Would you buy a Porsche from someone who serviced it himself - Page 4 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

I've been debating with people online (mostly Americans) who are adamant that it is better to service your own Porsche rather than take it to a specialist. They believe that: -Any work can be done in your garage simply by following a Youtube tutorial -A specialist who works on these cars everyday is just as likely to make a mistake as a home mechanic, there's no reason to believe a Porsche specialist would perform better work -It is better to buy from someone who worked on their own car because it shows pride in the vehicle I personally would not touch a car without full service history, otherwise there is no way to know if routine maintenance was carried out on schedule. The American attitude towards cars really baffles me.

I maintain and service mine. But it's a 1990 964 Targa without matching numbers and a patchy service history so not at the top of anyones wish list.

ffc said: I maintain and service mine. But it's a 1990 964 Targa without matching numbers and a patchy service history so not at the top of anyones wish list. That makes sense, but these Americans are talking about 997's and 987's.

Well... are buyers happy to buy from them? If not, then they can explain all they want about the reasons why it's a good idea but clearly nobody believes them. I mean I wouldn't buy a 997 that didn't have a proper service history! (Unless it was going for £5k.)

DarkVeil said: I personally would not touch a car without full service history, otherwise there is no way to know if routine maintenance was carried out on schedule. So you think that because a car has full service history, it has been maintained correctly? There are enough stories on this very forum to suggest the opposite. I have a few of my own, granted not Porsche related. I have put my trust in various garages and that trust has been broken. I now tend to try and do most of the work myself thus knowing exactly what has been done, and how. If the car in question has a ton of paperwork and receipts to show the money has been spent and the car looks and drives as such, then I would suggest its worth considering. I am not saying that all garages cannot be trusted (I have actually found a couple), just that a FSH isn't a solid guarantee for quality, thorough maintenance.

DarkVeil said: The American attitude towards cars really baffles me. Lots of people self-service their cars. I've often wondered though if in % terms the US self-servicing is the same as other markets, just in '000s there might be more of them. Modding sports & supercars is also prevalent in the US. Completely different to Europe which insists on OEM. Don't forget there could be lots of Porsche owners that have to drive a long way to get to their dealer, or others are dealing with harsher climates and want an oil change more frequently than the manufacture states. To each their own. I know lots of people that self-service in the UK.

Lincsls1 said: So you think that because a car has full service history, it has been maintained correctly? No, but a car lacking a service history is a big red flag.

DarkVeil said: No, but a car lacking a service history is a big red flag. Also makes me wonder, could I claim that it's been fully services by myself even if I haven't serviced the car in 3 years? #bangernomics

Hoofy said: Also makes me wonder, could I claim that it's been fully services by myself even if I haven't serviced the car in 3 years? #bangernomics Of course, but the reverse is also true. There are examples of people of this Porsche forum that have paid for a full service with invoice for X Y and Z only to shortly after find Z hasn't been changed at all. I remember one chap that was billed for replacement plugs on his 911, but turned out they hadn't been changed at all. The garage claimed it was just a mistake.

Lincsls1 said: Of course, but the reverse is also true. There are examples of people of this Porsche forum that have paid for a full service with invoice for X Y and Z only to shortly after find Z hasn't been changed at all. I remember one chap that was billed for replacement plugs on his 911, but turned out they hadn't been changed at all. The garage claimed it was just a mistake. Do you recall which garage it was? Was it a well known specialist?

DarkVeil said: No, but a car lacking a service history is a big red flag. I do agree, but I guess it depends on your definition of service history. My Monaro for example had a 'FSH' up till when I bought it 5 years ago, but next to no paperwork or invoices. Since then its only had one official specialist service, but it now has a folder 2 inches thick with invoices and receipts totalling £ thousands. Factor in it can be physically seen by looking at the condition of the car, is this not classed as a service history?

A 997 is an easy diy to work on if you have the correct tools (save for the number corroded fasteners there will be). My wife's for example would be easy to spot imo as a well looked after car compared to one which simply came with a lot of service stamps. I could show you how I replaced heat shields that were showing signs of corrosion, how I've replaced manifold fasteners with stainless ones, how I've fitted stone guards out of sight to protect the rads etc. If I've bothered to do this and can show you receipts for the correct gearbox oil, engine oil, final drive oil, filters, belts etc then it's probably a better bet than one which has been to a garage who may or may not have actually done what they billed for. Plus you need to judge the individual who claims to have done the jobs, a four post lift and £10k of Snap On tools is more convincing than a socket set from the middle of Lidl and a Halfords trolley jack.

DarkVeil said: Do you recall which garage it was? Was it a well known specialist? No sorry, I don't. I'm not in Porsche circles, but do like to browse many threads that catch my interest and that one obviously did, but not having a Porsche mean't not paying too much attention to that detail. Actually, I remember the usual can't name and shame stance. But it was a specialist, not a regular any make and model garage.

1690cc said: A 997 is an easy diy to work on if you have the correct tools (save for the number corroded fasteners there will be). My wife's for example would be easy to spot imo as a well looked after car compared to one which simply came with a lot of service stamps. I could show you how I replaced heat shields that were showing signs of corrosion, how I've replaced manifold fasteners with stainless ones, how I've fitted stone guards out of sight to protect the rads etc. If I've bothered to do this and can show you receipts for the correct gearbox oil, engine oil, final drive oil, filters, belts etc then it's probably a better bet than one which has been to a garage who may or may not have actually done what they billed for. Plus you need to judge the individual who claims to have done the jobs, a four post lift and £10k of Snap On tools is more convincing than a socket set from the middle of Lidl and a Halfords trolley jack. This, in a nutshell really.

