First Encounter w/ 991

Launch 991s are now at my local dealer. I had a chance to go over the white S w/ beige interior. PDK . Frankly my overall first impression was not that positive. The rear lights seem very small in relation to a very large rear end. The blisters over the front lights, while invisible head on, appear rather goggle eyed when viewing the front as you enter the car. The rear fenders appear more inflated than muscular, and the slats over the rear deck lid appear rather coarse looking. The interior is pure Panamera translated to a smaller cabin. Rear seats are deeper but no increase in leg room. Size of dash under the windshield is much larger, windshield is lower. The new car smell is different as well, different glues and material, less German car and more Japanese car. In fact I would say that the new 911 is much less spartan German car and more whiz bang Japanese car in character. I had a short drive. The steering is lighter at low speed, less so at higher speed. Very similar to my wife's Audi A3. Not bad, a little less communicative than my 997.2 , a lot less than my wife's 987.1 Boxster , and light years away from an air cooled 911 . Car is more refined, sound in the cabin is clearly amplified but w/o PSE the DFI is a little tinny. Couldn't test the handling much, but this is a clearly more neutral 911 than even my 997.2 which to me barely feels like a rear engine car unless you stomp on the gas in the middle of a turn. PDK is smoother, more automatic in standard mode. About the same in Sport. It will be interesting to see how Porsche turns this car into a GT3. Overall the 991 is clearly aimed a customer different from myself, a mid 50s guy who grew up on the Porsche of late 20th century. I would not buy this 911 which to me is a 928 in rear engine configuration. I would much more likely be a customer for the new Cayman or Boxster , but not w/o at least 360-380HP. It's time for Porsche to allow the Boxster and Cayman to step up their game IMHO.

Very interesting review. Thanks for sharing this. Great observation on where you think the direction of the 911 is headed and what opportunities this might represent for the 981 . I'm going to make sure my dealer knows I want seat time in the first 991 they get in.

Thanks for the first hand, non-media observations. I agree, from the pictures at least, the 991 looks more GT car than sports car (looks "fat" to me) and the interior, well, fits the GT image.....very Panameraish. Thanks again.

I will wait to see in person. But from the looks of it, its a step up from the 997.2 . Every current generation 911 owner is reluctant to move to the new generation BUT they eventually will - as history has shown. You will get use to it. That said, the new 991 definitely does not date the 997. Unlike the 996 versus the 997. Will see.

I had the opportunity to see several 991s on Friday and Saturday. Black / Black, Red / Black (a press car with newly fitted all season tires ), White / Tan. amd White / Gray. I think it is a stunning car, particulary in Black and White, and that pictures do it no justice. I'm do not like the light gray interior at all (on any car really), but again, the interior is beautiful - maybe a bit "GTish", but even more of a change than the 996/ 986 to 997/987. I will say this will take out any "spousal" arguments over the interior not being "nice enough". I want one................... isn't going to happen, but I want one!

I'm confused by this. If someone's in their mid 50s and grew up on late 20th century Porsches wouldn't that mean they wouldn't like the 991 because they'd like the 964, 993 etc?

Dave's the guy in his mid fifties.

Yep, I'm the guy in his mid 50s. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I have now seen a 991 in the flesh, and it does appear a bit larger overall than the 997. Having said that, I like it and I think the interior is a vast improvement. The Panamera center console has the effect of making the front seats a much cozier place to be than the 997. How it drives remains to be seen. The media feedback seems to be all over the place, as it always is when a new 911 is introduced.

thanks for the review... I saw them at Rennsport reunion last year, my first imperssion was, the car is too big especially with the 20 inch wheels, kind of an Aston look from the rear.... I havent driven one,might check my dealer...thinking of ordering a cab..

I had a close look at two at my dealer last week. Overall, love that Porsche did what they do so well.........at a distance makes it hard to tell it from a 997 unles you know what to look for...........Up close the only thing that I am not sure I like are the 20" wheels and the interior. Directionally, does seem to be headed more towards GT. However, if we can believe the tests thus far, it takes performance to another level. But, glad I have the CR coming in March as the Cayman is still my choice. I am a mid 60's car nut.

