Which choice ? LN/ Guardian/ Solution ?

First came the LN upgrade Then The Guardian to let you know if you needed the LN and now TheSolution ? If the LN works , Why TheSolution ? Please don't point me to ( old Links) Thanks for your replys

Different solutions to a common problem. The LN IMS update (ceramic hybrid replacement IMS bearing) was designed to be a correction for the failure prone OEM sealed steel bearing. Works well, but is a "maintenance item" that needs to be replaced periodically. Guardian is a warning system to alert owners to a serious pending failure like the IMS. Cheaper and easier to install, can be used as an interim solution on a lower mileage car, or a leased car, until a clutch replacement is required, which is the optimal time to do an IMS/RMS update as they will be exposed as part of the clutch job. The Guardian is also the only real option for the 2005-2008 cars with the OEM oversized IMS, which still can fail, but cannot be updated without totally disassembling the engine. The “Solution” is a permanent fix for the IMS problem, but only on the single row IMS bearing engines.

Hey guys, I just contacted Charles at LN to ask him when and if they were coming out with a permanent solution (I.e. oil pressure feed for the IMS bearing) for the 2006-08 and his reply was that they "will eventually offer an IMS solution for the MY06-08 engines, but not for a while, maybe next year". Looks like pulling the bearing seal facing the flywheel and installing a Guardian Jnr. are still the only form of preventive action at this time, albeit temporary. I wonder how hard it would be to make up a similar oil pressure fed system....I sure would like to try something.

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Problem is that you will still have to disassemble the engine to install it......

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What would be your guess'timate (no feet held to the fire) to do this on an otherwise healthy engine? Also forget any potential "while your in there. . . " options that will obviously come up. Thanks!

Just hope that you have several disposable engines, a few years worth of extra time and your own machine shop.

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Because of the way these engines go together, you cannot do it that way; the engine will require totally disassembly and a complete rebuild is the only real option, as pistons have to be removed from the bores, etc.

JFP, Thanks. Did not realize that. WOW! So in essence, one would add the cost of the Solution to that of a rebuild. Probably an unrealistic "mod" to do for the car.

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One of the big problems with the 2005-2008 M96/97 engine is that may as well throw in the “while you were in there” upgrades if you are going to do the IMS as you will already be spending one heap of cash just to do the IMS, and you really don't want to be doing this twice................

So, in your opinion, is the Guardian (as well as oil analysis and checking the filter every oil change) the only reasonable protection an owner of an '05 -'08 M96/97 motor has?

Unfortunately, that is about it, along with being careful about the oil you run.

We disassemble M97 engines, swap the larger bearing for an IMS Solution bushing and put it all back together again for 8,500.00 parts and labor. Its a full teardown, which we can do blindfolded. Just another day at the office here.

Jake and JFP, I was obviously under the mistaken impression that the IMS Solution was a bolt on affair that ran an oil line from the oil filter to the IMS cover. Thank you for clearing this up. Jake, would you care to weigh in on the suggestion to remove the IMS bearing seal facing flywheel.

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It is for a early M96 single row cars, but not so much for the 06-08 model years (M97) you asked about.

No, you were correct.. But the solution also omits the ball bearing completely. The issue is there is no way to remove your larger M97 bearing with the engine assembled. If your engine was 01-05 the Solution would be a bolt in. We have a method of retrofitting the M97 bearings with the engine assembled and the procedure is part of our parent, but it is very medieval and uncouth.

Can we get back to the original question LN bearing or Guardian or Solution ?