DarkVeil said: That makes sense, but these Americans are talking about 997's and 987's. I think I'd do the same with a 996/997 and 987/981. I'd use the cars and at that age they're much less likely to have a full history.

Lincsls1 said: 1690cc said: A 997 is an easy diy to work on if you have the correct tools (save for the number corroded fasteners there will be). My wife's for example would be easy to spot imo as a well looked after car compared to one which simply came with a lot of service stamps. I could show you how I replaced heat shields that were showing signs of corrosion, how I've replaced manifold fasteners with stainless ones, how I've fitted stone guards out of sight to protect the rads etc. If I've bothered to do this and can show you receipts for the correct gearbox oil, engine oil, final drive oil, filters, belts etc then it's probably a better bet than one which has been to a garage who may or may not have actually done what they billed for. Plus you need to judge the individual who claims to have done the jobs, a four post lift and £10k of Snap On tools is more convincing than a socket set from the middle of Lidl and a Halfords trolley jack. This, in a nutshell really. Totally. Doesn’t take a trained professional to place a rubber stamp on a page. I’ve had dealer services done where they’ve not stamped the book, I forget to give it to them… Often wondered why used cars from a dealer rarely come with any history file, receipts etc…plenty of stamps…but when someone hands a car over with all those bits and pieces there, bulbs, batteries, wiper blades, oil top ups etc, that tells you a lot about the previous owner.

The obsession with dealer service in the UK is something you are being taken advantage by. You can’t get a Porsche extended warranty if you have the wrong tyres on. It BS. I’m the US Porsche will honor a written of car’s warranty if the accident damage didn’t impact the cause for warranty claim. I changed the brakes on my 2013 Cayenne GTS in 2016 for two reasons. One, Porsche wanted $5k and two the parts I replaced them with were better than OEM. My car has been back to Porsche many times for both service and maintenance work. The dealer want my car as an excellent example. I would say, in the US, if the owner has full dealer service history then it’s likely not enthusiast owned. My car is driven as it should be. That means that it has never been over 3k revs when cold. It also means I knew to get the transfer case replaced under warranty without symptoms. A full main dealer car probably would not have had that because, in my experience, Porsche are not proactively saying “you need us to do a $5k job at our expense”.

Yes ,I would like to see invoices for service items and parts but I know plenty talented diy'ers who will look after their pride and joy better than some youth who is still recovering from being on the piss watching the football all Sunday!

h0b0 said: The obsession with dealer service in the UK is something you are being taken advantage by. You can’t get a Porsche extended warranty if you have the wrong tyres on. It BS. I’m the US Porsche will honor a written of car’s warranty if the accident damage didn’t impact the cause for warranty claim. I changed the brakes on my 2013 Cayenne GTS in 2016 for two reasons. One, Porsche wanted $5k and two the parts I replaced them with were better than OEM. My car has been back to Porsche many times for both service and maintenance work. The dealer want my car as an excellent example. I would say, in the US, if the owner has full dealer service history then it’s likely not enthusiast owned. My car is driven as it should be. That means that it has never been over 3k revs when cold. It also means I knew to get the transfer case replaced under warranty without symptoms. A full main dealer car probably would not have had that because, in my experience, Porsche are not proactively saying “you need us to do a $5k job at our expense”. I said specialist, not main dealer.

I do almost everything myself, the only thing I did not do was a gearbox rebuild (but I still ordered all the parts myself). If you want to buy pretty and meaningless pieces of paper, that's fine. My car came with full service history from Porsche and very reputable specialists. The number of shortcuts and bodges I discover when doing some work myself... No one gives the slightest damn about your car, or you for that matter. They only want their paycheque, going to work and working on your car is just an inconvenience that they have to go through so that their cheque arrives. As long as your car makes it back out the door and you don't return in a couple of days - Success. Go on, pay for paper certifying that your car has been in the hands of an employee who really could not care less, not about the standard of his work, the money you might unnecessarily be spending, nothing. LOL if you think that any OPC or specialist will even come close to the standard of any half knowledgeable fastidious hands on owner. My absolute nightmare when I can't do something myself. Keep your fancy stamped booklet, I am not even going to ask you for it. I'd much rather a lot less was done than recorded.

DarkVeil said: I've been debating with people online (mostly Americans) who are adamant that it is better to service your own Porsche rather than take it to a specialist. They believe that: -Any work can be done in your garage simply by following a Youtube tutorial -A specialist who works on these cars everyday is just as likely to make a mistake as a home mechanic, there's no reason to believe a Porsche specialist would perform better work -It is better to buy from someone who worked on their own car because it shows pride in the vehicle I personally would not touch a car without full service history, otherwise there is no way to know if routine maintenance was carried out on schedule. The American attitude towards cars really baffles me. Wow, what a real strange post. What Porsche, 959, CGT? A FSH is only as good as the people working on the car. As for Americans, this I'm totally lost on. Judging just by PH alone there's many Brits that service/maintain their own Porsche. Does that attitude baffle you too? And as for ''I personally would not touch a car without full service history, otherwise there is no way to know if routine maintenance was carried out on schedule.'', really. Receipts and full proper inspection would put that to bed, not to mention speaking with the owner. Sure, it's nice to have a FSH supported by invoices from an OPC or a specialist but that's not always a reason to buy a particular Porsche. Edited by JJJ. on Sunday 20th August 21:36