Saw one today at Park Place in Dallas, looks pretty nice but there was a beautiful 993 sitting next to it and I still prefer the shape of the older cars.

Huh? :burnout:

Gotcha.

I sat in a Carrera S yesterday (our dealer will have the official launch on Saturday). Black/silver interior, PDK . It looks sleeker than the 997. Interior is Panamera minus 4 inches in width. Some of the a/c buttons are obscured by the PDK lever in D. Nice chrome door handles. However, the handbrake is a plastic push/pull device on the left hand side. I just could not get comfortable in the adaptive sport seats - probably my fault. It felt so good to get back into my Cayman . Two more interesting cars in their showroom: Mercedes 600 (W100) and an SLS AMG. Both looked awesome. As a matter of fact, I checked out both before looking at the 991. Mini Me

I was just down at my local dealer getting a clear bra install sorted for next week. He had just received two or three 991's and took me out to see them. I did not drive the car, just sat in it, but have to share much of what you had to say about the materials and overall look of the car. I was very surprised at the treatment of the front park assist sensors which seem tacked on...almost like an afterthought. The interior is much as you have described it. Sort of a shrunken Panamera effect - much like the Vertus phone. "Bling" in a word. It does indeed feel more Japanese than German. The Sport Chrono timer is still nestled in a wart on the dash (something they have moved away from in the 981). In short - to echo your closing view in other words - the 991 has moved further from the track and closer to the boulevard. I'll stay with my 987.2 CR for now.

Exactly! The lateral park assist sensors looked like aftermarket installs. Those are not integrated in the body, but rather sit inside the front grilles.

Managed to finally sneak a peak at one sitting outside the dealer last night,....take that into consideration as I have not seen one in daylight yet. First off as I was looking at the 997s I didn't even know that the last one in the dealer lineup was a 991,....so from a little distance the changes are not extremely apparent, which is a good thing as I'm very fond of the 997.2 as is. Now for the details..... Color: Agate Grey on Black (I believe). Sticker was not on the car and I couldn't exactly tell the interior color but it was dark. IMO Agate Grey is not a very nice color to look at. This car had the 20" Carrera Classic Wheels with the "Titanium Finish" on the inside of the spokes (very close to Agate grey in color). If it weren't for the black of the tire interrupting the car from the pavement, it would look exactly like a big hunk of concrete bulging from the road. Not attractive IMO, a wheel change would help but a color change would help it in a major way. Front: I really like the look except for what appeared to be two options this car had,...parking sensors and PASM sport suspension. As others have mentioned the far left and right sensors looked very tacked on within the side grills, almost an after thought. As I'm talented enough to be able to park a car such as a 911 in size, this nanny help I would not order. As for what appeared to be the "Aerodynamically Adapted Front Spoiler" from the PASM sport suspension package,....it kinda looks weird with little "winglets" in front center. As I said before the window sticker was not on the car so I can't be certain this car had the option, but I don't recall seeing this type of spoiler on any pictures,....or because it is black was just not apparent. Dump the parking sensors and hopefully the PASM sport package spoiler (unless you really want it) and the front looks great. I couldn't really tell the stated height difference the PASM sport package says it offers. Side: Like the side profile also, the wheelbase extension is evident and overall the car is not quite as tall looking as the 997, just a bit slicker IMO. Does not look that much longer than a 997 which it isn't. Back: I would have to echo the same sentiments as DaveC here. The tail lights look a little small for the rest of the rear,....and I don't like them being recessed on pretty much all sides, just looks a bit dated compared to the present 997.2 in that respect. The fenders do look more inflated rather than muscular. In this respect my C4S looks tons better and just as modern. Not much to like here, although I will really have to wait for when I can see it in the light of day and a different color to pass final judgement. Inside: Couldn't really tell much from peering in through the window. I don't dislike the new look at all, although the shifter does seem to sit really high. Not much of a problem for PDK, but may not be of liking to the stick driver. Overall I think Porsche did a good job on it, looks updated but still 911 IMO. Now would I buy one just on looks alone?,....NO. Aside from the few front end improvements I do like, the rest of the car does not seem to satisfy me as much as my present C4S,....maybe I'll have to wait to see what the "4" version looks like in the 991, and of course the drive might convince me otherwise, but not even sure about that. If I were in the market today for a 911, I'd go for one of the last 997.2 GTS versions at a discount and drive it for years.

