Cayman R susp. vs Bilstein PSS9 susp. upgrade

I'm hoping people who have experience with both could provide some input. I believe BillC might fall in this category but I'm hoping others will chime in as well. I admit, the main reason I'm doing this is for looks but I also like to do some spirited driving on some back roads. I don't plan to do any autox but also don't want to rule it out. So, for those with experience with both, which would you recommend from a purely handling perspective? And this is for an '06 CS and I'm not looking for anything too low as I'd still like to be able to go over speed bumps. Thanks! -Moto

I do not have my Cayman R yet, however I have driven in one. I also have owned a 2010 base cayman with TPC drop links,toe links, sway bars and JRZ RS1 Coilovers. The TPC setup is so much much better than the stock Cayman R suspensions, two can not even be compared. The TPC suspension was not harsh and made no noise from the drop links. The JRZ RS1 Coilovers are comparable in price to the TPC modified PSS10/9 I believe. I will be putting the TPC suspension on my Cayman R definatlely after the winter.

Bilsteins , because you can adjust them to whatever height your visual or track heart desires. *Note, not sure if you can adjust the CR suspension height, to my knowledge.

Sorry to take away from the original request, but if anyone can chime in about ride comfort as well because it's also important to the wife. LOL :hilarious:

You can see from my signature what I have done. I have ridden in a R and didn't think the suspension was a s good as my set-up. However if you do the full Pss9/GT# sway bar mods you will surely get your car corner balanced. Therin lies the rub (literally) if you carry an passenger on the streets. Definately harsh on the street.

I have the Cayman R suspension on my 2006 CS The ride is very good not to stiff or harsh. Ride height clears speed breakers, driveways and curbs with no issues. Handling is sharper and flatter the the original suspension was. Great option for a non track rat. Cost was less than pss9's Cman21

Love my PSS9s for street driving with the occasional track day. Very complaint, while still maintaining a sporty feel without a harshness sacrifice. Two thumbs up with a twist. :banana: (I have driven a Cayman R)

Since others are talking about ride comfort... With PASM off, car feels how a car of this nature should have been stock. With PASM on, it is bad $hit stiff at the extremes! Really the best of both worlds. But I have PASM , so this post will be useful in the sense of you adjusting the dampning by yourself I guess

Thanks everyone for their input. Upon recommendations from those that have posted here as well as others outside of this forum, I went with the PSS9s. Main reasons being that the ride height and stiffness are adjustable which allows for maximum flexibility. The CR suspension is pretty much set. The difference b/w stock (without PASM ) and PSS9s are night and day. Currently my front is set at 4 (out of 9) and the rear is set at 5. 9 being the stiffest (I believe). With these settings, when comparing it to stock, the ride is definitely stiffer. I could feel bumps I never thought existed. It does take some getting used to. I haven't been able to test it on the back roads yet but based on the little driving I did , I have no doubt it will be fun. Thanks for everyone's input and I hope to be posting pics up soon. -Moto

Re: PSS9 settings, 9 = comfort, 1 = sport.

Not too surprising the PSS9s are stiffer given the spring rates: __________ F __R__ Cayman S: 154 211 Cayman R: 171 245 PSS9____: 285 370 BTW - I run my PSS9's at 8 all the way around for street driving and F=3 R=1 at the track.

Wow, this helps ME a great deal as well. Thanks for the information guys! One more question I have is, when PSS9's are set at 9 or 8, how is the comfort level compared to stock (without PASM )? I drive a Golf TDI daily with H&R Sport Springs and Koni FSD shocks. My Cayman S without PASM and stock suspension is still more harsh than my Golf aftermarket setup. I feel the bumps a lot harder on the stock Cayman S . My Golf is more floaty feeling, but more comfortable over the bumps. Your help is appreciated!

I have had mine set at 7 for the street and it did seem a little more firm that the stock suspension, but as a reference point, my wife does not find the ride objectionable. I just reset them last week for an AutoX and DE this weekend to 3, and it is way too much for the street for me.................... The car being lower though, as minimal as the drop is on my car, it sure seems to be a lot lower getting in and out of, or maybe it is just that middle age thing starting to get to me...........

Finally got a chance to take a pic of the Bilsteins . I'm very happy with them both in looks and handling. Unfortunately I forgot to take my curb at a sharper angle and already scratched the underside a little. Not too bad though. -Moto

^^ great look. Smoke those sidemarkers

Moto, Car looks very good with the pss9's on it. Is that the factory spoiler just painted black? Cman21

So if you have the Sport Mode button in your vehicle (which as I understand when pressed firms up your suspension) will that integrate with the bilstein PSS9s. Thanks

Yes, with the Damptronics variants. Assuming you have PASM ...