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Its a generational situation more than anything. Here is an overview - 1- Do nothing, say your prayers and play Russian roulette with each twist of the key. This could cost nothing if you are lucky, or could cost 20K if you are unlucky. 2-Employ the IMS Guardian system, this will cost 400.00 if you do it yourself, or 6-800.00 if a shop does the work (do it yourself!!!) 3- Apply the standard "classic" IMS Retrofit procedure of your choice, some are better than others, but any of them are better than nothing. If your car is a 97-2000 the IMS Solution is NOT a possibility for you. The values of these cars has dropped so much that the market for the Solution just isn't there with it's elevated costs. - All 3 listed above plus the addition of the IMS Solution. The 01-early 2005 models are BY FAR the WORST in regard to bearing failures. The single row, early diameter bearing used in these is too small to carry the loads- period. These cars are the ones that the IMS Solution provides the most sense for, since it is easier to install and omits the ball bearing completely. The part that isn't there simply cannot fail; the IMS Solution omits ELEVEN wear components from the engine. - Do nothing - Employ the IMS Guardian Jr system. This is a universal "Engine Guardian" that is cheaper than the standard IMS Guardian but allows integration with any vehicle dash. Its not as clean to install and doesn't look factory, but it does provide audible and visual alarms in case of foreign object debris generation. (LN Engineering will have these in stock in 2 weeks, they are now the exclusive sellers of all IMSG systems. (Cost around 250.00 for the kit and please carry this out as a DIY, don't pay a shop for this work!) - Send the car to us to disassemble the engine, upgrade a few things and employ the IMS Solution with a special unit we have produced. The issue with the late cars is the factory IMS Bearing is too large to remove through the access port in the case without cutting the bearing apart. Cutting a bearing apart inside an engine is medieval, uncouth and only for those that haven't built enough engines to know whats stupid or not. We have an IMS adaptor that we can install into a disassembled M97 engine that fits the single row IMS Solution to it. This allows the IMS Solution bushing to be pulled at a later date if you ever wanted to do so and this can be done without engine disassembly. This cost 8,500.00 all inclusive and NO ONE else can do the work at this cost; because no one else in this country is proficient enough with these engines to carry this work out in a timely manner. We can do this work in less than one week once the vehicle is scheduled in. - Wait at least a year for us to finish the testing of the IMS Solution for the M97 that will be a retrofit. This may never come to pass just because the challenge of removing the OEM bearing without creating more damage than its worth. Don't count on us offering this, because it would be above the heads of most any reasonable shop to carry out these days and it is simply too risky.

Jake, Thank-you for your clear response. Would you care to comment of removing the outside bearing seal on MY 06-08 motors as an interim measure?

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Its better than nothing.

Jake, I have a crate 3.4 ltr. motor built in December, 2005. Would I be correct in assuming I am in your "late 2005 - 2008" category as listed above?

Assumption won't cut it with that one.. Visual inspection of the bearing flange is REQUIRED. Porsche kept horrible records and applied whatever bearing/ shaft they had available in 2005.

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Jake, many thanks. We are fortunate to have you participate in this forum. Cheers....

My clutch was replaced at 48k by the previous owner. I will replace the clutch and have the bearing upgrade done at the same time. I got the 996 with 70k. Good car so far. I don't want to hurt any feelings but the "guardian" is an overpriced "after the fact "idea that I can't agree with. If I keep down-shifting, maybe the clutch will last for a while. I have 86.5K on the motor now and like I said... when it is clutch time, I will upgrade. The "Guardian" actually lets you know that something is going south but it doesn't fix nothing. If it cost us a couple hundred bucks. (check out the minimum small part that is required), I might have thought about it. I'll wait 'til I need a new clutch.

I like the plain bearing solution but the oil line could be a weak link in the design. With the oil line located quite low, just below the transmission, any sharp debris or just going over a speed bump can puncture it and drain your oil. Then IMS solution "spin-on oil filter adapter" will accelerate the oil drainage in no time. Something to think about.

Ummn, the oil line is NOT low.. It is actually higher than any other component in the region. If you rip this oil line off you won't have an exhaust system left either. In our 6,788 mile success tour we hit a huge road hazard in the middle of Canadian wheat fields 200 miles from Calgary. It busted the engine oil sump plate but did not create any damage to the IMS Solution. That impact occurred at 90 MPH and did not leave us stranded due to some improvising. Had to limp into Calgary and take 40 minutes to change the sump plate. The hose that is used is not light duty, it is genuine Aeroquip stainless steel reinforced. Put simply, if you rip the oil hose off the engine, you have had an impact that will guarantee that you won't be driving anywhere. With all due respect, your assumption in regard to ground clearance couldn't be further off base.