First off, I am a huge fan of the improvements in the exterior and interior over the 997. The proportions and lines are stunning, especially in white. And the exhaust really makes this car look like an exotic. This car is much more planted and confidence inspiring than the out going model. And the taillights make this car a rock star! I had some seat time in the car, and to be honest I was underwhelmed. After seeing Chris Harris's review, I was expecting something that would blow me away. The 991 lacks low end torque. Even in sport plus mode, I floored it, but it just doesn't have that kick in the pants feeling. It may be objectively faster than the 997 in terms of 0-60 times, but it doesn't feel faster. And the steering...I was disappointed. It is a step in the wrong direction for sure. It isn't numb. That would be an inaccurate way of describing steering system. I can put the car precisely where I want it, but it just is missing some feeling. It really filters a lot of what I would feel in a 997. Hard to describe until you sit in one and drive. And to add insult to injury, dealerships won't give me a penny off of the sticker.

Unlike you, I don't like the way it looks, but after driving it my experience was exactly as you describe. And the pricing is out of control. A Carrera S, only decently optioned, is the price of last year's Turbo. Ridiculous. More and more I see the 981 platform as the way to go if it lives up to only half of my expectations. It isn't that the 991 is out of my budget, it's that it simply isn't worth that kind of money. The Cayman may be. We'll see next fall.

The dealers in my area have a few available, but I'm sure they are not discounting,....and at this point I would not expect them to. As the year goes by and the supply increases, discounts will be there. Like anything "new" today there are always many people who gotta have it right when it comes out,....at any price,....just look a the morons that stand in line overnight for a new iPhone or iPad and pay the first price Apple comes up with. As for pricing in general,.....yes I do think the price increase for the 991 is a bit on the insane side. I may even be tempted to once again look at the new Cayman when it finally arrives, but something tells me it will take a large jump upward also. For now I'm starting to give a very good look at the Ferrari F430 used marked where very good low mileage examples can be had for $125 ~ $130k. I would have no problem moving away from Porsche at this point with the present pricing.

Dealer allocation here in West Palm isn't full, but more Cabs are sold down here than coupes so those itching to pay MSRP may be waiting for the Cab to come into the showroom. Let's face it, if the dealer's can't get MSRP now for the 991 then when?? So it's no surprise that they are going to hold out for at least a few months. At least in my area there is also a lot of left over inventory they'd rather move. For now I'm starting to give a very good look at the Ferrari F430 used marked where very good low mileage examples can be had for $125 ~ $130k. I would have no problem moving away from Porsche at this point with the present pricing. I've been having the same thoughts.

People are getting discounts. The problem is that they are just not happening in the LA area yet. Some people scored discounts in texas that are larger than 5%. So people are getting discounts, and you just have to ask and to investigate if you are serious of course. I am just unwilling to travel to different states to pick up a mass produced car. Not yet anyways.

I'm in Texas and have two dealers near me, both have a couple 991s in stock. My salesmen from the dealer I got my C4s from 1.5 years ago emailed me recently with when they were coming in and asked if I was interested. Jokingly I told him I would only be interested if I got somewhere near the discount I got on the C4s,....that went over like a led balloon. No discount at all on these. Do I believe some will get discounts,....yes, those who have recently spent $250k or more at the dealer in the last few years. When I was first in line to get a Cayman back in '06 I didn't get a discount,.....but the guy in the spot behind me that had just bought a highly optioned 911 Turbo and was buying the Cayman for his son did. If I gave up my spot, there were 20 other people wanting it that would pay MSRP. A lot has to do with individual dealers and their politics.