It's actually a carbon fiber spoiler by safetech. http://www.planet-9.com/cayman-boxster-modifications/39278-safetech-composites-pieces.html The owner used to be a sponsor here but not sure of the current status as there were issues with him not responding to inquiries in a prompt manner. The man did quality work but lacked customer service. I hope this answers your question.

I like the way you think. I actually thought about it but that would just take me down a path that I'm not sure I want to take. (Tail lights, headlights , etc.) I have to say, other than possibly a few carbon fiber bits (mirror, splitters, side vents), I am done....yeah right!! Then again, I'm not sure if I want to go down this path either. :hilarious: -Moto

I like the black fender protection. I was thinking of doing the same or black my side vents...wasn't sure if it would look right if I did both.

Yeah, I agree, adding side vents would be too much. The only reason I opted for the stone guard instead of the side vent is b/c the stone guard was cheaper and at the time Prodgers didn't have anything available as far as side vents were concerned. Good luck! I don't think you could go wrong either way. -Moto

The stock Cayman R strut is twin tube isn't it. PSS9 is monotube. Height and dumping adjustable. The retrofit kit from suncoast cost about the same. There is no need to consider cayman R kit for any reason anymore isn't it .

I can't recommend PSS9 for any car anywhere, and I can't believe they still get away with marketing that crap as being "9-way adjustable". The dampers are nice monotubes, but the advertised compression/rebound adjustment is not so much a 9-way click as it is an on/off setting. It is such a massive pain trying to get consistent damping across the rear or across the front; you're looking at a shock that is either all soft (too soft) or way, way too stiff. Setting 1 is consistent as is setting 9, but the soft/stiff transition could be anywhere from 3-7 and depends on the specific damper. You would be better off money-wise and performance-wise if you can find an old set of used PSS9s and have them rebuilt with non-adjustable digressive valving (or do it yourself). Bilstein does make good stuff, but not for us. On my M3 , I swapped the PSS9s out for PSS10s, and the difference is night and day. Unfortunately, Bilstein doesn't make a PSS10 for the 987 (why not, Bilstein ?), so my recommendation is to go with another brand entirely.

I disagree. The PSS9's are MUCH better than OEM in ever aspect. Much less harsh on the street with much improved control (my OEM only had 38,000 miles when replaced). The rebound damping is far better than the almost non-existent rebound damping in stock dampers. Several other people have agreed with me on this point. For HPDE use, the PSS9 set allows later braking and better control in quick left right left type turns (or right left right). There is much less body roll, in fact, I removed my rear sway bar, lowered the front 1/2 inch and the car is much more neutral and turns in more aggressively. Very slight understeer on hard power exits from mid speed turns. The timer never lies, the car is turning lower laps times then stock could; by about 3 seconds on a 2 minute lap. I am considering removing the front sway bar for comparison at the next HPDE. I chased down and passed a Lotus yesterday. He weighed 2100 lbs (car with driver) and I consistently reeled him in after starting a third of a lap behind him.

You said you lowered the front, removed the rear sway bar, and the car turns in more aggressively. Aren't you attributing too many things to the PSS9s? A lowered car will always have less body roll and less dive under braking, even if the dampers do not change. Likewise, how can your damping rates possibly give you more aggressive turn in? Did you at any point run with just the PSS9s and no other changes, and if so, did you ever try to adjust them to some setting other than 1 or 9 without the use of a shock dyno?

I installed the PSS9's and did not use either extreme setting. I have only had the car on the track twice since the installation. I only try one setting change at a time, so for me to try 8 different damper setting, it will take me a few months. I have enough experience on track to know whether or not I need to increase or decrease damping depending on what the car is doing under braking and through the turns. On my Formula Ford, when I revalved the Penske dampers, I cut my lap times by 8%. Your dampers have a huge effect on turn in, also on mid corner grip, and of course on the tires ' grip under power on exit. Lowering a car a half inch has a minimal effect on the amount of body roll. The reason people notice less body roll when installing lowering springs is because lowering springs always have a higher spring rate than the standard springs to prevent bottoming out the suspension. The correct way to lower the car is to use just enough spring for the job and to incorporate bump stops to control the last half inch of travel; as do Formula 1 cars. Using stiffer springs always results in a more harsh ride and reduced tire grip. The PSS9's use 2 springs in the front, a softer more compliant spring for the initial wheel movement, then the more stiff spring after the first spring has compressed. Lowering a car more in the front than the rear will increase body dive under braking with all other things being unchanged. Lowering the rear of the car will lessen body dive. Lowering both the same will have minimal affect on body dive because the physical forces are the same at the standard height and the lowered height. Springs, dampers, bump stops, and anti sway bars control body roll. The first three control body dive. The physical forces on the body roll do not change when you alter the ride height. Your center of gravity changes which affects tire grip. Altering the amount of damping will affect the amount of weight transfer entering the turn, at mid turn when transitioning from braking to throttle, and at exit when under power. All that is controlled by the damper settings. Sway bars are used to control excessive body roll but at the cost of limiting the independence of each wheel on that axle. Use enough sway bar and you can convert your independent front suspension to straight axle type performance. The best designed suspensions use the least amount of anti sway bars. Sway bars decrease tire grip. They are a necessary evil in many applications. If you can get a suspension to work without any sway bar or with as little as possible, the car will ultimately be faster.