DarkVeil said: h0b0 said: The obsession with dealer service in the UK is something you are being taken advantage by. You can’t get a Porsche extended warranty if you have the wrong tyres on. It BS. I’m the US Porsche will honor a written of car’s warranty if the accident damage didn’t impact the cause for warranty claim. I changed the brakes on my 2013 Cayenne GTS in 2016 for two reasons. One, Porsche wanted $5k and two the parts I replaced them with were better than OEM. My car has been back to Porsche many times for both service and maintenance work. The dealer want my car as an excellent example. I would say, in the US, if the owner has full dealer service history then it’s likely not enthusiast owned. My car is driven as it should be. That means that it has never been over 3k revs when cold. It also means I knew to get the transfer case replaced under warranty without symptoms. A full main dealer car probably would not have had that because, in my experience, Porsche are not proactively saying “you need us to do a $5k job at our expense”. I said specialist, not main dealer. Even better then. My very highly regarded specialist refitted a thermostat but told me they replaced it. A couple of months later I started having issues that they couldn’t diagnose. They kept trying and failing. It got to the point the car was close to being undriveable. I took it to the dealer and they were baffled as well. I went on rennlist and the first reply nailed it. They had damaged the thermostat on the refit. I was in disbeleif as why would you not replace a $400 part when you are $2000 in? Why tell me you had replaced it? The invoice even says replaced. But, it wasn’t on the parts list. I had been told the thermostat came with the housing. Wrong! I was so frustrated after 9 months of not being able to drive me car I offered to sell it at a 30% discount. I even listed it on autotrader at 25% discount and got an offer from Car Max. On the day I was meant to drop the car off at car max I changed my mind and I told the dealer to replace the thermostat. They initially refused as they thought it was parts cannon. I told them I took responsibility and knew it was a risk. The car was fixed same day.

DarkVeil said: I've been debating with people online (mostly Americans) who are adamant that it is better to service your own Porsche rather than take it to a specialist. They believe that: -Any work can be done in your garage simply by following a Youtube tutorial -A specialist who works on these cars everyday is just as likely to make a mistake as a home mechanic, there's no reason to believe a Porsche specialist would perform better work -It is better to buy from someone who worked on their own car because it shows pride in the vehicle I personally would not touch a car without full service history, otherwise there is no way to know if routine maintenance was carried out on schedule. The American attitude towards cars really baffles me. The specialist works quicker not necessarily better. Time is money for them. Broken clip or bolt, if it can't be seen it's not going back in. I've seen garages charge for stuff and not do it, it was literally in the history of cars ive bought. They're not going to clean as they go, notice other bits that could be done or tied up while they're in there. Undertrays (if they've even bothered to refit them) will be half tied on with cable ties. I'm with the Americans on this one. Dealer/specialist service history is to be taken with a pinch of salt. Even some main dealers don't use genuine parts to save money, they'll charge you for them though. With caveats obviously but then I'm not scared to bring the ramps to a viewing and look with my own eyes. Edited by ChocolateFrog on Monday 21st August 08:40

I ensure the big ticket items are done by a reputable specialist, but I do plenty myself. I did the starter and Air oil separator on my 987, after paying for an oil and gearbox oil service 'for the stamp' and so I know it's been done right. If I choose to do an oil change again later this year I'll do it myself. I'll be doing the brakes myself shortly. Killed the front pads at the Nurburgring! To be honest I buy cars with decent history and maintain them pretty fastidiously (the mechanicals anyway, not too fussed how shiny it is). If a prospective buyer doesn't like that I've gone over and above with a few DIY items then that's their loss.

After a certain age a FPSH is worth less than an enthusiast’s work .Parts invoices to prove etc .As an enthusiastic owner you can do more preventative stuff the commission hungry “parts throwers “@ franchised dealer can do .Sorry should have mentioned younger just out of nappies techs . The real skilled techs leave and set up on there own often to higher moral standards. As far as £ depreciation goes .I sold a Bentley GT to WBAC and the “ self service “ cost me only £200 .Yes Two hundred chipped on a car that alternates £800 to £1600 Pa assuming nothing else needs doing .I had the car 7 yrs so you do the cost saving maths . Currently enjoying looking after properly my 987.2 .There nowt that special it’s only a car .

Reading a few replies, I feel like it's about people who would be happy to buy a car from themselves. The issue is when someone says they've serviced it themselves for the last 3 or 4 years and you're a prospective buyer. It gets more difficult there. Are they actually good at what they're doing? Or are they trying to run a Porsche on the cheap? How can someone who has no mechanical knowledge (me) know the difference between a competent person and an idiot?

Hoofy said: Reading a few replies, I feel like it's about people who would be happy to buy a car from themselves. The issue is when someone says they've serviced it themselves for the last 3 or 4 years and you're a prospective buyer. It gets more difficult there. Are they actually good at what they're doing? Or are they trying to run a Porsche on the cheap? How can someone who has no mechanical knowledge (me) know the difference between a competent person and an idiot? The same argument that people who insist on paying to have their cars serviced by OPC's - and to service schedules (2 years/20k miles), who say getting same car serviced yearly instead at a good independent is detrimental to future values?! I know what I'd prefer if buying. But to answer the OP's question, no I'm fairly confident I would not buy from a DIY servicer unless there were very good reasons too, but the big caveat would be based on what the car in questions asking price was, eg: a £60k 718GTS would be a no-no, but a £22k 981 would be less concerned over some not all of its service history being DIY'd. But this is PH's so money is no issue to many (apparently), lol.

WeirdNeville said: I ensure the big ticket items are done by a reputable specialist, but I do plenty myself. I did the starter and Air oil separator on my 987, after paying for an oil and gearbox oil service 'for the stamp' and so I know it's been done right. If I choose to do an oil change again later this year I'll do it myself. I think for resale, that's the way to do it. The market only seems to care about a few stamps in the book. You can do the actual maintenance however you like, so long as you get a few stamps in the book for the oil changes. Think buying a self-serviced Porsche can be fine. But also think you have to be realistic about how it impacts resale value. So you want to price in the fact that most of the market will view it as a car without the correct service history and pay a bit less for it.