Saw the new 991 in person tonight at the dealership. It looks amazing. Doesn't look any bigger than the 997. Just looks sharper and cooler. Slightly more refined. Like they just tightened up all the angles a bit. The most noticeable difference is actually the headlights . From the side the clear plastic covers really bulge out rather than sitting flat but it looks super cool. Love the car. It's perfect. Another gorgeous 911 . I want it.

Sorry, I may have misremembered some of my numbers. I guess my point is though, it's funny how some are calling the 991 less of a sports car and more of a GT car when the S version can easily keep up with the previous generation GT3 version. I would agree if it were slower around the track, but it's faster. Although, much like PDK (which is quicker than manual) there may still be some 'feeling' lost as things get quicker.

oooh - that's exactly what's putting me off it - hope it's not so "fat" in the flesh! A wonderful, attractive Canadian girl once said to me, after my attempt to compliment her on her slim appearance, "well Roger, you know the tastiest meat is that which is closest to the bone..."! I'll never forget that comment, even though it did at the time succeed in turning me into a gibbering mass of useless jelly...............

I wouldn't claim that the 911 is more of a GT. Not sure if you had a test drive at your dealership, but I still stand by this statement: "It may be objectively faster than the 997 in terms of 0-60 times, but it doesn't (subjectively) feel faster."

I went back to my dealer to take a closer look than I got at the party last week. They had one parked outside next to last years GTS . Side by side, the 991 looks better in every way, and not a great deal bigger. The 20 inch wheels and lower roof make it look like an exotic by comparison. PDK with chrono and all the suspension options, sport plus seats and PSE . The interior is more luxurious but plenty sporty. The center consul is tapered and less intrusive to my leg than my Boxter's. Unlike any 911 I ever had (3 over 35 years) or my Boxter S, it is smooth as silk and relatively quiet, clearly a smooth riding grand touring car. Unless you step down hard on the accelerator, push through a sweeper or brake hard for a corner- no muss or fuss. Forget Grand Tourer- it is the best sports car going. At least until the new structures and suspension take the Boxter and Cayman up a similar notch.

I think this has been an interesting thread w/ good discussion. One observation I have made is that we all have different definitions for what constitutes a sports car. That's what makes the world go 'round.

lol. I never said that the 991 isn't a sports car or a real 911 . I am just merely pointing out that it lacks low end torque and some steering input compared to the 997, which makes the 991 a little underwhelming considering how much Chris Harris hyped up this car.

TAKE ME WITH YOU!!! The prices here go down to 100k USD and there are plenty in the market... I love the Spider the most. But I'm very very very skeptical about its reliability. Add to that it has no warranty (not like 458, California, FF and 599 that have nine years transferable warranties). Lastly, I was told the F430 is a track car, not advisable for the streets. Please PM me your story as it develops... I'm very keen to shift to Ferrari but feel for my age category and sanity I should take the Superleggera step first.

I probably disagree a bit here. Side by side you can sure see the differences and I do like the front, sides and slighly lower height, but I still think the 997.2 rear is way better looking. In fact after looking at the new Boxster in pictures, whoever is doing the styling for the rear of all new Porsches today should be fired immediately. That "Saturn Ring" rear spoiler on the Boxster is flat out ugly IMO, but again the front and sides are great. I sure hope the new to come Cayman has someone else design the back. As far as the 991 looking exotic, well that is a bit of a stretch. In fact one of the big problems I have with it is that for the price they are now charging, it needs to look more special than it does. Heck, put a '99 Ferrari 360 next to it and compare,....no contest. I'm all in favor of Porsche keeping the iconic look of the 911 , but they should have used a bit more immagination here. As far as being a GT?.....no, not at all. I still have one of the best GTs ever made.....my 928, and no 911 is even close to it in that respect.