Here is a very easy to understand guide for you http://www.theoryinpracticeengineering.com/drift_mag/basic_damper.pdf Bilstein had a guide for adjusting dampers based upon the handling at various parts of the corner, but I am unable to find it online. I'll see if I can find my printed copy in my race trailer and upload a copy. I have a folder for at the track to help explain how to adjust a suspension for guys with whom I race that are less skilled at tuning their suspension.

Well, it sounds like you had much better luck than I. I will say that I wasn't that frustrated until I installed PSS10s and realized what I was missing. And I think it's stupid that Bilstein provides PSS10s for many cars that are not as track worthy as a 987. Ultimately, I'm frustrated that there is no middle ground: we're either stuck with the low-end (PSS9) or something high end like JRZ. PSS10s provide that middle ground for many other cars. With respect to lowering the CG height, it does have a relatively large impact on brake dive. The dive is proportional to CG height, so lowering a 20" CG to 19" will reduce dive by ~5%, which is going to be noticeable for most people since we sit near the CG and feel our bodies rotate. Likewise for roll and squat.

http://cart.bilsteinus.com/pdfs/motorsports.pdf The formatting and images did not copy properly, so click on the link and scroll down to the page on valving and tuning your suspension. TECHNOLOGY. Shock absorbers produce damping force by forcing oil, under pressure, through orifices in the piston. Shock damping forces increase as the vertical velocity of your suspension increases. In other words, when the shock’spiston speed through the oil increases, so do the damping forces. Shockdynamometers measure the amount of damping force generated by the piston as it accelerates and decelerates from a dead stop to a chosen peak velocity (usually 10” to 12” per second). Theforces are normally depicted in the form of a graph that plots shaft velocity, in inches per second, on the horizontal, anddamping forces in pounds on the vertical. Compression forces are normally expressed from zero going up, and reboundforces from zero going down, although that can be reversed by the “dyno” operator with a single key stroke. Below, studythe shock dyno graphs that illustrate the different style performance curves using two, unique piston designs, availablefrom BILSTEIN. Bleed: The unrestricted flow of oil through the piston that bypasses the valve disc stack is referred to as “bleed”, orsometimes as “bypass”. The bleed characteristic in the shock’s piston design determines the amount of “slow pistonspeed” control available before the shock’s valving begins to control the higher velocity forces. High bleed pistons createsmall amounts of damping force at low piston speeds, and low bleed pistons create large amounts of damping force atlow piston speeds. YOUR CHASSIS. Study the current BILSTEIN setup recommendations for your particulartype of racing. These combinations are tested and race proven to besuccessful, but due to the many variables that come into play under racingconditions, it is to your advantage to have a basic understanding of howshock damping rates affect your lap times. Adjustments can then be made This graph was generated by a BILSTEIN linear piston using 36.4mmdiameter cover plates resulting in a high bleed (or high frequency) style,short track linear valving. This graph depicts the BILSTEIN linear piston combined with 37.4mmcover plates. The result is valving with more “low-speed” control. AT THE TRACK. Compression damping controls only the oscillation of the car’s unsprung weight.Therefore, it is normal to use less compression damping than rebound damping.The exception occurs when we choose to slow the downward movement on aparticular corner of the car to mimic the effect of a stiffer spring. Here are some guidelines to use when shock tuning your chassis at the track ormaking the best decisions during initial setup. We are making the assumptionthat you have removed as many variables as possible and are using the bestcombination of springs, weights, wheel spacers, tire compound, stagger, etc. with reason and understanding of how they will affect the car. Simply stated, shock absorbers convert the kinetic energy of thespring movements into heat. This heat is then dissipated into the air through the shock tube or body. In practical application,shock absorbers are necessary to maintain maximum tire patch contact to the track as the car corners and negotiatesirregularities on the race track surface. Spring rates determine how far your chassis rolls, pitches or squats. Shock rates determine the length of time it takes for eachof these movements to occur. Rebound damping controls the movement of that part of the car’s sprung mass that is stored in a compressed spring. Therebound damping rate determines how long it takes for