Fnumber1user said: Hoofy said: Reading a few replies, I feel like it's about people who would be happy to buy a car from themselves. The issue is when someone says they've serviced it themselves for the last 3 or 4 years and you're a prospective buyer. It gets more difficult there. Are they actually good at what they're doing? Or are they trying to run a Porsche on the cheap? How can someone who has no mechanical knowledge (me) know the difference between a competent person and an idiot? The same argument that people who insist on paying to have their cars serviced by OPC's - and to service schedules (2 years/20k miles), who say getting same car serviced yearly instead at a good independent is detrimental to future values?! I know what I'd prefer if buying. Well, yes. I think the market will value a full OPC service. A recognised indie would come second. Trailing way behind is probably a standard garage, and barge pole status would be the self-serviced (fnar) ones, even if one car in reality is serviced to a level far superior to an OPC!

OP specifically called out US people he was debating with. You are debating culture. Cars in the US are to get from A to B. They are run into the ground and scrapped. In the UK of you have none N tyres you void the warranty. In the US I had a car with front end impact that caused it to be written off. It was repaired with new Porsche parts. Later in its life it required warranty work on the engine wiring harness. Porsche USA insisted on a new harness under warranty. In the US, if you work on your cars you are an enthusiast.people who cant work on their cars go to the dealer and complain about how expensive it is. If you are cheap you either go to a $100 oil change place for a service, or don’t maintain the car.

Following up on my previous post, I used to work for a company that had hundreds of cars in their fleet. All bought brand new from Ford. We had explorers, Taurus and Edges. None of them saw a dealer ever after delivery. They were run very hard up to 80k miles and then dumped at auction. Some were doing 60-80k in a year. We did change the oil every 5k miles which is part of owning a car in the US. The locals don’t trust extended service schedules and believe the secret to long engine life is changing the oil. Those servicing their own cars will almost certainly be changing the oil more often than the schedule. I know my friends all do.

DarkVeil said: Lincsls1 said: So you think that because a car has full service history, it has been maintained correctly? No, but a car lacking a service history is a big red flag. Not necessarily Service history is just a big comfort blanket. Buyer wants comfort knowing he or she is buying a good car. That is all. Once you start working on these cars [yourself] you start to learn more and understand more. You could then inspect one yourself with no service history and see for yourself if it's a good car. I do my own servicing because I enjoy it. I see it as part of the ownership experience. I am no expert. If you are mechanically illiterate then you have no choice but to rely on stuff like full service history. If you are mechanically literate then full service history doesn't really mean anything [on a 20 year old Porsche]. A well maintained car will have new rads or condensers or suspension arms or etc etc etc but a main dealer full service history car could be all original underneath and just have correct schedule oil changes using Mobil 1 oil. I'd rather buy the car with no service history if I can feel the clutch is smooth as butter and soft like new. And I can see the brake discs are new. And I can feel the suspension is tight. I don't need to see invoices. I just need to see and feel the car. If you are buying your first Porsche you are nothing like Me.

Yes. As long as they seemed competent. The difficulty is that there's a lot of well meaning home mechanics who think they know what they're doing but learn on their own car.

From a ramdom who has a nice tool kit and you don't know from Adam, no. I bought my Cayman private but only after a 111 point check was carried out, yes I know its only a tick box check but its the Porsche stipulation for warranty cover, that was good enough for me and then I had a car with a manufacturer warranty. OPC maintained cars have a pile of paperwork with them to say they have been maintained to Porsche standards, a large proportion of Porsche customers have no inclination of buying from a specialist never mind a private seller who does a major service in their garage. Its the trust people buy on and if you can't trust the dealer network don't complain if you buy a lemon from elsewhere.

ATM said: A well maintained car will have new rads or condensers or suspension arms or etc etc etc but a main dealer full service history car could be all original underneath and just have correct schedule oil changes using Mobil 1 oil. Would you come and buy my fully Porsche serviced fourteen year old 20k mile Cayman which has only one condenser changed no brakes or suspension work carried out but passed every MOT and drives perfectly fine.

Klippie said: Would you come and buy my fully Porsche serviced fourteen year old 20k mile Cayman which has only one condenser changed no brakes or suspension work carried out but passed every MOT and drives perfectly fine. Not if its a gen 1 m97 as they scare me. But if I was in the market for one sure yes. Low mileage and dry stored is a different ball game from well used. I bought a 2001 boxster with zero history but super low mileage and dry stored. It had a few niggles from lack of use which I am working through. I don't drive it much but I'm hoping I will once I've finished my latest plan of maintenance jobs - sagging engine mounts and split drive shaft gaitors.

ATM said: Not necessarily Service history is just a big comfort blanket. Buyer wants comfort knowing he or she is buying a good car. That is all. Once you start working on these cars [yourself] you start to learn more and understand more. You could then inspect one yourself with no service history and see for yourself if it's a good car. I do my own servicing because I enjoy it. I see it as part of the ownership experience. I am no expert. If you are mechanically illiterate then you have no choice but to rely on stuff like full service history. If you are mechanically literate then full service history doesn't really mean anything [on a 20 year old Porsche]. A well maintained car will have new rads or condensers or suspension arms or etc etc etc but a main dealer full service history car could be all original underneath and just have correct schedule oil changes using Mobil 1 oil. I'd rather buy the car with no service history if I can feel the clutch is smooth as butter and soft like new. And I can see the brake discs are new. And I can feel the suspension is tight. I don't need to see invoices. I just need to see and feel the car. If you are buying your first Porsche you are nothing like Me. So if you weren't as knowledgeable on the mechanicals then the answer is no?