I'm looking at a 2003 911, am I right in assuming it would have the single row IMS bearing? This problem is not a deal killer for me, but is the "final solution" refit available for it? and what is a ballpark figure for the work? Thanks, dave

All engines 2001-2005 that were not replaced by a Reman/ new OEM engine after 2006 will have a single row bearing. These are compatible with the IMS Solution. The cost is 3,500.00 for us to install the IMSS, all inclusive with oil, RMS, clutch kit, sump cleaning and pre/ post evaluations to include a dyno evaluation. We are booked until June with only one slot remaining in May.

Thanks, jake. appreciate the fast response. Dave

Jake: Will the IMS Solution be available to my Indy shop this summer? He has done several of the '01'-05' LN bearing installations and highly recommends them. The IMS Solution seems to be the way to go. I've only 22,000 on my "01 which I just purchased three months ago and I want to get the potential bearing problem behind me. Thanks. George G.

This Direct Oil Feed DOF especially for 2005> DIRECT OIL FEED (DOF) FOR IMS BEARINGS | TuneRS Motorsports

I have to admit, if I was AT ALL interested in after market monkey bearing nonsense (which thankfully I'm not) this would be the way I would go. Especially with the massive number of install failures of IMS parts we're seeing these days. At least this "fix" is relatively passive and won't blow up your motor, provided you didn't actually screw around with the bearing.

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This is not something I really have heard much about. What information have you heard regarding this issue? It seems to me that LN ceramic bearing retrofits have a good track record? I don't mean this in an argumentative way at all, just trying to learn more! Thank you!

OK, I am really surprised that I have never heard about tuneRS and their direct oil Feed solution. It looks like a logical solution so why no hoopla???? Quite frankly, I am really peeved that we are being inundated with the price tag of $8,500 for a 3.8 IMS solution when it appears that there may be other solutions in the wind. I'm no expert, but I like my 997 and I'll do lots to keep it going. So..... why is the Tune RS not a good alternative at less than $1,000 DIY?? Is there a better alternative??

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There are very supportable differences of opinion as to where any oil feed should come from on these cars, some based upon years of testing and evaluation of which is the best source and why, others less so. Do some research rather than just accepting the first posting on any new idea.......

So what are you saying JFP? Are there others that even offer a reasonably priced solution for the later cars with the over-sized IMS bearing that requires total disassembly to replace? Aside from TuneRS I certainly have never come across any to even assess. LN does not offer anything. Who else is there? And I do get your point about the oil pickup source-LN's being filtered oil and from a central source and TuneRS coming off the cam tower which is unfiltered and may rob oil needed in that critical area.

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There's been a lot disinformation about the DOF whether intentional or not. Let me clear it up, again. The source for the DOF's oil is provided by Porsche right on the engine. We don't have to add spin-on adapters. The DOF's oil port is an M14x1.5 plug right on the engine. Here's a diagram from Porsche showing the oil flow in the M96/M97 engine. We've highlighted the route of the DOF flow in red to make it easier to follow: As you can see from the diagram: the oil flows from the oil pan (#1) Up the pickup tube (#2) through the main pump (#3) through the filter (#5) through the oil cooler (#7) and directly to the port on the engine (DOF Adapter) This oil is therefore filtered and cooled and does not pass over any other component in the engine where it can collect debris or other. It does NOT come off the cams (#8 & #11) and it does not rob oil from the cams or lifters. The oil feed comes off the oil cooler from where it's distributed to the lifters, cams and DOF each independently. We have tested the pressure losses to one side bank and the other with and without the DOF feed and we measure less than 2 psi difference at 60 psi working pressure. The DOF provides the open bearing with a stream of approximately 1 liter (1 Qt.) of filtered, cooled oil every minute, cooling the surfaces and as important properly lubricating them. The excess oil drops right back into the oil pan where it's mixed with the rest of the engine oil and goes through the system again. There is an oil pressure regulator valve that compensates and adjusts oil pressures constantly. If you record the engine's oil pressure you'll see that it's not steady or constant it fluctuates up and down depending on what the car is doing (accelerating, braking, turning, etc.). Our system has been duly tested in street and racecars for several years with great results using every type of common IMS bearing: OEM steel ball (single and double row) and new-style single row, aftermarket single and double row ceramic balls and aftermarket roller bearing. Our conclusion is very simple: The bearing is not the problem, it's the lack of proper lubrication! I hope this clears it up, if not, feel free to contact any of us and we'll offer whatever information you need to fully understand the Direct Oil Feed System for the IMS bearing in the M96/M97 engines. Happy Porscheing, Pedro