I'm heading to my local dealer to see the 991 tomorrow so I'll hold off on comments re: appearance. Probably won't get any seat time until later this month. One observation: IF (big if) Porsche is moving the 911 in a true GT direction, it may open up a window to let the Cayman , probably in R configuration, become more of the purist's driving car....less refined, more intimate, more tactile, and most importantly, more performance. I think it is more likely that Porsche will continue market/price segmentation and deliver the 991 GT3 (or GTS ) to capture those who want a bit more of the purists driving car....and can afford it. Similarly, the next generation Cayman / Cayman R will step up their game and price. But hey, this is not a stretch to predict. As for my personal preference, I specifically opted for a build to order 2012 GTS versus waiting for the 991. While Porsche is a first rate engineering company, I just have a natural aversion to the first model year of any vehicle. I actually was looking at a Cayman first but stepped up to the 997.2 GTS when the GTS became available. Regardless of the results of my eventual seat time in the new 991S, I will be keeping my GTS for 2 - 3 more years and then will assess what is available at that time. 991 GTS ? GT3? Actually I'm really also tempted to revisit the Cayman given the renderings I've seen. As someone else indicated, the Cayman may be my direction but only if Porsche steps up its performance.

From my POV the "problem" w/ the 911 is that it has become less and less a sports car while not really achieving true GT qualities either. The last 993 was muscular yet compact, spartan, purposeful, and quietly masculine. Air cooled vs. water cooled isn't the issue, it's about focus and purpose. The rear seats were always just a sop to justify the 911 to the wife, a relief from feeling selfish. Beginning w/ the 996 Porsche has continually enlarged the 911 while making it technically complex yet frankly less involving to drive unless you can legally drive really fast. The 997 was the car the 996 should have been but Porsche could not afford to produce at the time, with the 996 likely to join the 964 in 911 history. The 991 is the direction that Porsche is taking for the 21st Century with emerging markets and a new customer base centered on computer technology. Granted, we all have different tastes, expectations, and priorities. For me the 991 has completely departed from my personal definition of a 911. The 997.2 is borderline for me but my wife did not like my Cayman S (which does fit my definition of a true sports car), and hence my current ride. By removing the "vices" of the 911 handling, which made it entertaining and challenging to drive, the 911 rear engine configuration can no longer be justified. Porsche continues w/ the 991 as a marketing exercise, a highly recognizable shape (icon) to distinguish itself from MB, BMW, Jag, etc., the so called Porsche "Identity", the brand, which now includes sedans and trucks. Ring times are holy to internet Porschephiles giving their cars bona fides in the automotive world, but in real world driving they are all but meaningless. What counts in my book is how the car I drive makes me feel behind the wheel, how I feel when I look at the car, sit in the car, wash the car. It's all strictly emotional, which is what I believe is the only honest rationale for owning a sports car in the first place. Fortunately for Porsche, the 991 will ring the bell for many new owners, just not people who think and feel as I do.

Just got back from test-driving the 991. Went out with the salesman and he drove it really fast into the corners and accelerated hard. Felt great from the passenger seat. Then I drove the same road and corners and the front end felt a little vague, like I couldn't be totally sure where the tires were compared to my 987. Maybe it's just about trusting that everything is going to be okay, but there's less direct feedback (IMO). Car is quieter until you step on the throttle then it's nice and throaty. To make a long story short, I'm definitely going to wait for the 981 Cayman this fall. The 991 is gorgeous and crazy fast, but it's not the type of Porsche I want. Comparing it to the 997.2 it's gone ever so slightly more digital and less analogue. The engineers must get frustrated hearing this because that's what most engineers try and do. But with a Porsche you WANT that analogue feel. It's the reason I don't drive an S4, TT, SLK or M3 . The car is very luxurious inside. It has lots of little chrome bits everywhere. Not sure I love the rising center console, but it's just something to get used to. The surfaces are still quite hard (this one had full leather interior) and aren't plush but the car feels fussier inside. Now I'm no 993 lover (I started driving Porsches in 2005) but I can already feel myself worrying that Porsche's are getting too luxurious. Outside appearance-wise I like it more than the 997.2 , but that's subjective. Anyway, that's all I have to offer for now. :thanks:

Can you point me to the best post that describes what the specs of the 981 Cayman may be? Thx

Thanks for the write-up Hawc, that's basically all I need to know..... The 991 is obviously a fantastic piece of engineering, and gorgeous to the eye, but do you really want to drive it.....?

Best comment I've read about the 991. Captures exactly the way I feel.