DarkVeil said: ATM said: Not necessarily Service history is just a big comfort blanket. Buyer wants comfort knowing he or she is buying a good car. That is all. Once you start working on these cars [yourself] you start to learn more and understand more. You could then inspect one yourself with no service history and see for yourself if it's a good car. I do my own servicing because I enjoy it. I see it as part of the ownership experience. I am no expert. If you are mechanically illiterate then you have no choice but to rely on stuff like full service history. If you are mechanically literate then full service history doesn't really mean anything [on a 20 year old Porsche]. A well maintained car will have new rads or condensers or suspension arms or etc etc etc but a main dealer full service history car could be all original underneath and just have correct schedule oil changes using Mobil 1 oil. I'd rather buy the car with no service history if I can feel the clutch is smooth as butter and soft like new. And I can see the brake discs are new. And I can feel the suspension is tight. I don't need to see invoices. I just need to see and feel the car. If you are buying your first Porsche you are nothing like Me. So if you weren't as knowledgeable on the mechanicals then the answer is no? That's my thinking. I guess for someone who is good on the mechanicals, it could be a way of getting a cheaper car because most people will not touch the car but there will be a gem out there. Snag is when it comes to selling it, you might be waiting ages for a buyer who is as knowledgeable.

As someone who is currently window shopping for a 996, I’ll chirp in here. I’m an ex-apprentice mechanic, so whilst not an expert, I’ll happily change a cam belt or take an engine out. I’m also pretty OCD. My work vans turn the lights on and put food on the table. Without them, I don’t earn any money. They need to be in tip-top condition at all times. IMO, forget about service schedules. All of my vehicles, (8 currently on the driveway), get serviced way in excess of what the manufacturers recommend. I do all of that work myself. Why? Because garages are a business. If they can cut a corner, then they will do. I keep all receipts, take photos and keep spreadsheets of all the work I’ve done. If I went to buy a vehicle that had the depth of (home) service history with receipts and evidence that my vehicles have, and the condition backed-up that history, I wouldn’t have any concerns about buying it. Unless it was bodywork, interior re-trim or a full resto, I’d do it myself.

Hoofy said: Also makes me wonder, could I claim that it's been fully services by myself even if I haven't serviced the car in 3 years? #bangernomics One look at the oil would confirm it hasn't been serviced though.

DarkVeil said: So if you weren't as knowledgeable on the mechanicals then the answer is no? I guess so I don't want to go on and on but buying a 20 year old Porsche with very little knowledge on the mechanicals feels risky to me. These cars can eat money quickly if you want your car right. But if you buy a very well serviced car you will be fine. Again a full service history doesn't mean its well serviced. However to add balance I will say you could enjoy owning one of these even if it isn't right. Either because you are blissfully unaware or you are willing to accept a below par car in the knowledge that making it right would cost several thousand pounds and you prefer to not do that. For some the ownership experience is just having a Porsche.

Hoofy said: That's my thinking. I guess for someone who is good on the mechanicals, it could be a way of getting a cheaper car because most people will not touch the car but there will be a gem out there. Snag is when it comes to selling it, you might be waiting ages for a buyer who is as knowledgeable. Thinking about resale is a problem. I try to not do that. If you do you are constantly thinking about what other people want when they buy your car. And yes an enthusiastic home servicer will need to sell to someone else like minded. The Internet helps here. I've seen lots of cars with their own blogs getting lavished with love and attention by their keen DIY owner which when sold acts as a sales tool but would only really be meaningful to another like minded buyer or maybe a novice with some savvy willing to read through it all.

ATM said: Hoofy said: That's my thinking. I guess for someone who is good on the mechanicals, it could be a way of getting a cheaper car because most people will not touch the car but there will be a gem out there. Snag is when it comes to selling it, you might be waiting ages for a buyer who is as knowledgeable. Thinking about resale is a problem. I try to not do that. If you do you are constantly thinking about what other people want when they buy your car. And yes an enthusiastic home servicer will need to sell to someone else like minded. The Internet helps here. I've seen lots of cars with their own blogs getting lavished with love and attention by their keen DIY owner which when sold acts as a sales tool but would only really be meaningful to another like minded buyer or maybe a novice with some savvy willing to read through it all. Fair point!

Hoofy said: ATM said: Hoofy said: That's my thinking. I guess for someone who is good on the mechanicals, it could be a way of getting a cheaper car because most people will not touch the car but there will be a gem out there. Snag is when it comes to selling it, you might be waiting ages for a buyer who is as knowledgeable. Thinking about resale is a problem. I try to not do that. If you do you are constantly thinking about what other people want when they buy your car. And yes an enthusiastic home servicer will need to sell to someone else like minded. The Internet helps here. I've seen lots of cars with their own blogs getting lavished with love and attention by their keen DIY owner which when sold acts as a sales tool but would only really be meaningful to another like minded buyer or maybe a novice with some savvy willing to read through it all. Fair point! My cars have blogs but they are seriously lacking any meaningful content. Must try harder....