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Is this applicable to the later M97s made after 2006 without major disassembly? Edit: I just checked out your website, looks like no major disassembly...

Pedro, thank you for chiming in and clearing thing up, at least to me. I am glad that there is finally a reasonable alternative to addressing the IMS issue on later engines such as my 997.1S.

Sorry to jump in on this thread but it seems to be the most comprehensive on the 997 issues. Being in the market for an 05 Cab, this would appear to be the non serviceable IMS since I understand the cabs were not produced until later in the production run. From what I am reading, I am coming to the conclusion to just stay away from the M97 engines. Is this a fair assumption, price aside? Jake, would appreciate your comments as well if possible as I am in your area. Bob

Just thought that everyone should be aware that a parallel thread to this can be found on Renntech where Pedro explains further the DOF system. Post #7 on..... tuneRS Direct Oil Feed - 996 Series (Carrera, Carrera 4, Carrera 4S, Targa) - RennTech.org Forums I, for one, am now convinced that the DOF is the way to go for my 997.1S. Johan

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I thought it was cheap insurance. If something goes south, you can at least pull over before the whole thing blows. Only problem I had was something hit it and ripped the cable off... Then oil began to leak through the cabling somehow. Have since sold the car. Not for that reason of course.

I went with Tuners RS DOF system

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I am really leaning toward dong this as well. May I ask who did it for you and approximate cost?

Some things Pedro forgot to mention is that there are inline filters and coolers available as options to the DOF, for even cleaner, cooler oil. One benefit of oil feed is that the IMSB gets oil right at start-up. I believe that the bearing can drain of oil when the engine has not been run for a long period of time, especially if the car is resting at an angle that places the IMSB high and dry of the sump oil. Just a theory.

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Walter, at start-up, the bearing gets plenty of oil after only 4 liters of oil. Tested it myself. See post #48 in Clutch, AOS, Water Pump, Thermostat DIY Questions - Page 3 - 997-1 Series (Carrera, Carrera 4, Carrera 2S, Carrera 4S) - RennTech.org Forums Cheers Johan

Thanks Johan, for that info. I am speaking about the pre 2005 bearings. From the information I have gathered so far, it appears that the oil level reaching the bearings bottom side of the outer race inside diameter is not always a sure thing. When your oil flowed out the IMS bearing bore, it still has nearly an additional 1/2 inch to go before possibly enter the bearing. Referring to the late 2005 and later, larger size bearing, it may very well be that the bearing gets oil to the rollers when the engine is off. But, if the seals are removed and the car is parked at an angle that does not allow oil to enter the bearing, oil in the bearing might drain out over a period of time. The question then is how long will it take for that bearing to receive oil after starting the engine.

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Walter, The bearing is covered with only four of the eight liters of oil with a very slight frontward slope (rear wheels only 1.5" higher as I recall). In normal circumstances an additional 4-5 liters to operating capacity would handle slopes. Moral is never park the car sloping backwards! Notwithstanding, I'm installing a DOF this summer. Cheers, Johan

I guess all of these remedies have been driving around a while, might I ask if anyone has experienced any failures with any of them? I own a 00 C4 with 25K running fine but plan on doing some kind of remediation with a new clutch. Has anyone had secondary problems after a fix? DOF seems to make the most sense to me with a probable bearing replacement also. Also, as a DIY sort of guy, any videos/DVDs out there on doing the retrofit? Any info would be helpful thank you Franz