the compressed spring to return to the static ride height. The larger therebound figure, the more the shock resists the compressed spring’s effort to rebound, and the longer it takes for the chassis toreturn to the static ride height. All you have to do isdetermine what you want thecar to do from entry to exit.Just think it through! Utilizing the “Think Track” to the left, study the following list of suggestions.These are not rules, but tendencies that are more often true than not whenracing late models and modifieds on asphalt or dirt surfaces. Loose (Oversteer) from 0° to 90° Increase compression rate on front. Decrease rebound rate on rear, or only on left rear. Tight (Understeer) from 0° to 90° Decrease compression rate on front. Increase rebound rate on rear, . Loose (Oversteer) from 90° to 0° Decrease rebound rate on front. Decrease compression rate on rear. Increase rebound rate on front. Increase compression rate on rear, When analyzing corner entry, or decelerationhandling, realize that the chassis is affected by: Compression rate in front. Rebound rate at rear. When analyzing corner exit, or acceleration handling,realize that the chassis is affected by: • Rebound rate in front. • Compression rate at rear. Our standard digressive valvings can be built with a wide range of bleedpatterns. The one shown here is a very high bleed valving typical of onethat would be used on the rear suspension to promote traction. Shown here is a standard digressive valving using a low amount of bleed.Notice the large amount of force developed on both compression andrebound at slow piston speeds. BILSTEIN shocks are famous for their superior performanceon very rough asphalt or rutted dirt tracks. You may needto choose a shock with more compression damping thanfound on our setup sheets under extreme rough trackconditions. We have included this section in our catalog to broadenyour understanding of the function of shock absorbers andto show you the effect they have on handling. Keep in mind that there are many adjustments on your chassis other thanshock absorbers. The oversteer/understeer balance may beaffected by stagger, tire compound, wheel spacing, springrates, sway bar, panhard and others. Shocks can be usedto fine tune your chassis to gain that last few tenths of asecond on the track. If you have any questions, contact our technical department at [phone removed]. The new BILSTEIN “COB” Digressive piston utilizes a check valve, that when installed on the compression side of the piston creates less bleedand therefore more force on the rebound side. When the “COB” Digressive piston’s check valve is installed on therebound side, there is less bleed and therefore more force created on the compression side.

I have yet to see any scientific analysis showing such a large percentage. It is a known fact that dive is necessary for weight transfer, dive is controlled by the dampers; rebound on the rear and compression on the front control dive under braking, front rebound and rear compression control squat under acceleration. Total amount of dive and squat are controlled by the rates of the spring and the bump stops. Bump stops are not just a hard rubber stopper, they are a tuning device with various densities and lengths of travel used to control the last half inch or more of wheel travel.

Also, I found data to back up my claim about PSS9s. Check out these dynos of PSS9: Bilstein PSS family - Page 2 - MY350Z.COM Forums and compare it to PSS10: Pics & Review of My Bilstein PSS10 Lowered Red Turbo - Page 21 - 6SpeedOnline - Porsche Forum and Luxury Car Resource Notice how the lines on the PSS9 plot are all stuck together at low speed and spread out (but not much) at high speed. Thus, the PSS9 adjusts ride quality (from sucks to really sucks) and doesn't do much for handling. The PSS10 shock dyno looks much, much better, and in those plots it looks like the adjuster knob actually does something for low speed.

Brian, I'm glad your PSS9s are working great for you, but at this point it seems like we are just arguing and intentionally trying to misunderstand each other. It's not helpful, and I doubt anyone is reading it. ...not the mention the fact that I accidentally necroposted this thread from 2011. My fault!

I didn't mean to come across as arguing, to me it was more of a good discuss/ debate. Why not start a new thread on the topics that we discussed? Very few people understand half of what you posted and the education will do them good. It will save them money and headaches as they try to get their car to handle properly on track. Too many people think that lower is better, but I can give you examples of cars that actually turned lower lap times after raising the ride height from 1.5" to 1.9" (at 1.5" the roll center was too low) and a mid engine car that handled better after trying negative rake with more rear sway bar (suggested by a pro team in Canada).