the-norseman said: Hoofy said: Also makes me wonder, could I claim that it's been fully services by myself even if I haven't serviced the car in 3 years? #bangernomics One look at the oil would confirm it hasn't been serviced though. How would you look at the oil? 987 997 onwards don’t have a dipstick I’ve just changed the oil in my 987 cayman s,new filter and crush washer, all receipts to prove,takes 20 mins or so to change the oil,I don’t see the problem doing it yourself,with bills to prove.I rebuilt the suspension and did the brakes and fitted a new exhaust last year too-all the paperwork is present,most of the stuff on these cars is very simple, apart from seized nuts and bolts If I was buying I’d rather buy from someone with an aptitude to do the work themselves-I wouldn’t trust most dealers to check the tyre pressures!! Edit- two years / 20,000 miles with a stamp in the book or every year /4000 or so miles? Well if Porsche say every 20000 miles it’s ok right!! I’d disagree very strongly but some people would prefer that … Edited by and31 on Monday 28th August 00:10

the-norseman said: Hoofy said: Also makes me wonder, could I claim that it's been fully services by myself even if I haven't serviced the car in 3 years? #bangernomics Double post -sorry Edited by and31 on Monday 28th August 00:35

and31 said: Well if Porsche say every 20000 miles it’s ok right!! I’d disagree very strongly but some people would prefer that … Fun fact Mid way through 996 [ or 986 or both I forget ] Porsche changed the service intervals from 12000 or 12 months to 20000 or 2 years. I believe to conform to European regs about the environmental impact of a car throughout its lifespan including servicing. Shortly after this the rumours of bore score started escalating. Some used to think it was caused by the extended service intervals.

ATM said: Fun fact Mid way through 996 [ or 986 or both I forget ] Porsche changed the service intervals from 12000 or 12 months to 20000 or 2 years. I believe to conform to European regs about the environmental impact of a car throughout its lifespan including servicing. Shortly after this the rumours of bore score started escalating. Some used to think it was caused by the extended service intervals. At the very least the 20,000 mile intervals didn’t help.

Many car guys in America have well equipped shops, with lifts and tools. Shops bill by flag hours and in order for a mechanic to make any kind of living, they'll have to work twice as fast as book rate. So on a job that pays 6 flag hours: Can a mechanically inclined owner who has their own shop, tools and lift do a better if they take 12 hours when compared to a professional mechanic who wants to do it in 3 hours? What's so hard to understand?

alabbasi said: Many car guys in America have well equipped shops, with lifts and tools. Shops bill by flag hours and in order for a mechanic to make any kind of living, they'll have to work twice as fast as book rate. So on a job that pays 6 flag hours: Can a mechanically inclined owner who has their own shop, tools and lift do a better if they take 12 hours when compared to a professional mechanic who wants to do it in 3 hours? What's so hard to understand? 12 hours to do what? the biggest item is oil change and that takes half an hour regardless of who’s doing it.professional mechanic? Undoing a sump plug and doing it up again,unscrewing a filter housing and swapping a rubber o ring, smearing it in fresh oil and screwing it back on after filling with oil- Not much else to do on a service, a major -whip the plugs out and fit new ones, air filter, and gearbox oil change.check drive belt? As if they actually do that at an opc.. even if changing the belt that whole lot would take no more than two or three hours with cups of tea on someone’s driveway.no lift required ….

and31 said: 12 hours to do what? the biggest item is oil change…. I don't think anyone needs to give a crap about who does an oil change or whether it's sucked out or drained out. I'm talking about doing anything from timing belts or chains, suspension rebuilds, intake gaskets, head gaskets, you name it. The enthusiasts I know who do their own work will not just do the single job, they tend to replace everything they touch while they're in there. They also tend to document their work very well. So again, what's so baffling about people doing their own work?

alabbasi said: and31 said: 12 hours to do what? the biggest item is oil change…. I don't think anyone needs to give a crap about who does an oil change or whether it's sucked out or drained out. I'm talking about doing anything from timing belts or chains, suspension rebuilds, intake gaskets, head gaskets, you name it. The enthusiasts I know who do their own work will not just do the single job, they tend to replace everything they touch while they're in there. They also tend to document their work very well. So again, what's so baffling about people doing their own work? I think you misunderstood me-I’m all for doing it yourself,and I do so.read my other posts-what’s so baffling ? I thought I made my position very clear, I do most jobs at home, and they are not very difficult-the op asked about “servicing “ and I’d certainly not be put off by an owner that did his his own work as long as it was documented,in fact I’d prefer it-you’d soon get a feel for someone when you speak to them before buying from them.obviously a much newer car 991 onwards I’d say they aren’t bought by the “home mechanic” yet Edited by and31 on Monday 28th August 03:53

and31 said: the op asked about “servicing “ . I think the OP indicated that some owners in the US think that it's better to service their own Porsche rather than take it to a specialist. By service, my assumption is that he means to do their own work and not just change oil. A trained monkey can change oil so a specialist isn't needed for that. His other three bullet points also indicate that there's more to what he's talking about then oil changes and checking washer fluid. As you correctly indicated, a basic service is usually an oil and filter change, plus a visual inspection for whatever else needs repairs. If the OP is only interested in the stamps in the service book for what's on the schedule, and where they came from? There's probably very little value in that. I suspect that what he is trying to say is that he does not trust that some owners can do as good a job as a professional mechanic. I'd argue that they can, but they may not be as efficient at getting it done (in that they won't take 3 hours to get a 6 hour job done). Enthusiast owners who do their own work tend to take pride in their car and their work and if they screw something up. They're more likely to publicize it and not hide it. Edited by alabbasi on Monday 28th August 04:25

and31 said: ATM said: Fun fact Mid way through 996 [ or 986 or both I forget ] Porsche changed the service intervals from 12000 or 12 months to 20000 or 2 years. I believe to conform to European regs about the environmental impact of a car throughout its lifespan including servicing. Shortly after this the rumours of bore score started escalating. Some used to think it was caused by the extended service intervals. At the very least the 20,000 mile intervals didn’t help. Yeah the bore score thing may have distracted. The point being the cars didn't change just the service intervals. You could argue oil technology moved on. I've read some oil analysis type threads and modern oils are much cleverer than the older stuff. I'm doing it again, getting off topic. Same cars just different longer service intervals. So Porsche used to say 12000 or annually then changed their minds. Possibly due to European regs on the environment.

