhand GTS is nearly double the price of a new M135i. But the BMW is still an easy (and enjoyable) car to drive. It does what I want it to do when four doors and four seats are needed. If you have to choose between the two (and you don't need four proper seats) then there is only one winner . . .

I have owned a 911 GTS (manual) for nearly 3 years and an M135i (auto) since March 1st. Most of my recent mileage has been in the M135i; it's comfortable and it's quick, but every time I go back to the 911 it feels even more special. The main difference for me is not the few tenths of a second off acceleration times (talk of measuring 0-100 is just plain daft on any road) but rather the brakes and steering. I didn't realise just how nice the 911's slim alcantara steering wheel was until I drove the M135i with its horribly fat thing. Of course, the GTS doesn't have the electric steering of later 911 models and the feedback is just in a different class entirely. Both cars stop as good as they go, but once again the feedback through the 911's pedal is far better, and braking is more progressive and easy to modulate. Of course, that's how it should be given the difference in list price between the two cars; even a secondhand GTS is nearly double the price of a new M135i. But the BMW is still an easy (and enjoyable) car to drive. It does what I want it to do when four doors and four seats are needed. If you have to choose between the two (and you don't need four proper seats) then there is only one winner . . .

Seems a fair amount of you guys have a 911 and an M135i - looks like I need to work harder!

Gibbo205 said: Phateuk said: I'm not after the fastest car A to B, I'm after a car that feels special on the road when driven for pleasure (not commuting) and also fairly competent on track (I realise it will always be compromised due to being a road car). The M135i does everything so well I'm concerned I'll miss the all round capability. As a road car I don't think I'd want for any more, on track you do notice it lacking above 100-110+ and as mentioned you look down and you're going slower than you realise - the acceleration really drops off over 120. Maybe I should leave the porsche for now and keep the 135i for daily use and buy a vx220/elise I you want truly epic feel, something that is a challenge then yes a 996 C2S or 997 C2S is absolutely spot on and will excel on both road and track. The 997 variant has more power and is a far nicer place to be. My C2S is the longest car I've owned, nearly 4 years now, I've also got an E46 M3 car as well which is a track project. To compare the two my 997.1 C2S out the box was doing around 1:25-1:26 lap times, out the box on PS2 tyres. With GT3 ARB's, front arms, aggressive road/track geo and some Supersport tyres, I was down to 1:23 driving smoothly and not at the limit, it was no slouch. My M3 in comparison was around 1:28, but it was setup wrong, now its in the 1:20ish lap time ability at Donnington, so the M3 is now quicker, with slicks it goes even quicker again. But which do I prefer driving on the road? 911 the feel, communication and just the enjoyment of driving the thing is on another level, don't get me wrong the M3 is huge fun too, it should be its on KW Clubsports, Alcons and weighs 1300kg, but the 911 which its rear engine and immense amounts of rear traction is simply more fun to drive and the grip is unreal even in the wet. I love the Boxster and Cayman too, but I can jump in a Cayman or Boxster and drive it pretty much flat out, sliding around and though its great fun it just does not seem the same challenge or as engaging as the 911. A 911 is a tick box in life, do it and you won't be disappointed. I am really swayed towards the RWD models like you point out. It's interesting about lap times in your 997 and E46, I was at donington in mine last month, was my first time there and managed a 1:31 (although I'm no race-driver, I'm sure the car could be taken round several seconds faster in the right hands ). The real drawback of the track performance in the 135i is the brakes - it just doesn't give any confidence after a couple of laps, plus the dropoff in acceleration above 100. As it's not going to be a keeper I'm a little reluctant to sink any money into upgrades. How would a 996/7 c2 perform on track running standard hardware, maybe with upgraded brake fluid and pads? Edited by Phateuk on Thursday 24th July 08:42

@OP - regardless of what you choose, a 911 will feel more special than a 135. only driven one briefly and they're fun, but not as amazing as everyone makes them out to be (IMO). I'd say save a little longer and get a 996 turbo. The pace outstrips but 996/997 carreras and the Metzger is vastly superior to the M96/m97 reliability wise. Definately get any potential purchase inspected thorough, carrera engine problems are well documented. On the flipside, 74k on my 997C4S and nothing has exploded. EDIT: my grammar is terribad.

997 would be brilliant on standard hardware - PCCB even better but the normal brakes outperform every other car in the price bracket. Oh, and don't get obsessed with lap times - there will always be someone quicker - just enjoy the poise and the balance as you link up the corners.