Some data points from my experience of Porsche Dealer service prices Oil Change/minor service = $700 Coolant change = $700 Thermostat = $1400 Major service = $1400 Brakes = $5000 Battery = $2000 Thermostat is a $400 part from Porsche. But, needs a coolant change and some hours. That quickly becomes $1400. I changed the brakes for $500 including buying tools. I see part prices for this have shot up so it would be more but not $5k The best example is the battery. It is a $140 AGM battery from VW. I could not get one on the day so went to Audi and paid $180. The Audi dealer made me sign a waiver saying if my car blew up because I used an Audi part on a Porsche it was not their fault. I pointed out the VW/Audi sticker on my original and he was still not having it. In fact, he lied at first and said he did not have one but I could see it on the shelf behind him! The battery is under the front seat but it is still easy to change. You may hear stories of needing to recode the car after a battery change but that was not my experience.

h0b0 said: ....The battery is under the front seat but it is still easy to change. You may hear stories of needing to recode the car after a battery change but that was not my experience. Registering the battery is needed to let the cars ECU know that a new battery has been installed, the type of battery it is. The reason for this is that: 1) AGM batteries and regular flooded cell batteries have different charging characteristics 2) The charging characteristics also change over time as the battery ages and it will need more current to keep it charged Resetting the statistics prevents a new battery from being over charged by a computer that still thinks that an old battery is installed. Does it make a difference? Yes, Is it enough of a difference to justify spending $2000 at a dealer instead of $200 if you DIY? Probably not, A good scan tool will be able to go into the computer and reset the battery for you.

alabbasi said: h0b0 said: ....The battery is under the front seat but it is still easy to change. You may hear stories of needing to recode the car after a battery change but that was not my experience. Registering the battery is needed to let the cars ECU know that a new battery has been installed, the type of battery it is. The reason for this is that: 1) AGM batteries and regular flooded cell batteries have different charging characteristics 2) The charging characteristics also change over time as the battery ages and it will need more current to keep it charged Resetting the statistics prevents a new battery from being over charged by a computer that still thinks that an old battery is installed. Does it make a difference? Yes, Is it enough of a difference to justify spending $2000 at a dealer instead of $200 if you DIY? Probably not, A good scan tool will be able to go into the computer and reset the battery for you. Good point and acknowledged. I have a good scan tool which I bought because it was the same price as the dealer doing one scan. I accept their tool is many multiples in price and costs a huge amount for subscription costs so mine will not do everything theirs does. But, it does enough to have saved me several hundred/thousand dollars.

I have an Autel MS908 which has so far been able to perform any function that my Mercedes Benz SDS has. It also works on just about any of my other modern cars. I expect that if you spend around 1000 GBP on a decent bi-directional scan tool, Its abilities will exceed yours in the sense that there is no system that the scan tool could not get into that you would want to get into as a DIY'er. Edited by alabbasi on Monday 28th August 16:53

I bought my 1999, 996 manual just under 9 years ago from a very nice fellow PistonHead from here. The car had service history up until his ownership, when he took over the self service route with a folder full of receipts and photos of things carried out. I bought the car partly by his enthusiast approach as well as my judgment of the car in front of me. He also owned a fantastic Lotus Esprit GT3 which was also part of his enthusiasm for cars and did have considerable maintenance knowledge. The car had obviously been maintained fastidiously by himself ( as I have continued in my ownership as an enthusiast). My take on it is a car with full, stamped history tells me that for 1 day each year or so the car is treated to a day of pampering, the other 364 days the owner may not be as dedicated. The enthusiast will treat their pride and joy to 365 days of care because it becomes part of the interest in ownership. Through lack of use,(unfortunately polished more than driven) I will be looking to sell my car very soon and hope to find some like minded enthusiast who will be the next owner. If not, I will continue polishing and hope to find time to drive occasionally

monty999 said: , when he took over the self service route with a folder full of receipts and photos of things carried out. I bought the car partly by his enthusiast approach as well as my judgment of the car in front of me. Spot on. You could use your own judgement when inspecting the car and easily tell if it's been well maintained.

alabbasi said: monty999 said: , when he took over the self service route with a folder full of receipts and photos of things carried out. I bought the car partly by his enthusiast approach as well as my judgment of the car in front of me. Spot on. You could use your own judgement when inspecting the car and easily tell if it's been well maintained. My thoughts too.

I wouldn’t. That’s not to say I think the car hasn’t been maintained correctly. I could turn up at somebody’s house, look at their garage and equipment, and know that they will have done a good job. But when I wanted to sell the car on it would be a ‘story’, and would be a much harder sell.

ATM said: Hoofy said: That's my thinking. I guess for someone who is good on the mechanicals, it could be a way of getting a cheaper car because most people will not touch the car but there will be a gem out there. Snag is when it comes to selling it, you might be waiting ages for a buyer who is as knowledgeable. Thinking about resale is a problem. I try to not do that. If you do you are constantly thinking about what other people want when they buy your car. And yes an enthusiastic home servicer will need to sell to someone else like minded. The Internet helps here. I've seen lots of cars with their own blogs getting lavished with love and attention by their keen DIY owner which when sold acts as a sales tool but would only really be meaningful to another like minded buyer or maybe a novice with some savvy willing to read through it all. The people that spend mega bucks being fleeced by the main dealers because it will maintain the value. £10k spent. £1k realised come sale time because its got a few OPC stamps.

Legacywr said: I wouldn’t. That’s not to say I think the car hasn’t been maintained correctly. I could turn up at somebody’s house, look at their garage and equipment, and know that they will have done a good job. But when I wanted to sell the car on it would be a ‘story’, and would be a much harder sell. If you're worried about depreciation, nothing depreciates faster than a $2000 battery purchased from a main dealer that you could install yourself for $200. If the Porsche service intervals are 20,000 miles, I wouldn't touch one with a 20ft barge pole if I knew it only had it's oil changed every 20,000 miles. I don't go over 7500 miles on synthetic. Edited by alabbasi on Monday 28th August 19:54

A battery doesn’t really count. I guess some people would let their dealer supply them with a battery and tyres, but not anybody with a bit of savvy. I wished I’d let the TVR dealer change the battery on my Sagaris, though…

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155728491665 Just an example I stumbled across Long description but definitely an enthusiastic owner who has done a lot of DIY maintenance This could be a good car to buy If you are worried about losing the description when you get bored and decide to sell then just save his blurb now so you can include it in your description when you sell

He’s had to drop the price £4k…

h0b0 said: Legacywr said: A battery doesn’t really count. I guess some people would let their dealer supply them with a battery and tyres, but not anybody with a bit of savvy. I wished I’d let the TVR dealer change the battery on my Sagaris, though… What does then if the battery requires the seat being removed? Also, my Porsche uses oil at less than an acceptable level. But, I keep an eye on the level and have topped it up in the past. Someone who relies on the dealer would not know to do this. For those not familiar, Porsche even do a bag for your spare oil... ? I do.

Legacywr said: A battery doesn’t really count. I guess some people would let their dealer supply them with a battery and tyres, but not anybody with a bit of savvy. I wished I’d let the TVR dealer change the battery on my Sagaris, though… What does then, if the battery requiring the seat being removed doesn’t count? Also, my Porsche uses oil at less than an acceptable level. But, I keep an eye on the level and have topped it up in the past. Someone who relies on the dealer would not know to do this. For those not familiar, Porsche even do a bag for your spare oil... Edited by h0b0 on Thursday 31st August 23:13

Hoofy said: h0b0 said: Legacywr said: A battery doesn’t really count. I guess some people would let their dealer supply them with a battery and tyres, but not anybody with a bit of savvy. I wished I’d let the TVR dealer change the battery on my Sagaris, though… What does count then if the battery which requires the seat to be removed doesn’t? Also, my Porsche uses oil at less than an acceptable level. But, I keep an eye on the level and have topped it up in the past. Someone who relies on the dealer would not know to do this. For those not familiar, Porsche even do a bag for your spare oil... ? I do. I just edited my post to hopefully make a little more sense. The question was where do we draw the line between reasonable at home, change wiper blades, and best left to the professionals.

Legacywr said: He’s had to drop the price £4k… Not surprised No matter how good a car is and how much you spend there will always be a market price. Most prices are also reducing right now. There are cars like this for sale with 3.9 litre engine conversion - and not selling. I would be worried holding stock right now. 37 grand Porsche 911 996 Carrera 4S Manual – 3.9 Hartech Engine Rebuild https://www.friendsgreenporsche.com/car/porsche-91...

Legacywr said: He’s had to drop the price £4k… I don't know about the previous price but he's asking top dollar for his car. I'm sure the owner has a pile of sweat equity in it, but the equivalent of $32k USD for a 996, with close to 100k miles and will stick out negatively compared to any other cars on the market. By contrast, an 06 (997) Carrera S with 73k miles just sold at auction in Dallas for $34k USD. Dallas is a very hot market for these cars so in my mind, this is also top dollar.. Edited by alabbasi on Friday 1st September 03:40

Legacywr said: He’s had to drop the price £4k… That's the price of 4 or 5 annual services at an OPC. If he's done more than 4 years of self servicing (I haven't read the ad) he will be quids in. I could pretty much give my Cayman away and still be better off than if I had taken it to an OPC for every service. Oil has been changed multiple times per year (I used to do a lot of track days in it), brake fluid changed multiple times per year, pads and discs done multiple times etc It's just a machine and looking after it well does not require a Porsche branded overall and a rubber stamp. They are no harder to service than a ford focus (where a minor service costs £150 at a main dealer) Edited by LennyM1984 on Friday 1st September 08:27

LennyM1984 said: That's the price of 4 or 5 annual services at an OPC. If he's done more than 4 years of self servicing (I haven't read the ad) he will be quids in. I could pretty much give my Cayman away and still be better off than if I had taken it to an OPC for every service. Oil has been changed multiple times per year (I used to do a lot of track days in it), brake fluid changed multiple times per year, pads and discs done multiple times etc It's just a machine and looking after it well does not require a Porsche branded overall and a rubber stamp. They are no harder to service than a ford focus (where a minor service costs £150 at a main dealer) Edited by LennyM1984 on Friday 1st September 08:27 Why do you change these fluids so often?

Legacywr said: Why do you change these fluids so often? I used to do a lot of track days in it (I now go racing instead in a different car). Brake fluid would be bled regularly and I tried to change the oil every 4-5 days (which in hindsight was probably overkill but at £60 a pop it was cheap enough to do as "insurance") . Pads etc obviously wore quicker due to the track use I had no issues with the car whatsoever and it still runs well now (albeit enjoying retirement as a weekend car).

Found another enthusiastic owner car which sounds good Was a vanilla 3.6 carrera 2 but now rebuilt by Hartech to 3.9 https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/15520634

Just saying.........

^^^^ Having worked in thousands of homes in the UK, I can confirm the average UK garage does indeed look as above!